[Manga] Chapter 262 Discussion

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Geta Boshi

If Inoue is rescued , Aizen wont be that bothered but Aizen will be pertubed as Ichigo challenged his authority in his own backyard and won .

Aizen's plans seem to revolve around Orihime's powers. I think her value to him seems to outweigh even his interest in Ichigo. At this point, Aizen's goal doesn't seem to involve killing Ichigo, but if it came to a point where Ichigo had a serious chance of rescuing her, Aizen would probably send all the Espada to kill him rather than lose Inoue.

[Zu Ra]

After Ulqi discovered Inoue , Aizen's his plans involved Inoue . He made his plan even before SS arc . He slaughtered chamber 46 at that time and sent Renji and Bya to retreive Rukia . He made his masterplan then .

Inoue is a catalyst her loss to Ichigo wont change his plans may set them back as orignally planned

[ThoHell]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

They differ on the basis, and the process needs to differ to reflect that difference.

In the soul society arc, the people the Ichigo band had fighted against are mostly good natured beings that they wouldn't mind create a bond with, under normal conditions.

In this arc, the most powerful opponents are not the kind of beings you can reason with and you can reach some kind of understanding at the end so as to work together. The danger is bigger (and the fights will be more dangerous), the opponents do not mind killing you, as opposed to the SS arc, when the Ichigo crew would be needed for information gathering purposes, hence, they cannot stop to give a break. If you dig, you will find more differences.

If you hadn't disgusted during the many power-ups (which covers a big portion of the story), during our characters getting help from outsiders, which pretty much cover an important part of the story, then I don't see a reason why you should now.

If you dig deeper into a lot of things which seem alike you will find more differences, we were just talking about the main plot and what it involves. But anyways I don't want to make such a big deal over that.

If you haven't noticed, the 3 lesser arrancars following Ichig and crew around aren't very dangerous, instead really friendly. Seems like when they have their mask broken they get some of their soul and personality back, not very hollowish, but there are some exceptions. After Ichi fought that arrancar, it repected him and showed him thanks and somewhat a way befriending and enemy, and same goes for Chad's little fight. Not all the arrancars are blood thirsty and evil, some just want to test their strength in a way and show they're able to be befriended.

I don't think Ichi will have a show down to the death with Aizen in this arc, if he did it Bleach would kind of end..... But who knows. I think Bleach is meant to go out with a bigger battle than that, like an all out war involving everyone. Plus if Aizen is down, there are still a crap load of arrancars around, and some might just try to fill his shoes if he's gone.

If Aizen lost Inoue, I don't think he was even wink, I think she's just a plus to him, but not something he needs that badly.

If that arrancar turns out to really be Kaien, WOW! Huge twist! Will he help Rukia, or will they have to have a serious fight, or will Rukia join the dark side with Kaien? I DUNNO BUT I CAN'T WAIT TO FIND OUT!!!

[sx3]

Originally Posted by ThoHell

I don't think Ichi will have a show down to the death with Aizen in this arc, if he did it Bleach would kind of end..... But who knows. I think Bleach is meant to go out with a bigger battle than that, like an all out war involving everyone. Plus if Aizen is down, there are still a crap load of arrancars around, and some might just try to fill his shoes if he's gone.

I've got it! maybe Aizen will die in this arc somehow and Ulquiorra will step up and become the leader of the Arrancars and Inoue can become the queen

i want aizen to die in this arc cause i just plain dislike him but he probably wont, he'll probably escape somehow and cause havok in another arc -.-

[Zu Ra]

Gin Gin Gin <--------- Gina the new Leader He will Make HM look cool for a change

[NoSanninWa]

Maybe so, but I still think that makes his point.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by ThoHell

If you haven't noticed, the 3 lesser arrancars following Ichig and crew around aren't very dangerous, instead really friendly.

Taking into account that, I have specifically made the differentiation there, as putting the problematic, dangerous, non-negotiable stamp on "the most powerful ones". You can still argue in Inoue case as they are definitely negotiable, yes, in the way that as long as you let them rape you and do not confront them, they are the happiest bunch of all!

Seems like when they have their mask broken they get some of their soul and personality back, not very hollowish, but there are some exceptions....Not all the arrancars are blood thirsty and evil, some just want to test their strength in a way and show they're able to be befriended.

Maybe, but that is what makes them as "exceptions", such as the monsterous researcher from the Soul Society or Kenpachi (who might show respect to anyone who fights them in the way he desires, regardless of gender, origin, etc.), or Aizen and his band of misfits.

Originally Posted by ThoHell

If you dig deeper into a lot of things which seem alike you will find more differences, we were just talking about the main plot and what it involves. But anyways I don't want to make such a big deal over that.

