(CR) Yesterday wo Utatte (Sing "Yesterday" for Me)

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

The issue with Shinako's career is my biggest concern with Rou vis a vis Shinako. He's a student at her school - any sort of relationship is a non-starter on those grounds alone. But why hasn't Shinako raised that issue with him? I think it's a little strange that so many are forgiving of Haru's (fine - debatably if that makes you feel better) stalking behavior but intolerant of Rou's immaturity. He's what, 16? It's probably not realistic to expect him to take a mature outlook on all this.

Honestly, some of the takes on Rou vs. Haru, just kind of make my laugh in a tired sort of way. I was 100% expecting this double standard, but it's still funny to see it. If the genders were reversed and Rikuo was a woman and Haru a dude, constantly following Rikuo around, I'd bet good money more people would be telling Haru to get a clue.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Cloudedmind

Honestly, some of the takes on Rou vs. Haru, just kind of make my laugh in a tired sort of way. I was 100% expecting this double standard, but it's still funny to see it. If the genders were reversed and Rikuo was a woman and Haru a dude, constantly following Rikuo around, I'd bet good money more people would be telling Haru to get a clue.

Without a doubt.

[Nachtwandler]

I don't get people hasting Harun (it may be a bit of bias because I like this type of girls IRL, though).

Shinako's behavior is much more disturbing here IMHO. Her indecisivness hurts a bunch of people and she knows it but barely try to change abnything. And knowm a trauma from the past is not enough to justify it.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Cloudedmind

If the genders were reversed and Rikuo was a woman and Haru a dude, constantly following Rikuo around, I'd bet good money more people would be telling Haru to get a clue.

Well, I could also say that there's also a double standard in the way Rou is being apparently left off the hook for his behaviour on account of his age. But, as suggested, I'm more than willing to agree to disagree.

On a side note, I've been thinking a bit more about the significance of the title and its connection to the story's themes, and along the way, I came across a very interesting article on Japan Times on the impact of Beatlemania on Japan in the 1960s.

Yesterday: When the 'Beatles typhoon' hit Japan

Four young Englishmen conquered Japan 50 years ago — with music. They were, of course, the Beatles — the biggest pop act in the world at the time.

Their shows in Japan in 1966 came at a pivotal point in the group's career. The novelty of "Beatlemania" had worn off. Cannabis and LSD were taking the four Liverpudlians into new realms of consciousness, and their increasingly complex music was becoming harder to perform live.

The Beatles played at the Nippon Budokan arena in Tokyo on June 30, July 1 (2pm and 6.30pm) and July 2 (2pm and 6.30pm) as part of a world tour. About 43,000 people saw the band perform in Japan.

Their visit can be seen as part of Japan's postwar re-emergence on the world stage, starting with the 1964 Tokyo Olympics and culminating with Expo '70 in Osaka.

"The Beatles' shows in Japan were a social phenomenon," says [former?] Sony Music Japan executive Aki Tanaka. "They led to the birth of a real Japanese rock music scene, where the musicians not only performed songs by somebody else, but also wrote their own material."

One of the enduring myths of the Beatles' Budokan shows is that the band could hear how sloppy their live playing had become because their Japanese fans were quiet compared with Western audiences.

Mr Tanaka says the crowd was indeed more restrained than the British and American audiences he'd seen on TV.

"However, that does not mean Japanese were not excited about the show," he says. "The way we express ourselves is rather mild."

But Mr Tanaka disagrees with those who say the Beatles played badly.

"They were always a great live band, having performed so many times in so many different places starting from small clubs in Hamburg," he says. "The Beatles seemed rather relaxed by the warm response from the Japanese audience."

THE JAPAN TIMES

(Note: I had left out from the above extract some intriguing background about how some right-wing nuts in Japan were opposed to the Beatles performing in the Budokan. The police were reportedly keeping a close watch on the audiences for any signs of snipers who might try to assassinate the super-stars.)

