(L) Dungeon ni Deai o Motomeru no wa Machigatte Iru Darou ka (LN)

[Kuroageha]

He has but all of them are more of an administrative staff than a proper guild.

[DerDoppelganger]

Originally Posted by kidstandout

yup, which makes giving her too much screen time in the main book redundant.

but seriously, the author has to go back to improving the hestia family, and dont mean just bell. we need a volume consisting of either leveling up welf, haruhime, lili ect or recruiting strong free agents (ryuu once she gets unblacklisted). no matter how much bell grows, how deep he can grind the dungeons will always be hindered by the rest of his squad. it would be great if realise phrase coud be extend to his party as a new sub skill or something

Welf won't level-up for a while, now, since he just reached level 2, and that all his stats are ranked I.

That being said, Omori could come up with some bs reason to make it happen, but Bell would stop being a unique snowflake if he did.

Haruhime was the proposed solution to this problem, but Uchidenokozuchi is more of a trump card than anything, and extending it's effects to the whole party would be akin to putting a Band-Aid on a bullet wound.

Hestia Familia is weak and unbalanced, and is in dire need of fresh blood.

Ryu comes to mind, but team-ups are more probable for the time being.

[Kuroageha]

He still can be the special snowflow if the reason others around him improve because they were with him.

Kind like Ichigo from Bleach making everyone close to him be something special but not as much as him.

[DerDoppelganger]

Originally Posted by Kuroageha

He still can be the special snowflow if the reason others around him improve because they were with him.

Kind like Ichigo from Bleach making everyone close to him be something special but not as much as him.

That's one thing people hate about the series, although there is much to hate about Bleach.

Ichigo is supposed to be oh so special, with his Quincy, Shinigami, Vizard and Fullbringer powers, yet others with a fraction of his potential keep catching up to him...eventually.

It would be a pity if the same happened with Bell and Hestia Familia.

I don't know about you, but I would much rather prefer a DBZ type of scenario, with side characters progressively being left in the dust by the protagonist, while maintaining some semblance of relevance by fighting appropriately matched opponents, which wouldn't be so far-fetched, since Omori intends to take the series further and further away from the Dungeon, which opens up the possibility for more inter-Familia conflicts rather than monsters of ever increasing difficulty.

With the exception of Welf, all of them are female, so they will never be obsolete in a harem series.

[KnightShade]

Originally Posted by DerDoppelganger

That's one thing people hate about the series, although there is much to hate about Bleach.

Ichigo is supposed to be oh so special, with his Quincy, Shinigami, Vizard and Fullbringer powers, yet others with a fraction of his potential keep catching up to him...eventually.

It would be a pity if the same happened with Bell and Hestia Familia.

I don't know about you, but I would much rather prefer a DBZ type of scenario, with side characters progressively being left in the dust by the protagonist, while maintaining some semblance of relevance by fighting appropriately matched opponents, which wouldn't be so far-fetched, since Omori intends to take the series further and further away from the Dungeon, which opens up the possibility for more inter-Familia conflicts rather than monsters of ever increasing difficulty.

With the exception of Welf, all of them are female, so they will never be obsolete in a harem series.

so make bell into another kirito? barf no thanks

[Kuroageha]

People were already trying to force a comparison with SAO despite the settings and motivations behind characters were different.

Danmachi mobage is such a tease ;__;

[DerDoppelganger]

Originally Posted by kidstandout

so make bell into another kirito? barf no thanks

What I proposed is happening as we speak, in case you haven't noticed. The other members of Hestia Familia certainly aren't catching up to Bell.

While there are many similarities between SAO and Danmachi, there are just as much, if not more, differences between the two, but that is better left for another conversation, so let's try to be more specific here.

Even though Kirito had previous knowledge about SAO from being a beta tester, all players had the same starting point at the beginning of the series, so he earned his position as the strongest mostly through hard work, selfishness and a naturally fast reaction time.

While dual blades is Hax in SAO's context, it is nothing compared to Bell's exponential growth due to Realis Phrase...and Firebolt...and Argonaut...and Luck...and Hestia's blade...etc.

Bell still has a long way to go before he reaches the upper echelon of adventurers, let alone Aiz, so him becoming another Kirito isn't worth considering, especially since the ceiling is much lower in Danmachi.

That being said, he should, and will, continue to eclipse his teammates until he becomes the hero of legend, as foretold by Dungeon Oratoria.

After all, history tends to repeat itself.

[The One Above God]

Originally Posted by Kuroageha

People were already trying to force a comparison with SAO despite the settings and motivations behind characters were different.

Danmachi mobage is such a tease ;__;

Haruhime is cute, and holy crap is the other one Aisha? She's hot.

[DerDoppelganger]

Bell's dun goofed!

