Ichigo and Rukia? or Ichigo and Orihime?

[Melodymix]

Wow, I havn't been on here for a while and there are alot of Ichigo + Rukia fanz out here. Nice to see most people supporting this pairing (Hope KT is aware that alot more people prefer Ichi x Ruki)

[evenex]

Well they are the most popular couple in Bleach with deep hints

I mean, not all love has to be said. To me, I think Rukia thought it was best to hide her feelings since she's a Shinigami and Ichigo's a human
Plus why would KT add a bit like this...(click spoiler)

Spoiler:

*skipped some few pages*

*cries* Just cause Rukia didn't sneak into his room and tried to kiss him dosn't mean romance won't spark. She just thought it was for the best

Spoiler:

Unlike Orihime. Here she is crying that her friend's are getting injured. If she didn't want them coming to the rescue why would she even bother declaring her love to Ichigo(even if he was asleep)
If she knew Ichigo, she would know he'll come and rescue her so instead of chosing Ichigo to farewell she would have chosen Tatsuki for the best. I mean she chose a guy over friendship. And Tatsuki was always there for her to protect Orihime from bullies!

[Naive]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Well, here's something to rock you socks then. I really like Rukia. I think Kubo's depicting a beautiful person, who's kindhearted and, after some initial help from Kaien and later the Ichigo-gang, also strong of heart. But here's the kicker, I like Orihime as well. Same as Rukia, she's shown as a wonderful person to have as a friend and as long as both of them end up happy at the end, I'm glad too. I'm not sure if I qualify as a Ichigo x Orihime shipper, but if I'm asked whom I see with a greater probability to get romantically involved with Ichigo at knowledge level chp272, I'll say Orihime.

Rukia is a beautiful person, I agree. She is strong, heartbreakingly selfless, and turning into one of the most perfect women. I want her to be very very happy in the end. And unlike you, I think it will be with Ichigo. I cannot see how it can be with Orihime when there has been no development of a mutual relationship between Ichigo and Orihime. In fact, it seems like the worst idea KT could ever do is place Ichigo and Orihime together. I've always said Ichigo and Orihime would only work if it could be natural, and right now, after 272 chapters of manga, these two are practically strangers. I'm repeating myself but at this point Renji, Ishida, Chad, and Nell even have closer connections to Ichigo than Inoue. How does it logically make sense that IchiXInoue should happen when after 272 chapters KT has done nothing to develop a mutual relationship?

We know KT is great at developing relationships. I still like RenRuki a lot and I always found it so interesting that KT could make me love that relationship even after it was developed over a hundred chapters into the manga. I think that's pure genius to create a rival ship for IchiRuki, one that was/is a serious contender, after 100 chapters into the manga. Very rarely have any two pairings torn my heart the way these two pairings have done. I also thought KaiRuki was a beautiful relationship when it was only developed through less than 10 chapters. Byakuya/Hisana charmed so many people even though their story is one chapter long. So KT can make connections easily. However, he has failed to connect Ichigo and Orihime and develop a strong mutual relationship. We know KT can write relationships and create wonderful connections so easily, but this connection keeps failing over and over and over again. I have to think IchiOri is not meant to be if after 270 chapters there’s nothing really distinguishing about IchiOri.

Originally Posted by Oberon

Ichigo and Rukia have an undeniable bond with each other. As was stated by Orihime during the manga, Rukia is the person who changed Ichigo's world, gave him the means to protect those dear to him, as he sees it. From her perspective, she's indebted to Ichigo, now twice over. First when, by her own words, his life was changed because of her, then second, because he risked everything to save her from the execution. She has faith in him and because of his actions (the rescue, the resulting revelations from her brother etc.) she can believe in herself again.

Rukia is not indebted to Ichigo twice over. Both are indebted to each other equally She sacrificed her powers to save him in chapter 1 easily. She gave him the power to protect people close to him. She protected him from Byakuya by sacrificing herself to go face her punishment in Soul Society. She was willing to die to save him. Ichigo on the other hand gave Rukia normality, her relationships with Renji and Byakuya, and the courage to apologize to the Shibas over Kaien’s death and create a fragile peace with it.

However, their relationship has not been about debts and who owes what. There has never been a calculator involved. There has always been a connection that supercedes the idea of debt. They have a mutual understanding, a certain chemistry, and a deep connection having to do with shared life experiences. Both are also extremely alike in their core personality where they are the most selfless sacrificing people who want to protect themselves last and try and protect everyone. Both also suffered deep feelings of guilt and helplessness with parallel “memories in the rain” arcs. Both understand the wounds of causing the death of their precious people in their lives. And that is a connection that nobody else in the Bleach manga shares, a very exclusive one created by KT to tie our protagonists together.

