(L+CR) Overlord Season 3

[moridin84]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Despite what happened in secret in the Happy Farm, there was in fact no evidence that Ainz prefer committing atrocities, from the perspective of the in-universe population. Other than racially motivated profiling, that of assuming Ainz wants to destroy all life because he is undead, there is no evidence from the people observing him that it was anything close to what Ainz prefers.

I am fully aware of what is happening in secret and how bad it is. But you can't use evidence that isn't available, to make decisions.

I was speaking from my perspective rather than his. I didn't say that because I thought they were his motivations, I just agreed with his decision for that reason.

Ainz has committed a number of atrocities so far and I am confident that he will continue to do so in the future. Because he has decided that acting as he has so far is the most rational and efficient way to accomplish his goals.

Normally a person's sense of morals would discourage them from committing atrocities. He already stated that he was no such problems. So there is no reason to think he will stop committing atrocities.

I have no idea what made you think Ainz is trying to destroy the kingdom. All he asked for is a single town. And Gazef himself proposed that giving up the town would have been wise.

Ainz didn't need to kill those 70,000 people and god knows how many more because he asked for a town. He didn't need to act at all.

He asked for that town knowing that the kingdom would never give him the town. If the kingdom gave him the town he would just ask for something else, or think of another plan.

Ainz was just picking a fight because he wanted to show off his power. He said that himself in this episode so I don't know why you would ignore that.

So you are saying he is fighting to the death to save his kingdom? No, all he is doing is fighting to the death defending a single town. A town that he himself proposed that they should give up on. He is dying not because it was the best decision, but because his king told him that is what he needed to do. He is dying because it was an order he had to obey, NOT because he is the only line of defence against the apocalypse.

You are badly mistaken, if you think this duel is about good vs evil. This is about a man being forced to die because his superiors rejected his proposal. He is dying for what he doesn't actually want.

Nobody is forcing Gazef to fight Ainz or to die.

If Gazef asked him the King probably would have told him to run away. To protect his son or the kingdom or something.

Gazef is the hero while Ainz is the evil villian trying to bring him over to his side by threatening innocent people. That is obviously the narrative being presented here. It's just in this story the main character is the villian, not the hero.

[EDIT]

How many people do you think would die, if both sides actually fought each other the old fashioned way? Is it somehow BETTER to stab each other with swords? Is it any less senseless, since the entire point is to kill Kingdom solders as to make them weaker long term for Empire to absorb them?

If what Ainz did is senseless, then nothing else in their world makes sense either.

Actually, Gazef was talking with the Count in this episode.

Normally the war consists of several small battles and then everyone goes home. I doubt 70,000 people would have died.

[eiyuuou]

ainz care about Nazarick, his people, his friends and flew into an uncontrollable rage when he found out he was deceived points out ainz makes a clear line between insiders and outsiders.
because he sees gazef worthy as an insider, he extended his hand for gazef to join him.
Ainz "Be mine, Hero!"
Gazef "I refuse!"

Just to remind others, gazef was defeated by the sunlight scripture and ainz wiped them out singlehandedly in s1.
gazef challenging ainz with a dark young within vicinity is nothing but a suicide when the dark young's attack is faster than gazef's perception and physical limits.
ainz can easily use Grasp Heart (s1) or despair aura (level I was used on hamsuke in s1) to deal with gazef. or worse, bearhug gazef like he did to clementine
all it will do is buy some time but the outcome will not change.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Back to Overlord, budget is one thing, but the staff and the direction are more important for this kind of scene. As someone already stated, Shingeki could portray a massacre without being graphic, and even use a lot of static shot. But even then, the "mood" is still there, with proper camera pan, pacing and sound direction to boot. Practically none was noteworthy in this episode of Overlord.

Oh god you aren't kidding. I thought last week was bad but this actually manages to hit a low worse than that.

I know that CGI is being adopted primarily for cost cutting reasons but that's not the problem here. This is squarely on the shoulders of the director. These scenes are very poorly composed.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by TheForsaken

Overlord never tries to become Shingeki. It is not that kind of anime.
Overlord is never about "utter despair in the face of unspeakable horror", but "let's trample over those hapless fools because it is fun".
I have spoken it before and I will speak it again now. Overlord is not a dark fantasy. It is never dark.

