Claymore Chapter 94

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by MisterJB

I'm 99% sure that Raki will finally encounter Clare. After seeing the destruction that Raciella is causing, he is sure to try and use Priscilla to kill her. Clare will be figthing against those mini Raciellas and they see each other.

At the rate these chapters are going it might be a couple of months before that happens.. how horrible that is indeed.

Originally Posted by sonotme_9FedriqSama

Now experience wise isn't clare ieven more than Teresa...??

That would be great. Clare definitely needed something to help her against these tough opponents and Priscilla in the future. And its not that much of a cheap "power up" either which is cool.

Now then.. is it September yet??

[Freya]

It's a given Riful is going to survive. Can't say the same for Duff though.

[AddiKtioNn-BlaCk]

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

Thinking about it Priscilla could eat that dead human so maybe she can gain a bit of time before losing control.....i mean,it's better to eat someone who is already dead,no?

I don't know if Awakened Being's eat dead humans. Don't they eat them while they are alive while the insides are still fresh?

(Why did I fell a little disturbed writing that? lol)

Originally Posted by Vinak

meh, Riful just came to realization that she really likes Duff (opposed to just using him). hopefully she survives this encounter and develops further.

I mean she can't survive the whole story because she's a Awakened right? Unless they find something to substitute her hunger, or they let her eat people.

[late_follower]

hi i'm new here. i have been following claymore for awhile and hope to know how to use this forum better (:

[MalakTawus]

I don't know if Awakened Being's eat dead humans. Don't they eat them while they are alive while the insides are still fresh?

Yes,but that human is dead only by few seconds,i think he could be a good meal for Priscilla.

[williamaugustus]

i believe the Riful will survive this battle and end up as Clare's ally, if only for the "the enemy of my enemy is my ally" reason. Clare needs powerful ally's. but she will die in the end, as will pretty much everyone. i will not take any guesses on who will survive.

[Ryus]

Another Long One, sorry in advance... however more then half of it's length is quotes, not my comments... so it's not as long as it appears.

Originally Posted by Celestial Teapot

About the Galatea thing, remember this? (Sorry if the image has already been posted previously)

Spoiler for Galatea:

Yes Celestial Teapot, I brought up this view point long ago... however SagaraSouske and MalakTawus (and others) seemed to just ignored the point. As far as they are concerned since Yoki manipulation does something different then prediction, so it is irrelevant that Yoki manipulation requires Yoki reading.

So I changed argument angles and tried to convince them (or remind them) that Yoki prediction is just skills picked up by there yoki reading. It seems to have gotten through to one of them, at least on some level. However, something (which I won't guess at to avoid possibly offending them) is preventing that person from fully admitting that Yoki manipulation uses yoki reading and that yoki prediction is simply yoki reading with combat experience. The other though seems to think that Galatea is only yoki sensing, which makes no since due to the support evidence to the contrary. One of which you just posted again. Thanks!

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

@Ryus, I won't attempt to quote all your long posts but I will address a few points.

1. That all 3 abilities stems from youki sensing. On some level, this is true. Claymores with high raw talent in youki sensing and practice/train hard in developing the skill can acquire all three abilities, with manipulation being the hardest to do. However, the three different abilities are defined by their actual use. Youki sensing is primarily for detection, youki reading is primarily for prediction and youki manipulation requires aligning your youki to your opponent’s to affect them. They are, for all intents and purposes, different abilities that serve different purposes even if they all have the same origin.

2. Galatea does have youki reading as well as youki manipulation. She is one of the best youki sensing claymores in the manga and has acquired all three abilities and prob the best long-range sensor we have seen thus far. That however does not mean her youki reading ability is identical to Teresa and Clare’s. First, the way she developed her youki reading abilities would likely be different from Teresa and Clare. Second, her raw fighting ability and youki level is much higher then Clare prior the 7 years in the north with the exceptions of Clare awakening her limbs. Because of that, where it is credible that when Galatea dodges an attack, it can be due to her combat abilities as suppose to prediction, it is also credible that Clare was unable to dodge all attacks because even if she was able to predict certain attacks, her raw speed does not allow her to dodge certain attacks. Teresa developed her youki prediction along with her combat prowess. It is a combination of both that allowed her seeming able to avoid and block all attacks from multiple opponents. Clare has the former and lacks the latter and it can be argued that Galatea lacks the former in the way of prediction but makes up for it in the combat experience department

3. Is it possible for Galatea to learn youki reading the same way Teresa and Clare did? Certainly. That however does not mean she actually did. All the panels you used as example does not explicitly point out Galatea is using youki reading as prediction unlike Clare. Each claymore has different experiences and their techniques are shaped by their experiences. They also utilize their abilities to compliment their fighting style. May be Galatea found youki manipulation to fit her style better and never developed youki reading towards prediction like Teresa and Clare did.

