Lacus & pacifism: Goals and Intentions

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by OmegaZEROCustom

True, looking at it that way, it is more likely that the units were built as they were from the start versus being upgraded 2 year old plans. The thing is, if they somehow got all these new ZAFT parts, where was the Hyper Deuterion reactor?

Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice are now listed as having Hyper Deuterion engines.

Originally Posted by OmegaZEROCustom

True, and not to turn this into any sort of childish bickering of any sort, but doesn't the same ring true for yourself? Nothing directly supports that Terminal didn't have something to do with the SF and IJ. We know someone got Lacus the info about the DOM's. I'm not saying Terminal supplied the weapons themselves, but simply the information. Kind of like those eBay auctions where people sell the INFO on how to get a PS3.

The idea of the burden of proof is fairly straightforward: the person trying to make a claim is responsible for supplying evidence for that claim. Anyone trying to refute that claim does not have to disprove said claim. For example, if I were to claim that pigs can fly, then I should provide evidence for it. If you wanted to refute it, you don't have to come up with evidence that disproves the existence of flying pigs - all you have to do is to point out that there's a lack of evidence indicating they exist. Part of the reason for this is because it's impossible to prove a negative.

Lacus is much more likely to have gotten the DOMs through her own apparatus than through Terminal. As I've said before, Terminal has never been shown to be an arms dealer. Dealing in military secrets is the same as arms dealing. In addition, plans for top secret mobile suits can hardly be compared to items on eBay.

Originally Posted by OmegaZEROCustom

True. I've been trying to apply some real world timing to a fantasy world. While it might take years to devlop a new fighter craft and weaponry, but not so in SEED...I gotta remember that.

It's not just Seed, it's Gundam shows in general. Possibly the most unrealistic thing about Mobile Suit Gundam is the "one" in One-Year War.

Originally Posted by OmegaZEROCustom

But what I'm saying in regards to the DRAGOONs is that if the Super DRAGOONs work on the same principle for the hardware side of things, and the new system is simply a new function of the OS, then I can't see any good reason why the Super DRAGOONs would be that drastic of an upgrade.

There's nothing simple about trying to introduce untested technology. This is especially true when it's done on designs that only work on paper.

Originally Posted by OmegaZEROCustom

You mention all these untested technologies. Even on a new suit, wouldn't all these be too difficult for things to go smoothly?

That's it exactly. The very reason why engineers build prototypes in the first place is because they're trying to test new technology to be usefully produced. There's only so much that can be done with plans or computer modeling.

Originally Posted by OmegaZEROCustom

The Super DRAGOONs, while not explicitly stated, have been tested to some capacity on the Chaos.

Nope. Chaos is not listed as having Super DRAGOONs. If they're not called Super DRAGOONs, then they probably work differently.

Originally Posted by OmegaZEROCustom

Couple that with the fact that the Legend had them prior to the SF's launch, and if a ZAFT insider had access to combat and/or devlopment data, then the SF could have launched with those systems being as close to tested as possible.

That still doesn't work since there's no reason to believe that Lacus can monitor the details on supposedly top secret mobile suit tests. Besides, the question is about fitting an untested technology on Strike Freedom. Just knowing that it can be done (and done differently) on a different mobile suit isn't going to help that much.

[Demongod86]

About Freedom/Justice II being developed by ZAFT--I doubt ZAFT ever got any real data from their performances--Lacus handed Kira his "sword" wrapped in all that is pink and soft and good, and mind-controlled ( ) Athrun into jacking the Justice...so the only people that actually HAD the true real-world operating capacities of Freedom and Justice was the Clyne Faction. So the only ones that would be able to effectively upgrade those suits would be those that oversaw the real models--that is, the Eternal and Archangel crews.

It's similar to as to why the Destiny and Legend were produced by ZAFT--since ZAFT actually had the data of those suits' predecessors, Impulse and Providence, respectively...actually, providence I'm not sure about, and I believe Destiny was commissioned before Impulse (but very well could have been modified from Impulse data). I'm sure that if the Clyne Faction had stolen SF/IJ, why did they stop there? Why not just go for Destiny and Legend while we're at it and go for overkill? The real answer is that SF/IJ were not simply "built off of observed performance". Odds are, Lacus (or someone very close to her) had them conceptualized the moment the Valentine war ended (as Kira nearly DIED vs. providence, and Justice was gone). And they were known to be tried and true since their respective aces proved that those two suits alone with meteor alone could decimate entire groups.

