[MANGA] Bleach Chapter 358 Discussion

[Ganshou-dono]

I believe that reason for incconsistent reiatsu of ichigo is...that ichigo's own reiatsu is high...but nowhere near to ulquiorra lets say...but his hollow has reiatsu higher than ulquiorra...but masked ichigo isn't equal to hollow ichigo...why? because that mask gives him only part of hollow power...when he first brought out mask on ulquiorra then ulquiorra was all surprised because ichigo was able to damage his clothes but he was less than nomatch for ulquiorra...but when he met ulquiorra and fought him second time ulquiorra stated that his hollow form was stronger than before...so it's easy to guess that more he uses his mask the stronger it gets...it wouldn't be able to get stronger if he had full power from the start...so conclusion is that masked ichigo has just boost up from his hollow...it's not like he gets all the hollow's reiatsu uder his control
and why he got grimmjow in the end? well I suppose that kubo remebered good old times when the one with most resolve wins...I watched their battle again last week and ichigo while cutting through grimmjow's ultimate technique didn't have his mask (I hope I remeber correctly )...therefore it wasn't because of his hollow thing inside which was as some of you implied somewhat stronger at that moment or what...I don't understand where did you get such idea...I didn't notice any hichigo influence in that fight he just had his mask and as I said already masked ichigo =/= hichigo

Originally Posted by ShinAkuma135

i actually prefer the inner hollow ichigo over the standard one...if all goes well and nice, he'll take over and ichigo will end up in hell...then we can make some real progress

that would be soooo nice

[Wolcik]

Originally Posted by Ganshou-dono

I believe that reason for incconsistent reiatsu of ichigo is...that ichigo's own reiatsu is high...but nowhere near to ulquiorra lets say...but his hollow has reiatsu higher than ulquiorra...but masked ichigo isn't equal to hollow ichigo...why? because that mask gives him only part of hollow power...when he first brought out mask on ulquiorra then ulquiorra was all surprised because ichigo was able to damage his clothes but he was less than nomatch for ulquiorra...but when he met ulquiorra and fought him second time ulquiorra stated that his hollow form was stronger than before...so it's easy to guess that more he uses his mask the stronger it gets...it wouldn't be able to get stronger if he had full power from the start...so conclusion is that masked ichigo has just boost up from his hollow...it's not like he gets all the hollow's reiatsu uder his control
and why he got grimmjow in the end? well I suppose that kubo remebered good old times when the one with most resolve wins...I watched their battle again last week and ichigo while cutting through grimmjow's ultimate technique didn't have his mask (I hope I remeber correctly )...therefore it wasn't because of his hollow thing inside which was as some of you implied somewhat stronger at that moment or what...I don't understand where did you get such idea...I didn't notice any hichigo influence in that fight he just had his mask and as I said already masked ichigo =/= hichigo

Thank you for explaining my thought
Like I said I never had problem with vsGrimJaw fight, because I stopped carring too much. It's not like I stop reading Bleach if Hitsugaya's move kills Halibeli even if it shouldn't scratch her. Bleach was the second thing next to Naruto I started to read and thanks to that I read manga, because before that I only watched Dragonball and some random anime that was on TV when I was prepering for school.
Bleach was more entertaining than Naruto, at least it used to be.

It was said that Zangetsu isn't the same person as Hichio as they could be in the same "place" in the same time. They are part of the same being that is Ichigo, as shisoprenic as it sounds. If someone wants to make Bleach real then all strong guys have split personality, and they talk to themselfs - except for Kenpachi of course who is the sane one. So basicly anyone except human friends of Ichigo and Kenpachi are creazy people, and you wouldn't like creazy people to have atomic boombs, would you? If hollows didn't have to marge to became a threat to SS then I'd be absolutly with them in this War.

So Vaizards dosn't mean Hollow for Ichigo, like he'd have to ask Zangetsu that he'd leand him his hollow power, but that dosn't make sense since Zangetsu is dead.