Originally Posted by Oberon

That's pretty tough stuff, but has it triggered romantic love for Ichigo within her? I don't know about that. Why do I not know? Because I haven't seen much that would support that stance. I'm not saying there couldn't develop something, and who knows, maybe next chapter Kubo decides to let Rukia say that she fell for him the minute she stabbed his neck in chp1, but until then, there's not all that much that couldn't also be explained with nakama dynamics. If anything I'd say she actually treats him more like a big sister would, like when she made him apologize to Orihime in chp196. BTW in the same chapter, there was her pep talk that ended with "That's the kind of man you've been in my heart". This sentence shows to me how important he is to her, yet even with those words, there weren't romantic vibes coming from her, unless you choose to believe that they're already at a stage to openly declare their romantic feelings without thinking twice about it. Also when they parted at the end of the soul society arc, I saw two friends saying goodbye, no romance. So in accordance with Occam's Razor, I'll take what I see and say, for now, that Rukia has no discernible romantic interest in Ichigo, after 272 chapters.

I highly disagree with this statement. Again, just because it’s not overtly articulated, doesn’t mean that Rukia doesn’t have romantic feelings for Ichigo. I doubt she fell for him from day 1, I would hate IchiRuki if that was the way it happened. The thing I love about their relationship is how it always kept growing and growing. Rukia turned from the shinigami who saved his life - to the annoying girl who lived in the closet - to the friend he cared about - to the person he wanted to protect - to the person he swore on his soul to protect - to the person he gave the most tender look he’s ever given anyone - to the person who is the only one who can comfort and console him at this point - to the person who he‘d give up a whole mission for to turn around and save her. Contrary to your point of view I don’t think their relationship is stagnant. It has grown so much throughout the manga, and contrary to popular thought, I think post-181 it has gone into high-gear. I think post-181 IchiRuki is more intense and dramatic than ever.

I don’t think she treats him like a little brother in 196. A lot of fans interpreted that scene as Rukia treating Ichigo like a boyfriend when she dragged him to apologize to Orihime. Actually, I think her dragging Ichigo was just something that she needed to do. Meaning, the only thing that worked at this point was rough force to get him out of this depression. However, you have to remember that Rukia is a very complex woman and she reads Ichigo and acts according to how she feel that she can help him. He needed that kick in the face. Just like he needed that beautiful and heartwarming speech. Just like he needed to be dragged to Orihime to promise to protect. And I agree, I don’t think Rukia was declaring her love for Ichigo with that speech, but it’s not as simple to categorize that speech as perfectly platonic. Meaning, maybe her words weren’t romantic necessary from her point of view, but the situation itself certainly was because it affirmed such a beautiful and passionate and deep bond. So I would categorize it as romantic because of the spark between them during her speech and his reaction. Again, she never overly said anything about love, but I certainly felt the chemistry.

You didn’t feel anything with 181? Everytime I read it again and look at the art and the panels I find it to be one of the most romantic chapters of IchiRuki. Everything seems to disappear when these two are together. Orihime disappears and the world disappears. Just the paneling is pure romance from my perspective. It’s just Ichigo and Rukia. The expressions are beautiful in that chapter. I’ve never seen Ichigo look so mature and understanding of Rukia’s thoughts and wishes. I’ve never seen both characters so happy, gentle and smiling.I’ve never seen Ichigo declare to anyone “Thank you Rukia, because of you, the rain has left off.” Pure romance.

Finally, you have ignored the fact that Rukia has always placed Ichigo higher in her heart over the other two men in her life. Before she was executed, Ichigo got the biggest panel in her heart. Over 100 chapters later, who gets the fresh art flashback and a panel to himself as the most significant man in her life? Ichigo does. He looks so handsome and the art is exactly the way she last saw him before they split up. It's her last memory of him.

If you’ve read what I’ve written before, Rukia cares for Ichigo like she cares for no one in her life. She shows extra concern and extra caring. She always wants to be by his side if it can be helped. She stays at his house to be near him. If they were just nakama Rukia could have stayed at Urahara’s with Renji. She gives him worried looks all the time. She wants to protect him just as much as he wants to protect her. She rushes to his side in both Grimmjow incidents. She looks after him when he’s hurt. She goes day after day looking for him when he disappears to the vaizards. I don’t understand how you can dismiss all of that as platonic just because Rukia has a different personality than Hime. Hime can tell the audience she loves Ichigo, Rukia is the one who shows the audience she loves Ichigo through her actions.

Originally Posted by Oberon

The other way around I could construct a case around the "tender look" if I chose to interpret this and certain other reactions as romantically motivated, e.g. Ichigo perking up after the "man in my heart" speech, "the look" or his first concern in dangerous situations drifting to Rukia instead of others. OTOH I could also explain those scenes non romantic. "The look": the page can be taken as Orihime centric, how she saw it, thus furthering her depression.

Nope, I don’t understand how this can be misinterpreted. Ichigo’s look to Rukia was pure concern, worry, and heartstopping tenderness. Even if you look at the page structure, Ichigo is the one closest to Rukia, not Renji. Ichigo is the one most focused about Rukia. Orihime is jealous, and it makes perfect sense given this is the same behavior she displayed..oh wait..just a few hours ago with Matsumoto. I highly doubt all feelings of jealousy would dissipate just like that after having a pep talk - all those feelings of negative self-worth certainly didn’t. It fits with her previous behavior and it makes a lot of sense given the previous chapters with her jealousy of Rukia.