I was trying to ascertain the possible extent of any Beatles influence on Kei Toume (this was before we established that she was inspired by the song of a Japanese rock group). Anyway, Toume was born in 1970, four years after the Beatles performed in the Budokan. I have no way of knowing how popular the Beatles could have been in 1980s Japan, but my guess would be, probably not very significant.

I was born in 1975. I was aware of the Beatles in my teenage years, but by that time, "glam rock" bands like Guns 'n' Roses, Aerosmith and Metallica were very much more dominant on the airwaves and MTV charts. And then the 1990s came, and R&B and hip-hop came to dominate (and soured my experience with pop-music ever since; that's my opinion, and I am absolutely not sorry about it!).

Given a character like Kinoshita (Rikuo's former co-worker at the combi store), I feel relatively certain Toume leans more towards the heavy metal of the 80s than the Beatles rock of the 60s.

==========

Anyway, here's how I'm beginning to see the pieces of the puzzle fitting together. The views are my own, and barring access to English translations of any interviews that Toume may have given in the past, I have no way of verifying if she had consciously or unconsciously thought the same way.

Personally, I found it significant that the anime adaptation chose to maintain the time period of the manga. If it were any other romance drama, the time period wouldn't have made any difference. Love triangles and the like are common enough devices that could work in any era, be it 2020 or the late 1990s.

But the late 1990s were a significant period in contemporary Japanese history, as I'm sure most Japanophiles would at least be minimally aware. The economic and dislocation wrought by the bursting of the Japanese property bubble in the late 80s and early 90s scarred an entire generation of young Japanese, and changed their view of the world and society forever.

For one thing, young Japanese graduates, for the first time in decades, could no longer count on lifetime employment. Many of them, for the first time in years, soon found themselves under-employed as store clerks and part-time labourers.

The difference over 20 years was stark, going from the booming 80s when Japan was the leading Asian economy, to the gloomy 90s, when nothing seemed to work properly any more.

Knowing about the changes and their impact is quite different from appreciating just how destabilising the change was. Think of the Class of 2020, graduating right now into a world economy brought to its knees by the pandemic, and you get a better sense of how the socio-economic impact could paralyse an entire generation of youth into thinking, "Why bother? Everything is falling apart anyway."

In Japan, the social contract between the people and the government began to fray, and this had a concurrent toll on families and households. I haven't checked the figures, but I won't be surprised to find an accelerating rate of divorce in Japan at this time. At the same time, there was the growing realisation that the country was sitting on a pension-fund time-bomb, due to the looming silver tsunami.

Most young adults in Japan in the late 1990s probably felt adrift and filled with uncertainties about what to do with themselves.

All the varieties of issues stemming from the economic stagnation have since been explored in various forms of popular media, and an entire generation of youth has since grown up amid the opportunities thrown up by the times. There are teenagers today who can't imagine a time before Wikipedia, TikTok, Instagram and the World Wide Web, let alone visualise the sense of disorientation felt by a displaced generation.


And that, to me, encapsulates the socio-economic situation that we find Rikuo in, right at the beginning of the story. He represents the ennui of his generation of Japanese youth. Haru is likely the victim of either a divorce or the death of a father-figure (if not father), and an absent mother — a consequence of emerging family norms during a changing time.

For both of them, "yesterday" was a time to pine for, a time of certainties and clear directions that was no longer available to them. Add to this backdrop, the much more clear-cut "yesterdays" that chain Shinako and Rou to the past, and you essentially have a story about four main characters who are trapped by the memories and consequences of the past. There is no roadmap for the future, and they'd just have to figure their way out of their messy present.

==========

Circling back to the Beatles, by the time they finally arrived in Japan, as the article I shared described, they were past their prime, and their gig in Tokyo was part of their last few world tours.

