(CR) Sousou no Frieren (Frieren: Beyond Journey's End)

[TURI123456]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

I still think the biggest stretch of this episode is that Lawine and Kanne made it that far. Knowing what the monster is and how it works wouldn't remotely help them in actually fighting those replicas. The only thing you can say is that they got absurdly lucky and all the replicas happened to miss them. In an underground space with limited water there's little chance they'd beat any replica that wasn't the double of an absolute pushover. Of course by saying that it's only a stretch not a statistical impossibility.

Still...knowing what they were in for makes it even more absurd that they didn't immediately run over to team up with Frieren and Fern as soon as the test began. They knew there was a chance for a monster duplicate like Frieren to be waiting for them. But to be fair...Lawine and Kanne aren't exactly geniuses . Making bad decisions and needing absurd luck (like getting dropped into Frieren's party in the first test) kind of seems to be their thing.

The fight itself was good. And in function I'd say throwing the flashback with Serie allowed for a punch for the end of the episode. Although honestly I kind of wish they'd thrown the whole flashback before the fight. The fight itself was pretty quick anyways so it felt even shorter with cutting it up with a huge flashback in the middle (well mostly the fight was through).

I get Serie's point of view anyways. Flamme's dream belonged to Flamme. Not obligated to go and boost up humanity just because Flamme asked. And obviously since she told Frieren what she expected, she knew that Serie wasn't all that interested in jumping on that request. A shot in the dark kind of thing. While Serie has certainly helped out a bit, it's only to the degree of tossing a spell at the elite of the elite. Well in theory it's the elite of the elite. If this is the last test then a few "not quite elite" candidates are still going to get the first class mage title.

In the end the plan was rock solid and more people really would have gotten in the way. Frieren vs Frieren is obviously a draw. One would eventually luck into a victory but it could stay even for a while. Even if Fern didn't get a decisive hit that's fine. Any hit would have thrown the copy off for long enough for Frieren to finish the fight. Of course, ideally Fern delivering the finishing blow is what Frieren was hoping to see. Having her apprentice score that kind of win will be great for her confidence. Obviously be tough for Fern to actually kill Frieren in a straight up 1v1. But ambushes are strong and Fern's attacks are fast. That's enough.

Fair enough also that eventually Zoltraak won't be as effective. Right now it's "new" for Frieren and she's not able to instinctively defend it as quickly. But give it a few centuries and she'll probably cut down or eliminate that lag in her reaction. Not that it's a huge problem anyways. Can't be many mages with Fern's speed and even less with the desire to ambush Frieren with it. Obviously if we are looking big picture a spell that exceeds the speed of Zoltraak will be invented and that will be a reaction issue for Frieren, but that's an issue for the future.

I do kind of wonder now that Frieren's "fatal flaw" has been exposed if Fern will work with her on eliminating it? If it's an issue that plagues many new mages then it should be possible to help her deal with that and make her even more impossible to overcome .
Yeah all they need to do now is open the door and quickly one-shot the monster . And this test and dungeon will be all cleared.

Although I agree that Lawine and Kanne could have done better (if for example, Lawine hadn't let her personal feelings get into her judgment).
I do think that you overjudge those two assuming that you accept the explanation that we get that Lawine's Brother was there before, he probably has a map of this place and he probably gives tips to Lawine something that could help her come to this far without meeting any clones and without getting into trap.
About the part of the water, we don't know how much water there is in this dungeon or how Kanne can use the water that there is there.
And about the part that they are incompetent, they are significantly weaker when we compare them to Denken or Methode but we need to be fair and remember that those two are at the top of the people that take this test (it already be said that Denken is at the same level as "First-Class Mage" and for what it seems (at least to me) Methode is more or less at the same level of capability as him), most of the tested that normally take the test are not at the same level of capability as those two. Fern, Denken, and Methode are at the top of the people that are getting tested (not even mention Frieren who they find far beyond them) so I think that you kind of overjudge and unfair about Lawine and Kanne for not being able to fight in the same level as those people.
More than this out of Fern who looks around the same age as Lawine and Kanne all of the people there seem to be older by a few years than those two.


By the way something that we all forget about is the fact that there is a clone of Fern that needs to be there and not like the clones of Denken or Methode, the group can't locate this clone.

[ryllharu]

Originally Posted by TURI123456

By the way something that we all forget about is the fact that there is a clone of Fern that needs to be there and not like the clones of Denken or Methode, the group can't locate this clone.

The guy who ran off first and ruined Denken's plan for cooperation from the beginning was shown last episode to be cowering in complete terror behind a short pillar in a room with shallow water.

That's where I would assume the Fern clone is. We know where the other four super threatening mage clones are or were (Frieren's, Wirbel's, Ubel's, and Sense's).