Originally Posted by Oberon

And if it's not Orihime vision, why this expression by him. Simply great concern for an important friend for instance. Rukia is an incredibly important person to him for various reasons and seeing her getting mortally wounded again after chp1 and the stuff in SS is a heavy blow, whether he's in love or not. Pained guilt because of his inability to protect could have also caused that look. Let's not forget that Ichigo's protective instincts have been seriously skewed since the day him mother died protecting him. From that point on his desire to protect amounts to nutcase like proportions. He really does believe that he and he alone has the obligation to protect those around him.

You’re missing the point. The point is that Ichigo has never shown a look of that magnitude in terms of tenderness. Compare this to the look Ichigo gave Orihime when she was injured. In both cases he failed to protect, but this look was 10 times more intense and 10 times more tender. I’m sorry, but either way, you can’t dismiss the look as just being purely platonic. If it was solely Ichigo’s obsession to protect which fueled the look, then why couldn’t he give the same look to Orihime when she was injured. Why couldn’t he show that same worry and concern? Simple, he cares for Rukia more.

Also, it was not guilt. It was concern. Ichigo is not so selfish to be self-involved with himself and his inadequacies when Rukia is right in front of him balancing on the verge of life and death. So yes, don’t you dare devalue the look.

Originally Posted by Oberon

Why Ichigo looks out for Rukia first, can be explained without romance as well. Ichigo knew Rukia always as "The weakened one". Before SS, because her powers were drained by him and in SS, because of the continued weakened state due to imprisonment in the reiatsu blocking tower (btw concerning the question why no concern for Ganju on the bridge, he wasn't the main objective and also not the one with a death sencence on his head. Besides I don't think Kubo thought that far about the possible implications of Ichigo's words to Yoruichi). Then she got stabbed through the gut by Grimjow. Taking all this in, it's natural for him to be concerned for her. BTW before I get the "don't you dare debase those beautiful moments" speech, I just want to show that any romance on Ichigo's part can also be seen as nakama dynamics or simply his protector personality coming through. It depends on how one chooses to see it.

Spoiler for manga chapters:

You’re so wrong. He doesn’t know Rukia as the weakened one. If you bothered to read my previous posts, you’d have realized that Ichigo doesn’t think Rukia is weak. He was impressed with her second dance hakuren in 235 when she saved his life. He said it was a great display of power, and really, when was the last time we heard Ichigo compliment anyone on their skills? He rarely does. In 247 she had just saved him from the sand monster in the desert.

Furthermore, she is more powerful than Chad, we know that much, and we know Ichigo knows that much as well. Rukia killed D-roy in one swipe who almost killed Chad. Rukia also froze Grimmjow and saved his life. It has NOTHING to do with thinking Rukia is weak. It has to do with the fact that no matter what, you want to protect those precious to you,. And in this case, Rukia was very very precious to Ichigo. Look, Rukia said this type of behavior was unlike his normal self meaning that something had changed in the IchiRuki relationship. Deny it all you want but it’s true.

Finally your explanation of the bridge scene makes no sense whatsoever in connection with this arc when Ichigo chose between bloodied Ganju and perfectly alright Rukia in 116 because Orihime is the target in this arc and Ichigo throws everything away to rush to Rukia's side. It doesn’t matter if Orihime’s just past the hallway, Ichigo needs to go to Rukia. He doesn’t even ask where Orihime is. He changes his mind without any question, and this a reaction completely different from his reaction to Chad. He walks the other direction. It’s so easy for Ichigo. It’s so easy for him to think of Rukia. And if that isn’t romance, I don’t know what is? If going all-out for Rukia is not romance, I don’t know what is?

But the point you must understand is that Ichigo doesn’t think Rukia’s weak, at least not weaker than Chad. Look at the fights and the power levels and try to say Chad is more powerful than Rukia. He knows she’s not the same woman in the tower, he knows it full and well by now. He knows she’s a capable fighter. He’s seen her in action. He’s seen her defeat a numero, save his life by freezing grimmjow, and save them from the sand hollow. Nope, he doesn’t think she’s weak at all. However, he still wants to protect her because she’s his special person to protect. Just like for Rukia, Ichigo is her precious person to protect. This is why she immediately goes to help him when Grimmjow attacks the second time. They’re perfect for each other really.

If it was a simple display of protector’s personality, then he would care about Chad, who is the weakest one in 248. However, Rukia confirmed that the only one Ichigo was worried about was herself, and not anyone else. And he doesn’t deny it. Usually when Ichigo doesn’t deny accusations, they’re true.

Originally Posted by Oberon

As for Ichigo's feelings for Orihime, based on what we've seen, she's not on his radar. As in the Rukia->Ichigo case, we've never seen anything proposing that Ichigo has a romantic interest in her. Does he know how she feels about him? I don't think so, though maybe he got a hint back in chp167, going by his look when Inoue apologized to him for not being able to help (one of the last pages, before the chp switches to Hitsugaya and Matsumoto). Either way, this scene doesn't propose any romantic interest by Ichigo in Orihime.