Think of it--it would be MUCH more cost-efficient to build numerous high-quality suits if the level of the pilots--those that could truly bring out the most potential of the suits--was unknown. The Clyne faction knew that Freedom and Justice had perfect pilots suited for them, and so it was better to go for two suits of nigh-unimaginable power than it was to go for a squadron of elite units like more DOMs.

Put a pilot of lower capability in the SF or IJ and they'd get trashed in a heartbeat like the fiasco that befell ZAFT's gundams in the final battle. That and SF outclassed Legend by no small margins in maneuverability, and Inf. Justice had far better capabilities than Destiny in every single field except against massive targets when Meteor was out of use and ranged weaponry.

[Eidolon Sniper]

Oh damn. Hit some random button and have to do it all over again....

Originally Posted by 4Tran

But that's not pacifism. Lots of non-pacifists can talk about wanting peace and the like.

Yet they could not be said preaching something that goes against their very beliefes into why they dhould end all things this way or that. I mean, if they were, then it's better that they could never even have bothered trying to, as it would only make them kid themselves for being hypocrites.

That's untrue. Lacus' speeches simply point out that peace is preferable to war, and that war is not the proper way to decide complex issues. This isn't what pacifists are about at all - they're the ones who state that there's no reason to fight. That's what disavowing the use of violence and war means.

But yet she deals war on the same people and arguing at the same time that war is NOT the way to end all these complex issues? She was seen telling all soldiers to stop fighting/do you know what you're fighting for?/etc. while at it, too...

The orphanage was never part of Orb. Remember that it's near where Aegis and Strike were destroyed; these islands were pointedly outside of Orb jurisdiction. As I stated earlier, she didn't move to Orb itself until this abode was first destroyed.

And so Athrun made his cross island/country drive across seven seas in order to get to that orphanage... And if it wasn't part of Orb jurisdiction, why would Cagalli go out of her own way to protect them both? If that were the case, then Cagalli should also be charged with trying to serve her own interests above Orb's.

Besides, how could even Shinn knew where the Onogoro Memorial was and both Kira and Lacus were there? Remember that they simply walked right back into the orphanage after they met Shinn. Shinn was off duty at that time and decided to visit the Memorial and emo about his sister.

Now you're being silly. Kira has always been an Orb citizen. Why would he have anything to fear from Orb for defecting from the EA? This assertion doesn't make even the slightest sense. Lacus didn't have anything to fear from the postwar PLANT government either - her father's ally, Eileen Canaver, conducted a coup, and took power. Durandal didn't enter the picture until some time later.

Yes, but Kira decided to be part of the EA, or have you forgotten about that? His MIA could leave his membership to be desired, but still the fact remains thathe was oncepart of the EA and decided to join the Clyne Faction that was instrumental to their downfall...Kira now has every reason to fear for his life. As for Lacus, she only succeeded in killing of Zala but not his supporters, who would now want revenge for what she did that stripped them off of their power. Lacus then has every reason to fear for her life. And Dullindal...he was part of Mendel, and in the last 2 years he would be probably interested in Lacus and all she did in order to regain the peace in the last war, and could probably be planning how to use her image in order to take over the entire world while at it too.

Nothing wrong? That doesn't make any sense - it's sort of unethical to assassinate people just because you feel that they have more influence than you do. It might not be unexpected of Durandal, but that's hardly the same thing.

Well, they were the ones who immediately knew it was Dullindal all along...

"Keen on trying to stop the war"! Are you trying to kid me? The war was the very best thing that could have happened for him. Lacus' influence on the soldiers was only a minor reason for using Meer - it wasn't as if he was in any danger of losing the war. What he really needed was for someone to give him enough credibility to implement the Destiny Plan.