The Beatles are very much the symbol of a different time of change and disruption. They belonged to the Flower Generation, and theirs was a time of counter-culture revolt, of free sex and drugs. They, too, belonged in a time of youth questioning received wisdom, and similarly uncertain about what the new future would bring, amid the fears of nuclear armageddon.

It would take almost another 20 more years before the UK finally broke free of crippling socialism to regain some semblance of economic dynamism. The US had to go through the further disillusionment of the Vietnam War, before Reaganism brought back some semblance of national confidence in the 80s.

Japan travelled a different course, and I'm more inclined than before to see "Sing 'Yesterday' For Me" as a product of its time. It's an anime that's oddly anachronistic for this contemporary era.

And it's probably because I'm now closer than ever before to being an old fuddy-duddy that I appreciate this story so much more.

[Guardian Enzo]

I've seen a lot of head-scratching stuff on ASF, but seeing that The Beatles were "past their prime" in 1966 - 1966! - is a new one on me.

I'll set aside the romanticizing of Thatcherism and Reaganism, as that's a rabbit hole better suited to a different venue than this. But Japan today doesn't see The Beatles as some relic of hippie subculture. They're if anything more popular here than at any time since they were still a recording entity, and probably more revered in Japan than they are in America or even the U.K.. This country is nuts about The Beatles and that's never changed.

The other salient point is that while Japan certainly experienced a "lost generation" phenomenon (Rikuo and Shinako would have been solidly in what's generally regarded as TLG, Haru and Rou at the tail end) very little has changed economically since the late 90s. Japan has experienced virtually no inflation and no economic growth since the boom collapsed, and young Japanese today face for all intents and purposes the same economic reality as Rikuo's generation. They have a more global perspective thanks to the rise of the internet and social media, but domestically shockingly little has changed.

For that reason, I think it's a mistake to chalk Yesterday o Utatte up as some kind of period piece that wouldn't hold up if the setting were changed. I think the time period is important for atmospherics, but the story could have been set in the 2010s were relatively minimal fundamantal changes.

[Kanon]

The story would have had a harder time working in modern times, but I think it's only because of technology. How many times have we seen the characters waiting outside for another character to come home? Add cell phones and all that gets removed. The character's dynamics would have changed a lot as a result. It would have probably hurt Haru's character the most. Call her whatever you want, but waiting hours for Rikuo to finish work or come home isn't something anyone would do. Sending a text? That takes no effort.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

The issue with Shinako's career is my biggest concern with Rou vis a vis Shinako. He's a student at her school - any sort of relationship is a non-starter on those grounds alone. But why hasn't Shinako raised that issue with him? I think it's a little strange that so many are forgiving of Haru's (fine - debatably if that makes you feel better) stalking behavior but intolerant of Rou's immaturity. He's what, 16? It's probably not realistic to expect him to take a mature outlook on all this.

You know I’m glad you were at least willing to concede that much but there isn’t much point if you’re trying to ask what my perspective is:
“I think it's strange that you're forgiving that man for murdering his wife.”
“Well I don’t think he murdered his wife because X-Y-Z”
“Fine: I think it's strange that you're forgiving that man for debatably murdering his wife.”

What is it about Haru’s behaviour exactly that you’re saying I’m too forgiving towards? The fact that she’s a little annoying? Yeah I can forgive that: It’s clearly not bothering Rikou as much as you think it is and I don’t see any reason to override his judgement. The fact that she’s hurting herself pursuing a guy she can’t get? Yeah, I can forgive that too. At the end of the day, Haru’s actions are only harming herself. This is completely different ball game to what Rou is doing which has far far far more serious repercussions. You say that it’s unfair to expect him to control his emotions because he’s just a hormonal teen but I heavily disagree. I still remember what it was like to be a dumb teen his age and I still understood how serious something like that could be. And he doesn’t appear to be an idiot otherwise so I see no reason to infantilise him. Again, I definitely don’t agree with TinyRedLeaf’s take on Rou and find him largely sympathetic but the double standard is definitely not what you’re convinced it is.

