Hmm... seems loli are indeed popular...

[mantidor]

omg statistics! at least we the third world countries dont have to worry about low infant births rates ^_^

its true how the life expectancy has increased, a simple example is "romeo and juliet" by shakespeare, in the play its mention she was 14 years old I think.

Another curious note about it is that Ramses II lived almost 60 years, with a life expectancy of less that 30 years for most egyptians Ramses was the only pharaoh for most of them (sometimes even for two whole generations! )

Another note related to that: here in some indian tribes girls get married and have children since the are 12 years old

[kj1980]

Originally Posted by OnegaiNL

it depends on the culture ... and what people find normal in that way
we may think its sick or something, or that they are pedophiles in those countries that let 20 + marry 12 years old... but they think its normal.. they probably dont know what pedophile means... and anyways.. they wouldnt be pedophiles.. unless they rape or/and molest them :P

I think in the cases noted above, and in pre-modern Japan, it was marrying a 15 year-old "man" with a 14 year-old "woman."

[hobobaggins]

Originally Posted by mantidor

Another note related to that: here in some indian tribes girls get married and have children since the are 12 years old

on a similar note, there were riots in Italy ( i believe) when the marrige age was raised to 11.

[Yamano667]

anime or hentai TV series or OAVS tend to force the issue that even having sex with your sister is GOOD ..Is that pervertion ?? or culture ?! maybe japanese love that, but who are we to judge them See Onegai Twins, Mizuiro, etc..examples of japanese culture Japan and Holland must be a great place to live, if you are a pedo

[dreamless]

well, hentai anime or TV obviously don't count. Same goes for American porns, Japanese AVs, etc. etc. but then here we have a public beauty contest... so maybe it holds more real life social relevance than some hentai stuff...

[mantidor]

for me that someone consider a 12 year old girl sexually atractive is perfectly normal, not that I would encourage sex with a minor >_<!, but sex is ultimatly about reproduction and girls are able to reproduce since that age, is just nature

[DarkCntry]

Originally Posted by Yamano667

anime or hentai TV series or OAVS tend to force the issue that even having sex with your sister is GOOD ..Is that pervertion ?? or culture ?! maybe japanese love that, but who are we to judge them See Onegai Twins, Mizuiro, etc..examples of japanese culture Japan and Holland must be a great place to live, if you are a pedo

I don't know...each of those stories worked out to where it's not incest on the exact definition. Hell, even in the ero Kana Imouto it works out to remove the whole incest 'taboo'.

Looking back on the US society, many of our 'customs' have changed to fit different opinions...in the US back in the early 1700's, it wasn't that uncommon to have arranged marriages between people that vary so widely in ages that you'd see some 12 year old girl getting married to a 30 year old man. It was based upon social stature and class, considering that currently we have all of these 'morality' laws in our society and that we've 'evolved' from a class-driven society to a more moral-driven one we've lost those old ways. Of course, this being my opinion and all...our society is now driven on sex and money, and even if people don't admit to it that is how it is done today.

Because of this, we've pretty much forced our lifestyles to fit this, thus increasing the general thought-track to believe that people have to use sex and money to get anywhere in our society. Looking deep enough, we're no different than the Japanese 'red-light' issues...we've got our child porn issues, we've got our underage prostitution issues...the fact is, most of this society doesn't look deep enough to see it. Right now, I'm sure there's a statistic stating that there are at least 300 people engaging in something that could constitute them as a pedophile.

Now, back to the topic itself...read through what I could. Seems to be not much different than our beauty pageants or Miss Teen USA type deals.

[StoneColdCrazy]

While a lot of people are expressing surprise or sadness at the statistics that kj1980 had posted, I think they're a little less surprising than we'd like them to be. I really wouldn't be surprised if such figures weren't to different for British girls. I think such trends aren't uncommon elsewhere too, possibly partly fostered by the fact that youngsters are increasingly realising that a lack of accountability allows them to better manipulate those older than them...

SCC

[Vegna]

Well, I guess this is an endless discussion, always has been, always will be.
I honestly don't think you can stick an anwser on anything, as it all depends on the situation.
Some points to take into consideration:
- Personal view (mostly influenced by your envoirment)
- Is the girl/male informed enough about sexual matters and consequences?
- Are both parties in agreement (love?)
- Has there been deception or inappropriate actions from anyone?
- Are they willing to bare the consequences?
- etc.

So it all depends on the situation, I think it's wrong to judge anyone if they're not doing anything to hurt anyone else or themselves.
I dont think you can stick an age on anything (theoreticly speaking) because it's different for every person.

[Aoie_Emesai]

OMG!? You brought back a thread that end back in 2004?

ps: Personal taste, that's all.