Wow, we have had no idea of the Destiny Plan whatsoever until the last episodes of Destiny, where the writer decided to make Dully evilly complete and hastily added that so Lacus would have more reason to kick him off his delusions. It's easy to connect point A to point B just because he goes against all Lacus sama's wishes. Is it because he's a stereotype (knowing more than the usual in case of goings on, etc.) that would make him such an unfortunate man? If that were the case, then Lacus (showing these very same signs as well) should be called a villain...

While I find the idea of an evil Lacus aesthetically pleasing, I'd still like to know what's your basis for asserting this.

See my above post for this.

I'm not sure what your point is here. Orb allied with the EA and declared war on PLANT. This is obviously not a neutral act, but then again, I never argued that it was. In fact, I've stressed that it was the very opposite. If you really want to be technical about it, it was PLANT that actually struck at Orb first.

SEED or Destiny? In SEED I couldn't recall how Orb allied with the EA (Heliopolis thing excluded); if ever it was EA that struck Orb first. In Destiny, since Orb was now with the EA, the Minerva was forced to get out of the dock and were stuck right in the middle between EA and Orb off Orb's territorial waters. I think you mixed SEED and Destiny up in this.

It was in Durandal's interest in instigating another war (at the timing of his choice), and he took a few steps in doing so. Namely, the leaking of information for the Armory One attack, and his participation in dropping Junius Seven. I don't blame him for arming up.

Even Deacon Blues stated (or some random poster, I forgot who) that even in the Astray manga there was no implication of Dullindal in all the evil goings on in the CE, when there was the general notion that Dullindal was only evil in the manga. As for Junius Seven drop, we only have Zala supporters to blame for this...

What the heck are you talking about?

Everything goes exactly/fall into place for Lacus sama, whereas for her villains, they aren't as lucky, TOO lucky. Poor them.

They're both the same thing really. I still don't find any fault with the nation's respective arms build up.

And yet you're arguing what Dullindal et al are doing wrong and Lacus et al are right...

As I pointed out earlier, it wasn't Lacus' call to make. Besides, that first attempt wasn't a bad idea (although the execution leaves something to be desired).

Yes it was. She didn't "want" to go back to war, remember? If Lacus didn't want it, she would not let them go on that suicide mission, and indeed, in order to further cement that it was her call, she even agreed to become part of the Archangel crew for a while (and the fact that they only moved after Lacus agreed to their decision to join the war again). If Lacus didn't approve of what they want to do back then, they could still be safely entangled in Orb affairs until the emirs would find out about their sojourn in Orb and probably do off with them as they see fit.

I seriously doubt that Kira ever said that he was trying to end the war on his own.

Yes, he was. He was spouting some pre-Lacus speech thing something or other while doing all that MS pwnage...

Oh, and for kicks....

(from the interview with the chief mecha guy)

*Where does Lacus get her Mobile Suits?
There's 'factory' in the asteroid belt where Eternal was hiding. Even until now there's the Clyne faction in ZAFT, so they formed Terminal together with Lacus. These guys' factory in space is the "Factory"

^^^ Yes,Lacus was the one that created Terminal...so Lacus created those uber Gundams lots else from her own resources...

[aeriolewinters]

Actually, Lacus was telling them not to fight for something they don't really understand.

It's the implication I saw when she confronted Athrun.

"You may be a soldier, but you're still Athrun, Aren't you?"
Athrun was then blinded of the fact that Gilbert's plan was so self-imposed, It didn't give anyone Freedom. It's just like giving a new ball when the players don't like it.... And this was no Stern at all, this was Stern with a Nuclear Bomb pointed at America. Lacus was just telling Athrun that if he is going to fight, he should fight with knowledge and responsibility.

Lacus just wants people to benefit from free will. Accept it, because its the only thing that makes us human. Taking away free will will just result in a being that is not rational, and cannot think of one's self and will not think of it. This new being Gilbert wants to create may be "Free" but isn't logically free, because its just like saying that God gave us Free will, and I'm the only one capable of choosing it for you. Lacus was well against that because, She wants something more than Material Freedom, She wants Freedom for all aspects. I assure you, if Releena (Pre Endless Waltz) was in Lacus place; then she would've agreed to Gil's terms.

In common sense;

A pacifist may or may not be an advocate of Freedom.