[couchpatato]

is bell going get exiled now for helping xenos haha here my theory oh snice it guild wanting to help xenos they prob cover up for bell say that order him to or some chit.

[KnightShade]

Originally Posted by Kuroageha

People were already trying to force a comparison with SAO despite the settings and motivations behind characters were different.

Danmachi mobage is such a tease ;__;

Spoiler for snip:

please may i have some more

Originally Posted by DerDoppelganger

What I proposed is happening as we speak, in case you haven't noticed. The other members of Hestia Familia certainly aren't catching up to Bell.

but bell is far from being at the top of the mountain compared to other adventurers he knows. he's more like the best of a mostly mediocre bunch

Even though Kirito had previous knowledge about SAO from being a beta tester, all players had the same starting point at the beginning of the series, so he earned his position as the strongest mostly through hard work, selfishness and a naturally fast reaction time.

yeah, they just didn't show this at all in the main LN, which is why IMO progressive mops the floor with it outside of the current alicization arc

While dual blades is Hax in SAO's context, it is nothing compared to Bell's exponential growth due to Realis Phrase...and Firebolt...and Argonaut...and Luck...and Hestia's blade...etc.

two different series or game worlds, this comparison is apples to oranges

Bell still has a long way to go before he reaches the upper echelon of adventurers, let alone Aiz, so him becoming another Kirito isn't worth considering, especially since the ceiling is much lower in Danmachi.

but you're idea of having him further etch past his mates is basically doing that. the further he get's past them, the closer he gets to aiz and the other level 6's or surpassing them entirely.

my point is that the farther he get's past his own party, the more they will hold him back in terms of getting to deeper floors. if his own familia serves as nothing but a handicap, what is the point of having them around? danmachi thrives on it's vast character set as evidenced by the two spinoffs, so why actively try to make bell even more of a special snowflake instead of surrounding him with a supporting cast that can compliment his talent?

the only answer i can give is that it's a way to keep the loki squad in the picture and avoid the dungeon in the main book as the author already uses oratoria to cover the deeper levels. but the thing is that hasn't exactly been well received as evidenced by the last 3-4 novels. the synopsis of the next volume seems like it could be heading back to the vibe of the first 5 novels (specifically volumes 1-3), as bell is back to being seen in mixed light by fellow adventurers

let's also not forget that this novel is appealing to the MMO niche, and the one thing they hate are overtly OP mc's which go against the grind. that's a bit more relevant than the opinions of bleech/shonen fans.

[DerDoppelganger]

Originally Posted by couchpatato

is bell going get exiled now for helping xenos haha here my theory oh snice it guild wanting to help xenos they prob cover up for bell say that order him to or some chit.

That...or Omori could pull a GoT and have Bell face a trial by combat in the colosseum.

Hermes, being somewhat of a peacemaker, could act as his lawyer until the evidence against Bell proves to be overwhelming. Having already being found guilty in the court of public opinions, he is left with no choice but to claim his innocence with Hestia's blade in hand.

Having alienated Loki Familia, he should expect no help on their part, as well as most other Familia, some of whom have been personally affected by his actions, so the task of training him would fall on Ryu, with Asfi and Aisha's assistance.

Being disowned by most of his former friends and allies, for what they see as some form of betrayal, will make Bell doubt himself in the beginning, until he remembers that a fool has to take a stand for what he believes in, no matter the cost.

Fairness is to be expected from the Guild, but the severity of Bell's alleged crimes will force them to choose a higher leveled opponent for him. Even then, Bell will mop the floor with him until their fight is interrupted by members of Evilus for whatever reason, which gives Bell the chance to save the day, restoring his tarnished reputation in the process.

/fanfiction

[KnightShade]

Originally Posted by DerDoppelganger

/fanfiction

best danmachi fanfic i've read! no seriously, that was pretty good.

[Avenger2000]

Are the side stories, Oratoria, worth reading? I usually stick to the main series because that is where the plot usually advances and ignore gaiden and short stories. I can read Japanese, just finished Hataraku Maousama through volume 15. Just wondering if it is worth the effort since it takes me 2-3 days to read a light novel in Japanese.

[KnightShade]

Originally Posted by Avenger2000

Are the side stories, Oratoria, worth reading? I usually stick to the main series because that is where the plot usually advances and ignore gaiden and short stories. I can read Japanese, just finished Hataraku Maousama through volume 15. Just wondering if it is worth the effort since it takes me 2-3 days to read a light novel in Japanese.

oratoria provides more world building to further expand on concepts introduced by the main novel, and also follows the stories of the loki familia as they are on the frontlines of the dungeon kicking ass. it also goes a bit deeper into aiz's side of things by showing her perspective of events that happen in the main novel while having a mystery element to it. it's more or less danmachi from the loki squads perspective. all of this is great, but it's a matter of which characters you particularly give a shit about when it comes to the loki squad that will determine you're enjoyment. make of that what you will.