[Guardian Enzo]

So what you're saying is, your opinion is definitely right and a dissenting opinion thus by default definitely wrong.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

very little has changed economically since the late 90s. Japan has experienced virtually no inflation and no economic growth since the boom collapsed, and young Japanese today face for all intents and purposes the same economic reality as Rikuo's generation.

The job market today for new graduates should be more competitive than in 1995 because of the decline in younger age cohorts.

Sadly, I can only find reports for ages 0-15, 15-64, and 65+. It's the 18-29 demographic that we're probably most interested in. Still, if we look at the size of the 0-14 population in 1975, we find that they constituted 24% of the population that year. By 1995, it had fallen to 16%. Today it's about 12%.

http://116.91.128.50/english/data/ha...df/2017all.pdf

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by Cloudedmind

Honestly, some of the takes on Rou vs. Haru, just kind of make my laugh in a tired sort of way. I was 100% expecting this double standard, but it's still funny to see it. If the genders were reversed and Rikuo was a woman and Haru a dude, constantly following Rikuo around, I'd bet good money more people would be telling Haru to get a clue.

I think it's less a gender double-standard and more the question of what is appropriate behavior for people who are really interested in someone and want to be around and pursue them to a significant extent...and contrasted with how Rikuo and Shinako handle their feelings.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

So what you're saying is, your opinion is definitely right and a dissenting opinion thus by default definitely wrong.

Dude, you asked for my perspective and I gave you it. What is it that you even want? If the dissenting opinion you're asking me to consider credible is that double standards are the only reason why I view Haru and Rou's circumstances differently, then no that's not gonna happen and I have no idea why you think I would.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Frontier

I think it's less a gender double-standard and more the question of what is appropriate behavior for people who are really interested in someone and want to be around and pursue them to a significant extent...and contrasted with how Rikuo and Shinako handle their feelings.

Exactly. In the first place, Haru isn't even a stalker, she approached Rikuo and was upfront about her feelings for him. She was very pushy which he isn't used to, but she never crossed any lines. When she learned that Rikuo was in love with Shinako, she never once antagonized her and instead acknowledged her as a rival. Now think about what Rou did what he learned of Rikuo's existence. That's the reason Haru is a hundred times more likable than him, not because she has a vagina. It has nothing to do with gender, they're just different people.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Haak

Dude, you asked for my perspective and I gave you it. What is it that you even want? If the dissenting opinion you're asking me to consider credible is that double standards are the only reason why I view Haru and Rou's circumstances differently, then no that's not gonna happen and I have no idea why you think I would.

How can someone respond to "This is my opinion and it's definitely right, and yours is definitely wrong"? What possible difference could any response make in the face of that?

Originally Posted by Frontier

I think it's less a gender double-standard and more the question of what is appropriate behavior for people who are really interested in someone and want to be around and pursue them to a significant extent...and contrasted with how Rikuo and Shinako handle their feelings.

So hitting someone who's not your romantic partner in the head with a milk crate for supposedly being with someone else is appropriate behavior?

[Blueknight78]

here my tought:

I think both sides are wrong:

rikuo's is wrong, because he don't make "that much clear" about he don't want date her or be her boyfriend, while him said which he not was "interested in her" he never made clear to her to "stop" her attempts and also all of her harassements and jealous moments, ofcourse he also got a little jealous one time and that is the issue if him really don't want to have anything with her and still only love shinako make it really clear to her make her stop her attempts, make clear which he only want at best "be friends" nothing more, if him do that then the things could work much better for him but due to rikuo's being "too passive" and never take any steps towards anything it make more hard ofcourse, because his nature, but still his fault.