-since pacifism is centered directly to the absence of war, Lacus would not count as a Pacifist... as Releena is not considered a pacifist anymore after Endless Waltz.


Lacus is more of an idealist than a pacifist. Idealist meaning She fights for what she believes in.

[shaolo]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

Actually, Lacus was telling them not to fight for something they don't really understand.

It's the implication I saw when she confronted Athrun.

"You may be a soldier, but you're still Athrun, Aren't you?"
Athrun was then blinded of the fact that Gilbert's plan was so self-imposed, It didn't give anyone Freedom. It's just like giving a new ball when the players don't like it.... And this was no Stern at all, this was Stern with a Nuclear Bomb pointed at America. Lacus was just telling Athrun that if he is going to fight, he should fight with knowledge and responsibility.

Lacus just wants people to benefit from free will. Accept it, because its the only thing that makes us human. Taking away free will will just result in a being that is not rational, and cannot think of one's self and will not think of it. This new being Gilbert wants to create may be "Free" but isn't logically free, because its just like saying that God gave us Free will, and I'm the only one capable of choosing it for you. Lacus was well against that because, She wants something more than Material Freedom, She wants Freedom for all aspects. I assure you, if Releena (Pre Endless Waltz) was in Lacus place; then she would've agreed to Gil's terms.

In common sense;

A pacifist may or may not be an advocate of Freedom.

-since pacifism is centered directly to the absence of war, Lacus would not count as a Pacifist... as Releena is not considered a pacifist anymore after Endless Waltz.


Lacus is more of an idealist than a pacifist. Idealist meaning She fights for what she believes in.

I thank you just sum up what Lacus is to some extend.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Yet they could not be said preaching something that goes against their very beliefes into why they dhould end all things this way or that. I mean, if they were, then it's better that they could never even have bothered trying to, as it would only make them kid themselves for being hypocrites.

So you're calling Lacus a hypocrite because she doesn't act like a pacifist and she doesn't hold pacifistic views and she doesn't make pacifistic speeches?

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

But yet she deals war on the same people and arguing at the same time that war is NOT the way to end all these complex issues? She was seen telling all soldiers to stop fighting/do you know what you're fighting for?/etc. while at it, too...

There are two unspoken corollaries to what Lacus says: it's pointless to try to tackle the pertinent issues until the war is dealt with, and that sometimes it's necessary to use force to end wars.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

And so Athrun made his cross island/country drive across seven seas in order to get to that orphanage... And if it wasn't part of Orb jurisdiction, why would Cagalli go out of her own way to protect them both? If that were the case, then Cagalli should also be charged with trying to serve her own interests above Orb's.

Besides, how could even Shinn knew where the Onogoro Memorial was and both Kira and Lacus were there? Remember that they simply walked right back into the orphanage after they met Shinn. Shinn was off duty at that time and decided to visit the Memorial and emo about his sister.

I think that you're just confused. The orphanage was at Malchio's house which was located in the Marshall Islands, outside of Orb territory. When Cagalli went to visit them in After Phase, she had to fly there.

All the events that you're talking about occurred after that orphanage was destroyed by Junius Seven, and Kira and Lacus had moved to Cagalli's estate.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Yes, but Kira decided to be part of the EA, or have you forgotten about that? His MIA could leave his membership to be desired, but still the fact remains thathe was oncepart of the EA and decided to join the Clyne Faction that was instrumental to their downfall...Kira now has every reason to fear for his life.

I'm sorry, but you're simply ignoring the facts. While Kira joined up with OMNI, he never renounced his Orb citizenship, nor did he take up EA citizenship. Since he's also never lived in EA territory, why would he think of them as his government?

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

As for Lacus, she only succeeded in killing of Zala but not his supporters, who would now want revenge for what she did that stripped them off of their power. Lacus then has every reason to fear for her life.

But that's still not fearing the PLANT government. In any case, public figure have to worry about security matters all the time. Lacus has been a public figure for a long time, so I don't see how it makes all that much difference.