[ChojinLocke]

Actually Ichigo is more powerful than his hollow self since he defeated it. The problem is that the Hollow taps the power Ichigo gets way better than Ichigo himself. But it goes hand in hand. Ichigo gets stronger and so does his hollow then learns from the hollow as the hollow has his power from the start and he gets stronger again and again...

If we go back to the beginning of the series Zangetsu said that it is weird Ichigo cant hear him coz nobody knows him (Zangetsu) better than him..I think this is very significant for the future. All over the series Ichigo is learning about Zangetsu and his sword which cuts the heaven apparently or something like that.

PS: 'Deus ex machina' does not really apply to shonnen mangas. They are meant to be that way.

[Jays]

Originally Posted by Wolcik

I'd rather die from two hits from a girl than some gay pink pental rain that Byakuya does. They both were trained by Yoruichi so I don't know who might be faster - and don't say that someone called Byakuya one of fastest or in the book the stats dosn't match, as long they didn't race each other while don't hiding any tricks we don't know who's faster.

Since when did this become a battle of "Byakuya vs. SoiFong"? However, your assumption that Byakuya was trained by Yoruichi has no basis to it; while we have seen that he does have a certain degree of knowledge when it comes to Black Ops Shunpo - assuming he did learn a thing or two from her - he fights completely diffirent than her and SoiFong, so again I find this comparison to be an awkward one, as well as attempting to defame Byakuya for having "pink petal rain".

Originally Posted by Wolcik

As far as I know SoiFong had better character development than let's say Shunhei or Shunsui. She loved her captain and became obsessed with doing better job than her idol, we also see now her relationship with Omaeda... (continued)

The rest of all of this is just your own opinion, and I get that, but personally - again this is my own opinion - I just don't care much for it. Her senpai broke her heart, someone call the whambulance for her.

Originally Posted by Wolcik

SoiFong was as much hurt by stupid jokes as Shunsui. She is in love in Yoruichi bwuhahahaha, while Shunsui is lazy and likes pretty girls bwuhahahahaha. It might be funny once but if you repeat that over and over, everything can become boring.

So what? The dude is insanely strong, while his cliched character does at times tend to get old, at least you know his fight against Stark wont be figuring out how he's gonna stab someone who is times infinity stronger than him, twice. Take that you fanboys!

Originally Posted by Anubis3200

I wonder how could she develop much when it is the first time in whole manga when she got a spotlight And now when she can develop and show who she really is, you are complaining
It would be different story if we saw her every second chapter as Hitsugaya... actually Hitsugaya seems not being developed at all

Didn't she have an entire fight detailing the events on why she's such a grumpy pants? I'm pretty sure she's that little kid who get her heart broken by her mommy and now is "serious business" because of it. While it's true that she hasn't gotten a chance at character development like Byakuya and Hitsugaya, she's not going to get it by attempting that same old trick on that Gramps.

Originally Posted by Anubis3200

Besides her fight with Yoruichi did have impact on her. She is not so cold anymore. If to take anime as example and Amagai arc, Ichigo would be dead by now since she definetly wouldn't care about him and most importantly she wouldn't doubt orders as she did then. This time she seemed to be the only one to doubt things. Isn't that a big improvement?

What's the Amagai arc? Is it in the Bleach MANGA?

Originally Posted by Anubis3200

I wonder how you can fave one character but hate another when Byakuya and Soi Fon are almost indentical:
1)Both about the same age.
2)Both funny and cute while being young. And they still have their moments.
3)Loyal
4)Mean(cold), but at the same time kind in their own way.

Yeh they have slight differences but still not so big! Besides I wouldn't say that Byakuya has developed as well, he simply doesn't obey rules so much, same thing as with Soi Fon.

I only have room for one stoic character in my heart, and it has to go the coolest guy evar! No seriously, many of the things you've stated are meaningless, such as age and appearance as youth. PERSONALLY, I found Byakuya's back story, of which there is plenty, to be far more interesting, and adds far more to his character than hers. At least we know that the source of his gruff exterior is not because someone hasn't called the whambulance for him, it's because that's what is expected of him.