Since when I said Overlord has to follow Shingeki direction? What I stated is that the latter could convey a certain mood despite the production limitations they are usually plagued with.
The problem with Overlord is that it couldn't deliver any sense of dread and death despite the ongoing scene was "hundreds of thousand of soldiers are being massacred". The fact we have such kind of lazy camera pans and the likes don't help the ongoing scenes, which lead to some major dissonance between what the story is telling us and what the anime is showing us.

The series was always sober when it comes to people dying in the plot (be it innocent like Sword of Darkness, or villains like Clementine). Of course, since those were named characters, the impact on the audience is obviously more present. But that's the very reason why you have to make up for it when it comes to so many faceless goons. If that mood isn't even simulated to a certain degree, it doesn't even feel like a "massacre" is going on. I doubt seeing innards flying etc would be necessary so it isn't like you need graphical gore or something. However, the scale and the atmosphere are so dry that it didn't feel like what the story is pretending to show, and this is undeniably bad direction. For instance, the fact so many were trampled by the goats, yet there isn't any blood visible on the plains, just completely invalidate what was going on. I could go on, but you get the idea: what was portrayed and what was told don't match each other.

Originally Posted by moridin84

Actually, Gazef was talking with the Count in this episode.

Normally the war consists of several small battles and then everyone goes home. I doubt 70,000 people would have died.

That's probably because their usual wars were stuck on a statu quo, but remember that a certain noble told the King that since the Empire had like 3 times less soldiers than the kingdom, they could simply invade the empire in a fell swoop.
There is no evidence it would be mere skirmishes.

That being said, it is quite obvious the initial 70k death toll was way more than enough since 3-5K was already considered as quite big from a single "dangerous magic caster". So going as far as using the dark young was pretty pointless considering how the "fight" was already over.

[~Yami~]

Originally Posted by Dragon_Slayer_X

People trying to justify unnecessary massacres and shitting on honor/loyalty..........no wonder the world has become a shitty place.

like the mod said, don't bring our morale standard in Overlord or any isekai
They live in totally different timeline... and in the past, all massacres are considered necessary to show power and dominance
This kind of thinking is the one that formed our current society and morale standard
about honor/loyalty, either in past or present or future, there are some that considered unworthed loyalty depends on how people look at it

I'm looking at Gazef as someone respectable due to his loyalty
but if someone else considered it as useless act, then it's okay as well

[pervypig]

Originally Posted by Solace

Oh god you aren't kidding. I thought last week was bad but this actually manages to hit a low worse than that.

I know that CGI is being adopted primarily for cost cutting reasons but that's not the problem here. This is squarely on the shoulders of the director. These scenes are very poorly composed.

They need to put in more maids and fan-services. Seriously, even Mare panty-flashing would give the show a much needed boost.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I have no idea what made you think Ainz is trying to destroy the kingdom.

Did you miss the part where he decided to conquer the whole world? He's not going to stop at a single city, that has been made clear enough.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Did you miss the part where he decided to conquer the whole world? He's not going to stop at a single city, that has been made clear enough.

Remember that they could have conquered the world with sheer bruteforce if they wanted, but they are doing the "smart way".
As Demiurge stated, they are using some kind of stratagem instead of going "search and destroy mode", and this plan involves Momon in the lot.

While I doubt it is the last time they will resort to violence, I don't think it is guaranteed they would "destroy the kingdom" considering what we have been told. World domination doesn't always require destruction of the opposing factions, especially when you have bogus fantasy stuff running around daily.

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by moridin84

I'm not even going to argue about the people thing. To criticize Gazef for not trying to save people while glorifying Ainz who has killed tens of thousands, and in fact is the person threatening those very same people, is an absurd hypocrisy.

But those "tens of thousands" were Gazef's people, not Ainz's. That's why it's the former's duty to protect them while officially, they were the latter's legitimate enemies on an open battlefield.

Plus in working for Ainz he would help him commit more and more atrocities since clearly, that is Ainz's preference.

If Gazef truly wanted to stop Ainz from committing "atrocities", he should have pledge allegiance to him and served as his moral compass, a dedicated advisor who's always ready to risk his life to convince his liege from making harmful decisions. Dying there wouldn't stop anything.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

In storytelling when a hero accepts that deal it's usually a very stupid move. It's generally the birth of a black guard that the protagonist will have to face, becoming a new evil that just causes more deaths and strife than would have happened if he had refused the deal.