"Orb also has a non-discrimination policy, that is whythere are Naturals and Coordinators living on that island nation/kingdom. I have no idea if it also grants political asylum as well.And Lacus' location is secret, too. Now, if Lacus wasn't wanted, why would Cagalli go through all that trouble into keeping Lacus' secret safe?"
To recap, the above is the statement that I originally addressed. In the first place, Lacus was hardly worried about being wanted by any government, and the latter point about Cagalli giving them sanctuary is laughable given that they didn't even move to Orb after the Cosmic Era 71 war.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Well, they were the ones who immediately knew it was Dullindal all along...

And how does this somehow make Durandal's attempt at assassination right? After all, you said, "He admitted that Lacus' influence is more than his own so I could see nothing wrong with what he was planning."

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Wow, we have had no idea of the Destiny Plan whatsoever until the last episodes of Destiny, where the writer decided to make Dully evilly complete and hastily added that so Lacus would have more reason to kick him off his delusions. It's easy to connect point A to point B just because he goes against all Lacus sama's wishes. Is it because he's a stereotype (knowing more than the usual in case of goings on, etc.) that would make him such an unfortunate man? If that were the case, then Lacus (showing these very same signs as well) should be called a villain...

What are you talking about here? I was talking about how the war helped Durandal fulfill his plans. What does your statement have to do with that?

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

See my above post for this.

Your above post exhibits no evidence that supports the assertion that Lacus is evil.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

SEED or Destiny? In SEED I couldn't recall how Orb allied with the EA (Heliopolis thing excluded); if ever it was EA that struck Orb first. In Destiny, since Orb was now with the EA, the Minerva was forced to get out of the dock and were stuck right in the middle between EA and Orb off Orb's territorial waters. I think you mixed SEED and Destiny up in this.

Since I can't recall Orb declaring war on PLANT in the Cosmic Era 71 war, it should be fairly obvious that I was referring to the Cosmic 73 war. I'm not trying to argue the accuracy of your point, I was trying to figure out what the heck it was to begin with. Can you elucidate me?

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Even Deacon Blues stated (or some random poster, I forgot who) that even in the Astray manga there was no implication of Dullindal in all the evil goings on in the CE, when there was the general notion that Dullindal was only evil in the manga. As for Junius Seven drop, we only have Zala supporters to blame for this...

The implication of Durandal for the Armory One attack is rather obvious. It was an inside job, and the person in PLANT who had the most to gain from it was Durandal. The situation with Junius Seven is also similar in many respects. While the evidence isn't entirely damning, it's compelling enough to overrule mere coincidence.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Everything goes exactly/fall into place for Lacus sama, whereas for her villains, they aren't as lucky, TOO lucky. Poor them.

Are you trying to argue that Lacus shouldn't build up her armaments because, unlike the villains, she's lucky!? I think that I saw the personification of logic actively trying flee from that argument !

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

And yet you're arguing what Dullindal et al are doing wrong and Lacus et al are right...

There's nothing contradictory in my arguments. I think that Durandal is wrong for reasons other than for building up armaments.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Yes it was. She didn't "want" to go back to war, remember? If Lacus didn't want it, she would not let them go on that suicide mission, and indeed, in order to further cement that it was her call, she even agreed to become part of the Archangel crew for a while (and the fact that they only moved after Lacus agreed to their decision to join the war again).

You've misread Lacus. She may not have wanted to fight, but she knew that there was no alternative as soon as Kira took up Freedom again. The only questions were who they had to fight against, and in what capacity they would act. Cagalli regaining control of Orb's military again was a good first step, so I can't see what's so weak about that move.

As an aside, how can you call it a suicide mission, if, you know, it wasn't actually suicidal?

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

If Lacus didn't approve of what they want to do back then, they could still be safely entangled in Orb affairs until the emirs would find out about their sojourn in Orb and probably do off with them as they see fit.

And get assassinated without figuring out what was going on? Your idea is hardly brilliant.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Yes, he was. He was spouting some pre-Lacus speech thing something or other while doing all that MS pwnage...

Do you have any quotes?

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

^^^ Yes,Lacus was the one that created Terminal...so Lacus created those uber Gundams lots else from her own resources...

That doesn't seem to be supported by the facts. Evidently, Terminal is an organization that isn't affiliated with (although it may be aligned with) Lacus.

