Mobile Suit Gundam 00 Second Season - Episode 25 [END] Discussion / Poll

[AnimeFangirl]

Finished! Except for the movie, which promises to finally explain what the whole Jupiter thing was about. I'll save final comments on the series until I've watched it.

The jump from the end of the series to "We have a new president and everyone's happy-happy" was really sudden. I hope the movie will explain how things got to that stage. What happened to the rest of the Federation top brass, why did Homer kill himself, how come Katharon is on the council now, and so on. Did Kati have the clout to make all those changes by herself? If not, who were her backers and who was she talking to in the end?

It seems like the world was getting on well enough and then the Gundams came and messed things up until the world unified, which led to even more people getting killed, which led to the Gundams killing even more people, but somehow everything worked out because Setsuna used miracle particles to make it work out. So did he keep using the particles until everyone on earth decided to work together to rebuild or what? Maybe the movie will explain.

The final battle was suitably epic at first. I liked the design and coloring of Ribbons' Gundam, and he gave the 00 a run for its money. All was well until they both changed into near-identical mobile suits. And while I was trying to figure out who was who, the kids started singing and Marina started talking on top of that. At least that part was short.

Patrick survived! And married Kati! That's great, I couldn't bear to lose him after losing both Tieria and Colonel Smirnov. And everyone else lived happily ever after, the end.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by AnimeFangirl

Finished! Except for the movie, which promises to finally explain what the whole Jupiter thing was about. I'll save final comments on the series until I've watched it.

The jump from the end of the series to "We have a new president and everyone's happy-happy" was really sudden. I hope the movie will explain how things got to that stage. What happened to the rest of the Federation top brass, why did Homer kill himself, how come Katharon is on the council now, and so on. Did Kati have the clout to make all those changes by herself? If not, who were her backers and who was she talking to in the end?

It seems like the world was getting on well enough and then the Gundams came and messed things up until the world unified, which led to even more people getting killed, which led to the Gundams killing even more people, but somehow everything worked out because Setsuna used miracle particles to make it work out. So did he keep using the particles until everyone on earth decided to work together to rebuild or what? Maybe the movie will explain.

The final battle was suitably epic at first. I liked the design and coloring of Ribbons' Gundam, and he gave the 00 a run for its money. All was well until they both changed into near-identical mobile suits. And while I was trying to figure out who was who, the kids started singing and Marina started talking on top of that. At least that part was short.

Patrick survived! And married Kati! That's great, I couldn't bear to lose him after losing both Tieria and Colonel Smirnov. And everyone else lived happily ever after, the end.

There's nothing to explain. The A-Laws were using Veda's information control to hide their evil deeds, murdering civilians and various war crimes. After the final battle, it fell into the hands of Katharon and Kati who used it to bring the aforementioned to the public eye. Related personnel and accomplices were arrested. Homer, as the commander of the A-Laws and complicit in the scheme of the innovators, committed suicide rather than stand trial for his crimes. With this reversal, Katharon went from rebel anarchists to revolutionary heroes. As its leader, Klaus was probably offered a political position for his merits. Kati didn't have any backers. She chose to support Katharon in the final battle. Obviously, she wasn't tried for treason afterwards and got promoted to general. She was talking to Andrei Smirnov.

The world was as peaceful as it was with three world superpowers playing a zer-sum game with plenty of smaller countries like Krugis suffering from civil war and other third world problems. CB's interventions never explicitly harmed civilians. The A-Laws murdered countless innocent people willy nilly and the innovators controlled everything while regular people lived their lives blissfully unaware like cattle. CB's war against the A-Laws again never directly harmed civilians.

There was nothing "near identical" about 0 gundam and Exia. You saw the latter for the entirety of the first season.

You know for a guy who presumably binge-watched this, your post indicates a disturbing lack of attention to detail.

