2006-10-10, 15:06
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Link #62 |
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Certified Organic
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I think a civil war in iraq can be prevented if the US takes back complete military control until a real goverment has been established.
look at this sadr city B.S. the goverment is just letting some religious fanatic have his own army and control a large city on his own. it is believed most of the mass killings are done by these people who leave the city, kill, and come back knowing the iraq army will not follow them and the US army will not enter. and even if their army members are caught, they are released the next day anyway. that is B.S. letting these people go but keeping the grocery store clerk in jail for 4 years on suspicion of terrorism charges. but another truth that the mass public has failed to realize is that most of the iraq people hate each other and are killing themselves because there is no goverment to stop them. you hear about small communties kidnapping raping and killing women of a different sect community. then the victim's family goes back and does the same for revenge. this is not a militia or terrorist group, its just your average person exploiting the weaker people around him. before any progress can be made a strong goverment must be formed where the people either respect the authorities or fear severe punishment for committing crimes. until this goverment is formed the US should protect the peace since we did remove the former goverment after all. another option that has been coming up lately is should iraq be broken up into three smaller countries? the only bad side with this is that once we leave most likely a large sect war will be provoked or start anyway. and getting people to move around is going to have huge consequences and many bad people will exploit the situation. case in point, the problem in afghanistan. the US destroyed most of the taliban and then immediately pulled out, and then what happened? now we have this tit for tat going on for many years and the people still have not really been freed. they cant go to school without being killed, women cant express their opinions in public etc etc. is life better now than when the taliban was in control? who's to say, what good is expressing your freedom if some crazy man can shoot you for it and not get arrested in the middle of a crowded street. |
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2006-10-10, 15:24
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Link #63 | |
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Rawr
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Canada
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Iraq is a big fat mess and will probably fragment after a civil war. Israel is supported by the US because of the powerful Jewish lobby in the US. Frankly there are far more rich and powerful Jews in the US than rich and powerful Muslims. Not to mention Israel is a free democracy. It would look pretty bad if the US sided with a dictatorship over a democracy. The reason the US is hated by other countries is because of its foreign policy. Other countries see the US as imperialists and meddlers involving themselves in the interal affairs of others when and only if it benefits them. Except maybe in the case of fundamentals Islamists, other countries do not hate the US because of its culture of it culture or fast food. It there is a stereotype of Americans being decadent fat slobs with a preference for cowboy movies, thats because on average it is true when compared to other countries. I recently read that 60% of Americans are overweight and 30% are obese. As for everyone getting nukes and getting rid of them together, being a cynic I would assume that we would blow ourselves up before reaching a concensus. |
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2006-10-10, 15:54
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Link #64 | ||
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Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 43
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Honestly, did you believe a US led war could have brought democracy or peace into this region? This whole war project was/is a waste of resources and human lifes. And if you blame "this sadr city B.S.", you indirectly blame the whole post war politics (which are a direct result of the war... but this came completely out of the blue, nobody could ever imagine that, when the war started... to fight for the democratic rights of the iraqis who didn't have a chance to begin with). Imo it doesn't matter if the US takes back complete military control sooner or later. There will be a civil war. And then there will be another dictatorship like regime. The only question is, how many US soldiers are going to die before the US government comes to the conclusion, that a democracy that is supported by a minority will only survive if it becomes another dictatorship. Honestly, your arguments sound like an attempt to find excuses for the misinterpretation that led to this disaster. Quote:
There is no money, no security, no hope. There are billions of dollars for multiple wars in the world. But nobody cares to invest gravely into building up a stable independent state with a working economy, education and self defense force. Thats imo the real problem. Trying to solve multiple problems at once, and thereby doing non of the jobs right (because there aren't enough resources to solve multiple problems).