[mantidor]

Originally Posted by OnegaiNL

yea in fact its kind of lame :P that your called pedophile b/c of it
but in some countries where they need a bigger population.. will probably have laws that u can marry earlier and stuff like that ...
but however America screws around a bit too much.. so they kick out the people's laws like theyre doing in Iraq / Afghanistan now <_< to insert their laws... i think its wrong

wow if this is old, and I miss this response all this time.... well, I think I was misunderstood, and my original views have changed too, because as "natural" as it is, I think is awfully wrong in any way whatsoever, and just because an 11 year old girl can get pregnant doesn't mean she should be, in fact with all those statistics about past times, one of the main causes of such low life expectancy for women was death at delivery, because at such young age the body isn't ready for the process, most women died at childbirth in those times, and one of the reason was they were having babies at 15 years of age. Maybe it isn't even that "natural" as I said before to begin with.

And if you like 11 year old girls you are a pedophile, theres nothing lame about it:P

[hipeach]

some hundred years ago people get married at 11 to 14, now people can only get married after 20, I do not think one is more wrong than another. pedophile and loli are all man-made words that holds no true in themselves, and recently pedophile is no more a bad word, maybe it is because more and more people like loli, so more people are proud and praised being pedophile. maybe some hundred years later when people has life expectancy of over 150 years, 20 year old girls are also called loli, and people like them are called pedophiles.

[mantidor]

Originally Posted by hipeach

some hundred years ago people get married at 11 to 14, now people can only get married after 20, I do not think one is more wrong than another. pedophile and loli are all man-made words that holds no true in themselves, and recently pedophile is no more a bad word, maybe it is because more and more people like loli, so more people are proud and praised being pedophile. maybe some hundred years later when people has life expectancy of over 150 years, 20 year old girls are also called loli, and people like them are called pedophiles.

urgh, pedophiles and their excuses. You must live in a very bizzare world if people there are proud and praised for being pedophiles. You need to get out outside whatever anime niche group of people you have.

And we should really stop comparing past times, girls were sold back then to begin with, marriage was more an economic arrangement between families than the fairy tale we usually think it is, past times shouldn't be a reference at all. Also the life expectancy was so low because of the ridiculously high infant mortality rate, it doesn't mean all people died at 30, only that few managed to get past their childhood, but if they got there, their chances of getting beyond 60 was greater.

Spoiler:

reading my old posts is so embarrasing honestly... like a public childhood photo...

[Jaden]

average life expectancy of 150 years is not going to happen :P ~140 is about the absolute that can't be topped no matter how healthily you live.

and before death by senescence there will likely be a point where we're so broken that it's hard to muster any will to live.

i don't think life expectancy in rich countries will raise that much during this century. some hundreds, or even thousands of years of evolution won't change it either. i think the only hopes for people to live significantly longer will come from advances of technology, ie making immortal abominations by heavy gene manipulation or going cyborg. :P

[Vexx]

Be careful how one uses the word "underage" ... its a very localized definition (i.e. might vary from state to state, much less across international borders)

@mantidor: you're confused about the meaning of "pedophile" -- it is a medical description of someone who is sexually attracted to PRE-PUBESCENT girls (defined as <11). Perhaps *you* need to get familar with a dictonary. I do agree marrying girls off at <14 is "not a good idea" but mostly because they have too much potential to derail it like that. And most often, marrying them to men over 30 is just a variation on the "sold into slavery" theme for women ("how many cattle for your daughter?").
The hard part here is that we're asking sexually "ready" boys and girls not to have sex for a good six or more years after they're biologically ready to.... tough to rein in several million years of hormones.

@some previous poster who didn't know what "lolita" meant -- it derives from an old book "Lolita" written about a 20-something man who became attracted to a young teenager (sexually mature but underage) ... typically it refers to being attracted to someone between the ages of 12-16. In anime circles, it has been latched onto by some folks to try and group pedophilia (either anime fantasy or actual medical pedophilia) with attraction to "underage" girls ("underage" varying from country to country)... the two phenomenom really aren't the same.
Of course, the fantasy of anime (and the nostalgic revery for "first romances") is a far cry from true pedophilia or even "loliphilia" (ugh, not a word).
There's also the foggy nature of the word that "loli" can refer to fashion or looks as well as age. A petite waifish woman can be very loli even if she's in her 40s... (asian women seem to have an edge in that area).

@junko: until *quite* recently, it wasn't such a big deal (i.e. well into the 20th Century May/December and marrying at 15 or 16 was fairly typical).
What changed it wasn't "morals" so much as the growing movement to make sure girls completed their high school education (and later a desire for more of them to attend college).
The "religious" discouragement is complete dreck since the Bible doesn't say much other than noting women got married as soon as they could reproduce and how many cattle you can get for your daughter.

It amazes me how a given population can have their 'principles' so easily modified and the previous ones forgotten