4. Even for certain abilities that can be learned by everyone with enough raw talent, there is a difference in how far one takes with it. Just like there are difference in degrees in youki sensing (primarily range difference and ability to sense youki suppressed claymores), there would be differences in the degree of youki reading prediction capabilities. Clare prob didn’t master it to the level of Teresa yet. She certainly had lots of room for improvement in both Dauf fight and Pieta. She did learn to combine youki reading and Quicksword into modified technique that allowed her to defeat Dauf. In doing so, her own experiences have left an imprint on her new Quicksword that is no longer exactly the same as Irene’s version. The modified version allowed her to drastically increase her control as well as power of her 50% Irene level Quicksword and made it almost as potent as 100% Irene Quicksword. After the seven years, I am sure she has already surpassed the original Quicksword with her version. Thus, it is entirely possible that Galatea’s youki reading does not have an advanced prediction component and is derived from youki sensing naturally on the way towards developing into manipulation, while Teresa’s youki reading is specialized version that focus on prediction and advance that specific area as much as possible.

Point 1) Well, thanks for almost completely agreeing with me. As to your argument about defining abilities by there use well it makes about as much sense as saying that using a shotgun to breach a door isn't the same as using it to shot someone. Well it's true that they where used differently however the mechanics where the same. So argue definitions all you want but please realize that scientist are still debating about the definition of a planet. So you arguing that use is the only important aspect in this debate is just wrong there are more valid points.

Point 2) First, I'd like to thank you for saying that Galatea can yoki read too. I'd also like to remind everyone that I previously stated that yoma powers are based off the warrior and that they do varies in their abilities in each aspect of Yoki sensing. However this is moot, the argument is about the core of each power and not about the rankings of each warrior in each aspect of Yoki sensing. To argue about the core of each power you need to prove that a warrior with one ability can use a related power or can't (to disprove it). The reverse isn't true, so arguing that a warrior has a weaker ability then another doesn't disprove that the cores of the power are different, in fact it adds to the argument that they are related abilities.

Point 3) I'd like you to point out panels that showed Teresa was using definitively using yoki prediction before Ygai said she was with Irene's statement. Good luck! In fact find any scene/panel when no one mentioned Clare using prediction and definitively prove Clare was using Yoki prediction at the time. Once again, Good Luck! To put is another way, I could play devils advocate and say that she saw it coming, heard something, is just gaining more combat experience, that the attack was slower then it seemed... Now I could never prove it but I could argue it, which makes Teresa/Clare using prediction just slightly not 100% fact.

In truth it is impossible to prove or disprove the use of yoki prediction until Yagi says it's true or not in a particular panel. It can be inferred but never proven. However I believe I showed more then enough to prove my speculation is not flat out false and with the effort that has been made to disprove me and it all failing to flat out disprove me. So my speculation is well founded.

Point 4) So Clare using a new version of the quick sword means that Galatea couldn't have an advanced prediction component? That's some logic... I won't go any further with this to avoid insulting you.

In what other way is Galatea's unique sensing style letting her predict where an attack is going? Is Galatea reading emotions to predict the attack angles of incoming attacks... LOL! (Joking: The emotions of the sword told me where to block )

Lets face it Galatea is Yoki reading, and using it for prediction (whether she realized that was what she was doing or not) in the Agatha fight is the most logical explanation for the events in the fight.

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

On the topic of youki prediction not being seeing the future, that much I think everyone knows. Prediction is used to describe the perceived effect of the technique. Youki reading used for prediction is essentially the same as a martial artist reading how an opponent are preparing their attack by the stance they go in before striking and muscle movement, etc. In the case of youki reading, reading the flow of youki allows Teresa or Clare to see how the youki flow is being utilized for an attack thus being able to predict with a certain accuracy where the attack will be coming from, how fast and how powerful etc. It takes a lot of effort and practice to translate the reading into meaningful information used for prediction, which is why there can be different versions of youki reading. Galatea may be able to read the flow better and see more minuscule details then Teresa and Clare, she prob does not have the experience in translating what she reads from the youki flow into what type of moves the opponent will be using, how strong, how fast, etc.

Couldn't agree more ...Though I'd say different results then versions. Versions implies multiple ways to do Yoki prediction. When it's different strengths in the yoki reading, different power levels, and experiences in the reading that effect the effectiveness of the predictions.