And I haven't really digged the topic to the deepest possible level, I have just mentioned one *basic difference* in both cases, which is used to setup the story and bound to lead to different results at the end.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Geta Boshi

After Ulqi discovered Inoue , Aizen's his plans involved Inoue . He made his plan even before SS arc . He slaughtered chamber 46 at that time and sent Renji and Bya to retreive Rukia . He made his masterplan then .

Inoue is a catalyst her loss to Ichigo wont change his plans may set them back as orignally planned

Just because Orihime wasn't originally part of his plan doesn't mean she hasn't become a very important addition. Aizen seems to almost be making up his schemes on the fly as he goes along. The Hyogoku itself wasn't part of Aizen's master plan since he had already began attempts to make the espada (that's why we have the Tres Cifras) before he learned the Hyogoku offered a better way. He changed his plans and came up with the Central 46 conspiracy when the Hyogoku was put into Rukia. It's the same thing with Orihime basically. And if it comes to a point where Orihime is going to be rescued before Aizen gets what he wants out of her, he will confront Ichigo and co. himself before he'd let them just leave, like he did in SS.

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

Taking into account that, I have specifically made the differentiation there, as putting the problematic, dangerous, non-negotiable stamp on "the most powerful ones". You can still argue in Inoue case as they are definitely negotiable, yes, in the way that as long as you let them rape you and do not confront them, they are the happiest bunch of all!

Well, we're not going to see (among the Espada) personalities like Unohana, Shunsui, Utitake or Komomura who seem to go out of the way to avoid unnecessary violence and make just decisions. There might be personalites like Soi Fong and Byakuya though, cold and often cruel but still reasonable given an enemy can prove themselves enough (Ulq already seems to fit this type). But there's already been a good amount of Espada that fit the mindlessly violent-type, Yami, Grimmjow and Noitora already fit that description.

[Zu Ra]

I used catalyst as in chemistry it speeds up the reaction . In this context she is speeding up Hyogoku . She isnt an intiator ( Chemistry ) for his plans . The initiator was Hogyoku .

Yes his plans was set in motion at that time frame ( failed experiments ) but it was materialized when he knew about Hyogoku . At that point of time he didnt even know Inoue or Ichigo . Also when he discovered Ichi it didnt involve Inoue why ? Ulqi was sent to scout and asses/kill Ichi not Inoue . During that incident due to Ulqi's eye exsistance of Inoue was known at that time Espada already exsisted

( why the chemistry terms earlier blame the hw )

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Geta Boshi

In this context she is speeding up Hyogoku.

Isn't this only true in terms of returning it to the original state, but not the process of creating an Arrancar?

[Zu Ra]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

Isn't this only true in terms of returning it to the original state, but not the process of creating an Arrancar?

IMHO he created the arrancar esp espada as he created Wonderweiss . Fusing double the Taicho level reatsu into Hogyoku ( chptr 229 , Pg 15 ) and temporarily releasing it from Dormant state

[ThoHell]

Originally Posted by Geta Boshi

IMHO he created the arrancar esp espada as he created Wonderweiss . Fusing double the Taicho level reatsu into Hogyoku ( chptr 229 , Pg 15 ) and temporarily releasing it from Dormant state

Dang man, you pay close attention, you totally impress me ~_~. Didn't Urahara on the Hogyoku or something to reduce its effectiveness? By using Inoues powers to return it back to it's original state, maybe then it will be at full capacity? I have no idea, I'm just totally guessing here....

[hdx514]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

Taking into account that, I have specifically made the differentiation there, as putting the problematic, dangerous, non-negotiable stamp on "the most powerful ones". You can still argue in Inoue case as they are definitely negotiable, yes, in the way that as long as you let them rape you and do not confront them, they are the happiest bunch of all!

renji, kenpachi etc. were all non-negotiable, dangerous, problematic for ichigo when they were "all so powerful" compared to ichigo. byakuya was totally non-negotiable and was actually determined to kill ichigo (when he went lv.2 bankai) at a time when he was "all so powerful" compared to ichigo. but what happened? what did yamaji do to ichigo who made a huge mess in S.S.? if there's something we've learned from bleach, is that the best way to conquer the "bad guys'" hearts is with power, because in bleach, nobody is "all so powerful" forever.

there're weak medical arrancars gets treated like dogs, just like in S.S. there're aizen fangirls arrancars, just like in S.S. there're cute, harmless arrancars ready to assist our heros, just like in S.S. there's conflict/infighting among aizen's thugs, just like in S.S. there're both crazy ass killer espadas and cool&polite espadas that avoids uneccesary confrontations, just like in S.S. not to mention old high ranking espadas who used to be but are no longer "all so powerful", being conquered by power and switched sides, just like in S.S.

so are there more enemies to fight? are the enemies more merciless, dangerous, powerful than before? of course, this is a new arc, what do you expect, the enemies to be less powerful and more suave? up til now, HM is just an upgraded version of S.S., not a different thing altogether. the death of a couple of cannon fodders doesn't make it different. shinigamis and hollows have always died in battle. HM won't be any different until we see the death of our protagonists.