Originally Posted by Anubis3200

And once again you are talking about it looks. Matsumoto's shikai has exactly the same power, only difference is that it changes into send instead of beatiful flowers.
I like Senbonzakura but I would call it a lazy shikai The only thing you do is standing and watching while Soi Fon uses her real abiities in order to make her shikai work and that is what makes her and shikai impressive.

See but Buyakuya's is cooler than hers. Obviously if people haven't picked it up, I just prefer his to everyone elses, that why I used it as an example, don't hate me for it. As for whether it shows his abilities, who cares? A moment ago you said how it's all about power, he's shown that he has both the techincal skill and power to back his claim.

[kitten320]

Originally Posted by Jays

So what? The dude is insanely strong, while his cliched character does at times tend to get old, at least you know his fight against Stark wont be figuring out how he's gonna stab someone who is times infinity stronger than him, twice. Take that you fanboys!

And who said that she is waiting for the moment to stab him twice?
Besides thinking is much better than running into the fight without thinking like Ichigo

Originally Posted by Jays

Didn't she have an entire fight detailing the events on why she's such a grumpy pants? I'm pretty sure she's that little kid who get her heart broken by her mommy and now is "serious business" because of it. While it's true that she hasn't gotten a chance at character development like Byakuya and Hitsugaya, she's not going to get it by attempting that same old trick on that Gramps.

Wow! 3 chapters among 358... that sure was a lot for a development
And Byakuya? "I will kill my sister because laws say so!" I really don't mind Byakuya but really? If not Ukitake back then on bridge, Rukia would be dead by now.
I would call him grumpy pants as well then.

Originally Posted by Jays

What's the Amagai arc? Is it in the Bleach MANGA?

NOW that is what annoys me the most... is manga a bible or something?! Nothing can be animated without Kubo's permission, so everything that is in filler arcs is as canon as manga.

Originally Posted by Jays

I only have room for one stoic character in my heart, and it has to go the coolest guy evar! No seriously, many of the things you've stated are meaningless, such as age and appearance as youth. PERSONALLY, I found Byakuya's back story, of which there is plenty, to be far more interesting, and adds far more to his character than hers. At least we know that the source of his gruff exterior is not because someone hasn't called the whambulance for him, it's because that's what is expected of him.

Big deal! So what if it is expected of him? Like if someone will smack him on the head because of that! Somehow it doesn't bother him now... besides he wasn't betrayed... that hurts far more than some 'exceptions'.

Originally Posted by Jays

See but Buyakuya's is cooler than hers. Obviously if people haven't picked it up, I just prefer his to everyone elses, that why I used it as an example, don't hate me for it. As for whether it shows his abilities, who cares? A moment ago you said how it's all about power, he's shown that he has both the techincal skill and power to back his claim.

As I said you are talking about it looks. If Soi Fon's suzumebachi would be flying around, I'm sure you would like it more.

I don't hate you, but the fact that you are trying to bash without any big reason is a little bit irritating... yeh you may not like her but why to call her 'Grumpy pants' or something?
Actually it suits almost every second character there...

[Jays]

Originally Posted by kitten320

And who said that she is waiting for the moment to stab him twice?
Besides thinking is much better than running into the fight without thinking like Ichigo

True... hold on a second, what's she gonna do to Barrigan again? The only thing she seems to be good at is stabbin' people twice, or will she finally use her Bankai and cause her fans to cream her pants.

Originally Posted by kitten320

Wow! 3 chapters among 358... that sure was a lot for a development
And Byakuya? "I will kill my sister because laws say so!" I really don't mind Byakuya but really? If not Ukitake back then on bridge, Rukia would be dead by now.
I would call him grumpy pants as well then.

As Spok would say, this is not a logical conclusion. My post was based on the assumption that the person whom I quoted said that she had no character development; I did not attempt to quantify it, rather I attempted to show that she had some, so in essence his comparison to characters like Shunsui and Hisagi, which have had basically next zero, is not a valid one. The rest of your post is incoherant, you can talk about "what ifs", but that wont do anyone any good. I honestly don't see what that particular moment has to do with the grand scheme of this conversation.