Spoiler for manga chapters:

Got to agree with you here. Ichigo doesn’t know or care about her feelings for him. In fact, I think he would be quite shocked and creeped out if he found out that Orihime was in his room and tried to kiss him. I mean, just like you said, she’s not on his radar. If he ever found out Orhime tried to kiss him, I think he’d be angry at her for invading his privacy, especially when he doesn’t know her that well.

Ichigo has no interest in Orihime. That cannot be argued. Thank you for confirming that.

Originally Posted by Oberon

Well, last direction to cover is Orihime->Ichigo. I think it's somewhat evident that Orihime is interested. One thing I'd like to add though is that I don't think much about the argument "it's just a silly schoolgirl crush, so it's not worth consideration" that got thrown around here a few times. How else is Kubo supposed to convey the sincerity of her feelings or what is wrong with the current way anyways? This is shounen manga, not world literature level romance drama. There's tons of manga out there that go by the love at first sight cliché to establish canon pairings. The goodbye scene seemed sincere enough (loved the "5 different lives" speech) and her feelings were shown to be a long time in the making. I also don't think that feeling jealousy cancels out loving someone. Thoughtcrime is not punishable, nor should it. Feeling pain or even jealousy when the person you love doesn't reciprocate doesn't invalidate the love you feel. So, until told otherwise by the author, I'll believe that she loves him. BTW don't start a discussion of the meaning of true love on me. I just want to make the point that what was shown from her up to this stage has enough sincerity and validity to it to grow into full fledged romantic love.

Er, I still think it’s not believable. Justify it all you like, but going from crush to full-out love without much interaction is not believable. Especially with the emphasized lack of interaction Ichigo and Orihime has had. It seems forced in a lot of ways. The disconnect between these two characters are huge. When contrasted to Ichigo’s lack of caring towards Orihime compared to his intense devotion to Rukia, no wonder people ship IchiRuki. It’s quite obvious. Just because tons of manga go from love at first sight, doesn’t justify the flaws in Orihime’s love for Ichigo. In fact, it makes IchiOri seem even more cliché and more stereotypical. Furthermore, we never understand WHY she falls in love with him. And how KT presents her love is very much as though she puts him on a pedestal. She admires him. She wants to be strong like him. She sees strength in him, almost as to compensate the self-doubt she has in herself. Unfortunately, she can never ever say anything negative about him or to him which I think is a deep flaw in her ability to connect to Ichigo. Ichigo is not perfect, he has flaws. He doesn’t need someone to brush over them like Orihime did in 195, he needs someone to tell him he was wrong but he better do amazing next time, like Rukia. He doesn’t need someone who says “Kurosaki-kun is great and can do great things”, he needs someone to say “Don’t you ever leave without me again!” He doesn’t need the soft approach all the time, he sometimes needs a harder approach. And frankly, I don’t think Orihime can be harsh on him. And that’s just a failure of personality match-ups.

There’s nothing wrong with feeling jealous, it’s just some fans, hmmm, yes some fans, deny the fact that Orihime can feel jealous because acknowledging that shows that Rukia is potential threat according to Orihime.

Originally Posted by Oberon

So what we have so far is "Not there"(R->I), "Maybe, maybe not"(I->R), "Not there"(I->O) and "Definitely there"(O->I) as far as romantic interests are concerned. That's a pretty clean slate with no 2-way connections. I'm not talking about which personality profile goes together best with another or who should end up together to ensure the continued existance of the cosmic balance and my peace of mind, but just what I think was shown so far. Basically, Kubo has left open all doors as to which pairing might be the one to happen (if there's one at all). For those who say "But his or her personality don't match", if he wants to make Orihime and Ichigo "work" as a couple, all he has to do is include "and they happily lived ever after" and it will be canon. The same goes for Rukia and Ichigo. As I initially stated, both of them have wonderful personalities and I can see either pairing end up happily.

Nope We have (R---I) (I---R) (O--I). I think the IchiRuki is perfectly two way judging from my analysis, and I’m not talking about who should end up together. Again, overt articulation of feelings does not make Orihime’s love any more valid that the possibility of Rukia having romantic feelings she hasn’t expressed explicitly through words. I could use the same standards to say the person who has touched Ichigo the most, who has had the most intimate contact, who has been carried by Ichigo, who has been lifted on his shoulders, whose lap he put his head on is Rukia. Has Orihime done all of this? Should I declare Orihime’s feelings non-romantic? Nope. Therefore, it’s unfair to declare Ichigo/Rukia simply platonic because they haven’t said “I love you” out loud. I think KT has shown that IchiRuki is most likely to happen at this point. I told you, I used to be a RenRukier and I’ve switched.

Spoiler for manga chapters:

Actually one of the reasons that makes me think IchiRuki will happen is the lack of developments of the alternatives. After 173, KT could have made RenRuki so easy, it was a real threat and possibility at this point. But he refused to do so. Renji and Rukia have not had one single conversation to themselves alone. Even Bya and Ren got a single conversation. Rukia and Ichio got several conversations alone but not Rukia and Renji. As for IchiHime, KT has refused to develop this when he could have. Orihime couldn’t take Rukia’s place in Ichigo’s life when Rukia was gone. Orihime couldn’t connect with him in 225. She couldn’t kiss him in 237. Ichigo hasn’t shown any reciprocation or passion in wanting to save Orihime. He hasn’t thought about her at all really since she got kidnapped. KT could have used that to make him reflect on his feelings for Orihime, but instead we find out he doubted her in the end. So the alternatives have been stunted, while I think IchiRuki continues to grow and grow and grow - even with the romance of 269/270.