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2006-10-10, 19:44
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Link #65 | ||
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cho~ kakkoii
 Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 3rd Planet
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As for Iran, I don't think even diplomacy will work. US's only hope to turn things around is that it will produce the most spectacular President ever in the US history (hopefully, in the coming decade) who will make everything better for his/her country. Like Kamui, I also want to move off-planet, preferfebaly somewhere with the access of internet so I could still maintain my anime watching. Unfortunately, it seems the latest schedule for a voyage to Mars is going to be attempted no sooner than the year 2020. Even then, the ride could be very expensive. P.S. This is an article that I read today which some of you might find interesting, including Sazelyt. ^_^
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2006-10-10, 20:07
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Link #66 |
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Certified Organic
Join Date: Dec 2005
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as for meddling, lets look back to world war II. do you think france and britain were upset that the US was meddling in their war in europe? on the contrary they were very upset that the US got involved so late in the campaign.
it all has to deal with perspective. yes the US is the strongest world power and when we get involved it changes a country completely. that brings alot of hatered and criticism. alot of people ask what right do we have to interfere. but its not like the people we go to war with are nice saints. most of them have done really bad stuff for us to get involved. after the war with germany, did you know that the germans wanted to surrender to the US and not the russians? they stalled the complete surrender to the allies for 1 day so that as many people as possible could leave the berlin area and surreneder to the western nations instead of Russia. At that time our army general leader decided not to get involved, but do you believe that was a good decision? I am sure you know how the russians looted and pillaged berlin after they took control and then made it part of their communist party. people who are to recieve power after a war promise alot of things, but most likely they are not going to come through and fulfill them. this seems to be the current case in iraq also. this is why instead of letting random would be dictators be installed, the first government should be set in place with supervision. that is why i think the US should make fix this mess we have made. the iraq people do hate us, but have we given them reason to? i would say yes, as of right now. the US needs to help them make a solid government, improve their daily lives, build schools and hospitals, and if those people still want to hate us, so be it, thats between them and god. trying to change the people's culture is an issue that cannot be overcome. nor should it be. however, when that culture allows violent crimes to be commited because of their religion, that must be stopped even if it means appearing to oppress their rights. we all know what is right and wrong in our hearts. using the name of religion to do bad things cannot be tolerated regardless of culture. sure, the US is looking out for it's own interests, but that is not all. does no one remeber the gulf war? do you think the people of kuwait were complaining that we stopped the middle east nations from killing all of them and taking their oil fields? yes we messed up vietnam and now we are messing up afghanistan and iraq, but on the whole we did good other places like south korea and south america. however, the US has a very bad habit of not cleaning up their messes. If we are going to start something it needs to be finished. now on afghanistan i see no reason for this huge mess. WTF have we been doing for almost, what, six years now? how is it that kids get shot for going to school? why has no security been installed since this is a known issue. why is their no police force or army yet? this is not like iraq where their neighbors are killing each other. only a few extremists or taliban reminants are causing problems in afghanistan. i dont see why there is not a much larger reconstruction effort. |
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2006-10-10, 20:41
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Link #67 |
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Rawr
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Canada
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I think its a bogus argument citing WWII as an example of how the US is not a meddler in foreign affairs. Up to the point of the Pearl Harbor attack forcing the US to join the war, the US was isolationist and not involving themselves in alot of international settings. I honestly believe that if Japan had not bombed Pearl Harbor in order to make a grab for the Philipines then the US would have either never gotten into the fight or would have fought much much later. The Germans would not surrender to Russia because Hitler stabbed Stalin in the back. Would you surrender to people whose families and countrymen you have slaughtered or some foreign power whose own country wasn't directly involved in the conflict? It does not necessarily mean that the Germans thought the Americans were "better".