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

-since pacifism is centered directly to the absence of war, Lacus would not count as a Pacifist... as Releena is not considered a pacifist anymore after Endless Waltz.

aeriolewinters, that was a pretty good writeup. I'm not sure if Relena is any less pacifistic at the end of Endless Waltz than before, but the idea is worth exploring.

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

Lacus is more of an idealist than a pacifist. Idealist meaning She fights for what she believes in.

That's not quite what makes a person an idealist. To do that, an individual needs to do things for lofty goals. Lacus tends to work based on less ambitions objectives than that. I'd call her more of a realist. Durandal is the actual idealist in Destiny.

[Demongod86]

Actually for saying that Kira was part of OMNI, that was absolute semantics...he got caught up as a citizen and stayed on as part of the Archangel, back when we saw that the EA had some good people in it...basically (except Natale) the last of whom died with Halburton...and then he fought with Archangel wherever it went because his friends were on there...HOWEVER, do NOT forget Alaska.

EA wrote off the ARCHANGEL as a casualty of war. They planned to have it stay fighting until they blew the cyclops. So when Archangel escaped, calling them traitors and trying to have them sentenced for treason is pretty laughable.

"You didn't die when we ordered you to, so now we're going to kill you!"

And post-Freedom acquisition, I doubt Kira would ever have to fear for his life...if any militarized force tried to attack short of an entire armada complete with several gundams, Kira would decimate them singlehandedly, as has been shown TIME AND AGAIN.

As for Lacus's goals, it was clear that after the first SEED, she just wanted to be LEFT ALONE...no more politics, no more Orb, EA, ZAFT, whatever...just live on the orphanage, take care of the kids, sing her songs while Kira would sit on the chair or do coding-monkey work for commission/consulting projects (he was some super programmer, remember?). But apparently, people STILL went after her, so she finally got some political involvement going, though I hope that's going to be short-lived...Lacus shouldn't become the people's pawn.

Or if she will become chairwoman Lacus Clyne, then let Terminal and the Clyne Faction wipe out all dissension, so the goddess of all that is pink and soft and good can rule the way she acts as a regular person.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Actually for saying that Kira was part of OMNI, that was absolute semantics...he got caught up as a citizen and stayed on as part of the Archangel, back when we saw that the EA had some good people in it...basically (except Natale) the last of whom died with Halburton...and then he fought with Archangel wherever it went because his friends were on there...HOWEVER, do NOT forget Alaska.

I don't think that Kira joining up with OMNI is a simple matter of semantics. It incurs a certain amount of responsibility and duty, and it's not something one does lightly. However, it probably doesn't have a lasting effect either: Kira was never an EA citizen, so there's not much they can do to him. It's even less likely that the EA government would want to press the issue.

Charging Kira and the Archangel crew with treason would require a rather "unique" definition of that word.

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Or if she will become chairwoman Lacus Clyne, then let Terminal and the Clyne Faction wipe out all dissension, so the goddess of all that is pink and soft and good can rule the way she acts as a regular person.

Heh heh. That'd be neat; she'd take over the world and impose her will in all things, as is right and good!

Lacus should make pink the new color of evil!

[cloudedge]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I think that you're just confused. The orphanage was at Malchio's house which was located in the Marshall Islands, outside of Orb territory. When Cagalli went to visit them in After Phase, she had to fly there.

Hummm... If I remember correctly, I did recall reading from a guide book that Malchio's house/orphanage in GSD is said to be in Orb's territory actually...


In any case, I don't think the topic of this thread is really debatable since there is little dispute to the fact that Lacus is not a paficist since by definition, paficist does not participate in wars, while Lacus is an active leader in both war, and holds a strategic seat during the battle...

Her intention is also rather clear in GSD, and that is to make sure the world GOES AS SHE WANTS IT TO BE. And if it doesn't go the way she wants, she would not hesitate to use force and terrorist tactics while still looks AS IF she is harmless and is doing it ALL for humanity.

I think this thread would be much more interesting if we were to discuss " Lacus & Hypocrisy: Selfishness and Inactions" :P

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by cloudedge

Hummm... If I remember correctly, I did recall reading from a guide book that Malchio's house/orphanage in GSD is said to be in Orb's territory actually...

