[Manga] Chapter 346 Discussion

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by That Other Ninja

Always been strong? I disagree. He does show an ambitious and disciplined head but I would hardly call his vengeful, selfish crusade and blatant disregard for his friends and country on par with a strong mentality.

Well you don't understand Sasuke then.
Sasuke is a selfish bastard but it has nothing to do with his determination, strong will and morality are two different things.

Originally Posted by That Other Ninja

Some people seem to forget that Orochimaru's current condition leaves him at best handicapped, what with his hands being sealed and all by the 3rd. So when people say that Sasuke owned Orochimaru its jumping the gun a bit, don't you think?

Oro's hands are fine since 3 years now, his current condition was caused by his body rejecting his soul not by the 3rd's seal.

Condition which has nothing to do with his defeat anyway, what caused Oro's desmise is the fact that Sasuke's control over the Sharingan grew so strong that Orochimaru's immortality jutsu became meaningless (or so it appears, I will wait the end of this arc to be sure).

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Sasuke is a selfish bastard but it has nothing to do with his determination, strong will and morality are two different things.

I wouldn't call him "selfish bastard". He didn't kill Naruto to obtain MS while he had the chace to do it two times. Also he kept that a secret from Orochimaru. It's up to our interpretation why he did that, my interpretation is that he sacrificed his "I want power now!" wish for the sake of his friend Naruto. He is indeed selfish to a degree but he is a good guy.

[Hunter]

Sasuke is completely self centered about his own revenge now, to be that way is the main reason he left Konoha because he felt that tagging along with his friends was loosening the hatred that fuels his determination.

Of course Sasuke isn't evil like Oro or Itachi but he still is very selfish. It could be a lot worse but he certainely is not Mr. Nice guy.

[yuchan]

Originally Posted by That Other Ninja

Its because these fanboys, you give them an inch and they take a mile.

Fanboy: "Oh wow Orochimaru might be dead, SASUKE HE MUST HAVE OWNED A SANNIN WITHOUT A SCRATCH. SUCH IS THE POWER OF UCHIHA! SASUKE IS DEFINATELY THAT GOOD THERE'S NO OTHER REASONING HE IS A NINJA GOD IN THE FORM OF A 15 YEAR OLD EVEN THOUGH OROCHIMARU'S BEEN IN THE THROWS OF AGONY FOR THE PAST 3 YEARS BECAUSE OF THE THIRD HOKAGE SEALING HIS ARMS."

Fanboy 2: "Holy cow, Sasuke just supressed Kyubi "inside" Naruto with his Sharingan. THAT'S SO AWESOME HE IS WITHOUT A DOUBT POWERFUL ENOUGH TO SINGLE-HANDEDLY TAKE DOWN A LEGENDARY BEAST THAT'S ROUGHLY THE SIZE OF A BLUE WHALE WITH JUST ONE GLANCE, DISREGARDING THE FACT THAT SCENE WAS MORE OR LESS A DEPICTION INSIDE NARUTO'S CONSCIOUSNESS."

Remember all, this show is called "Naruto" and will see that the protagonist ALWAYS comes out on top. Sasuke is your Vegeta, 2nd best, but even Vegeta wasn't as ridiculously played up by both the author and fans as Sasuke is.

I blame ethnocentrism on Kishimoto's part for that, considering he made the main character a caucasian ninja.

That post is too funny. Especially the bolded part!

[DrunkManCrying]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

1. The reason Naruto doesn't seem versatile is the result of him being the main character and being featured in so many battles. He is no less versatile than most other ninja we've seen. I think the only truly versatile characters I've seen are Kakashi and Sandaime (both display a wide variety of techniques in their fights) Most of the other characters mainly rely on only one or two techniques same as Naruto. But yeah, Naruto's techniques do get kind of stale. I think it would help if Kishi cut down on his usage and featured the other characters more often


2. Where tactics are concerned, yes they can be taught, but it is nearly impossible to guess the powers and abilities of opponents in the Naruto world. Kakashi and Jiraiya can try to teach Naruto basic strategies but they can't guarantee that they will be effective against an opponent. This is esp true concerning Akatsuki. We saw what happened when Naruto tried using the genjutsu dispel strategy taught by Jiraiya against Itachi's genjutsu. It was useless. Some things can't be countered by tactics. Combine this with the fact that Naruto generally learns from experience much better than explanations and you can see why Kakashi and Jiraiya might have figured that it was better to concentrate on increasing Naruto's arsenal of powerful jutsu rather than his tactical abilities.