[AnimeFangirl]

I knew the whole point of the final mission was to recover Veda and expose all the misdeeds of the Federation/A-LAWS. They only said it like 100 times. But it's strange to me how getting the truth out = it was A-LAWS that was bad, the Federation are the good guys! = Everything hunky-dory. Was it really that simple? A little public outrage is all it took to dismantle such a powerful organization and dislodge all the key persons in the Federation? And now everyone understands each other and wants to work together towards the future? Just like that? That's why I wanted to see the intermediate fallout, not just the results.

Originally Posted by bakato

The world was as peaceful as it was with three world superpowers playing a zer-sum game with plenty of smaller countries like Krugis suffering from civil war and other third world problems. CB's interventions never explicitly harmed civilians. The A-Laws murdered countless innocent people willy nilly and the innovators controlled everything while regular people lived their lives blissfully unaware like cattle. CB's war against the A-Laws again never directly harmed civilians.

When I say Gundams, I'm including the Thrones in there. They're the ones who kicked things up to the next level and led to unification. Without them it's doubtful if it would ever have happened, certainly not as quickly. Unification led to the formation of A-LAWS, for better or worse. You might call CB + the Thrones the indirect cause of all the civilian deaths that accompanied the forced unification.

And I'm still mystified at the ending - so now no smaller countries are suffering from civil war and all conflict has been wiped out? Because Katharon has been taken into the fold? Because the miracle particles made everyone understand each other? That's nice, but how exactly did it happen?

[bakato]

Originally Posted by AnimeFangirl

I knew the whole point of the final mission was to recover Veda and expose all the misdeeds of the Federation/A-LAWS. They only said it like 100 times. But it's strange to me how getting the truth out = it was A-LAWS that was bad, the Federation are the good guys! = Everything hunky-dory. Was it really that simple? A little public outrage is all it took to dismantle such a powerful organization and dislodge all the key persons in the Federation? And now everyone understands each other and wants to work together towards the future? Just like that? That's why I wanted to see the intermediate fallout, not just the results.

Yes, it was.

[AnimeFangirl]

If Celestial Being has truly eliminated all conflict from the world with the removal of the Innovators and A-LAWS - notwithstanding the fact that fundamental human nature hasn't changed, the fact that humans have been killing each other for as long as humans have existed, and the fact that war isn't so easily gotten rid of and that even miracle particles aren't enough to get aggressors to back off permanently - then that's fine.

Otherwise they've left the world only a little better off than it was before they came, with relative peace everywhere and pockets of conflict and poverty. More prosperity, less war (possibly? unproven), but was it really worth the millions of lives lost and billions of damage in property caused by their direct and indirect actions? Celestial Being will now have to act as World Police stopping conflict every time it crops up, and according to Kati the Feds won't allow that. It's a setup for more conflict in the future (or a sequel hook that never came to pass).

I'll watch the movie tomorrow and see if it convinces me any.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by AnimeFangirl

If Celestial Being has truly eliminated all conflict from the world with the removal of the Innovators and A-LAWS - notwithstanding the fact that fundamental human nature hasn't changed, the fact that humans have been killing each other for as long as humans have existed, and the fact that war isn't so easily gotten rid of and that even miracle particles aren't enough to get aggressors to back off permanently - then that's fine.

Otherwise they've left the world only a little better off than it was before they came, with relative peace everywhere and pockets of conflict and poverty. More prosperity, less war (possibly? unproven), but was it really worth the millions of lives lost and billions of damage in property caused by their direct and indirect actions? Celestial Being will now have to act as World Police stopping conflict every time it crops up, and according to Kati the Feds won't allow that. It's a setup for more conflict in the future (or a sequel hook that never came to pass).

I'll watch the movie tomorrow and see if it convinces me any.

No one said they did. Saji said it himself. When human nature starts acting up and starting conflicts, they'll be back. However, with the development of innovators Setsuna and the 00 started, humanity is now on a path to the eradication of war. They overthrew a corrupt government that was a pawn of selfish, egotistical individuals who only saw humans as cattle. On the whole, things are a lot better than the beginning and end of season 1. A world government dedicated to peace and cooexistence, which is also making amends to non-member nations wronged by the A-Laws.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by AnimeFangirl

I knew the whole point of the final mission was to recover Veda and expose all the misdeeds of the Federation/A-LAWS. They only said it like 100 times. But it's strange to me how getting the truth out = it was A-LAWS that was bad, the Federation are the good guys! = Everything hunky-dory. Was it really that simple? A little public outrage is all it took to dismantle such a powerful organization and dislodge all the key persons in the Federation?