Except that Ainz isn't a traditional villain. Actually, whether he really is a "villain" or not is debatable. He hates senseless killing and unnecessary violence. You can't use those outdated tropes to predict his future actions.

Moreover Evil characters are generally untrustworthy. And while Ainz might very well honor his promise to spare those people right there at that moment, Gazef should know better than to trust an undead lord. Moreover Ainz plans to conquer the world so we know his killing spree isn't going to end anytime soon. Would it really be smart for Gazef to save a thousand soldiers only to help Ainz kill the next million?

Ainz's plan is to conquer the world to bring about peace, stability and prosperity, not to destroy it. Even if he kills a million, he will save and enrich another hundred of millions. And with Gazef serving as his right hand man, less people would get killed and more would be saved.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Remember that they could have conquered the world with sheer bruteforce if they wanted, but they are doing the "smart way".

From what I've seen so far it doesn't seem that the "smart way" relies on avoiding massacre.

The point remains that if Gazef joins Ainz he'll have to help him in conquering nation after nation, possibly commanding him to attack the very soldiers he's supposed to protect, and then he has no reason to think a Lich would be a good ruler for his people and others, especially not after what he has seen.

Also if someone asks you to join him, you may think about it. But if someone asks you to join him through a blackmail, you'd be a fool to not foresee what kind of leader-subordinate relationship you'd be getting into. It's already starting the wrong way.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

"destroy the kingdom"

Those are not my words.

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

Ainz's plan is to conquer the world to bring about peace, stability and prosperity

Nothing suggests that.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

That's probably because their usual wars were stuck on a statu quo, but remember that a certain noble told the King that since the Empire had like 3 times less soldiers than the kingdom, they could simply invade the empire in a fell swoop.
There is no evidence it would be mere skirmishes.

Every year they have that kind of numerical advantage, and every year the Empire has the upper hand because they have well trained, well equipped knights while the Kingdom has peasant levies. The noble was just an idiot. The only reason the Empire didn't steamroll the Kingdom is that it's cheaper to let the Kingdom deteriorate before launching the real invasion (the annual battles are very costly for the Kingdom because they take hands away at harvest time) and because the Empire isn't quite ready yet to absorb it. Jircniv complained his own reforms had caused a shortage of personnel in his government.

[Itlandm]

Some highlights from ep 12 for me:

-The Emperor saying that Ainz might be able to kill as many as 3000 men with his strongest spell, then adding that it was best to be prepared for a worst case scenario. I don't know if you guys laughed or cringed at that, I wasn't sure how to react myself.

-Ainz deliberately made himself a target to draw out any player characters from the opposing side? Was this why he had the dark elf with him, to intercept hostile players while he was casting?

-Ainz thinking about how he should have felt bad about killing all those people, but was just excited to see the spell effect.

-Yggdrasil had spells based on the Cthulhu mythos??

-The soldiers being reluctant to cheer for Ainz, until the monsters came close, then they applauded like their lives depended on it.

-Ainz told the goats to spare 4 people. I think the 3 he met with at the end were among those, but who was the fourth?

-Poor Gazef, but the death flags have been flying on half mast for a couple episodes now. And yet with necromancers, one may fear what comes after death more than death itself. Ainz has an interest in experimenting on martial artists, will Gazef make enough of an impression on him to avoid such a fate?

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by Itlandm

-Poor Gazef, but the death flags have been flying on half mast for a couple episodes now. And yet with necromancers, one may fear what comes after death more than death itself. Ainz has an interest in experimenting on martial artists, will Gazef make enough of an impression on him to avoid such a fate?

One thing to remember, Gazef know far less than the viewers; he do not know about Ains ''researchs''. One thing he should had noticed is than Ains want him to come to his side willingly, having him as a undead or revived might probably interfere with what he intended to do with him.

[TheForsaken]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Despite what happened in secret in the Happy Farm, there was in fact no evidence that Ainz prefer committing atrocities, from the perspective of the in-universe population. Other than racially motivated profiling, that of assuming Ainz wants to destroy all life because he is undead, there is no evidence from the people observing him that it was anything close to what Ainz prefers.