3. As for Naruto's lack of teamwork, you can chalk this up to Naruto being put in situations where he can't use teamwork. Pre-timeskip he was mostly in either tournament matches or fights where his comrades were unable to help. Post-timeskip, the tails have been a problem as he is incapable of cooperating with anyone when in tailed-mode. This past fight with Kakuzu is the only time since the first bell test that Naruto has intentionally refused teamwork. Even then, he mentioned to Kakashi that he realized the value of a team, but felt it was necessary to fight alone to prove himself.

You know, I more or less agree with you on 1.
Ninjas in the Naruto world is pretty specialized, but I don't really get how Naruto can be seen as being on equal footing, that is, as a ninja, with Kakashi when he basically only knows how to use huge ammounts of chakra, His taijutsu and genjutsu abilities are still teh low.

As 2. is concerned, I don't really follow: ofcourse you can guess the power of opponents in the Naruto world, just look at Shikamaru, you evaluate your opponents actions and then deduce what kind of distance that opponent preffers, what elemental he uses, what he likes/dislikes, all that...

But then again, Naruto can act pretty unorthodox so maybe he isn't all that bad when it comes to tactics.

3. Pretty much proves my point... The tails make Naruto more into a nuke than a good ninja since he loses control. Good ninjas have control and are calculating, when Naruto uses the tails he's more of an intelligent beast than a smart ninja.


It's really as if Naruto somehow is a parody of an American, crazy strong, happy-go-lucky, determined, but oh.. oh so incapable of using the help of others.

[Naruto139]

Originally Posted by DrunkManCrying

You know, I more or less agree with you on 1.
Ninjas in the Naruto world is pretty specialized, but I don't really get how Naruto can be seen as being on equal footing, that is, as a ninja, with Kakashi when he basically only knows how to use huge ammounts of chakra, His taijutsu and genjutsu abilities are still teh low.

As 2. is concerned, I don't really follow: ofcourse you can guess the power of opponents in the Naruto world, just look at Shikamaru, you evaluate your opponents actions and then deduce what kind of distance that opponent preffers, what elemental he uses, what he likes/dislikes, all that...

But then again, Naruto can act pretty unorthodox so maybe he isn't all that bad when it comes to tactics.

3. Pretty much proves my point... The tails make Naruto more into a nuke than a good ninja since he loses control. Good ninjas have control and are calculating, when Naruto uses the tails he's more of an intelligent beast than a smart ninja.


It's really as if Naruto somehow is a parody of an American, crazy strong, happy-go-lucky, determined, but oh.. oh so incapable of using the help of others.

ummm naruto is really a good ninja? in some wayz hes juss reckless and with the tails juss crazy.....lol

[Luminion Lancer]

Originally Posted by DrunkManCrying

3. Pretty much proves my point... The tails make Naruto more into a nuke than a good ninja since he loses control. Good ninjas have control and are calculating, when Naruto uses the tails he's more of an intelligent beast than a smart ninja.

-Depends on what you define as intelligent. Once Naruto enters his Tailed-modes his fighting abilities shift from rational thinking to just pure, destructive instinct. While I will admit that it does pose a threat to his allies it can also confuse the enemy. If his tactics just do not work on the enemy and he lacks the power necessary to create an opening then activating the Tailed-modes could count as a wise decision, albeit within reason.

