Madoka Magica - Episode 08 Discussion / Poll

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

Hope there is more to QB then just incubator. Grief seed farming gotta have a grander purpose.

He's consuming the souls of Masou Shoujo, in a slightly indirect fashion. He makes them into Masou Shoujo, they inevitably crack from the strain and become Witches or get eaten by one, and then he eats the Grief Seed's they create.

If you think about it, he's probably a walking atomic bomb of magic. It would explain why it's easy for him to create miracles. If he's got any hidden agenda (I occasionally doubt he does though) it's to collect enough magic to pull off one hell of a miracle or devastation.

[Vsin]

>_>
<_<

Did nobody notice the colour of Homura's Soul Gem when she was trying to kill Sayaka? PINK?

- Every MG up to now has had their Soul Gem match their character colour (or rather, hair colour).
- Kyuubey claims that Madoka is the only one in the world who can break physics. Therefore, she's also supposed to be the only one with the potential to manipulate time (Homura's power).
- Homura doesn't actually break down until she hears Madoka's QQ session about her worthlessness.
- Also note that she continually emphasizes Madoka not causing suffering to those around her. Not "wishes never come true" or "this is the worst mistake in the history of mistakes", just that one point over and over again.

I dunno, the show seems to be heavily pushing towards Homura being future Madoka, if only the Soul Gem. Which then begs the question: is Homura the Body actually the black cat from the OP, "transmuted" into a girl?

[SagaraSouske]

What I mean is how he came into being in the first place? How did he create MG system etc. Also where are all the QBs from, another dimension? Since they seem to appear anywhere instantaneously.

[creb]

Originally Posted by Kinematics

Haha! That was my thought exactly! After all the speculation of Homura being Madoka (which never really made sense to me), what if it was Sayaka? Still, that pretty much falls flat on its face when you consider that Homura never really expended any effort to save Sayaka herself.

I honestly do not think Sayaka was even a fixture in Homura's timeline. I don't think these two timelines were/are exact anyways. Especially in the earlier episodes, Sayaka and her actions seemed to be the one thing that evoked any surprise in Homura. It wasn't until she came to understand that Sayaka was this timeline's Madoka's best friend did she begin to start paying more attention to Sayaka. I wouldn't be surprised if Sayaka in this timeline is taking the place Homura did in hers where it was Homura who was Madoka's best friend.

Edit: Just read the post above mine. Nice idea. It'll be very interesting when they finally reveal exactly what connection Homura has to Madoka. That bit of static Madoka had when speaking to Homura is very confusing. It doesn't seem to have any place in a theory that has Homura coming from an alternate timeline, as erasal of memory wouldn't be needed. Gah! I haven't been this invested in the inner workings of a show in years!

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by omimon

The question now is why don't Homura just spill the beans and tell everyone everything she knows. Maybe it is a condition for time-traveling.

From Gen's point of view? I think he didn't want to go the old "I'm a time traveler from the future, heed my warning" plot.
In the logic of the series? Maybe she was expected, if she told Madoka who she was from the start, that Madoka would try and interfere and make things better. Instead, she kept telling her that they plain way she was living now was best, and she keeps telling her to go back to that life.
The two of them seemed pretty damn close. I wouldn't be surprised if Homura could predict Madoka's self-sacrificing behaviour.

[daimonth]

In Sayaka's case, I believe its an existential crisis springing from being in love, being a teenager and being a MG/Zombie that leads to a sense of inferiority. As a result it drove her to embrace her MG identity, which combined with her own strong sense of right and wrong reinforces her ideal of becoming a MG that uses magic for others. Unfortunately it leaves her in a fagile mental state that give way to complete despair as she is faced with the paradox of protecting a world that does not necessary deserves protection.

[herbert]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

So if Sayaka is a coward, what does that make Madoka?

Coward.

A robber is a robber, doesn't matter he robs $5 million or just $5.

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

Sayaka was aware of the consequences, yet she blindly charged forth into battle without regard for her own survival. Sayaka did everything she could to kill witches, believing that she would save people from harm. In the end, she gave up her soul and her sanity, paying the ultimate price. That is something I must respect.

Bad things happen to good people.
Terrible things happened to Sayaka. But she had a heart of justice... no matter who condemns Sayaka, she left me utterly compelled.