IMO if you're going to pick a spinoff to get into for danmachi, go for the ryuu gaiden. not only is it telling it's own story instead of retreading events(which is more up your alley), it has the benefit of a character who is far more capable of being compelling enough to carry a spinoff with Ryuu.

[Avenger2000]

Originally Posted by kidstandout

oratoria provides more world building to further expand on concepts introduced by the main novel, and also follows the stories of the loki familia as they are on the frontlines of the dungeon kicking ass. it also goes a bit deeper into aiz's side of things by showing her perspective of events that happen in the main novel while having a mystery element to it. it's more or less danmachi from the loki squads perspective. all of this is great, but it's a matter of which characters you particularly give a shit about when it comes to the loki squad that will determine you're enjoyment. make of that what you will.

IMO if you're going to pick a spinoff to get into for danmachi, go for the ryuu gaiden. not only is it telling it's own story instead of retreading events(which is more up your alley), it has the benefit of a character who is far more capable of being compelling enough to carry a spinoff with Ryuu.

Thanks, I'll take a look at it. Seems like it is an online novel. I'm not sure if I would be interested with Loki family stuff in the other series.

[Kunagisa]

Originally Posted by SomethingHappened

In addition to that next volume we will probably see Bell change his view on the world just like Hermès had intended to show him in volume 5.This could also serve as a way to show that Danmachi isn't just about the ships

I agree with this.

Everything’s pretty standard and literally out of fairy tale up until 9. People have been screaming Bell hasn’t mature at all (time barely has passed in the story though, is it even 3 months yet?) mentally. The whole monster vs. human thing conflict to help him mature in mind and choose what he really wants to do. To be fair, this story has never been about ships though!

As for Ais, the last BD volume explains her personality well. She doesn’t want to be hero, which is exactly the opposite of what Bell wants (the last person who was a hero in her life is gone and the wound is still fresh for her). People used to say Ais is edgy like Batman, but Bell’s even more like Batman now (he can take it!). For people who knows what’s going on (like Hermes, who is the most based character by the way), Bell is a true hero.

Doesn’t matter if nobody can help him, doesn’t matter if he labeled as a fake, doesn’t matter if he sheds blood. His decision is what makes him a hero, not the fairy tale version decided for him by Zeus. For other protagonists whose solutions lie with overwhelming strength, you aren’t look at a hero, you are looking at a god.

Originally Posted by DerDoppelganger

The strength disparity between Bell and the rest of Hestia Familia is holding him back, not to mention the lack of meaningful interactions with Aiz, both leading to relative stagnation.

Realis Phrase is not going away. He could start hating Ais and that just mean his bonus growth goes to zero, but as soon as he starts pinning for her again etc. etc.

Originally Posted by DerDoppelganger

Hestia Familia is weak and unbalanced, and is in dire need of fresh blood.

While I do agree Hestia Familia need fresh blood, I still think they’re already pretty OP and full of special snowflakes though.

• Welf’s sword literally carried them like crazy in volume 9, and can continue to carry them until Floor 58 since his craft is better than Tsubaki’s.
• Haruhime’s magic can be extended through potion chugging outside of cooldown time (recall Ishtar Familia literally carried her in a box to Floor 45 just for her magic).
• Mikoto is a giant radar, which is always useful.
• Lily’s a dead weight because her main ability’s more useful for PvP than PvE, but in dungeon it doesn’t matter as much for her role. Lefiya’s Level 3, and she’s still very active on equivalent of Level 6+ maps (okay in some ways she’s even more of a hax than Bell but yeah).

Point is, they all won’t be deadweight if they literally just have more people.

Originally Posted by Reaperherpderp

Spoiler for Volume 10:

What is this XenoMino, is this something new from this volume or did i miss something in the previous ones? im assuming its a Minotaur. It just seems like a badass and i was wanting more info

It’s the one that Bell wrecked in Volume 3, then reborn and now is a top tier fighter. Xeno is a new race; monsters that carried their yearning and regrets from previous lives, reborn with sentient psyche and is no longer just carry by their primal need to kill and survive. This one in particular is the strongest Xeno in existence and probably will continue to get stronger (unlike humans, they just need to hunt other monsters and eat their magic stones/core and they’ll “level” like that). I wouldn’t be surprised this guy turn “Level 7” eventually.

Someone on 2ch said it would be cool if Mino has another round with Ais and wrecks her shit (doesn’t seem like Ais can win 1v1), only this time Bell saves her instead (reversal of book 3), not gonna happen but still fun to think about.