haru: her bahvious at the beginning and sometimes is clear "stalking", remember in a flashback she "following him in secret" and not was just "one time also the fact which "at the beginning" know so much about his private life", while some peoples could calll "love" still creep", being followed secretly many times is "not normal" this is not how you "learn about someone" at last not in a "health way" go ask direct to the person, ofcourse we are talking about "japan" the country of stalker, were is pretty common for peoples "follow secretly and spy over the life of peoples they are interested, be romantic or "idols", haru is a big pushover person, which is a issue she act many times as if she already his "girlfriend or wife or something like that, by demanding him to say about "almost every of his steps", while love can make you make some "bad moves" and i can understand it, it not remove the fact which many of haru actions are totally wrong and she act like a bitch by trying to "controll" his life and demanding know every step of him or get mad everytime she meet another girl or do something which she feel like he must report her, they are at best now "friends" not even "best friends", she can't try to control so much his life by control i don't just means decide for him what he can do or not, but being mad and acting like he did something "wrong" when he clearly did not wrong since they are not in any relationship, she need to change her way to approach him if she really want him to fall for her, because while that way could also have some "chance of victory" is a very complicated and dangerous way" were she will get hurt and will hurt him many times with her selfishs, while at last she is not a reall bitch to the point of attack shinako or not trying to go in "dirty" ways to win she still doing bad things in her own way which diserver to "change" because her behavious like rikuo also is not a good exemple, both of them have problems and it is what make things complicated.


now the big real issue here without any doubts still being shinako" because she is the thing making all the big troubles because she still too much trapped in the past and being unable to true move on, being honest the fact which she still going to the house of the dead guy almost every day and not being open to new relationships show how much bad she is too, because since she is unable to move on, she is making both rikuo and ruo suffer, specially ruo, because she see him almost every day and keep even not being her desires, nurturing ruo romantic feelings towards her, making hard for both her and him move on from that sort of "toxic" situation the same goes for rikuo, she is deep attached to rikuo and also probably harbour some feelings toward him but again the fact which she is deep trapped in her "past" make hard for her to move on also rikuo being "too passive" and not trying to make her "move on" make things even hard.

we are trapped with a weird square drama romance, were all of then have some issues and are that issues which are making things "bad for then" and hurting then a lot since they are not making too much advance to "change it", because that is how they are making hard to have any "change" in the status quo of that mess, ofcourse they at one point will develop something and start to break that bad circle around but it will take time and will keep making a lot of bad things happening as they learn "how to improve.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

here my tought:

I think both sides are wrong:

rikuo's is wrong, because he don't make "that much clear" about he don't want date her or be her boyfriend, while him said which he not was "interested in her" he never made clear to her to "stop" her attempts and also all of her harassements and jealous moments, ofcourse he also got a little jealous one time and that is the issue if him really don't want to have anything with her and still only love shinako make it really clear to her make her stop her attempts, make clear which he only want at best "be friends" nothing more, if him do that then the things could work much better for him but due to rikuo's being "too passive" and never take any steps towards anything it make more hard ofcourse, because his nature, but still his fault.

haru: her bahvious at the beginning and sometimes is clear "stalking", remember in a flashback she "following him in secret" and not was just "one time also the fact which "at the beginning" know so much about his private life", while some peoples could calll "love" still creep", being followed secretly many times is "not normal" this is not how you "learn about someone" at last not in a "health way" go ask direct to the person, ofcourse we are talking about "japan" the country of stalker, were is pretty common for peoples "follow secretly and spy over the life of peoples they are interested, be romantic or "idols", haru is a big pushover person, which is a issue she act many times as if she already his "girlfriend or wife or something like that, by demanding him to say about "almost every of his steps", while love can make you make some "bad moves" and i can understand it, it not remove the fact which many of haru actions are totally wrong and she act like a bitch by trying to "controll" his life and demanding know every step of him or get mad everytime she meet another girl or do something which she feel like he must report her, they are at best now "friends" not even "best friends", she can't try to control so much his life by control i don't just means decide for him what he can do or not, but being mad and acting like he did something "wrong" when he clearly did not wrong since they are not in any relationship, she need to change her way to approach him if she really want him to fall for her, because while that way could also have some "chance of victory" is a very complicated and dangerous way" were she will get hurt and will hurt him many times with her selfishs, while at last she is not a reall bitch to the point of attack shinako or not trying to go in "dirty" ways to win she still doing bad things in her own way which diserver to "change" because her behavious like rikuo also is not a good exemple, both of them have problems and it is what make things complicated.