And before anyone else goes pedantic in their reply, yes, everyone is close to being a first class mage and are all equally scary, but five are very clearly on another level in terms of combat effectiveness.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Lawine has prior knowledge of the dungeon layout from her brothers. Richter commented that's it's no wonder why she was able to make it this far.

This doesn't make it any less of a dumb plot contrivance. The dungeon is well known for being exceptionally deadly, but not only did her brother go on an expedition nearly to the bottom, he also was one of the few survivors and relayed the majority of its layout and risks to Lawine who arrived with perfect timing to convey that to the current group.

[TURI123456]

Originally Posted by ryllharu

The guy who ran off first and ruined Denken's plan for cooperation from the beginning was shown last episode to be cowering in complete terror behind a short pillar in a room with shallow water.

That's where I would assume the Fern clone is. We know where the other four super threatening mage clones are or were (Frieren's, Wirbel's, Ubel's, and Sense's).

And before anyone else goes pedantic in their reply, yes, everyone is close to being a first class mage and are all equally scary, but five are very clearly on another level in terms of combat effectiveness.



This doesn't make it any less of a dumb plot contrivance. The dungeon is well known for being exceptionally deadly, but not only did her brother go on an expedition nearly to the bottom, he also was one of the few survivors and relayed the majority of its layout and risks to Lawine who arrived with perfect timing to convey that to the current group.

The clones are moving they do not stay in the same place. So even if Fern's clone starts there it is supposed to move to the room where the group is with the other clones.

[ryllharu]

Originally Posted by TURI123456

The clones are moving they do not stay in the same place. So even if Fern's clone starts there it is supposed to move to the room where the group is with the other clones.

They move if they kill someone (or make them flee with the golem bottles), to pursue someone, or if there are a bunch of people threatening the otherwise defenseless summoning object.

But it will stay to keep a mage trapped like we see with Ubel and clone guy, as well as the other trio fighting themselves.

Whoever has obnoxious overconfident guy trapped has no reason to leave until he's dead or escaped. My assumption is that it is Fern's clone. Both because it is funny (terrifying Fern is always solid gag), and because it avoids some other plot complications due to her strength, ability to hide herself better, and general ruthlessness.

[TURI123456]

Originally Posted by ryllharu

They move if they kill someone (or make them flee with the golem bottles), to pursue someone, or if there are a bunch of people threatening the otherwise defenseless summoning object.

But it will stay to keep a mage trapped like we see with Ubel and clone guy, as well as the other trio fighting themselves.

Whoever has obnoxious overconfident guy trapped has no reason to leave until he's dead or escaped. My assumption is that it is Fern's clone. Both because it is funny (terrifying Fern is always solid gag), and because it avoids some other plot complications due to her strength, ability to hide herself better, and general ruthlessness.

The clone of Ubel acts in the way that it acts because of Ubel's personality and not by a function of the clone itself.
So this clone is not an example of how the clones act.

[Decel]

I might add that we never saw the clones of Methode, Denken, Richter, that girl that got trapped and golem'ed out, the solo guy, and of Edel and her group, so we don't know if they have or haven't been defeated.

That's a lot of potential clones to gather in one spot.

From my guess, we'll never see the third trial/test before the series end. It's like a seasonal cliffhanger.

[ChronoReverse]

Originally Posted by ryllharu

This doesn't make it any less of a dumb plot contrivance. The dungeon is well known for being exceptionally deadly, but not only did her brother go on an expedition nearly to the bottom, he also was one of the few survivors and relayed the majority of its layout and risks to Lawine who arrived with perfect timing to convey that to the current group.

That's not a plot contrivance; the plot doesn't rely on it at all in the first place and it's not even necessary information for the main group considering they have both Frieren and Denken who had already surmised most of what the duo narrated.

And I say narrated because the actual contrivance is an infodump to make sure the watchers know the situation.

And it seems you needed that infodump and need to look at it again. The infodump neatly reiterates why the dungeon was well-known to be deadly and yet didn't seem particularly so in the previous episodes even including the clones.

[Nachtwandler]

Originally Posted by Decel

I might add that we never saw the clones of Methode, Denken, Richter, that girl that got trapped and golem'ed out, the solo guy, and of Edel and her group, so we don't know if they have or haven't been defeated.

That's a lot of potential clones to gather in one spot.

From my guess, we'll never see the third trial/test before the series end. It's like a seasonal cliffhanger.

Methode clone was among the ones gathering in chamber our guys will defend while Frieren and fern fioght the guardian.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by ryllharu

This doesn't make it any less of a dumb plot contrivance. The dungeon is well known for being exceptionally deadly, but not only did her brother go on an expedition nearly to the bottom,

It's deadly because of the clones. If not for them, reaching the bottom is perfectly doable, as evident by how many of them are there right now.