It’s easier and quicker to topple an organization when the said organization is proved to be affiliated or working under a bunch of megalomaniacal Innovades who wanted to rule over mankind like Ribbons & co. Not mentioning how A-Laws lose several of its big leaders and military resources and might. The combined power of CB, Federation and the rest of the world, the remnants of A-Laws didn’t stand a chance anymore. Veda provided the rest of the information for the CB alliance. That’s what A-Laws get by screwing pretty much everybody who weren’t aligned with their agenda.

Originally Posted by AnimeFangirl

And now everyone understands each other and wants to work together towards the future? Just like that? That's why I wanted to see the intermediate fallout, not just the results.

If you put it to scrutiny, it's definitely not that simple, but the writer & director simply has no time and budget to animate the process. As long as the logic is not so farfetched, jumping to the result is good enough.

Originally Posted by AnimeFangirl

When I say Gundams, I'm including the Thrones in there. They're the ones who kicked things up to the next level and led to unification. Without them it's doubtful if it would ever have happened, certainly not as quickly. Unification led to the formation of A-LAWS, for better or worse. You might call CB + the Thrones the indirect cause of all the civilian deaths that accompanied the forced unification.

You’re right in some way. The world will probably unite a bit slower without the Thrones, but even without them, it was inevitable and would've happen sooner rather than later. I mean the battle in the desert back in Season 1 is already a big indication of it. The Thrones & Trinity themselves weren’t really part of the original plan.

Still, maybe I have to tell you that the Thrones, Alejandro Corner and the rebellion of the Innovades like Ribbons & co (which helped created A-LAWS) really put a damper to Aeolia’s original plan. You see, to be simple: his plan was basically meant so that the CB & Gundams’ action will result in the world being truly unified to fight a common enemy and boosting the world’s (military) technology to win the big war that will come.

This “common enemy” that I said above is not CB or the Gundams, but “something” that you will see in the movie. The world must unite first in order to effectively fight the “thing”. If you’ve seen the Muv-Luv series, you’d understand how ineffective and chaotic the world can be when an “outside terror” invade the Earth when it’s still divided and nations keep on bickering with each other. Aeolia didn’t want that. But alas, Aeolia’s plan had to go through a lot of bumps in the road (most of them being treason from parties who were involved with his plan in the first place like Alejandro and Innovades like Ribbons) which considerably delayed and derailed his original plan. Now, even if the world’s is already united, it’s questionable if they can really face the incoming threat.

Originally Posted by AnimeFangirl

And I'm still mystified at the ending - so now no smaller countries are suffering from civil war and all conflict has been wiped out? Because Katharon has been taken into the fold? Because the miracle particles made everyone understand each other? That's nice, but how exactly did it happen?

Basically, with A-Laws down, the world just got rid of considerable number of powerful individuals who have no goodwill towards the prosperity of people at large and many people who do and oppose them rose to power thanks to Federation & CB/Veda’s help. That alone will create a (much) better governance. Some small skirmishes do still happen as you can see CB patrolling the world at the end of S2, but at least it's nowhere near the scale before the events of S1.

[SonicSP]

There's way to many replies for me to read them and reply to each point and not get a headache. @_@

In any case, Innovation of humanity is the series's answer to solving the war issues. Everything else including the combat interventions are a temporary measure until that phase is completed. But practically it can only be the last step as opposed to the first.

That's why everything else like the dismantling of nuclear technology and weapons (part of the plan and executed before the anime time), creation of the solar elevators (infinite energy supply for prosperity but required the existence of the power blocs in Season 1).

Season 1's intervention was basically to culminate and force the political will for the blocs to to unite under the Federation.