[GrAYFoX]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Condition which has nothing to do with his defeat anyway, what caused Oro's desmise is the fact that Sasuke's control over the Sharingan grew so strong that Orochimaru's immortality jutsu became meaningless (or so it appears, I will wait the end of this arc to be sure).

Your right here. Even if it was Oro fully powered using his arsenal of jutsu to subdue Sasuke, or Sasuke launching a sneak attack on a near dying Oro, both would have led to this moment. The moment where Oro tried to take his body with his immortality jutsu and failed.

I know what happened and understand it. Like with your opinion on how Kakuzu's defeat was handled, I would have prefered it be done in a way befitting the main villain of the story. Sasuke made the right move to attempt to kill him, im just not happy with how it eventuated. Let's be honest, I dont like that Oro was killed (fingers crossed he isnt dead)

[paptimus]

whether he is killed or not the fact that HE LOST TO THE SAME JUTSU TWICE IS JUST NOT LIKE ORO(IT IS STUPID),it may have been mentioned before but there were many other better ways to end this fight.

[Luminion Lancer]

Originally Posted by paptimus

whether he is killed or not the fact that HE LOST TO THE SAME JUTSU TWICE IS JUST NOT LIKE ORO(IT IS STUPID),it may have been mentioned before but there were many other better ways to end this fight.

-Of course there were other ways to end the fight but this is how it went down so we had better get used to it. I don't mind Sasuke beating Orochimaru that much because that just means Naruto will be even stronger later on.

[keen5336]

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

-Of course there were other ways to end the fight but this is how it went down so we had better get used to it. I don't mind Sasuke beating Orochimaru that much because that just means Naruto will be even stronger later on.

perhaps it was simply the translation, but Oro didn't look the least bit worried about Sauske fighting back with the same Jutsu Itachi used... when Sauske started preventing the transfer, Oro's response wasn't "oh nooos! not that Jutsu again!" it was "it's happening again, those eyes will be mine!" I understood that as Oro knew this would happen, and was ready for it. Orochimaru's much smarter, and sneaky... Orochimaru's deviance is on par with Baron Vladimir Harkonnen from Dune, he's not gonna go down from a little pissant like Sauske...

People seem to forget that Oro tried the same thing on Itachi and lived to talk about it, and we know there's still quite a power difference between Sauske and Itachi...

[Luminion Lancer]

Originally Posted by keen5336

People seem to forget that Oro tried the same thing on Itachi and lived to talk about it, and we know there's still quite a power difference between Sauske and Itachi...

-True but at the time Orochimaru was healthy and battle ready. This time around he was in a very weakened state (a weak body and it had started to reject him). Sneaky or not, every bug eventually gets squashed...

[Kenu]

Originally Posted by paptimus

whether he is killed or not the fact that HE LOST TO THE SAME JUTSU TWICE IS JUST NOT LIKE ORO(IT IS STUPID),it may have been mentioned before but there were many other better ways to end this fight.

Please, for all of Sasuke's bravado, we know this is not the last we've seen of Orochimaru.

In the final panel between Orochimaru & Sasuke, we see Orochimaru breaking free from the binding jutsu.

Kishimoto just wants us to believe Sasuke won that battle.

[Sinaura]

I guess we can argue now that Kishi dumbed down Oro in order for Sasuke to win the way he dumbed down Kakuzu , considering he fell for the same jutsu twice, when oro had years to prepare himself for that kind of situation. Honestly Kishi. The good thing here however is that Sasuke is finally thrown into the main storyline again.

[germanator05]

So many rants about Sasuke winning <_<

As of now, there is no way to tell is Orochimaru is alive or deceased. For all we know, Kabuto could be putting him back together in the other room while Sasuke frees the water works.

But honestly, you guys are just doing some serious bashing on Kishi and Sasuke. So what? Sasuke won. It was to be expected and honestly quite predictable. It is blatenly obvious that the title of the series indicates that Naruto is the main protagonist. However, as the story progressed, it has come to show that there is more than one "main" character, and Sasuke just so happens to be the second "main" character of the series.