Originally Posted by ryllharu

he also was one of the few survivors and relayed the majority of its layout and risks to Lawine who arrived with perfect timing to convey that to the current group.

Richter wanted that information sooner. Had Lawine gotten there earlier, they could have avoided that futile attempt against Frieren's clone, and Frieren wouldn't have had to sit there as long to discuss strategy.

I'll also note that getting out of the dungeon alive is not the same as clearing it.
Even putting aside Sense using this dungeon multiple times in the past and Lernen's golems, everyone here could just turn back towards the exit and they would have accomplished the same thing as Lawine's brother.

[TURI123456]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

It's deadly because of the clones. If not for them, reaching the bottom is perfectly doable, as evident by how many of them are there right now.



Richter wanted that information sooner. Had Lawine gotten there earlier, they could have avoided that futile attempt against Frieren's clone, and Frieren wouldn't have had to sit there as long to discuss strategy.

I'll also note that getting out of the dungeon alive is not the same as clearing it.
Even putting aside Sense using this dungeon multiple times in the past and Lernen's golems, everyone here could just turn back towards the exit and they would have accomplished the same thing as Lawine's brother.

You are right but I think that you also don't give enough credit to Lawine and the party. They didn't only make it through and return, but they were doing this when the clones were in the same room as the tested group right are right now and they also managed to get a lot of information about what created those clones and also get information about the clones themself and also when most (or even all) of the party of her brother get through this, most of the tested are don't know that much.

It's more like Lawine didn't want to go with Denken's group because Richter was part of this group (although I don't understand why she didn't work with Fern and Frieren except for her pride), and she still has something against him (although she mentions a logical reason. I think it is more like her pride and a personal dislike for Richter because of the fight that they had before which made her not share this information and don't work with someone else except Kanne).

[magnuskn]

Gotta say, at the very end of the fight, when Fern got the clone, the music that started up strongly reminded me of The Witcher 3. Sadly it was only a shot insert.

[relentlessflame]

I did think that, on the one hand, it was kind of convenient that people kept showing up to fill in the knowledge gaps (and repeatedly, so it was clearly on purpose), but really the main point that this proved is that they would have been way better off from the get-go to work together, because each one of them brings a unique perspective that will ultimately be important in the end (because this is the classic RPG trope of "fighting yourself"). Even when apart, they're all smart people so their thinking is on the same wavelength, and the one guy risks his life to tell the rest of the group that the clones in fact have no mind, knowing they'd need to know that. So it's like... in the end they're going to come together, but of course they had to set them up in the first test to be mistrustful of each other.

I suppose the whole barbaric aspect of the test does likely connect to the fact that Serie is in charge. But given that Flamme wanted Serie to be in charge of it (and she eventually relented), I suppose she must have thought this approach would be beneficial too. Maybe they're going to argue that the point of all this is that demons are master manipulators, so both being able to work together but also being suspicious of others are necessary in equal measure. But still, I truly question whether any of this is the right way to go about it. To me, it still feels like mostly a waste of time for Frieren and Fern, who are just basically auditing this test like it doesn't really matter (because it really doesn't; they're way better than all of them, and they're basically "entertaining" the idea that they need some sort pass to move forward). And I'm still a bit worried how they're going to transition from what is essentially a big detour back to the main journey (though I suppose we'll have to wait for a future season to find out).

I am looking forward to the seemingly-foreshadowed end of this arc when Frieren meets Serie and lets her know "hey, remember 1,000 years ago you said it'd be a human mage who would ultimately kill me? Guess what, here she is; Fern's my apprentice! Isn't that great?!"

In the end, the way that Frieren "raised" Fern is a complete contrast to the way Serie is trying to develop people (by putting them through a gauntlet and only the strongest will survive), but I guess we'll see if there's room for self-reflection on Serie's side at the end. (Perhaps it'll take her a few more decades/centuries to reflect on it and relent...)

[Liddo-kun]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I giggled at Lawine and Kanne having almost a full blown WWE wrestling match in the background during the planning session.

And, yeah, young Flamme was cute as heck.

since Lawine is mostly winning the wrestling.. she probably put some STR into her stats, while Kanne is almost a pure INT build. In my early days of playing Raganrok Online, I put 10 STR even on mage class, to help a little with carrying items. lol

late reply. I was busy with some gacha games.

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I did think that, on the one hand, it was kind of convenient that people kept showing up to fill in the knowledge gaps (and repeatedly, so it was clearly on purpose), but really the main point that this proved is that they would have been way better off from the get-go to work together, because each one of them brings a unique perspective that will ultimately be important in the end (because this is the classic RPG trope of "fighting yourself"). Even when apart, they're all smart people so their thinking is on the same wavelength, and the one guy risks his life to tell the rest of the group that the clones in fact have no mind, knowing they'd need to know that. So it's like... in the end they're going to come together, but of course they had to set them up in the first test to be mistrustful of each other.