Originally Posted by Oberon

So why do I think Orihime is more probable atm? It's because she is the only character of the core cast, who is actually part of any definite romance plot. Why build it up at all? Her goodbye scene with Ichigo didn't need to be so heavily loaded with love declarations. There wasn't any need to include the scene with her crying into Matsumoto's bossom. Her glance towards Ichigo and subsequent resignation when he did "the look" wasn't necessary, but still Kubo included this and also the other scenes. Does Kubo intend to build up her feelings, so that she can become the Dark Queen of Dispair when Ichigo finally makes an unfavourable (from her POV) choice in front of her? Could be, but it hasn't happened yet and from my personal gut feeling, Orihime is slowly pushed into a central position, whereas Rukia becomes more and more "one of the boys". Currentyl Orihime's emotional state is being pushed into center stage and this buildup will need some resolve, once the 2nd rescue arc is over or comes to a climax. Somehow I don't see her getting rescued and going "oh well what a trip, now I'll go back into my usual character dynamics with hidden feelings". Rukia on the other hand had her arc and center stage and nothing happened. As things are now, I see more arrows pointing towards "anything at all will happen between Ichigo and Orihime" than "anything at all will happen between Ichigo and Rukia". My view might change as soon as the next chapter, depending whether we get new information, but so far I'll say it's no way as clear cut as many think it is.

Why build it up? Of course, for her own character development. Ichigo inspires her to get stronger. She wants to become stronger to be like him and stand on her two feet. Her love for Ichigo could simply be a device to allow her to come into her own. Furthermore, unrequited love is not an uncommon theme and is found everywhere. Just because she loves him ardently doesn’t mean she’ll get him. And who says she’ll become the dark queen of despair if her love is not returned? Maybe she’ll find the strength to move on - which would make her a very strong character because right now she’s a very very weak character mentally, emotionally, and physically who cannot defend herself against two arrancar chibis.

Spoiler for manga chapters:

Currently, Orihime’s state is not the center, if you read the past 10 chapters Rukia was central to the arc and it’s because of her all of the events in HM have started moving. Rukia is still the heroine in case you forget, Orihime is a secondary character. Orihime’s love for Ichigo also makes her very Kurosakicentric, and I think being in HM for an extended period will allow her to stand on her own and move on from her love. OR at least she'll accept the possibility of it not being fulfilled, she might have already accepted it with the goodbye in 237. And what makes you think that Orihime will get rescued in this arc? Right now she has more incentive to stay, especially with the Hyogoku and her relationship with Ulquiorra - where something is happening. She is also considered one of Aizen’s comrades since she saw Aaro’s fight against Rukia.

You may think SS didn’t establish anything between Ichigo and Rukia, but what could be more romantic than Ichigo telling Rukia she made the rain go away?I bet if he had said that to Orihime, you would view that as romantic. Unfortunately, that’s not fair. Ichigo and Rukia have the strongest bond in the series, and that’s what the SS arc developed and established. One which will last a lifetime. I think it’s pretty clear cut with where this is going.

Originally Posted by Oberon

There is of course still the whole thing with the black moon and dried sands and wet rain from Kubo's poetry corner, which bonds Rukia and Ichigo together, but based on the other stuff I wrote, I'm not convinced that this is a neccessary romance confirmation. Whether or not Ichigo and Rukia fall in love with each other doesn't have any consequence for their already established bond as "the persons who changed each others lives". Depending on your personal preferences and character you might say "no, this applies to everything concerning those two, so they're destined to fall for each other", but I'm not so sure anymore from the way things are going in the manga. So at least in my case, congrats to Kubo for keeping me guessing.

I think it is a romance confirmation. I mean to have those two so deeply connected and for them to be apart of each other so intimately makes me think that no other relationship these two will ever have can be as fulfilling and as deep as the ones they have with each other. And maybe in the end, is it really fair to expect Orihime and Renji to have to almost compete with this bond.? On Orihime’s side I think it's a little more unfair. I think in the end Bleach is about Ichigo and Rukia. Bleach is about how they changed the other’s life. Bleach is about their rich bond which is a constant throughout the manga, even when focusing on Orihime.

Just because Orihime has articulated romantic feelings doesn’t make IchiOri more plausible than IchiRuki. Because at least we know with IchiRuki that there is a rich beautiful developed earthshaking bond. With IchiOri there is nothing. Pure and simple. Nothin. Right now, I’d lay my bets on the destiny-altering bond over the other one.

Originally Posted by Oberon

BTW some closing words, if Kubo is smart, he'll keep it open till the end and let the readers decide for themselves which pairing they think will happen. As much discussion as this topic spawns, it's still just a side aspect of a shounen fighting manga. So why put up a definite pairing and alienate part of the fanbase of a still ongoing franchise? As for who I wish "would" end up together, I'm partial to Ichigo and Tatsuki, because I have a weakness for the childhood friends cliché and I liked Tatsuki's melancholy side chapter about her and Ichigo's relationship, but that has a snowballs chance in hell to happen.