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

@Ryus:
-When in the manga Claire uses the prediction ability it's very clear and made obvious and this happens only with her.
-All the images that you posted to let me see that even Claire can be hitten in air are useless imo 'cause all the people that aren't blind can see that in all those cases she was never using the reading ability 'cause she was in rage (against Rig) or was a moment when she was lacking concentration (you shouldn't forget that she was still learning to use this ability and all the time that she lack concentration she wasn't able to predict).When Yagi made clear that Claire was using the prediction ability correctly she was NEVER hitten,her problem is that she sometimes loses her temper.

Don't just say your right... and put all the effort on me to disprove you. Back up your statements with evidence. Also lets see if you can do the same thing that I asked SagaraSouske to do. Go out and find scenes with Teresa and/or Clare and show me them definitely using yoki prediction without any statement by anyone say they did just that and since your are arguing that Galatea wasn't then tell me how Galatea failed to (in the Agatha fight) when compare to Teresa and/or Clare. Good Luck!

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

Obviously that wasn't what i was telling (and it's not what is written at all),but since you don't want to understand a clear example it's useless trying to explain to you again.

That's not what was written!?!? If so I'm sorry but your use of very improper English mixed me up. However, even if that's not what you said my point is still very valid. In real life to defect anything we has to defect it with another physical object. We can't deflect telepathically.

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

_About the images where in your opinion Galatea is using the prediction ability.....well she isn't.Her battle is nothing special if you don't consider the fact that she is blind.
All the warriors that are REALLY strong can fight using the sensing ability,the difference is that Galatea is a god at sensing(so even if she is blind it's like she can probably use her sensing like a sort of radar,like i said in my previous post) .
Prediction is similar but different IMO.Just because you have a PERFECT "vision" of the yoki it doesn't mean that you can predict the enemy's attacks.
And just to be clear,it's not like Teresa and Claire can read the future,it's just that with their ability they can obtain information that you can't obtain with the normal sensing ability.
Example:
If about an object that is moving,in a single istant you know only its position is different from knowing its position and instant velocity and is different once again from knowing position,velocity and acceleration.If you want predict how something will evolve in the near future you have to know at least position,velocity and acceleration.
A simple but perfect sensing ability is like having a very clear image of what is happening in an instant,but lack some information to understand clearly how the situation will evolve.Of course it's possible to use the sensing ability with instinct and reflexes to help a lot during the fight.
Imo you obtain the prediction ability when you can obtain from the yoki the informations needed to predict the evolutions of the attacks in the immediate future.Teresa was the only one that is able to use this trick and Claire has inherited this ability (she hadn't mastered yet before the time skip,now probably yes).It's not the same thing as a normal sensing and even if Galatea is without a doubt the best at sensing she can't use this ability (well,i'm not saying that she can't learn it for sure,i'm simply saying that NOW she doesn't have this ability).

Anyway this debate will have no solution 'cause you hink that Galatea during the Agatha fight is using the prediction ability,while i think that she isn't (imo she is "only" using manipulation and sensing ability + instinct and reflexes),so i think unless Yagi will make this clear we'll stay with our opinions.Just a little precisation:when you fight relying on the prediction ability you can't be wrong,cause if you are wrong you probably are dead,so when you use it you have to be sure of your predictions!
Probably the main difference in our opinions is that our interpretation of the prediction ability is quite different so i doubt we'll go anywhere with this....so feel free to contest my interpretation,i'll read with interest but i won't reply anymore on this topic (well,if you don't insult me....)

Well, how can I not consider something that is relevant? Blind people using swords against those far stronger then them and doing as well as Galatea is quite a feet.

Also please reread my argument about Yoki Prediction not actually being a power but a result of Yoki reading and combat experience. So it's tying in what you sense to combat skills such as blocking, parrying, dodging, attacking, and counter attacking.

Let me repeat this to you:

Don't just say your right... and put all the effort on me to disprove you. Back up your statements with evidence. Also lets see if you can do the same thing that I asked SagaraSouske to do. Go out and find scenes with Teresa and/or Clare and show me them definitely using yoki prediction without any statement by anyone say they did just that and since your are arguing that Galatea wasn't then tell me how Galatea failed to (in the Agatha fight) when compare to Teresa and/or Clare. Good Luck!

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

Sure, you can view it as a tiered system and youki reading requires youki sensing as well as manipulation requires reading. That however does not mean they are not unique skills. If we were to generalize broader, all techniques claymore uses are based on youki usage. That's the core of their power. But we still distinguish between different techniques because the process on how youki is used and the effect of the techniques are different. The original argument was that youki reading is not the same as youki manipulation. Having the same origin and being part of the tiered skill system does not make two skills that has different applications the same, despite one being a pre-requisite of the other.