Originally Posted by Avenger2000

Are the side stories, Oratoria, worth reading? I usually stick to the main series because that is where the plot usually advances and ignore gaiden and short stories. I can read Japanese, just finished Hataraku Maousama through volume 15. Just wondering if it is worth the effort since it takes me 2-3 days to read a light novel in Japanese.

IMO, Oratoria 4 is the magnum opus of the series so far.

Oratoria 4 >>> 6 = 5 >>>>> 3 >> 7 = 8 = Oratoria 5 >> 9 = Oratoria 3 > Oratoria 2 > Oratoria 1 >> 4 >> 1 >>>>>>>> 2

Oratoria 4 is the only volume in the series that's split into two chapters only (besides a short prologue and epilogue). The entire second half is an epic raid, if you like DanMachi for fights you shouldn't miss this. Since you can read Japanese, you could check out the Amazon reviews for this volume, no other volume comes close except for Oratoria 5, which I think people rated highly just because it came after volume 9 and Bell appeared in it (though has a ton of background information). You will find a lot of reviews saying lately Oratoria's more interesting than the main.

I think Ryuu's Gaiden is actually pretty boring except for Syr bait ... Syr makes everyone more interesting though.

[KnightShade]

Originally Posted by Kunagisa

Realis Phrase is not going away. He could start hating Ais and that just mean his bonus growth goes to zero, but as soon as he starts pinning for her again etc. etc.

IMO, Oratoria 4 is the magnum opus of the series so far.

Oratoria 4 >>> 6 = 5 >>>>> 3 >> 7 = 8 = Oratoria 5 >> 9 = Oratoria 3 > Oratoria 2 > Oratoria 1 >> 4 >> 1 >>>>>>>> 2

Oratoria 4 is the only volume in the series that's split into two chapters only (besides a short prologue and epilogue). The entire second half is an epic raid, if you like DanMachi for fights you shouldn't miss this. Since you can read Japanese, you could check out the Amazon reviews for this volume, no other volume comes close except for Oratoria 5, which I think people rated highly just because it came after volume 9 and Bell appeared in it (though has a ton of background information). You will find a lot of reviews saying lately Oratoria's more interesting than the main.

I think Ryuu's Gaiden is actually pretty boring except for Syr bait ... Syr makes everyone more interesting though.

three things

1 realise phrase doesn't work specifically because of aiz but the depth of his feelings, so in theory if he starts pinning for someone else sincerly, not that i believe it would happen, it would still work.

2 like kuroageha said earlier in regards to v10, using the subjective reviews of amazon japan is hardly a substanstial metric of anything. it's no where near being a big enough sample size to form conclusive perceptions and most of the reviews are no where near well formulated or specific. citing muh action is basically confirming that.

3 syr is a bonus, ryuu is plenty interesting enough for me hell the most interesting thing about syr is her possible connection to freya

Originally Posted by Avenger2000

Thanks, I'll take a look at it. Seems like it is an online novel. I'm not sure if I would be interested with Loki family stuff in the other series.

then yeah dont bother with oratoria then, especially if you're primarily interested in the advancement of the main plot. there are somethings in it in regards to aiz/loki team that will eventually come up later in the main novel but if you dont particularly care about them as a whole then you wont miss much aside from the lower levels/frontlines action. it's only a matter of time before bell can strong enough to go down there and join the fray, but when it happens, it will be volume 5 on steroids!

[Kunagisa]

@kidstandout
No offense, but have you actually read Oratoria to be able to make these comments? If you say reviews don't amount to anything, then it's best to read those books by yourself. Following this logic, why should Avenger2000 even ask us for opinions?

Oratoria is not a rehash of the main novel as you previously claimed, Omori specifically wrote some novels with the intention you read both to get everything, which you also would know if you've read Oratoria.

[KnightShade]

Originally Posted by Kunagisa

@kidstandout
No offense, but have you actually read Oratoria to be able to make these comments? If you say reviews don't amount to anything, then it's best to read those books by yourself. Following this logic, why should Avenger2000 even ask us for opinions?

Oratoria is not a rehash of the main novel as you previously claimed, Omori specifically wrote some novels with the intention you read both to get everything, which you also would know if you've read Oratoria.

no offense, but dont put words in my mouth thank you. in what realm is saying "it also goes a bit deeper into aiz's side of things by showing her perspective of events that happen in the main novel" anywhere near equivalent to what you said? hell i even told avenger most of things in oratoria differ from the main plot so what are you talking about dont talk about not reading things when you clearly weren't reading what i said.

the first bold is actually true, but the reason why avenger should ask for opinions here as opposed to there is that he'll actually get one from a place dedicated to discussing the work at length and not simply giving a volume 5/5 for simplisitic reasons.