Originally Posted by kitten320

NOW that is what annoys me the most... is manga a bible or something?! Nothing can be animated without Kubo's permission, so everything that is in filler arcs is as canon as manga.

Says who? When you buy the licensing to a particular product, say the rights to animate a comic book, you inevitably have control over any animated media that can be produced from it. Whether or not Kubo has any say in the extra content - fillers - has never been said, I know that he has on some occassions lent his assistance to them, that Forrest of Menos mini arc, he designed the main character, Ashido(?) was it? However this is a MANGA thread, we are talking here about the manga material, the source work, if you want to talk about anime related stuff, then I'm sure there are other threads and places to do so, however as the big [MANGA] header states, we are indeed talking about the source work here, and just that alone.

Originally Posted by kitten320

Big deal! So what if it is expected of him? Like if someone will smack him on the head because of that! Somehow it doesn't bother him now... besides he wasn't betrayed... that hurts far more than some 'exceptions'.

I don't really know what to say to this, I already said that in my OPINION, his back story and present circumstances are far more entertaining than SoiFongs. Whatever's clever.

Originally Posted by kitten320

As I said you are talking about it looks. If Soi Fon's suzumebachi would be flying around, I'm sure you would like it more.

You honestly might have something there. Her shikai is boring if you ask me, when I think of cool shikai's, I'm once again reminded off Byakuya, Myuri, which although is not as extravigant as other, is hella cool once you put it together with the melevolance of his character. What I'm getting at is that she is not entertaining, it seems that to many of you this is a difficult topic to grasp, your favorite character is not liked by someone else, big deal, get over it.

Originally Posted by kitten320

I don't hate you, but the fact that you are trying to bash without any big reason is a little bit irritating... yeh you may not like her but why to call her 'Grumpy pants' or something?
Actually it suits almost every second character there...

Once again, bashing without any reason? This baffles me, I think I've very clearly stated the reasons why I do not like her character, just like I stated why I do not like Hitsugaya's character, although he has far more redeemable qualities than SoiFong, but that's just me taking a jab at her again. I've attempted to clearly and concisely point out why I do not like her, it's not rocket science.

Seriously, I get that you guys are fans of hers, but at the same time, you don't see me going apeshit when you guys go around saying "pink petal power" and what not. Take it for what it's worth, this isn't an arguement, it's a discussion on a character, everyone wins, the only way you lose if you let it get to your head.

[Vinak]

the animation company will usually go to a source material and "purchase" the rights to use your material for an animated show. now depending on the contract, this company can pretty much do whatever they want. including the fabrication of an entirely new storyline.

anime =/= canon.

Even plots that follow the manga pretty closely are not always the same.

[ShinAkuma135]

you know? i wonder if nemu has a bankai....i mean if she's mayuri's best work and he's an uberscientist then im just wondering....

anywhos, i wanna see how this barragan thing plays out.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Phenomenal

How?

If a serial killer goes out and stabs someone to death would you say "oh well, it was expected"?

It was expected. BUT IT'S STILL BAD!
There was no neccessity for Kubo to use so many cliches. It's not a good thing and never is unless you're using it for comedic effect which they blatantly aren't.

Them using it before is not an excuse. It's an explanation. And a poor one at that.

Your using "Deus Ex Machina wrong.
We knew from day one that Ichigo's powers fluctaute, the inner hollow inside of him is getting stronger and stronger. That's not DEM that's development on why his powers are freaking unique, even Halibel commented on Ichigo being like an Arrancar against GJ.

We knew from day one that Ichigo had an unusually large amount of reiatsu. But we weren't told that it fluctuated. Just that he didn't have control of it. Before Hollow Ichigo came along all we saw of Ichigo's reiatsu was that it would just constantly increase to no end. It never decreased.