I suppose the whole barbaric aspect of the test does likely connect to the fact that Serie is in charge. But given that Flamme wanted Serie to be in charge of it (and she eventually relented), I suppose she must have thought this approach would be beneficial too. Maybe they're going to argue that the point of all this is that demons are master manipulators, so both being able to work together but also being suspicious of others are necessary in equal measure. But still, I truly question whether any of this is the right way to go about it. To me, it still feels like mostly a waste of time for Frieren and Fern, who are just basically auditing this test like it doesn't really matter (because it really doesn't; they're way better than all of them, and they're basically "entertaining" the idea that they need some sort pass to move forward). And I'm still a bit worried how they're going to transition from what is essentially a big detour back to the main journey (though I suppose we'll have to wait for a future season to find out).

I am looking forward to the seemingly-foreshadowed end of this arc when Frieren meets Serie and lets her know "hey, remember 1,000 years ago you said it'd be a human mage who would ultimately kill me? Guess what, here she is; Fern's my apprentice! Isn't that great?!"

In the end, the way that Frieren "raised" Fern is a complete contrast to the way Serie is trying to develop people (by putting them through a gauntlet and only the strongest will survive), but I guess we'll see if there's room for self-reflection on Serie's side at the end. (Perhaps it'll take her a few more decades/centuries to reflect on it and relent...)

I guess in a way that scene of Lawine being doted on by her older brothers was (technically?) foreshadowing because it showed they were military officials and as such would have had access to this dungeon.

At least as much as it feels like sidetracking the only reason they're even participating in the test was to get a certification that would let them continue on their journey in a more straightforward fashion.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

But given that Flamme wanted Serie to be in charge of it (and she eventually relented),

Flamme was in charge of the empire's mages. Serie technically never took over Flamme's work - she just created her own organization a thousand years later and is doing her own thing.

Perhaps you could say that Serie took Flamme's place symbolically as the leader of mankind's magic, but they technically lead two different organizations.

[Kazu-kun]

That could be just a change in the geopolitical landscape. Going from the map that was shown when Serie was talking to Frieren, 1000 years ago the Empire controlled most of the continent. But right now, in the present time, it doesn't seem to be that way anymore. The Empire territory is up North. This means the rest of the continent suffered a shift in power, and now the majority of the continent is probably governed by someone else or fragmented into different smaller kingdoms.

Serie's organization is called the Continental magic association, which means it tries to encompass the whole continent, at least symbolically (it's hard to figure out how much authority it actually has across the continent). So in that sense, Serie is continuing Flamme's work, since Flamme wanted the whole world to learn magic, not just the Empire. She probably started with the Empire simply because back then the Empire was the main player in the world.

[TURI123456]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Flamme was in charge of the empire's mages. Serie technically never took over Flamme's work - she just created her own organization a thousand years later and is doing her own thing.

Perhaps you could say that Serie took Flamme's place symbolically as the leader of mankind's magic, but they technically lead two different organizations.

I'm pretty sure Flamme knows that Serie will accept her request only after a few hundred years will pass and still do it in her own way.

By the way, only I think that Serie refused Flamme's request because of fear?

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Serie's organization is called the Continental magic association, which means it tries to encompass the whole continent, at least symbolically (it's hard to figure out how much authority it actually has across the continent). So in that sense, Serie is continuing Flamme's work, since Flamme wanted the whole world to learn magic, not just the Empire. She probably started with the Empire simply because back then the Empire was the main player in the world.

Flamme's dream was for all mankind to be able to use magic. Serie is doing exactly the opposite: she's gatekeeping hard so only people with talent get taught, and as a result the number of mages has dramatically decreased under her management. Frieren said she used to see mages in every town and was shocked there are only 2000 of them around anymore. Serie is actively destroying Flamme's work, because no matter how much she may have loved her, she ultimately completely disagrees with her philosophy that magic should be shared with everyone.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Flamme's dream was for all mankind to be able to use magic. Serie is doing exactly the opposite: she's gatekeeping hard so only people with talent get taught

This isn't true. This is the first class mage exam but there are five classes as far as we know. So Serie's not gate-keeping anything. Magic is accessible to anyone according to their level. You're not good enough to be a first class? That's cool, you can be second class or third class. You're total shit and can't even get to third class? That's cool too because there is fourth and fifth class as well. Everyone gets to study magic. No one is left behind in this system.

It's true there are less mages than when the Demon Lord was alive, but there is no evidence that Serie and her organization is to blame for this.

[Metaneo]

Probably the reason there are less Mages in the current era is because it's peaceful, there would be more active mages during times of war.