Nope, I hope KT goes with IchiRuki since it’s fitting. IchiRuki is the most popular. IchiOri is hardly popular in Japan. I don’t think relationships are a side aspect in reality, I think relationships form the core of Bleach with the IchiRuki bond being the main relationship in the manga. Without the relationships there is no passion. Without the passion, there’s just boring fights.

Spoiler for bleach manga:

This is why the recent Aaro fight was so amazing because of the emotional nature of it.

This is why Ichigo’s resolve to save Rukia was wonderful, because there was so much passion behind it. This is why Bleach should start with IchiRuki and end with IchiRuki still together.. It’s only fitting that the pairing that sold the franchise should end up together to satisfy the fans and satisfy the story.

[animeffs13240]

I do agree with you, especially about the point of rescuing Rukia. I believe that Ichigo and Rukia are perfect for each other; Like I said before Orihime is better matched with Ishda (I can definitly see that happening) Orihime pairing up with Ichigo is like Chad dating Keigo

[TwilightHack]

Thanks Oberon, you're the first person here to cover all sides of the argument in an educated non shipping way. Its sad to see your post was torn apart so needlessly.

@Naive - I was writing up a counter post and realized that I have better things to do with my time rather then argue with someone who will fight by any means to make sure that their point is the only right point... so I cede for now. I'll just let you know before someone else rips you apart on it, that almost all of your arguments are based on self interpretation points. Unless you can tell me right now that you're KT and then prove it, and say that everything you've said in your posts is the way that the manga is supposed to be interpreted as, I think its just a fallacy.

Note: I don't know how I came off as sensitive, I don't know how I was labeled as a shipper (recently), and I don't know why I almost started debating again.

[Oberon]

To cellardoor and Qc0Jh1axT (those are the replies I read before starting on this):

Thanks for your replies, I've read them and I can see where you're coming from. Here's the thing though, a lot of your arguments, and mine as well, are based around how we as individuals interpret certain facts or events, be it on an intellectual or emotional level. Something I've learned in the course of more than enough years is that two people given the exact same information and guided through the exact same way of reasoning can still end up at different conclusions, just because of the persons that they are.

I'm sure you think now "how can he read all those facts we present him and still not see it our way/the right way?", but that's how it is and in this case I ended up on the minority side. I could start a point by point discussion of each of your refutes to my post (please just take my word on that and don't ridicule me for not doing so). Some of the points I made are more easily defendable that others, some were disproven and going by some of your answers, I may not have correctly conveyed some of the points I wanted to make or didn't find the right words to phrase my idea non-ambiguously. You made some good points (e.g. the smart thing to do for Kubo), but there's also several things I still see differently.

I could try to rephrase some of my points to clarify or add additional examples, the fact remains, that even if I did find the right words, did search through all chapters to cite this and that to underline my line of thought, chances are exceptionally good, that you'll disagree with me anyways (or I with you) because we don't interpret what we saw in the manga with the same mindset, the same pesonality, the same personal background and no words from an anonymous poster on some webboard are likely to change that. That is, and I'll say it again, because apart from the facts themselves, our own emotions are part of the equation. I've read your arguments, I've seen them before and I also see how someone can come to your conclusions, but right now at a gut level, they're not my conclusions. For example, all the chapters that you quoted, Qc0Jh1axT, to prove romantic inclinations from Rukia are still vividly in my mind and nevertheless I came to a different result, since I see them differently.

I wanted to present some of the points by which I formed my current (pro IchigoxOrihime) view concerning how I think things might go, so that others may see a different view and maybe even take new ideas from it, but I don't see the necessity to discuss it further, as I'm not interested in converting you. Well, I've said my part and if you feel like bashing me for chickening out despite my earlier request, please reconsider.

PS: Just read Naive's reply before commiting my post. Dear God, please, calm down. This is not a crusade with a prize for the winner. I see with your post that I seem to have utterly failed with the "different people, different views" aspect of my previous post. There are some good points you made and on a different day I would even agree to most, but the way you present your view as absolute seriously rubs me the wrong way. I'm glad that you're so firm in your belief and as there were more than a few phrases that I found mildly aggravating, I'll happily bow out of the thread before I start arguing in a non productive manner.

[Qc0Jh1axT]

Originally Posted by TwilightHack

Thanks Oberon, you're the first person here to cover all sides of the argument in an educated non shipping way. Its sad to see your post was torn apart so needlessly.

His post was full of holes, but since you two agree with each other, I can see why you have nothing else to offer but to shower him with invisible confetti and an ignorant agreement.

@Naive - I was writing up a counter post and realized that I have better things to do with my time rather then argue with someone who will fight by any means to make sure that their point is the only right point... so I cede for now. I'll just let you know before someone else rips you apart on it, that almost all of your arguments are based on self interpretation points.