The only time we were told that his reiatsu fluctuates is when Ulquiorra says it and were we told it was because of his inner hollow interfering. It wasn't Ichigo's reiatsu that was actually fluctuating. It was still there at it's current state the whole time. It was his control over his mind that was fluctuating. Hollow Ichigo was pushing it down to where Hollow Ichigo's reiatsu was (which I'm assuming is a place where it would be undetectable) so that he could let his out and gain control. Ichigo was in bankai which keeps his own reiatsu under control. So it wasn't fluctuating itself.

But it's like I said, Ichigo's reiatsu had nothing to do with him beating Renji the second time. They suddenly brought in this crap about Ichigo being able to win purely from will power when it seemed he was going to lose, and suddenly this skill solves everything and allows Ichigo to beat Renji on every level. Deus Ex Machina.

Now regarding his fight with Ulquiorra. I'm not denying Ichigo's inner hollow growing. But Ichigo's reiatsu plus bankai plus some hollow powers was nowhere near the level of Ulquiorra's first release, but Ichigo's hollows powers plus bankai (at this point Ichigo was exhausted and clearly out of reiatsu and also must have used up some of Hollow Ichigo's reiatsu) was able to pwn Ulquiorra's second release? It seems like a Deus Ex machina to me because Ichigo's inner hollow is suddenly capable of solving everything and there was nothing to suggest it was THIS strong. Having a Hollow Ichigo stronger than Vizard Ichigo? Okay, I'm fine with that. But the power increase was just far too convenient. It broke my suspension of disbelief. Well, actually, I saw it coming a mile away. It's overused aswell. If Kubo had made it a far closer fight then I wouldn't have had any problem with it. But he didn't.

For the record, we were never given any hint that Ichigo's Hollow was growing stronger than Ichigo. Just that he was having a larger control over Ichigo's mind. The only reason Ichigo defeated Hollow ichigo was because it was a battle of minds rather than reiatsu because otherwise, Ichigo would've clearly been defeated.

And if Ulquiorra really is gone for good, then it is definately a Deus Ex Machina. What the hell was the cause of him turning into dust like that anyway? As far as I'm aware of Ichigo didn't drive a stake into his heart.

[Ganshou-dono]

Originally Posted by Wolcik

Thank you for explaining my thought

you're welcome

Originally Posted by ChojinLocke

Actually Ichigo is more powerful than his hollow self since he defeated it. The problem is that the Hollow taps the power Ichigo gets way better than Ichigo himself. But it goes hand in hand. Ichigo gets stronger and so does his hollow then learns from the hollow as the hollow has his power from the start and he gets stronger again and again..

what did you expect? of course ichigo beated hichigo...otherwise series would end with the loss of main character or to be more precise his sanity...you can't count this in...it's like ichigo vs ulquiorra all over again...just because ichigo was winner in the end doesn't mean he is stronger than ulquiorra...when he fought his hollowself he was losing the whole time (I don't recall ichigo having upper hand...but I didn't see it for quite some time so I'm sorry if I don't remember correctly) and in the end he is stabed by hichigo...he grabs tensa zangetsu of hichigo and change it into his own and then hichigo is suddenly somewhat unable to doge what would be easily doge-able like few moment's before...I just don't recognize this as ichigo being stronger then hichigo...it was simply necessary for whole series to ichigo be victor...if you do recognize this as ichigo being more stronger...be my guest...

Originally Posted by ShinAkuma135

you know? i wonder if nemu has a bankai....i mean if she's mayuri's best work and he's an uberscientist then im just wondering....

anywhos, i wanna see how this barragan thing plays out.

I don't even think nemu has a zanpakutou...remember? urahara made mayuri his assistant back then...and I didn't see mayuri's zanpakutou anywhere back then...and you can make your VC anyone you want (if you are captain that is) so I think she's just his assistant and tool in one...remember how easily she dug number 8's laboratory? I think she's just a tool for him nothing more nor less

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Ganshou-dono

what did you expect? of course ichigo beated hichigo...otherwise series would end with the loss of main character or to be more precise his sanity...you can't count this in...it's like ichigo vs ulquiorra all over again...just because ichigo was winner in the end doesn't mean he is stronger than ulquiorra...when he fought his hollowself he was losing the whole time (I don't recall ichigo having upper hand...but I didn't see it for quite some time so I'm sorry if I don't remember correctly) and in the end he is stabed by hichigo...he grabs tensa zangetsu of hichigo and change it into his own and then hichigo is suddenly somewhat unable to doge what would be easily doge-able like few moment's before...I just don't recognize this as ichigo being stronger then hichigo...it was simply necessary for whole series to ichigo be victor...if you do recognize this as ichigo being more stronger...be my guest...