The bad US image around the world only started much later during the cold war since as the front for the western world they had troops stationed everywhere and omnipresent in international politics. I personally think that the US bashing has only recently been badly tarnished with the invasion of Iraq. Previously, they were only seen as meddlers. Annoying, but not necessarily a danger. Now, they are seen as a direct threat to many countries which fear US intervention. I do think that jealously amongst other countries of US prosperity undboutly plays a role in the active US bashing. I am in Canada and I don't hate the US and I don't blame the US for looking after its own interests. There are many here who do think of the US pretty negatively , but I think thats just because there are many left wing ideologues in this country who are blind to real world situations. (Like those morons who want to provide free heroin to addicts). The world would be a better place if everyone acted out of altruism, but that is contrary to human nature. The US masses have simply got to dig pull their heads out of the sand and hold their leadership for their incompetence |
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2006-10-10, 21:09
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Link #68 | ||
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Eternal Dreamer
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Caladan
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2006-10-10, 21:37
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Link #69 | ||
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Always impatient
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Lemme add a couple lambastings and uneasy comments here: the North Korea mess yet again proved how silly the basic tenet of "war on terror" is, alongside with mayhems, quagmire and failed governments in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Neocon finally have succeeded in turning the clock back to the Cold War period and now we are talking spreading of WMD all over the world. Quote:
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2006-10-10, 22:08
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Link #70 | ||
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Μ ε r c ü r υ
Join Date: Jun 2004
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The first step is: "We cannot accept and allow North Korea to obtain nuclear weapons. " The second step is: "We cannot overlook the possibility of North Korea selling nuclear weapons and technology to other countries and organizations." I wonder what the third step will be: i.e., "We cannot allow the illegal organizations or evil axis countries to use nuclear weapons. Ooops, when did they obtain those weapons???..." Quote:
Thanks again to the Bush administration, the democratic elections in Phalestine put Hamas in a governing position, the highly dangerous and religious groups in other Middle Eastern countries started to gain more power (e.g., Egypt, Saudi Arabia), El Kaide has established its second unofficial branch in Iraq, Iraq is currently on the verge of separation that would result in two other (for US) enemy-states, and one of them is bounded to establish strong relations to Iran, the promised democracy will stay as promised and nothing more. |
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2006-10-10, 23:17
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Link #71 | ||||||||||
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Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 43
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And the late intervention wasn't such a bad thing. At least germans were more comfortable with being defeated by the US than any other allied forces (they were especially frigthend because of the russian forces). Quote:
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Afghanistan would have been a far more promising country to be build up again. If all the resources went in there (I don't mean too much warfare in that context, but other form of help). Quote:
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And sane people did not like the idea to invade irak, but stupid G.W.B. wanted to to make a show of or something (I don't buy his reasoning of freeing people, because he couldn't care less in other places). Quote:
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I conclude it basically the same way I conclude that the sun is a very hot stellar object. I am almost 100% convinced of it.
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Last edited by Jinto; 2006-10-11 at 07:25. |
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2006-10-11, 11:19
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Link #73 |
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i'm psychic.god says hi.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: tucson arizona
Age: 32
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your right man!
they are asking for it. however our num nut of a president wants to wait till they shoot to actually do any thing.
he believes that diplomacy should be more important than the defence of our allies. 
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2006-10-11, 11:43
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Link #74 |
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1000 times better
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Surrounded by Mistery (cool isn't?)
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Its important to not desesperate. Even if Korea has the intentions to go war, its important to exchange reasons and try to make a deal.
You know, going to war its the last resource, when everything else failed. |
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2006-10-11, 12:02
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Link #75 |
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Gone for Good
Join Date: Apr 2004
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As there are plenty of discussions about the viewpoints from the West, let's have a look at China in this "crisis".
There is a lot of anger within China. China has gone all out to help North Korea all these years, supplying them with food and aid when everyone else has sanctioned them, and even inviting them to the so-called Six Party Talks in order to hold discussions, however slow and rhetoric, over this crisis. Yet time and again Kim Jong-Il has taken China's support for granted, they have pushed their luck too far. It's only a matter of time before China runs out of patience and initiates a regime change of their own over NK and install a more easy-to-control puppet regime that'll last for at least one or two decades. |
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2006-10-11, 12:36
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Link #76 |
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i'm psychic.god says hi.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: tucson arizona
Age: 32
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this is true.
i think that you are rite korea needs to be able to support itself . i say we should enter korea but just to get rid of there nukes not to conquer them. thats what i origanally ment in my last statement.
also i think that we should assist the citizens of korea. so that the citezens might try to over throw there current goverment for a more stable goverment. im not saying that we should use them just let them see that there goverment is kind of flawed and need to change it to a goverment to what better suit them not the rest of world. 
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2006-10-11, 12:40
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Link #77 | |
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Μ ε r c ü r υ
Join Date: Jun 2004
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And since there is no oil involved and there is also the threat of nukes, US won't be that courageous this time to enter the fight alone. And, that will forcefully remind Bush administration that fighting is not the only solution. |
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2006-10-11, 12:54
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Link #79 | ||
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Μ ε r c ü r υ
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Also, what you are suggesting has caused the deaths of a lot of people around the world (middle east, south america, etc.)? I guess this shows that the Americans still do not care much about the deaths or interferences in other parts of the world (despite the birth of El Kaide, growth of hatred towards US). Quote:
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