Because she believes in justice or because justice is the only thing can hide her from reality?

Sayaka is never aware of consequences. Not when she makes her wish, nor when she chooses to challenge Kyoko, nor when she agrees the duel with Kyoko, nor when she refuses the Kyoko's helpful hand, nor when she throws the GS to Kyoko and says that is what Kyoko is after, nor when she accuses Madoka who has great potential but doesn't do anything, nor when she kicks away the GS provided by Homura.

She has been through very tough things, I agree. But she is not brave enough to look straight at facts and interpret the cruel truth. She fabricates some fantasies. She wants to believe in what she likes and she tries to ignore things which may shatter her fantasies. But, at the end, the intrusion of cruel things is too strong for her fantasies to bar away so she is broken.

By the way, she is a good girl and tries to be good but she is not justice. Justice a word too heavy for her shoulders and a meaning too complex for her intellect.

[Sackett]

Well...

Profanity fails me. I must go to John Milton:

"Which way I fly is Hell; myself am Hell;
And in the lowest deep a lower deep
Still threat'ning to devour me opens wide,
To which the Hell I suffer seems a Heav'n"
— John Milton (Paradise Lost)

Okay... so a lot of this was predicted, but I think people are going to miss the nuances that make this even more interesting.

1: Sayaka was judging Homura correctly, at least in the sense the Homura is lying. She's keeping secrets, deliberately. We thought she was just a Kuudere who really wants to help. No. Homura is a freaking Knight Templar. A Knight Templar with only one goal- stop Madoka from becoming a magical girl.

Q1: What other secrets has Homura been keeping back? And why? How far will she go to protect Madoka?

2: Homura is packing some serious weaponry. Flash grenades. Hand guns. She's the exploiter of a broken ability, she's actually not very high level. So she's smart, cunning, and ruthless. What she is not, is that she is not powerful, she's not that durable, and she is not that flexible. She's got her one ace power, and massive levels of super preparedness. She's not anywhere near capable of fighting this super-witch on her own.

3a: Homura is from an alternate timeline. Yup, the speculation was right... sort of. You see, she's not from the future future, but from a different future. Time travel here works more like Mirai Nikki- ain't that a comforting thought. This explains so much. It explains her shock that Mami died. Homura knew a Mami in the previous timeline, and in the previous timeline, Mami didn't die.

Q2: This is the first huge question that people are missing. Why did Homura interfere? She told Mami that it was her hunt. In the previous timeline there must have been something that happened, something that made Homura think that it was a key point to change the timeline. (The other one was when she tried to kill Kuybee in Ep 1.) What happened in the previous timeline? Did someone else get killed? Sayaka maybe? Or maybe just an injury to Sayaka? And Madoka used her wish to bring Sayaka back?

3b: Another subpoint on time travel. Homura was surprised when Sayaka became a Magical Girl. That means in the first timeline hereafter called HR-Time, Sayaka did not become a Magical Girl. Homura was horrified, and then concealed it. Is this just because Homura feared it would drag Madoka in? Or was there more to it? Maybe Homura does have feelings beyond just saving Madoka, but she suppresses them for what she thinks is the greater good? Typical Knight Templar. Remember how she acted so swiftly to save Sayaka, I think Homura may not be as unfeeling as she wishes she were.

Q3: So many things could have gone differently to have Sayaka not become a Magical Girl, but it is eerily connected to Sayaka's claim this episode that if Madoka had become a magical girl, that then she wouldn't have. At first I thought that this wasn't true, but maybe it is? Sayaka couldn't even understand why she said something so hurtful... maybe the soul corruption led her to speak the secret truth- maybe Sayaka became a magical girl not just because of Kamijo, but also because Madoka was so scared, and Mami was dead, and Sayaka really did want to protect everyone, protect Madoka- in the way that Madoka has pretty clearly always depended on Sayaka for? (yeah, that was in this episode too.)

4: Homura has killed Kuybee before, and just killed him again. Oh yeah, the little frakker is immortal. Creepy as all get out too. And now he knows how Homura killed him. What can he do with this knowledge? Homura seems worried.