You could've just said it was a plot device, you know.

[Ganshou-dono]

Originally Posted by Haak

You could've just said it was a plot device, you know.

yeah I know...but those wouldn't be my words...cuz I don't use stuff like "plot device" or "plotkai" nor "Deus Ex Machina"...or someone might said stuff like there wasn't such thing like "plot device" in that...and then I would have to explain it anyway...this just spare me of one if not more meaningless comments

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Ganshou-dono

yeah I know...but those wouldn't be my words...cuz I don't use stuff like "plot device" or "plotkai" nor "Deus Ex Machina"

..
..
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Huh?

Originally Posted by Ganshou-dono

or someone might said stuff like there wasn't such thing like "plot device" in that...and then I would have to explain it anyway...this just spare me of one if not more meaningless comments

Oh, okay, fair enough.

[Ganshou-dono]

Originally Posted by Haak

..
..
..

Huh?

don't worry it wasn't anything offesive...I'm just not comfortable with using those words myself...if it's cuz I don't know their full meaning or I just simply don't like 'em...maybe because I just like to type huge-ass comments which are equivalent to just two simple words I dunno

[Haak]

No offense taken. =3

[kitten320]

Jays
I wasn't starting any argumen. Just wanted to know why you don't like the character. And from what you gave me, I don't really see anything wrong with her

And I said it many times that you hav your rights in order not to like a character.
Hitsugaya is just an aweasome example! He has so many fans that it is hard to imagine haters... but here we are! And if to search some more, he will have as much haters as fans!

Anyway you don't have to answer. As I said you have your rights. As long as there is no bashing I really don't care.

[ChojinLocke]

Originally Posted by Ganshou-dono

what did you expect? of course ichigo beated hichigo...otherwise series would end with the loss of main character or to be more precise his sanity...you can't count this in...it's like ichigo vs ulquiorra all over again...just because ichigo was winner in the end doesn't mean he is stronger than ulquiorra...when he fought his hollowself he was losing the whole time (I don't recall ichigo having upper hand...but I didn't see it for quite some time so I'm sorry if I don't remember correctly) and in the end he is stabed by hichigo...he grabs tensa zangetsu of hichigo and change it into his own and then hichigo is suddenly somewhat unable to doge what would be easily doge-able like few moment's before...I just don't recognize this as ichigo being stronger then hichigo...it was simply necessary for whole series to ichigo be victor...if you do recognize this as ichigo being more stronger...be my guest...

Ichigo is stronger than his hollow. There is no deus ex machina involved. His own hollow self said that he is the king and the hollow is the horse. Yes it was a victory for Ichigo over Ulquiora just like he beat the hell out of Byakuya with hollow. It's a necessary step to tap the hollow power again. But it is all Ichigo since it comes from Ichigo to begin with. His hollow learns when he learns so it can never be more powerful and that was the whole point of the fight : their difference was Ichigo's instinct which apparently the hollow doesnt have. Do not confuse hichigo with Ichigo's hollow. Hichigo is the hollow using Ichigo's instincts to become more powerful (ie tapping the power). On the other hand Ichigo's hollow is not so powerful as Ichigo since it doesnt have the killer instincts that Ichigo has (that is a clear quote from their fight so it is irrefutable). Simple

[reinloch]