I don't think this comment is necessary because points are taken apart to be addressed, you are sensitive to such matters when it happened. And all arguments for IchiOri are self-interpretation to the point they are wishful thinking.

Unless you can tell me right now that you're KT and then prove it, and say that everything you've said in your posts is the way that the manga is supposed to be interpreted as, I think its just a fallacy.

I think you misunderstand. What we are doing here is refuting your and Oberon's points and that is all there is to it. If we cannot convince you, then so be it. It won't bother us. One or two unconvinced people does not affect hundreds and thousands out there who actually believe in the main couple. Go ahead and assume it as a fallacy, we have no bound duty to make you a believer.

Note: I don't know how I came off as sensitive, I don't know how I was labeled as a shipper (recently), and I don't know why I almost started debating again.

And you don't know why you posted and presented yourself as sensitive, a shipper and debated in this thread. I don't know either.

[Naive]

@Twilighthack and Oberon

Hooray I Won!!!

Yay for IchiRuki!!! Thank you for acknowledging that my post was great!!! I knew it would connect with you guys!!! Thank you for the awesome feedback as well, I loved it!!! Thank you for admiring my faith in my ship, I appreciate it very much!!!

[Alea Misa]

Spoiler for Spoiler:

Great points Naive I really enjoy reading your response.

Just like he needed that beautiful and heartwarming speech. Just like he needed to be dragged to Orihime to promise to protect. And I agree, I don’t think Rukia was declaring her love for Ichigo with that speech, but it’s not as simple to categorize that speech as perfectly platonic. Meaning, maybe her words weren’t romantic necessary from her point of view, but the situation itself certainly was because it affirmed such a beautiful and passionate and deep bond. So I would categorize it as romantic because of the spark between them during her speech and his reaction. Again, she never overly said anything about love, but I certainly felt the chemistry.

I agree, I can see that speech seemed to be more geared towards revealing some 'intimate feelings,' that are only reserved for Ichigo. I can see how it would seem to be platonic, but I ask the question, why would someone like Rukia have a need to say, "...That's the man that you've been in my heart Ichigo..." when the boundaries are supposedly 'platonic friendship'? As the earlier chapters, Rukia had trouble expressing her feelings, especially affection, and now she commits herself into revealing part of her feelings and affection to Ichigo. It confirms that he is a special person in her heart, in my eyes is romantic. And the way Ichigo reacted, the way he just sprung up from his depression, and the tender expression that he gave her when she said it to him. Ichigo wants to be the man that is within her heart, because he has that passion for her in his heart as well. Why else would he do that in the first place? Nobody could break through those thick walls that he puts up, but Rukia. That is the connection I love to watch, and that is what gives depth and completion in their bond. They're able to touch each other's hearts in ways that no one else could.

[winry039]

i think ichigo and rukia are gonna end up together and orihime will end up with renji

[Mishasan]

Wow all this happened while i was away? damn lol I think Renji is going to end up alone or with someone other than Rukia

[TwilightHack]

Oh goodness, enjoy your victory in this imaginary world.

We'll see who's the last one laughing at the end of this arc.

And just for the sake of being labeled a shipper...

GO ICHI X ORI!!!!!

[Qc0Jh1axT]

Originally Posted by TwilightHack

Oh goodness, enjoy your victory in this imaginary world.

We will.

We'll see who's the last one laughing at the end of this arc.

We see it. It's us.

And just for the sake of being labeled a shipper...

GO ICHI X ORI!!!!!

Ichigo: RUKIA!!!!!~~~~~

[Naive]

Originally Posted by TwilightHack

Oh goodness, enjoy your victory in this imaginary world.

I don't see why you should protest . You basically handed it to us on a plate

We'll see who's the last one laughing at the end of this arc.

Spoiler for spoiler for manga:

As Qc0Jh1axT said, it'll be us. On the other hand, Orihime will be in HM with her future flame Ulquiorra. Don't cry too much though, Ulquiorra is quite hot

Originally Posted by Twilighthack

And just for the sake of being labeled a shipper...

GO ICHI X ORI!!!!!

You don't have the stamina to be a shipper so I wouldn't label you one. But in any case, wish all you want, IchiOri has as much chance of happening as ChizuOri. In both cases one partner has expressed extreme devotion and admiration for the other. So I view them as equal...Wait...I changed my mind.

ChizuOri has a higher chance of happening because at least Chizuru isn't afraid of confessing to her love interest while she's conscious.

[Scep]

^hello? Major Spoiler?

[Naive]

Originally Posted by Alea Misa

Great points Naive I really enjoy reading your response.



I agree, I can see that speech seemed to be more geared towards revealing some 'intimate feelings,' that are only reserved for Ichigo. I can see how it would seem to be platonic, but I ask the question, why would someone like Rukia have a need to say, "...That's the man that you've been in my heart Ichigo..." when the boundaries are supposedly 'platonic friendship'? As the earlier chapters, Rukia had trouble expressing her feelings, especially affection, and now she commits herself into revealing part of her feelings and affection to Ichigo. It confirms that he is a special person in her heart, in my eyes is romantic.