Q4: So why did Homura try to kill Kyubee the first time? Did she only learn of his Immortality after Ep 1? Also, back then, why was Kyubee acting all scared of Homura and begging Madoka for help. Was it an Indy Ploy by Kyubee to turn this sudden attack to his advantage? It this a case of Xanatos Speed Chess? So how did Kyubee meet Madoka the first time around? Did Homura's attack backfire by making Madoka more willing to listen to Kyubee. And maybe especially Sayaka, who came in to see Homura apparently attacking her friend? In fact this was a defining point in Sayaka's distrust of Homura, Sayaka referred to it several times. Did Homura in fact engineer her own defeat and the corruption of Sayaka by attempting to just kill Kyubee?

5: Homura is freaking obsessed with Madoka. She even tells us why: "Why do you always sacrifice yourself?" So apparently Madoka is very much a Christ figure, and Homura has taken it upon herself to prevent Madoka from sacrificing herself to save everyone else... including Homura. More then that, Homura seems to love Madoka.

Q5: Does that mean Homura is trying to sacrifice herself to save the Christ figure? But only the Christ figure Madoka, because she's really the only truly and fully selfless and good person around, and thus to our Knight Templar the only one that truly deserves to be saved. Do we even have a trope for that? Maybe Homura is the Faust in this story?

Or is there something else? Does Madoka becoming a Magical Girl not save everyone? Does it actually doom the world? Is this world so dark that even a truly selfless act (as opposed to a flawed mixture of selfish and selfless motive) bring doom?

Q6: Is Homura related to Madoka somehow? This kind of devotion and desperation is rare outside blood ties. Where they just really close friends in HR-Time? Someone who knew about Madoka becoming a magical girl and yet had not signed a contract herself yet, and so could use her wish to leap between timelines or something?

Wild Guess: Homura is Sayaka from HR-Time. It has everything. It explains the devoted attempt to protect Madoka (an attempt to live up to the normal order of things where Sayaka protects Madoka, instead of Madoka sacrificing herself). The Knight Templar tendencies which we have seen Sayaka show. The delicious evil irony of Homura causing her own alt-self to become a Magical Girl and doom herself. The way Sayaka seemed able to detect the deceit from Homura that even we the viewers missed. The irony of not being able to manipulate yourself. The casual decision to kill Sayaka to prevent a Fate Worse Than Death, makes perfect sense if Homura is Alt-Sayaka. Why Homura was surprised at the different things she was surprised at. Why she thought she knew the outcome of the Charlotte hunt and identified it as a turning point. And why it caused her to break down emotionally when Madoka is about to sacrifice herself (again) to save Sayaka aka Homura.

6: Magical Girls become witches. Yup, the obvious point that everyone kept saying as if it were true- it's true. Magical Girls grow up to become witches- but missed in that is the more subtle point in that Sayaka tells us exactly how and why Magical Girls become witches, and why Grief Seeds (what an ominous name know that we know the truth) cleanse magical girl Soul Gems. Magical Girls work by creating "miracles" of happiness and joy- and that means someone (the Magical Girl in her Soul Gem) must absorb the grief and pain that is prevented. Eventually the grief and pain become so great that the Soul Gem shatters, and reveals the Grief Seed inside.

Equivalent Exchange with a vengeance. Which is why the more selfless the wish the worst it tends to be for Magical Girls. Kyoko is also probably a very rare Magical Girl, a girl who made a semi-selfless wish, yet managed to survive absorbing all the backlash of grief and pain. Grief Seeds then continue to absorb grief and pain which is how they can cleanse Magical Girl soul gems.

Q7: But then what? Wait! Does that mean the Magical Girls are increasing the pain and torment of the former Magical Girl now trapped in her Grief Seed? Until they become nothing but pure grief and sorrow and all hope dies? Holy crap! No hope, only despair, and pain, and endless sorrow? I know what that description fits! HELL! Grief Seeds = In Hell!

Kuybee is the Devil, and he really is sending their souls to Hell. Hell is in the mind! (Someone has been reading John Milton!)

"Still paying, still to owe.
Eternal woe! "
— John Milton

Q8: Another side question, that might make for a good spin off story. If witches eat humans, and magical girls eat witches, could a Magical Girl reduce the grief and corruption in her Soul Gem by eating humans? Basically could a true Dark Magical Girl exist? One that goes around killing bad people, feeds by giving them her pain and grief, and thus thrives by killing bad people (although I suppose and evil magical girl could just kill everyone), instead of saving good ones? Are Magical Girls Abyssal Exalted? Kuybee is a Neverborn?