now the big real issue here without any doubts still being shinako" because she is the thing making all the big troubles because she still too much trapped in the past and being unable to true move on, being honest the fact which she still going to the house of the dead guy almost every day and not being open to new relationships show how much bad she is too, because since she is unable to move on, she is making both rikuo and ruo suffer, specially ruo, because she see him almost every day and keep even not being her desires, nurturing ruo romantic feelings towards her, making hard for both her and him move on from that sort of "toxic" situation the same goes for rikuo, she is deep attached to rikuo and also probably harbour some feelings toward him but again the fact which she is deep trapped in her "past" make hard for her to move on also rikuo being "too passive" and not trying to make her "move on" make things even hard.

we are trapped with a weird square drama romance, were all of then have some issues and are that issues which are making things "bad for then" and hurting then a lot since they are not making too much advance to "change it", because that is how they are making hard to have any "change" in the status quo of that mess, ofcourse they at one point will develop something and start to break that bad circle around but it will take time and will keep making a lot of bad things happening as they learn "how to improve.

I agree.

Now I also would add Ruo's dad to the list. He should just tell Shinako to stop coming around and move on. Though, he is getting cooked meals out of it. It's not helping his surviving son any.

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

So hitting someone who's not your romantic partner in the head with a milk crate for supposedly being with someone else is appropriate behavior?

Somehow I knew you'd bring that up .

That honestly wasn't what I was referring to when I was talking about how Haru was behaving.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

I think both sides are wrong

Yup. But...

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

specially ruo, because she see him almost every day and keep even not being her desires, nurturing ruo romantic feelings towards her, making hard for both her and him move on from that sort of "toxic" situation

I disagree on this point. Shinako had been keeping a distance from Rou, on Rikuo's advice. The passage of time is not obvious in this anime, but the impression I had is that Shinako had been avoiding Rikuo for quite a while after that awkward night (prompting her colleague to ask if she's trying to "test" him), and even before that, she had been avoiding Rou and had stopped going to his home. In short, she had stopped seeing Rou for even longer than she had stopped seeing Rikuo. So, it's not like she was unaware of her situation with the boy and she certaintly wasn't acting consciously to enable his crush.

My impression at the end of Episode 8 was that Shinako realised she had to confront the issue no matter how uncomfortable she was about it (her exact words, from 16:35, "I haven't been to Rou's place for a while"/"I can't keep running [away] forever"). We will have to wait and see, of course, but I'm guessing that she went over to Rou's home that night to talk things over once and for all. Whether she'd succeed, well, that is also something we'd have to wait and see, assuming that I guessed correctly.

And talking this through would be the adult thing to do. Avoiding the issue would simply allow the problem to fester with no definitive conclusion, which is harmful in its own way.

Originally Posted by Kanon

The story would have had a harder time working in modern times, but I think it's only because of technology. How many times have we seen the characters waiting outside for another character to come home? Add cell phones and all that gets removed. The character's dynamics would have changed a lot as a result. It would have probably hurt Haru's character the most. Call her whatever you want, but waiting hours for Rikuo to finish work or come home isn't something anyone would do. Sending a text? That takes no effort.

The difference in technology is, in my view, a minor issue that can be easily written around, if the writing team wanted to. Don't forget that, as far as I recall, Rikuo doesn't have Haru's number, and he hasn't asked for it either. Without a number to dial, he wouldn't have been able to text her about having missed their movie date because he overslept, even if he had a mobile phone.