The original argument was whether Galatea had yet matched Teresa in terms of prediction... so.. uh... your just wrong on that point. It wasn't until later that the argument evolved after MalakTawus joined in.

I've been arguing this whole time that Yoki manipulation is Yoki sensing, not that Yoki reading is yoki manipulation. I did also argue that yoki manipulation requires yoki reading. So where are you getting this "The original argument was that youki reading is not the same as youki manipulation" idea, that's putting words in my mouth.

Wow... I didn't go as far saying all Claymore powers are yoki usage. I just said that there are many powers that are derived from yoki sensing. I also pointed out that there are powers derived from arm manipulation (Since I'm talking about this I'd like to point out that Helen seems to have surpassed Jeans ability with the drill sword, so improving a technique beyond the original master isn't something that only Clare has done (Quicksword with advanced Yoki reading)). In short I've been talking about what abilities characters have the potential to learn, if not master.

Your the one who wanted to change the argument to power usage. I just countered the points you made which countered my theory and restated my theory time and time again. In short I never changed topic to argue your debate, I've only been defending mine and countering your attacks on it.

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

I don't belive yoki manipulation needs yoki reading 'cause like i said, if it was so, the AB that used yoki manipulation should have been A LOT stronger and would have killed Claire easily 'cause he would have predicted Claire's movements.It's clear that he had a very powerful manipulation ability but he wasn't able to predict anything.
And btw i had the impression that when Irene talked about Teresa's prediction ability she was describing something almost unthinkable to obtain for the other warriors.....and it's not like Irene wasn't good at sensing,she was (maybe is....i can still hope,no?)great at sensing,and still she described it like something unique.


Edit:AHHHHH!!!!!I have to stop it!!!!

Yoki reading doesn't tell you what the opponent will do, that requires the reader to learn how to tie what there reading into prediction. It requires practice to learn what we call Yoki prediction. Yoki reading will never tell you where to aim, even if your opponent is at point blank range. Even then a trained yoki predictor could see the move you are going to make and dodge it... see the below... Clare slips between his attacks when Deneve get hit (due to being in the bloody air ).

Spoiler for Size:

Your right that Irene was in awe of Teresa's ability. However she wasn't a yoki reader nor was Sophia or Noel... and who can say what Priscilla was good at. Your also right that yoki prediction is unique, think about it like this how many yoki readers do you think live long enough to master yoki prediction? (we can't know of course, it's a rhetorical question.)

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

That wasn't my idea nor intention. Galatea does possess youki reading and does use it for manipulation and sensing (emotion sensing in long range for example). Just that youki reading as a skill is not the same as youki manipulation.

Never said it was the same. Said yoki manipulation uses yoki reading.

[Goofus Maximus]

I think this chapter can be summed up in one word: "INCOMING!!!!!!!!"

Will chapter 95 be action packed, or will we cut away to Rabonna and MIB headquarters?

[Ryus]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

As for the point Ryus raised about duration, if it wasn't for Ritful, I am sure Galatea can go on manipulate Dauf forever.

I was referring to the length of time he kept up a single manipulation. Not that he kept using it throughout the fight far longer then Galatea did. I'm sure if Riful hadn't come in Galatea would have kept tricking Duff until he died or ran away.

In short Galatea never attempted to offensively use her manipulation on Duff by pinning him down. All she did was quickly use the manipulation to avoid attacks and to set up her counter attacks. When the AB in Pieta used the manipulation to have Claymores walk 50 feet to slice off an allies head and kept the other claymore pinned down the whole time. Galatea's manipulations were quick and were used to set up sword strikes, when for the ab in Pieta his manipulation was his main attack and his spikes where used purely defensively.

[whitepearl]

This chapter was well worth the wait.

That single panel shot of Awakened Alicia charging at Riful on page 15 = epic win

[MonsieurRosseau]

Wait, is Galatea better at yoki manipulation now?

[williamaugustus]

Originally Posted by MonsieurRosseau

Wait, is Galatea better at yoki manipulation now?

she did not seem to try to use it in her last fight so we dont really know, but it can be assumed.

[Ryus]

Originally Posted by williamaugustus

she did not seem to try to use it in her last fight so we dont really know, but it can be assumed.

Why? Has she gotten stronger due to training?

She has developed better yoki reading abilities and now seems to be using Yoki prediction but that doesn't mean Yoki manipulation has gotten stronger. It could go either way... it could be the same or maybe it has gotten strong. However, nothing yet definitively indicates that she has gotten "stronger" at Yoki manipulation since the "strength" of yoki manipulation is based on ones power level and not their skill.