The creation of the solar elevator was why the blocs were formed in the first place bec

This is all a pre-requisite to third phase of the plan, which is deep space migration and contact with other intelligent being as Tieria mentioned in Episode 24.

[AnimeFangirl]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

This “common enemy” that I said above is not CB or the Gundams, but “something” that you will see in the movie. The world must unite first in order to effectively fight the “thing”.

Okay, about to watch it now. It will be good to shed more light on the mysteries behind Aeolia for which Kinue had to die.

[SonicSP]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Still, maybe I have to tell you that the Thrones, Alejandro Corner and the rebellion of the Innovades like Ribbons & co (which helped created A-LAWS) really put a damper to Aeolia’s original plan. You see, to be simple: his plan was basically meant so that the CB & Gundams’ action will result in the world being truly unified to fight a common enemy and boosting the world’s (military) technology to win the big war that will come.

This “common enemy” that I said above is not CB or the Gundams, but “something” that you will see in the movie. The world must unite first in order to effectively fight the “thing”.

No, that's not it. You're getting the spirit wrong.

Spoiler for Movie Spoilers:

You're describing Ribbons' plan, or at least something that Ribbons was preparing for just in case anyways since he is behind the huge military buildup in the ESF via Veda as the ESF President mentions early in the season.

Fighting a war with aliens was the last thing Aeolia wanted. Several sourcebooks noted that the whole center of the plan was specifically done to make sure humans don't start a war with aliens to begin. It was to make sure that humanity's warlike's tendencies disappeared as to make sure they don't start an interstellar war with aliens, which would be........bad. Most sourcebooks translations I read more or less mentions this as the soul of the plan.

You are right that the plan is to unite humanity to face something else but it was not to fight them but rather to connect with them and become friends and ensure that war doesn't happen with them through misunderstanding (which is basically how the fighting with the ELS happened - and that was when both sides tried to understand each other from the beginning)

Aeolia also wanted to prevent a military buildup that would make warfare worse. In the MG Exia manual, it was noted that there are two reasons why only five GN Drive units were created. The first was because they were pretty hard to make and the other was to ensure GN Technology didn't become widespread and caused warfare to be GN-based and be even worse than it was. The less GN Drives they were, the harder for the technology to fall into the wrong hands and made warfare worse.

Militarizing wasn't part of Aeolia's plans - that was Ribbons part. We don't know specifics about Ribbons plan but we do know that he a) wanted to turn humanity into Pseudo Innovators that would obey him much like what he did to Louise and b) make a huge military buildup to prepare for the Dialogues . He didn't believe or thought much of the GN Particles ability to thought and empathy like Aeolia did.

As Setsuna said to Graham during their last battle in Season 2 but didn't outright say, he began to realize "the true reason the GN Drives were created". Later on in the Movie's Epilogue flashback, we see Aeolia giving the answer when he was talking to his friend EA Ray (Ribbons' DNA template, also a name play on Ensign Amuro Ray) about the potential of the GN Particle: as a particle that can carry thoughts and communicate universally across races. He wanted to use this not only to unite humanity but also use it as a communication-emphatic tool to prevent warfare when meeting new alien species. This was basically the lesson the movie sought to teach and what the core of the plan.

The difference between Aeolia and Ribbons was that Aeolia believed in the power of GN Particles as something that can bring peace through its magical empathy ability of quantum brainwaves, whereas Ribbons didn't. Aeolia was pragmatist when it came to most of plan but when it came to GN Particles being peace to the galaxy, the center glue of the his plan, he was an idealist. Ribbons by contrast was a pragmatist through and through at least when it came to the bigger picture.

By 50 years on, most of the template of the original plan of Aeolia's original plan was completed. As mentioned in the last chapter of 00N, warfare is a thing of the past and war machines became relics that collectors collect for fun. 00N and/or 00V Senki also noted that Federation continued demilitarizing just like the original plan called for. This was just a further acceleration what they were doing after the A-LAWS incident after Season 2 - so they don't even have a full army. Human began migrating into deep space and going on interstellar journeys to establish connections with other intelligent civilizations in hopes of making the galaxy a better place. To help each other grow and prosper.