[Zu Ra]

Dang man, you pay close attention, you totally impress me ~_~. Didn't Urahara on the Hogyoku or something to reduce its effectiveness? By using Inoues powers to return it back to it's original state, maybe then it will be at full capacity? I have no idea, I'm just totally guessing here....

Inoue can speed up its release from dormant state . Thats how she fits into the equation . Hogyoku will be released with or without Inoue she just speedens it up . Aizen has clearly stated the current espadas are imperfect . Imperfect in what sense I dont know . ( chapter 213 . Pg 19 )

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by hdx514

renji, kenpachi etc. were all non-negotiable, dangerous, problematic for ichigo when they were "all so powerful" compared to ichigo. byakuya was totally non-negotiable and was actually determined to kill ichigo (when he went lv.2 bankai) at a time when he was "all so powerful" compared to ichigo.

Kenpachi was not non-negotiable. He was acting out of the boundaries of the rules set for him. If he were to be non-negotiable, how would he make Ichigo as a friend, and take Ichigo's friends with him? Renji was obviously negotiable, if that wasn't the case, he wouldn't have changed the side he is in. If he had known what would have happened to Rukia, he wouldn't have wasted a single moment to try to save her. And, Byakuya would have easily finished Ichigo, the moment he decided that, instead of listening to Rukia, if he were to be non-negotiable.

And, all in all, we are talking about the good guys here, people who wouldn't normally hurt you, under normal conditions, whereas, the sole goal of Aizen and his men evolves around hurting the innocent. For me, that is a big difference. It is more like comparing why good people don't kill the innocent to why bad people kill the innocent...

but what happened? what did yamaji do to ichigo who made a huge mess in S.S.?

There is someone acting based on principle, acting in the way to protect the innocent. And there is someone acting based on pleasure, own personal desires, and acting in the way to treat life as worthless trash...A pretty big difference, don't you think?

there're weak medical arrancars gets treated like dogs, just like in S.S. there're aizen fangirls arrancars, just like in S.S. there're cute, harmless arrancars ready to assist our heros, just like in S.S. there's conflict/infighting among aizen's thugs, just like in S.S. there're both crazy ass killer espadas and cool&polite espadas that avoids uneccesary confrontations, just like in S.S. not to mention old high ranking espadas who used to be but are no longer "all so powerful", being conquered by power and switched sides, just like in S.S.

Again, if the ratio is 95% to 5% in Soul Society, it is 5% to 95% in Hueco Mundo.

so are there more enemies to fight? are the enemies more merciless, dangerous, powerful than before? of course, this is a new arc, what do you expect, the enemies to be less powerful and more suave? up til now, HM is just an upgraded version of S.S., not a different thing altogether. the death of a couple of cannon fodders doesn't make it different. shinigamis and hollows have always died in battle. HM won't be any different until we see the death of our protagonists.

And the result will be the same, as Ichigo winning. So, since the result would be the same, let's stop reading? Since, it is the pretty old boring beginning and ending, that we have seen before.

And, I didn't say it is completely different, both includes fights you know. I mainly said they have to evolve differently, at one point or another.

[Naive]

Well, this is more broad, but I don't know if Shinigami on the whole are extremely ethical. I mean if you look at the structure of the afterworld, it's very hierarchical with those who have no spirtual energy completely left out. They live outside the court of pure souls and depending where they end up in Rokungai, it's literally life on the streets with no protection or mitigating law force. Only some are truly valued in the afterlife.

What's also disturbing about Soul Society is the genocide they inflicted on the Quincy population. Granted, it was framed as to stop the inbalance of the world, but if you think about it, it's still exterminating a race of people. Perhaps, Mayuri wasn't as deviant as we think if SS could allow that to happen.

[Zu Ra]

Originally Posted by Naive

What's also disturbing about Soul Society is the genocide they inflicted on the Quincy population. Granted, it was framed as to stop the inbalance of the world, but if you think about it, it's still exterminating a race of people.

Quincy genocide was unfortunate but required . Imbalance would lead to destruction of the world . Ishida and his Gramps side the shinigami in this matter . Ishida is pissed simply coz the shinigamis stood and watched as his Gramps got Slaughtered . Forget side by side they didnt even come to save him .

Perhaps, Mayuri wasn't as deviant as we think if SS could allow that to happen.