Now, before you come at me with the "ZOMG, Sazkay is jsut liek Vejeeta in Dragonball", you are wrong. Sasuke is no where near being the "Vegeta" of the seires. Veteta, in Dragonball Z, was just a secondary charachter tossed in to rival with Goku, and become petty stall at best against an enemy. He had to real purpose, other than to serve as a mini-antagonist against Goku.

Now Sasuke, on the other hand, has purpose in the manga. He has his own sets of goals, and plays no part in rivaling Naruto. Undoubtibly, he is Naruto's rival, and vice versa, but again, he is more than just a secondary character tossed in.

Now, if you have a main character in a room with a villan, and the only two options are: 1. Kill off the Main Character. or 2. Have the villan defeated (possilby survive to fight another day). Which sounds more legible? of course it is number two. That is why Sasuke won, simply to prevent the killing of a character that plays a roll of importance that is just as great as the first Lead Characters.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

-True but at the time Orochimaru was healthy and battle ready. This time around he was in a very weakened state (a weak body and it had started to reject him). Sneaky or not, every bug eventually gets squashed...

If we look at the body transfer jutsu itself and Orochimaru's real form we can see that it was the host body that was in a bad state and not Oro. Oro as a snake monster was in full power.

The problem is that the main part of Oro's jutsu is itself a genjutsu, while we know that sharingan masters are especially strong in genjutsu, more than in anything else. Which means that even if Oro was stronger than Itachi or Sasuke and could kill him in a real fight (with a healthy body) he could not get their body because in that particular field they would overpower him. So even in the best case for Orochimaru, when he has reached the point to initiate the soul transfer genjutsu there is still the sharingan user to defeat. It seems that the soul transfer jutsu is especially weak against sharingan masters. Orochimaru wants something that he cannot get, just like in the case of eternal life he goes to extremes to obtain it.
Orochimaru has already had luck in some cases when he could have been killed, for example when he tries to fight both Tsunade and Jiraiya without hands. Also he was constantly depending on Kabuto, while we see him commenting on Kabuto's possibly betraying him. He likes to gamble with his life, maybe this time he lost the game. Probably this is his only similarity to Naruto

[That Other Ninja]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Well you don't understand Sasuke then.
Sasuke is a selfish bastard but it has nothing to do with his determination, strong will and morality are two different things.

That's a matter of opinion. Had I a choice between choosing someone as a friend who is morally confounded but strong of determination and vice-versa, i'd choose the latter.

Originally Posted by Hunter

Oro's hands are fine since 3 years now, his current condition was caused by his body rejecting his soul not by the 3rd's seal.

Isn't the basis of his new bodies rejecting his soul a result of the 3rd's seal? His hands aren't fine, Kabuto states his current medication isn't enough and when he switched bodies into Genyumaru we see his hands all bandaged up like a lepur.

[Negs]

Originally Posted by That Other Ninja

Its because these fanboys, you give them an inch and they take a mile.

Fanboy: "Oh wow Orochimaru might be dead, SASUKE HE MUST HAVE OWNED A SANNIN WITHOUT A SCRATCH. SUCH IS THE POWER OF UCHIHA! SASUKE IS DEFINATELY THAT GOOD THERE'S NO OTHER REASONING HE IS A NINJA GOD IN THE FORM OF A 15 YEAR OLD EVEN THOUGH OROCHIMARU'S BEEN IN THE THROWS OF AGONY FOR THE PAST 3 YEARS BECAUSE OF THE THIRD HOKAGE SEALING HIS ARMS."

Fanboy 2: "Holy cow, Sasuke just supressed Kyubi "inside" Naruto with his Sharingan. THAT'S SO AWESOME HE IS WITHOUT A DOUBT POWERFUL ENOUGH TO SINGLE-HANDEDLY TAKE DOWN A LEGENDARY BEAST THAT'S ROUGHLY THE SIZE OF A BLUE WHALE WITH JUST ONE GLANCE, DISREGARDING THE FACT THAT SCENE WAS MORE OR LESS A DEPICTION INSIDE NARUTO'S CONSCIOUSNESS."