Based on gundamofficial.com, Malchio's house was in the Marshall Islands. The Marshall Islands are also where the ZAFT four decided to ambush Archangel as it left Orb, so the conclusions are pretty obvious.

Originally Posted by cloudedge

Her intention is also rather clear in GSD, and that is to make sure the world GOES AS SHE WANTS IT TO BE. And if it doesn't go the way she wants, she would not hesitate to use force and terrorist tactics while still looks AS IF she is harmless and is doing it ALL for humanity.

This is a debateable stance. I don't think that there's enough evidence to conclude that Lacus would resort to terrorist tactics (i.e. attacks on civilian targets, the use of NBC weapons, and the like). Moreover, I don't think that she actually tried to impose her will on the world (at least not yet). After all, the only thing that Lacus really tried in both wars to do was to return the world to a state similar to the prewar situations, and to bring the belligerents to the bargaining table.

Originally Posted by cloudedge

I think this thread would be much more interesting if we were to discuss " Lacus & Hypocrisy: Selfishness and Inactions" :P

If you're interested, please feel free to do so.

[iamthelordyourgod]

Lacus as a hypocrite. Never tought of that, but it wasn't her fault to be in the war. Besides she's an innocent lady, she didn't want war but ZAFT and LOGOS proceeded with unecessary bloodshed. So with further analysis of the subject Lacus is NOT, i repeat,NOT a pacifist nor a warfreak, hypocrite and the like

[anselfir]

There you have it, he disagrees. The most you can get out of this discussion is either that you see different things from different scenes, feel differently about certain scenes, or just simply disagree. In the end, nothing changes.

[cloudedge]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Based on gundamofficial.com, Malchio's house was in the Marshall Islands. The Marshall Islands are also where the ZAFT four decided to ambush Archangel as it left Orb, so the conclusions are pretty obvious.

like I said, my memory might not have serve me right, but when I got back to my dorm I'll try to look it up through my guide book... my impression is that Malchio's house in GSD is in a different location as the one in GS... -.-;

This is a debateable stance. I don't think that there's enough evidence to conclude that Lacus would resort to terrorist tactics (i.e. attacks on civilian targets, the use of NBC weapons, and the like).

stealing ZAFT's mobile suit... broadcasting using underground channel... stealing ZAFT's shuttle... solely funding nuclear powered mobile suit for personal agenda... trepassing Dully's old labortary... sure, she hasn't attack cilivilan but she still did a lot of sabotaging acts against the government that one can hardly deny the fact that Terrorist the fittest name for her group...

Moreover, I don't think that she actually tried to impose her will on the world (at least not yet). After all, the only thing that Lacus really tried in both wars to do was to return the world to a state similar to the prewar situations, and to bring the belligerents to the bargaining table.

return the world to a state similiar to the prewar situation

- how is that not imposing her will? She likes the world the way it was pre-war, no better no worse.

At the end of the first war, she could have return to PLANT and make the situation better, to try to resolve the tension between natural and coordinator, but she didn't. She's content with the way the world is (despite the fact that it was still in semi-chaos and PLANT has been stealing Orb's technology to create new MS which only add tension to the strained relationship)

Same with GSD, she revert the world back to prewar state because she deems it better than the world Dully would bring... mind you, while I wouldn't like to live in Destiny Plan world, that doesn't give change the fact that Lacus is imposing her will on the world (without consulting how the world feels about it - i.e. she doesn't have a legit "position" that gives her the authority to speak for humanity).

If you're interested, please feel free to do so.

not really, you know i don't like talking about Lacus.

[4Tran]

Let's see here:

Originally Posted by cloudedge

stealing ZAFT's mobile suit...

Not an act exclusive to terrorists.

Originally Posted by cloudedge

broadcasting using underground channel...

Not an act exclusive to terrorists.

Originally Posted by cloudedge

stealing ZAFT's shuttle...

Not an act exclusive to terrorists.

Originally Posted by cloudedge

solely funding nuclear powered mobile suit for personal agenda...

She was effectively at war with Durandal, so it makes sense to arm up. However, building up armaments is hardly an exclusively terrorist act.

Originally Posted by cloudedge

trepassing Dully's old labortary...

Considering that it was an abandoned satellite that nobody claimed any more, it hardly counts as trespassing.