Originally Posted by ChojinLocke

Ichigo is stronger than his hollow. There is no deus ex machina involved. His own hollow self said that he is the king and the hollow is the horse. Yes it was a victory for Ichigo over Ulquiora just like he beat the hell out of Byakuya with hollow. It's a necessary step to tap the hollow power again. But it is all Ichigo since it comes from Ichigo to begin with. His hollow learns when he learns so it can never be more powerful and that was the whole point of the fight : their difference was Ichigo's instinct which apparently the hollow doesnt have. Do not confuse hichigo with Ichigo's hollow. Hichigo is the hollow using Ichigo's instincts to become more powerful (ie tapping the power). On the other hand Ichigo's hollow is not so powerful as Ichigo since it doesnt have the killer instincts that Ichigo has (that is a clear quote from their fight so it is irrefutable). Simple

Ichigo did not beat the hell out of Byakuya. The man was still standing at the end. It wasn't Ichigo's victory over Ulquirra because it wasn't him who won, but a monster who hurts his friend.

[Waking_Dreamer]

Originally Posted by ChojinLocke

On the other hand Ichigo's hollow is not so powerful as Ichigo since it doesnt have the killer instincts that Ichigo has (that is a clear quote from their fight so it is irrefutable). Simple

So Ichigo has this killer instinct over his Hollow so much so he didnt want to kill Ulquiora...?

As for the people hating or not liking characters others do, thats fine. Though its prevalent in some posts how they pretty much add that derogatory remark to that particular character they hate. I mean you already stated you hate the dude/chick how many posts ago but you have to include that adjective to flavour the post right?

This is not directed to anyone in particular but just remember thats pretty much flame bait if seen so many times. I mean they're drawings why the rage?

[Ganshou-dono]

Originally Posted by ChojinLocke

Ichigo is stronger than his hollow. There is no deus ex machina involved. His own hollow self said that he is the king and the hollow is the horse. Yes it was a victory for Ichigo over Ulquiora just like he beat the hell out of Byakuya with hollow. It's a necessary step to tap the hollow power again. But it is all Ichigo since it comes from Ichigo to begin with. His hollow learns when he learns so it can never be more powerful and that was the whole point of the fight : their difference was Ichigo's instinct which apparently the hollow doesnt have. Do not confuse hichigo with Ichigo's hollow. Hichigo is the hollow using Ichigo's instincts to become more powerful (ie tapping the power). On the other hand Ichigo's hollow is not so powerful as Ichigo since it doesnt have the killer instincts that Ichigo has (that is a clear quote from their fight so it is irrefutable). Simple

I said what I said...dunno why mentioning deus ex machina but whatever...and as I said if you recognize ichigo being more powerful than his hollow then be my guest I won't try to convince you or anything...
I didn't get your point here though...not because I would confuse your ichigo-hichigo-ichigo's_hollow thing...but it just doesn't fit in bigger picture (whole manga that is)...maybe I just misunderstood that whole ichigo and his hollow part...or maybe you did...either way it's not like I just wanna disagree...my theory just makes more sense to me...that's all to this topic from me...I said all I had to say to this ichigo-hollow thing

Originally Posted by reinloch

Ichigo did not beat the hell out of Byakuya. The man was still standing at the end. It wasn't Ichigo's victory over Ulquirra because it wasn't him who won, but a monster who hurts his friend.

true ichigo didn't beat the hell out of byakuya...because byakuya ran out of reiatsu there and senbonzakura was destroyed...but ichigo couldn't move unlike byakuya...he even needed zangetsu to be able to stand...so it was draw...
also I would like to say what I think about this ichigo-could-have-killed-him-back-when thing...yes that's definitely true but byakuya had many such chances as well...he had such a chance already in episode 12 (or 13? not sure) so that's not very good argument for either side...so I think it's best to drop this argument about who had when and what kind of chance
I don't wanna start argument on this topic...so the rest of this post is only for byakuya fans

I think byakuya "lost" cuz of renji...yeah as stupid as it may sounds think about it...he pulled out bankai on renji...and say what you want but bankai costs hell lot of reiatsu...therefore if he didn't fought renji there then he wouldn't ran out of reiatsu in fight with ichigo...and when ichigo was just standing there he would blow him with some nice and flashy way of destruction into bits