[MisterJB]

Originally Posted by williamaugustus

she did not seem to try to use it in her last fight so we dont really know, but it can be assumed.

She used it here to make Agatha's tentacles crash into the roof.

Spoiler for manga page:

[Ulquihorror]

Originally Posted by Vinak

meh, Riful just came to realization that she really likes Duff (opposed to just using him). hopefully she survives this encounter and develops further.

But then, some people in the forums might be grossed out by such a relationship(as seen in the priscilla/Isley thread)...a little girl with a huge ass monster!
Duff is no longer Riful's playtoy. He is her lover! So wonderful!

[AddiKtioNn-BlaCk]

^^ Ulquiorra would've been a good character for Claymore it seem like, lol.
Doesn't Clare's group have warriors that specialize in Yoki manipulation besides Galeata...
I think it was Yuma or something right?

[Fenrir_valindri]

She used her Yoki-manipulation several times throughout the fight, and even shows surprise when it doesn't work on Miata.

She first uses it on Clarice, who has no clue why her sword moved of course from where she targeted. (pg.21 of chapter 74) On the next page she attempts it on Miata, but it doesn't work and Galatea is forced to dodge, which is why Galatea comments on Miata's strength on the next page. This is pretty clearly illustrated by the focus on Clarice's sword and its sudden shift in its path, then the focus on Miata's sword and Galatea's "!" in the next panel.

and as MisterJB pointed out, she used it against Agatha, but Agatha quickly adjusted and didn't allow her to use it again in the fight.

----

As for Riful and Dauf's relationship, I never really saw any indication that she only saw Dauf as a tool before now, as I pointed out earlier in this thread, she has shown concern for his well being in the past, and even exposed her true form to Alicia back at the end of the Witch's Maw. So I'm a bit unsure why people are acting like Riful suddenly developed feelings for Dauf, even when she has stated he was "her man" in the past more then once.

[MisterJB]

Originally Posted by Ulquihorror

Duff is no longer Riful's playtoy. He is her dead boyfriend! So wonderful!

There, fixed it for you.

[williamaugustus]

Originally Posted by Ryus

Why? Has she gotten stronger due to training?

She has developed better yoki reading abilities and now seems to be using Yoki prediction but that doesn't mean Yoki manipulation has gotten stronger. It could go either way... it could be the same or maybe it has gotten strong. However, nothing yet definitively indicates that she has gotten "stronger" at Yoki manipulation since the "strength" of yoki manipulation is based on ones power level and not their skill.

yoki manipulation is bassed on the ability to sense yoki frequency and then match it. if she can sense better she can match better, i think.

Originally Posted by MisterJB

She used it here to make Agatha's tentacles crash into the roof.

Spoiler for manga page:

man i cant believe i missed that. all of them. i must have been half asleep when i read it. my bad. good catch.

[MalakTawus]

Ok,it seems there's something wrong here.
When i say yoki reading i ALWAYS mean yoki prediction.
Btw an easy example for implicit yoki prediction for Claire is when she dodges Rigardo's first claw-attack (when Deneve was hitten).That attack was so fast that the only way to dodge it (with Claire's normal speed) is to predict it (she even warned Deneve BEFORE the actual attack).It's clear when she uses prediction only when she moves BEFORE (or at the same time)of enemy's attack,the other times that she dodges it's not clear if she uses prediction or if she simply dodges the attack.The undeniable truth is that we have seen sometimes Claire doing clear predictions,instead we have never seen Galatea dodge an attack BEFORE it happens.All the times she dodge or parry using reflexes or instinct combined with her great fighting ability.
As you can see i was able to find an example.And now why don't you find an example (a real one this time) where Galatea is able to dodge an attack BEFORE it happens?
You always tell me to bring proofs,but imo it's you that don't bring real proofs.All you just do is to post some images in which what you say is NOT proved at all!(like in the images about Claire hitten in air and like the images where in your opinion Galatea uses prediction).
I don't have to prove that Claire and Teresa have the prediction ability.That's a fact.
It's you that are trying to prove that Galatea has the same ability too,so it's YOU that should bring evidence.
If you can find an image where Galatea CLEARLY uses prediction i'll admit that she can do it.I have no problem,afterall i love Galatea.

And now that i think about it i have another evidence that Galatea doesn't have the prediction ability:
sometimes Galatea try to manipulate her enemy only to find out later that she can't (this happened even against Miata).If she had the prediction ability she would have noticed in advance that the enemy would have used an attack too strong to be manipulated.Notice that in this case Galatea menaged to dodge the attack even if she moved very LATE.