Mayuri is a sick twisted freak . Forget the experimenst he conductd on Quincies , he sacrficed people from his own division to capture the intruders ( bomb blasts )

[Naive]

Originally Posted by Geta Boshi

Quincy genocide was unfortunate but required . Imbalance would lead to destruction of the world . Ishida and his Gramps side the shinigami in this matter . Ishida is pissed simply coz the shinigamis stood and watched as his Gramps got Slaughtered . Forget side by side they didnt even come to save him.

I know Ishida specifically wasn't angry about that, but I still think it's quite a ruthless action. And even the fact that the Shinigami didn't save his grandfather says something about the Society itself and how it treats others.

Mayuri is a sick twisted freak . Forget the experimenst he conductd on Quincies , he sacrficed people from his own division to capture the intruders ( bomb blasts )

I agree he's a sick twisted freak, but he still found a top research position in SS. Not only that, even after the SS arc, he's still a captain as far as we know, even after killing his squad. So, yes Mayuri's sick and twisted, but he's working in a society that doesn't punish him for that. Now we can ask the question, is keeping Mayuri an unfortunate but required decision because of his technological skills? I don't know the answer but clearly he still has value to SS.

I'm just saying that SS can be quite ruthless if necessary as a whole, and people like Mayuri can exist because SS allows them to exist.

[Lendial]

i wonder if ishida will ever be able to kill him off(for good) to avenge is granpa and in a way, his entire race.

or perhaps mayuri will show a different side much later on

[hdx514]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

Kenpachi was not non-negotiable. He was acting out of the boundaries of the rules set for him. If he were to be non-negotiable, how would he make Ichigo as a friend, and take Ichigo's friends with him? Renji was obviously negotiable, if that wasn't the case, he wouldn't have changed the side he is in. If he had known what would have happened to Rukia, he wouldn't have wasted a single moment to try to save her. And, Byakuya would have easily finished Ichigo, the moment he decided that, instead of listening to Rukia, if he were to be non-negotiable.

THEY BECAME NEGOTIABLE ONCE THEY'RE BESTED that's the WHOLE POINT of my post.

and ulquiorra could have finished ichigo, instead he disproves both yammi and noitora's actions
aizen could have send his espada to wipe out the protagonists, instead he told them to stay put
noitora could have killed chad on the spot. yet.. well, we'll see soon enough.
no.9 espada could have finished rukia on the spot, yet...

And, all in all, we are talking about the good guys here, people who wouldn't normally hurt you, under normal conditions, whereas, the sole goal of Aizen and his men evolves around hurting the innocent. For me, that is a big difference. It is more like comparing why good people don't kill the innocent to why bad people kill the innocent...

one man's meat is another man's poison. there's no absolute good or innocent in this world. killing an innocent child = saving thousands of innocent livestock. oh yes, bleach involves different species, the shinigamis massacred all the quincies, how's that? the shinigamis "kill" hollows, just like humans kill animals. is a man-eating crocodile absolutely evil? no. is a croc hunter pure good? no. also in bleach, the souls gets circulated, making the boundary between good and evil even more vague. it's just a different species with a different perspective.

you don't know aizen's true objective. you don't know if what aizen does will completely disrupt the balance of souls. tousen believes his path is the one with least bloodshed. gin followed aizen dispite his feelings for matsumoto. until we understand their reasons, we're in no position to pass judgements.

There is someone acting based on principle, acting in the way to protect the innocent. And there is someone acting based on pleasure, own personal desires, and acting in the way to treat life as worthless trash...A pretty big difference, don't you think?

principles were created by the elites of a species in the best interest of the elites of this particular species, period. people in S.S. live in medival times and commoners suffer everywhere. S.S. has its believes. the vaizard couldn't care less about that, they have their principles and believes, urahara couple who were thrown out by S.S., have theirs, so does aizen and his men have theirs, aizen's not talking about total annihilation of ALL SPECIES now is he?

yamaji blindly follows orders when common sense would suggest something is totally off. to him, central 46=right, and he won't bother investigating things further, because he couldn't care less about aizen, rukia or orihime's lives. you call that principle? S.S. was a totalitarian government, you call that principle?

and how many espadas were acting on pleasure instead of following orders? for one, aizen himself didn't kill anyone uneccesary for his plan.

Again, if the ratio is 95% to 5% in Soul Society, it is 5% to 95% in Hueco Mundo.

95% converted to ichigo's side after their defeat in S.S. 100% lived through S.S. see for yourself if there's going to be any difference.

And the result will be the same, as Ichigo winning. So, since the result would be the same, let's stop reading? Since, it is the pretty old boring beginning and ending, that we have seen before.

i read shounen for their overall predictability, the formulaic leveling up of the main hero, trashing of powerful enemies, powerful allies becoming utterly useless, is what i enjoy in shounen, that's why i call those who dream about anti-shouen formula stuff fanboys, haven't you realized that by now? and just because ichigo wins, doesn't mean his good. power=/=good.