If you’ve seen the Muv-Luv series, you’d understand how ineffective and chaotic the world can be when an “outside terror” invade the Earth when it’s still divided and nations keep on bickering with each other.

This is also something that Ribbons very much wanted to do. This is why Ribbons attacked and isolated the Middle Eastern countries that refused to join the Federation. This is why he attacked Seel and Azadistan and forced a lot their people to migrate onto space colonies. This is why he used GN Particles to kill Seel's IT industry as well as isolating the Solar Energy System from countries that aren't in the ESF.

I'm not sure what Aeolia's plan for dealing with holdouts in this situation but Ribbons was very much about uniting the world under his feet to ensure unity during the Dialogues.

[bakato]

Is there some other site for side story and extra material translations? I'm going by the wiki, but I want to know if there are more detailed sources.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by SonicSP

No, that's not it. You're getting the spirit wrong.

Spoiler for Movie Spoilers. Don't click before you watch the movie!:

Originally Posted by SonicSP

You're describing Ribbons' plan, or at least something that Ribbons was preparing for just in case anyways since he is behind the huge military buildup in the ESF via Veda as the ESF President mentions early in the season.

Fighting a war with aliens was the last thing Aeolia wanted. Several sourcebooks noted that the whole center of the plan was specifically done to make sure humans don't start a war with aliens to begin. It was to make sure that humanity's warlike's tendencies disappeared as to make sure they don't start an interstellar war with aliens, which would be........bad. Most sourcebooks translations I read more or less mentions this as the soul of the plan.

You are right that the plan is to unite humanity to face something else but it was not to fight them but rather to connect with them and become friends and ensure that war doesn't happen with them through misunderstanding (which is basically how the fighting with the ELS happened - and that was when both sides tried to understand each other from the beginning)

Aeolia also wanted to prevent a military buildup that would make warfare worse. In the MG Exia manual, it was noted that there are two reasons why only five GN Drive units were created. The first was because they were pretty hard to make and the other was to ensure GN Technology didn't become widespread and caused warfare to be GN-based and be even worse than it was. The less GN Drives they were, the harder for the technology to fall into the wrong hands and made warfare worse.

Militarizing wasn't part of Aeolia's plans - that was Ribbons part. We don't know specifics about Ribbons plan but we do know that he a) wanted to turn humanity into Pseudo Innovators that would obey him much like what he did to Louise and b) make a huge military buildup to prepare for the Dialogues . He didn't believe or thought much of the GN Particles ability to thought and empathy like Aeolia did.

As Setsuna said to Graham during their last battle in Season 2 but didn't outright say, he began to realize "the true reason the GN Drives were created". Later on in the Movie's Epilogue flashback, we see Aeolia giving the answer when he was talking to his friend EA Ray (Ribbons' DNA template, also a name play on Ensign Amuro Ray) about the potential of the GN Particle: as a particle that can carry thoughts and communicate universally across races. He wanted to use this not only to unite humanity but also use it as a communication-emphatic tool to prevent warfare when meeting new alien species. This was basically the lesson the movie sought to teach and what the core of the plan.

The difference between Aeolia and Ribbons was that Aeolia believed in the power of GN Particles as something that can bring peace through its magical empathy ability of quantum brainwaves, whereas Ribbons didn't. Aeolia was pragmatist when it came to most of plan but when it came to GN Particles being peace to the galaxy, the center glue of the his plan, he was an idealist. Ribbons by contrast was a pragmatist through and through at least when it came to the bigger picture.

Wait, so Aeolia really did not plan to prepare any progress of military technology at all even though he knew that aliens exist and he knew that humanity will have to face them? That sounds really naïve for someone who created the Gundams and Trans-am and planned “world unity” through force. He, of all people, should know the importance of having a contingency plan and also the old saying “desperate times require desperate measures”. They were lucky that the ELS have enough “goodwill” to stop after being exposed to the GN particles making them understand how humanity suffers under their assimilation methods. But what if the aliens are warmonger in the first place? What if, instead of ELS, we’re facing Borgs or Baltans or the Dark Horror Army from Zela? No amount of GN particles will stop their slaughter and without advanced military force, humanity will be screwed. Based on your argument & sources, Aeolia is somehow closer to Relena and her “Total Pacifism” when it comes to aliens, and we all know that’s not healthy because we don’t know what the other party will do to us.