Remember all, this show is called "Naruto" and will see that the protagonist ALWAYS comes out on top. Sasuke is your Vegeta, 2nd best, but even Vegeta wasn't as ridiculously played up by both the author and fans as Sasuke is.

I blame ethnocentrism on Kishimoto's part for that, considering he made the main character a caucasian ninja.

It's true. Kishi designed the main character to be caucasian to appeal to the Western market, is all.

[Guido]

Originally Posted by Syaoran

The chapter script sounds interesting ^^
Not much Konoha stuff.

Spoiler for From MH:

*The survivor is?!….
Sasuke:…
Sasuke: Dispose of the remains of my body.
Kabuto (thinking): !…
Kabuto: Yes, Orochimaru-sama.
Sasuke: I’ll be performing the final seals on this body in the meantime.
*Kabuto nods
(Akatsuki members start to assemble)
*Tobi and Deidara are walking through some stony passages
Deidara: Hmmm,… I bet I know what this meeting is about.
Tobi: What is it about?
Deidara: Well,… it’s
Tobi: Pleeeeease tell me!!
Deidara: Shut the hell up! I was about to tell you, but I won’t now.
Tobi: Why do you have to be so cruel!
Deidara: Damn it, just wait 10 more seconds, is that really going to kill you?
Tobi: It might.
Deidara: Jeez…
Deidara (thinking): …This will no doubt deal with Kakuzu and Hidan’s death… And who will replace them…
Deidara (thinking): …though, I don’t recall there being too many good choices out there… I’ll be surprised
if we can get anymore recruits around Hidan’s level.
*Deidara and Tobi walk into the main chamber
Deidara: …Shit…
Deidara (thinking):…We’re the last ones here… stupid Tobi…
Tobi: I think we’re the last ones here.
*Rest of Akatsuki members stare at Tobi including Deidara.
Tobi:…Uh…Sorry…
Akatsuki Leader: …Now that we’re all here, we have an important matter to discuss.
Akatsuki Leader: …As you should know by now, Orochimaru has been a threat to our plans. It is almost time for Orochimaru to transfer to a new body. That new body,… is that of an Uchiha.
Itachi: …
Deidara (thinking): …Already?… I guess I was wrong…
Akatsuki Leader: Our initial plans on capturing the remaining bijuu’s are now on hold. Our first priority is to kill Orochimaru.
Akatsuki Leader: We can no longer ignore the threat he poses, especially if he were to succeed in acquiring an Uchiha.
*The scene shifts to inside Orochimaru’s hideout.
*Kabuto walks into his lab.
*Kabuto stares at a withered old hand on the dresser.
Kabuto: !…
Kabuto (thinking): Orochimaru-sama?…
*Kabuto has a flashback of Sasuke walking out of the room
*Kabuto starts to run out of the lab.
*Scene shifts back to a hill outside Orochimaru’s hideout. Sasuke is running away from the hideout.
*Scene zooms in on Sasuke’s back as he’s running, and then on the ring he has on his left hand.
(Just which one is Akatsuki pursuing?!…)

just a side note, i have the japanese along side trans, but the Japanese is in ??? mark form. I can't get a japanese language pack because i have a hacked version of xp.

Cool piccie ^^
He looks more mature... anyway... fake pic: 12yo Sasuke collar.

I have read the script and from the end of the chapter....

Spoiler:

does that mean Sasuke is going to join Akatsuki?

I think he took Orochimaru's Akatsuki ring from the latter's decayed hand.

The other possibility that I assume is that Sasuke took the ring with him to serve as a hint, clue, or connection to locate Akatsuki. Subsequently, he wants to find Akatsuki in order to deal the death blow to Itachi once and for all.

[Hunter]

You are refering to fake spoiler.
The raw is out anyway.