Originally Posted by cloudedge

she still did a lot of sabotaging acts against the government

Like what exactly?

Originally Posted by cloudedge

one can hardly deny the fact that Terrorist the fittest name for her group...

One most certainly can. A terrorist uses terror as their main method of advancing their aims, hence the name. Lacus, on the other hand, uses force to achieve her aims; this is more similar to how regular armies operate.

Originally Posted by cloudedge

- how is that not imposing her will? She likes the world the way it was pre-war, no better no worse.

If you're claiming that returning matters to a prewar state qualifies as imposing her will in the sense of making "sure the world GOES AS SHE WANTS IT TO BE", then the onus is upon you to demonstrate so. You may also want to show why this is an extraordinary position to hold.

Originally Posted by cloudedge

At the end of the first war, she could have return to PLANT and make the situation better, to try to resolve the tension between natural and coordinator, but she didn't. She's content with the way the world is (despite the fact that it was still in semi-chaos and PLANT has been stealing Orb's technology to create new MS which only add tension to the strained relationship)

Lacus could have done a great many things. However, there's nothing to suggest that yours would have been a good idea.

Originally Posted by cloudedge

Same with GSD, she revert the world back to prewar state because she deems it better than the world Dully would bring... mind you, while I wouldn't like to live in Destiny Plan world, that doesn't give change the fact that Lacus is imposing her will on the world (without consulting how the world feels about it - i.e. she doesn't have a legit "position" that gives her the authority to speak for humanity).

Correction: she opposed Durandal's plans and fought against it. One doesn't need to have the support of the rest of the world to fight against something you don't believe in. Where the heck did you get that idea from? For example, Britain hardly needed permission from anyone to go to war against Napoleon.

[aeriolewinters]

I would like to clarify that the item Terrorist has the fudamental essence terror.

What makes a Terrorist a Terrorist is his will to harm people for the sake of his goals.His use of Terror to people for a fundamentalist idea is what makes him such. Lacus would not be in that range beacuse:

All Terrorists aim to get more people involved
Lacus Clyne doesn't want people involved
:. Lacus Clyne isn't a Terrorist

And Hardly, If Lacus Clyne was to be considered a Terrorist, then most of the female Presidents in the Philippines would've been considered Terrorists. Since Corazon Aquino needed the help of RAM to Oust Marcos, and Incumbent President Arroyo needed sly underground tactics to become president.


The closest thing you could call Lacus:
1. Thief
2. Political Activist

Take your pick.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

The closest thing you could call Lacus:
1. Thief
2. Political Activist

Take your pick.

I'd add 3. Revolutionary.

[shaolo]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I'd add 3. Revolutionary.

Way far from it.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by shaolo

Way far from it.

Why would you say that revolutionary is not a fit descriptor for Lacus?

[NeonZ]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Why would you say that revolutionary is not a fit descriptor for Lacus?

Because she only fights for the "status quo"? She never really takes open initiative, there's no way someone like her can be considered a revolutionary. Both times she supported battle, it was to fight against people who wanted to change the world somehow, trying to keep the world as it is. Obviously, I'm not saying that their changes would be good ones.

[Renegade334]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

I would like to clarify that the item Terrorist has the fudamental essence terror.

What makes a Terrorist a Terrorist is his will to harm people for the sake of his goals.His use of Terror to people for a fundamentalist idea is what makes him such.

IIRC, the legal definition of terrorism is:
'the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.'

If you take that definition in consideration, a wide category of candidates can be retained - and by then Bin Laden and co. will only appear as a leaf lost in a forest. And small, everyday cases will start popping around faster than baby rabbits after mating season.

Lacus would not be in that range beacuse:

All Terrorists aim to get more people involved
Lacus Clyne doesn't want people involved
:. Lacus Clyne isn't a Terrorist

The reasoning wouldn't exactly be that - terrorists coerce people into adopting their social or political beliefs. Lacus promotes the freedom of choice while not using force or violence of their own volition, but rather as a reaction to an already present situation (battle between EA, Orb and ZAFT).

...I'd expand on it but right now I'm too darned sleepy to build more, consistent arguments. Maybe another day if I feel like it. G'night, everyone.