I am fully aware of what is happening in secret and how bad it is. But you can't use evidence that isn't available, to make decisions.

He has just massacred hundreds of thousands of people without showing any hesitation or remorse and you expect him to be a benevolent ruler?

Originally Posted by ~Yami~

like the mod said, don't bring our morale standard in Overlord or any isekai
They live in totally different timeline... and in the past, all massacres are considered necessary to show power and dominance
This kind of thinking is the one that formed our current society and morale standard
about honor/loyalty, either in past or present or future, there are some that considered unworthed loyalty depends on how people look at it

The fact that Ainz's own allies were horrified by the massacre is the proof that what he has done is unacceptable even with their standard.

[~Yami~]

Originally Posted by TheForsaken

He has just massacred hundreds of thousands of people without showing any hesitation or remorse and you expect him to be a benevolent ruler?


The fact that Ainz's own allies were horrified by the massacre is the proof that what he has done is unacceptable even with their standard.

oh you're right
but that is probably because they didn't expect what is coming
they imagined something like a long war with more than 200k victims.. but it's actually happened in less than 30 minutes

I don't know about the animation but I like overlord's CGI
if you made it graphic like Shingeki, I'll drop this anime.. too gory

[Yan3242]

The fact that Ainz's own allies were horrified by the massacre is the proof that what he has done is unacceptable even with their standard.

Horrified not because its unacceptable, but because how one sided the war is, how easy ainz kill them all, and how frighteningly powerful nazarick is.

They are more like in "can you imagine if we offended nazarick or make them enemy?" Line of thinking instead of "this is so cruel and unacceptable" view, its like you are this punk wannabe just join this gang but turn out they are way to violent for your standard, if all you want is to act cool in public but instead your gang mug, rob and murder people, you probably going to make the same face as them too because you know, the moment you quit you are dead.

these kingdom has wage war with empire on probably yearly basis, they kill each other because of "its that time to war again" like somekind of fesfival/event. the fact that empire try to raze carne village just because of it, the kingdom probably not rare to do such thing too, unacceptable is probably never cross their mind looking at the general/higher up just smile and laugh treating it like somekind of sport game despite they are sending people to dead.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by TheForsaken

He has just massacred hundreds of thousands of people without showing any hesitation or remorse and you expect him to be a benevolent ruler?

It's actually worse than this. He murdered all those people and asked for a round of applause. He's not dumb, he surely noticed the Imperial soldiers were beside themselves with fear, but that didn't even enter into his thought process, or at least it wasn't more important than his need for instant gratification. Not a good look for a ruler.

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by TheForsaken

He has just massacred hundreds of thousands of people without showing any hesitation or remorse and you expect him to be a benevolent ruler?

You can look at how much better the lizardmen has become after Ainz's conquest.

The fact that Ainz's own allies were horrified by the massacre is the proof that what he has done is unacceptable even with their standard.

They're scared because they are't his real ally but just a treasonous enemy waiting to stab his back. They fear once he knows about their intention, his goats will trample them instead.

[eiyuuou]

Originally Posted by Endscape

It's actually worse than this. He murdered all those people and asked for a round of applause. He's not dumb, he surely noticed the Imperial soldiers were beside themselves with fear, but that didn't even enter into his thought process, or at least it wasn't more important than his need for instant gratification. Not a good look for a ruler.

it's a psychological effect. rather than leaving them stunned and probably deny the reality later (because humans prefer to lie to themselves than to face the truth), the forced applause forces them to admit the devastation in front of them is real and the fear they feel is real.
the imperial soldiers aren't his friends or subordinates and he's not dumb to think they won't backstab him in the future. actually I thought you should know the empire's backstabbing plot already? the magic is to engrave fear into their hearts that they can never oppose ainz now or ever.

[Yan3242]

It's actually worse than this. He murdered all those people and asked for a round of applause

It called instil fear, did you forget? The kingdom is just pretending to be working together with nazarick where in actual they try to buy time to gather power to topple nazarick, Ainz knew this thanks to demiurge.

Thus the request for applause which i must say thats a good call. Ainz basically outright show them the good old mob boss "you dare to oppose me?"