I'm glad you enjoyed reading the post, I had fun writing it Yes, it's a very intimate scene. It's not about Rukia confessing to Ichigo about her deep romantic feelings and her love for him, it's about her showing that he has a permanent place in her heart. It's about her showing that the Ichigo she knows is strong, confident, and the one who saved her from her execution and confidently told her that he'd beat up everyone in his way to rescue her. And you're so right, Rukia's always had trouble expressing her true feelings, so that makes the scene so much heartfelt and special in a lot of ways. And I agree, that confirmation is romantic because it's so raw and exposed. It's like she's baring her soul to him. This is kuchiki Rukia, the woman of many masks, and she's stripped down to words from the heart. T the very least it's a huge intimate moment in their relationship.

Originally Posted by Alea Misa

And the way Ichigo reacted, the way he just sprung up from his depression, and the tender expression that he gave her when she said it to him. Ichigo wants to be the man that is within her heart, because he has that passion for her in his heart as well. Why else would he do that in the first place? Nobody could break through those thick walls that he puts up, but Rukia. That is the connection I love to watch, and that is what gives depth and completion in their bond. They're able to touch each other's hearts in ways that no one else could.

Yes, it was automatic the way he reacted. He immediately snapped up from his depression. However, I think 25% of the reaction was a result from the words and the other 75% was from the fact that Rukia was the one who said those words. Had it been any other person they couldn't have been significant, because Rukia is the woman he protected and saved. Rukia is the woman who he gained all that power for and fought a whole Society for. Yes, the connection they have is so deep and it's just more interesting and passionate to watch than any other connection in the manga? Why would KT waste it and go for IchiOri which has not even a 25th of this intensity, rich history, and chemistry? And to argue that IchiHime has more of a chance of happening based on one-sided feelings I feel is simply illogical.

[Alea Misa]

Spoiler for Spoiler:

I'm glad you enjoyed reading the post, I had fun writing it Yes, it's a very intimate scene. It's not about Rukia confessing to Ichigo about her deep romantic feelings and her love for him, it's about her showing that he has a permanent place in her heart. It's about her showing that the Ichigo she knows is strong, confident, and the one who saved her from her execution and confidently told her that he'd beat up everyone in his way to rescue her. And you're so right, Rukia's always had trouble expressing her true feelings, so that makes the scene so much heartfelt and special in a lot of ways. And I agree, that confirmation is romantic because it's so raw and exposed. It's like she's baring her soul to him. This is kuchiki Rukia, the woman of many masks, and she's stripped down to words from the heart. T the very least it's a huge intimate moment in their relationship.

Yes, it was automatic the way he reacted. He immediately snapped up from his depression. However, I think 25% of the reaction was a result from the words and the other 75% was from the fact that Rukia was the one who said those words. Had it been any other person they couldn't have been significant, because Rukia is the woman he protected and saved. Rukia is the woman who he gained all that power for and fought a whole Society for. Yes, the connection they have is so deep and it's just more interesting and passionate to watch than any other connection in the manga? Why would KT waste it and go for IchiOri which has not even a 25th of this intensity, rich history, and chemistry? And to argue that IchiHime has more of a chance of happening based on one-sided feelings I feel is simply illogical.

^_^
Definitely...also, Rukia is the one who healed him, and dried up the never ceasing gloom and rain in his world, so that he would/could get stronger.
As for Inoue's feelings, I think that its something for her to learn and grow from to realize her own strength, and define who she is and her place within the group. She has always struggled with that issue. Kind of like Chad.

[DarkHollowIchigo]

Ichigo + Rukia

[Nightengale]

I'm going to get shot to hell for this, but...

Byakuya x Rukia. (( There, I said it. ))

Grimmjow x Orihime. (( Likewise. ))

And right now I'm strangely divided on Ichigo x Tatsuki or Tatsuki x Ulqi, for some strange reason floating in my head that I even paired up Ulqi with Tatsuki.

[SaraPandora27]

Originally Posted by Naive

@Twilighthack and Oberon

Hooray I Won!!!

Yay for IchiRuki!!! Thank you for acknowledging that my post was great!!! I knew it would connect with you guys!!! Thank you for the awesome feedback as well, I loved it!!! Thank you for admiring my faith in my ship, I appreciate it very much!!!

Your post up there. Speaks my mind. I'm so proud of you!

On a more serious note, I do agree that the transition of Orihime's feelings from a crush to an all-out love seems forced, too sudden. If Ichigo was awake, he would probably be gobsmacked. At loss for words.

Also, if you compare the between the rescue mission (Operation Rescue Rukia / Operation Rescue Orihime), there's a difference in Ichigo's tone. In ORO, it's more like rescuing his friend but if you read closely, ORR is more of a personal mission for Ichigo. The way he trained so hard and refuse to give up. The amount of faith he put in his ability to RESCUE Rukia HIMSELF.

ORO is more like a team effort and so far, I have never, ever, EVER read any of Ichigo's monologue on Orihime. Or discussing his feelings about Orihime with anyone. Or have any significant flashback about his relationship with Orihime. I wonder why

I believe that IchiRuki supporters are those who enjoys the subtlety of the relationship, the cute banter between the two of them and the unspoken feelings they have for each other.