The logical and balanced way is to develop both the GN technologies for both peaceful & military purposes. If an alien race comes, use the GN particles first. If they still open fire, that means you just can’t negotiate with them. At that point, fire back with all you’ve got. The faster you win the better.

Originally Posted by SonicSP

By 50 years on, most of the template of the original plan of Aeolia's original plan was completed. As mentioned in the last chapter of 00N, warfare is a thing of the past and war machines became relics that collectors collect for fun. 00N and/or 00V Senki also noted that Federation continued demilitarizing just like the original plan called for. This was just a further acceleration what they were doing after the A-LAWS incident after Season 2 - so they don't even have a full army. Human began migrating into deep space and going on interstellar journeys to establish connections with other intelligent civilizations in hopes of making the galaxy a better place. To help each other grow and prosper.

Wait, surely humanity aren’t naïve enough as to explore the vastness of space without military technology, right? No matter how peaceful your mission is, you still need to defend yourself from unexpected threats. Even the Starfleet from Star Trek (which is arguably a very peaceful organization at its core) believes in “violence when necessary”. You can't just rely on hopes. What would you do if the aliens totally intend to blast your ass in the first place?

Originally Posted by SonicSP

This is also something that Ribbons very much wanted to do. This is why Ribbons attacked and isolated the Middle Eastern countries that refused to join the Federation. This is why he attacked Seel and Azadistan and forced a lot their people to migrate onto space colonies. This is why he used GN Particles to kill Seel's IT industry as well as isolating the Solar Energy System from countries that aren't in the ESF.

Ribbons could use a softer method like CB though. You can’t treat the entire world like Kim Jong dudes treating North Korea. The world will fight back, and it doesn’t help that his enemy (CB) possessed a military tech that can rival his. That just wouldn’t end well. That’s where Ribbons eliticism became his downfall.

Originally Posted by SonicSP

I'm not sure what Aeolia's plan for dealing with holdouts in this situation but Ribbons was very much about uniting the world under his feet to ensure unity during the Dialogues.

Based on the show, I don’t think Aeolia was prepared for a betrayal of Ribbons’ magnitude. He surely wasn’t prepared for something like A-Laws. That alone should prove that Aeolia's plan is not exactly airtight. It’s thanks to current CB and their fighting spirit and prowess that his plan was able to be back on track (more or less) at the end of S2.

[AnimeFangirl]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Spoiler for Movie Spoilers. Don't click before you watch the movie!:

The logical and balanced way is to develop both the GN technologies for both peaceful & military purposes. If an alien race comes, use the GN particles first. If they still open fire, that means you just can’t negotiate with them. At that point, fire back with all you’ve got. The faster you win the better.

This points back to my problem with the whole "miracle particles solve everything" approach. Characters like Ribbons and Ali show full well that some people just can't be negotiated with. You can talk with them all you like and they might even pretend to agree but you turn your back on them and you get shot.

Things like human greed, sin, ambition, lust, drug addictions, all those things can't be done away with just by talking. The show underestimates the ability of human beings to do evil. "Wow I understand you perfectly, and you're a really nice person... but I still want your money/wife/position/oil/lovely blue planet." What then?

Setsuna himself killed lots of enemy pilots even with the magic particles in the air... Why not talk to them all, huh Setsuna? Is it because they're faceless grunts?

[Rising Dragon]

As far as "miracle particles solve everything," supplemental materials concerning events between the conflict in the movie and its epilogue show that's far from the case.

But that's a conversation best saved for the movie thread now that you're caught up.

[SonicSP]

Oh so many different discussions, this is going to take awhile for me to write up especially since I also have some fires to deal with in real life. Still good to have em!

I'll respond to some and probabaly out of order.