Actually, on the topic of phone numbers, it's interesting to note that Haru has had Rikuo's home number for the longest time now, but she's never called him on that line. There's an important reason for that — she got the number from Kinoshita and not Rikuo personally. In her mind, she probably felt that it was wrong to exploit that advantage, because it would be presumptuous of her. Rikuo never gave her such permission so, in my view, Haru acted sensibly in respecting the existing boundaries between her and Rikuo.

It's also interesting to me that, at the movie date when she was stood up, three possibilities came up to Haru: 1) Rikuo forgot and went to work; 2) he deliberately stood her up; or 3) something bad might have happened to him. Why would the third possibility even crop up? It probably goes back to the circumstances in which she lost her father (or father figure, not clear yet which is which). And that makes me wonder even more about what she sees in Rikuo; does he somehow remind her of her lost father?

My beef with Rou is primarily that he has no respect for boundaries, unlike Haru. And the fact that he is the guy in that relationship with Shinako, in my view, makes it that much worse. So, yes, I readily admit to a gender bias in this case, and it's an important issue to me because I strongly feel that attitudes towards women won't change unless we begin addressing the way we portray relationships in media. But, again, as I've said before, I am quite ready to agree to disagree on this point. It's a complex issue that won't be resolved in discussion like this, after all!

Anyways, as for my thoughts about what the "Yesterday" in the title represents, as I've said from the outset, the views are my own, and I make no claim that they are representative of what the mangaka wanted to convey. I would just add that the element of nostalgia is strong in this story, and the time period it's set in plays a big role in creating that impression.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I've seen a lot of head-scratching stuff on ASF, but seeing that The Beatles were "past their prime" in 1966 - 1966! - is a new one on me.

Well, yes, I readily concede I was careless with my words. What I wanted to express is that The Beatles had hit a peak by that time, and they were already changing as a group and as individuals.

And, sure, The Beatles may still be a significant influence to this day, just as Elvis remains a big influence even today, and just as much as he had been a tremendous influence on The Beatles in their time, but you can't make a claim that either of them are still mainstream. Both remain historically significant and I certainly am aware of their niche appeal even in Japan, but their time has well and truly passed, and belong in "Yesterday".

And oh, I am also more than aware of the drawbacks of Thatcherism and Reaganism, especially in the light of the growing backlash against neo-liberalism, but I wasn't about to digress that far. My main point was simple: the 90s were significantly different from the 80s, and the 70s, and the 60s in many ways, culturally and economically.

Also, you missed my point: Yes, Japan remains trapped in economic and social stasis, but it's been 20 years since the turn of the century, and an entire generation has grown up and come of age since then, with no personal memories of what things were like before year 2000. That's an entire generation of youth that has had 20 years to adjust to its new realities.

That was not a luxury enjoyed by the Japanese youth of the mid- to late-90s. And the difference for them would have been much more stark, as they would have grown up with personal memories of an ascendant Japan in the 80s, only to have all of that dashed by the time they came of age and entered the workforce. The adjustments for their generation were strikingly new, and that much more painful as a result.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by orion

I agree.

Now I also would add Ruo's dad to the list. He should just tell Shinako to stop coming around and move on. Though, he is getting cooked meals out of it. It's not helping his surviving son any.

yeah ruo's dad taking advantage of shinako to make food and take care of the house while he is out like a sort of "daughter in law" is not helping either, that house situation to be honest would ending being something i would see in "some sort of hentai animes", be the dad or the son or even both , while is good to have her helping him, me must make clear which she is doing that not because she feel in debt because of the died person which is pretty much what is looks like rater than keep her doing it for that bad reason which is hurting his son and i believe which "deep down" the father must know about his son feelings and "maybe" using it to give him a chance to have her and true making sure she will be his "daughter in law to take care of the house "forever" .

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

I disagree on this point. Shinako had been keeping a distance from Rou, on Rikuo's advice. The passage of time is not obvious in this anime, but the impression I had is that Shinako had been avoiding Rikuo for quite a while after that awkward night (prompting her colleague to ask if she's trying to "test" him), and even before that, she had been avoiding Rou and had stopped going to his home. In short, she had stopped seeing Rou for even longer than she had stopped seeing Rikuo. So, it's not like she was unaware of her situation with the boy and she certaintly wasn't acting consciously to enable his crush.

My impression at the end of Episode 8 was that Shinako realised she had to confront the issue no matter how uncomfortable she was about it (her exact words, from 16:35, "I haven't been to Rou's place for a while"/"I can't keep running [away] forever"). We will have to wait and see, of course, but I'm guessing that she went over to Rou's home that night to talk things over once and for all. Whether she'd succeed, well, that is also something we'd have to wait and see, assuming that I guessed correctly.

And talking this through would be the adult thing to do. Avoiding the issue would simply allow the problem to fester with no definitive conclusion, which is harmful in its own way.

She avoided him not because "she made any progress" but pretty much because she get scared and don't know what to do as rikuo did that sometimes which again is a bad thing, but then after talk with rikuo she decided to go again to the house and at start behavious as "normally", now we really know if she gonna really do the "right step" in the right direction or will be like rikuo and get scared and step down in the chance of improve things.

this is something which both shinako and rikuo have in common, they are pretty insecure and passive and a sort of "stuck in not improve they lifes and confront they issues, they both are scared of "change the quo status" themselfs and wait for the "other" do the move" which is a big issue both of them have, but it's seens even worse in shinkao cases because she stuck with a "dead crush" which not was even her true boyfriend, while rikuo problem is being struck with "alive peoples", and while i do understand which love is something complicated to the point of some peoples loving so much which would remain "alone forever" than find a new "love", still more easy to move on from a dead people than a live one which is more easy to "haunt you" than a dead one.

[Guardian Enzo]

I think it's very harsh to expect Ruo's dad to cut off Shinako. To him, she's literally like a daughter. They love each other and she's been like a part of his family since she was a little girl (and if his eldest had survived, would literally have become part of it). I'm not sure it's realistic to expect either of them to cut that off for Rou's sake (or any other reason).

I do believe Shinako is the fulcrum of this lever of dysfunction right now - her actions are freezing both Rikuo and Rou in their tracks. I think she realizes that herself. The problem is being aware of it doesn't mean that there are any easy solutions.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I think it's very harsh to expect Ruo's dad to cut off Shinako. To him, she's literally like a daughter. They love each other and she's been like a part of his family since she was a little girl (and if his eldest had survived, would literally have become part of it). I'm not sure it's realistic to expect either of them to cut that off for Rou's sake (or any other reason).

I do believe Shinako is the fulcrum of this lever of dysfunction right now - her actions are freezing both Rikuo and Rou in their tracks. I think she realizes that herself. The problem is being aware of it doesn't mean that there are any easy solutions.

i can understand this, as i told my issue is "how he is doing with the situation, if him is accepting her really as a daughter" because he really see her like that or if him is aware of "why she is there which is more like because of her stuck with the "dead guy" and also somehow is "stuck with that too" and using her as a scape goath since she aways acted as her "daughter in law", that could be a issue, and that could be needed to be adressed and he try to help her "get over it" and that don't means which she "must stop of coming to his home" and where is her "actually true parents, if they are still alive she also care so much for then like that aswell, because if they are dead ok she is using him as "replacement which is fine since she grew with him and i don't mind it, but if they are alive is weird she dedicate more time with ruos family than her own family taking in account which she "dont hate then if they are alive and she have a "health and normal relationship with then.

the issue which him is "how her "ties" with his family are being handled by him and if him is aware of his "young son" feelings toward her and how he is dealing with it, that is the issue for me, how much he is part of that mess of bad equation.