7: This makes the Madoka Christ-parallels all the more potent. What happens if Madoka is strong enough that she can absorb the grief and pain of everyone? Since that's basically the central part of the Passion of the Christ, and the atonement story. Yet Kyubee is still trying to get Madoka to contract, which suggests that only bad things will happen if Madoka does sign a contract.

8: Oh yeah, Kyubee knows that Magical Girls become witches. He wants them to become witches. Why?.

So I'd say the real two big questions to come out of this are:

1: What is Kyubee's end goal?

2: Who the hell is Homura?

Really. Who is she? I gave a Wild Guess up above, but truthfully I can't bring myself to really believe it. So who is she really?

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

What I mean is how he came into being in the first place? How did he create MG system etc. Also where are all the QBs from, another dimension? Since they seem to appear anywhere instantaneously.

Perhaps he's just a being that has always existed. Maybe he's the wayward creation of a Magical Shoujo from before the Soul Gems were implemented. I have no clue.
As for his spare bodies, I don't see why it's too complicated. As I said before, he's likely got more magic in him that everyone except Madoka combined. If he can grant a few measly miracles here and there, I'm sure it's no trouble for him to create a few extra weird dolls for him to use as bodies. And Witches exist within an outside dimension, right? If his power comes from eating Grief Seeds, I could see him being able to use a few of their powers.
As for how Masou Shoujo operated before him, I guess it used to be a natural awakening, which would explain why he knew that a Masou Shoujo fighting with her normal body was incredibly inefficient. My guess is that after his creation, he swindled some Masou Shoujo into helping him find some magical power to consume, which he used as power to start up the System.
Afterwards, it's simply a return of interest.

[creb]

Originally Posted by Sackett

Well...

Q4: So why did Homura try to kill Kyubee the first time? Did she only learn of his Immortality after Ep 1? Also, back then, why was Kyubee acting all scared of Homura and begging Madoka for help. Was it an Indy Ploy by Kyubee to turn this sudden attack to his advantage? It this a case of Xanatos Speed Chess? So how did Kyubee meet Madoka the first time around? Did Homura's attack backfire by making Madoka more willing to listen to Kyubee. And maybe especially Sayaka, who came in to see Homura apparently attacking her friend? In fact this was a defining point in Sayaka's distrust of Homura, Sayaka referred to it several times. Did Homura in fact engineer her own defeat and the corruption of Sayaka by attempting to just kill Kyubee?

I've been under the impression that this is that whole case of "if you try to change the past, things will just get even worse".

I also thought it was interesting when Kyuube said that was the second time Homura killed him. I wonder when the first was.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by creb

I also thought it was interesting when Kyuube said that was the second time Homura killed him. I wonder when the first was.

Well, it couldn't have been in Homura's previous time, as he realized her origin after mentioning that was the second time she killed him. I think, from Homura's point of view, the first thing she'd want to do after arriving in the current time, would be to go and lop off Kyubey's head.
That's the first time I think she killed him.

[Deconstructor]

Gosh, it's in bad taste to speak of the dead like this. But, this is an anime...

Originally Posted by herbert

She has been through very tough things, I agree. But she is not brave enough to look straight at facts and interpret the cruel truth. She fabricates some fantasies. She wants to believe in what she likes and she tries to ignore something which may shatter her fantasies. But, at the end, the intrusion of cruel things is too strong for her fantasies to bar away so she is broken.

If you ask me, she is brave enough to reject the truth and try carving out her own. People from your viewpoint argue that there is no way to change reality and it's best to accept facts. That people will die, regardless of how hard Sayaka tries.

Even if that's true, at least Sayaka had the courage to try and change that. She had an ideal of the world, and sought to make that ideal reality. While she may be naive and even crazy, I will never call Sayaka cowardly.

[Leo_Otaku]

0_0 I so KNEW it

Spoiler for Hell Mouth:

I knew that little bastard had another form! I so called it earlier too. That creepy thing ate his body!! I was not only shocked when he had bullets fired through his body. The damn Hell Mouth ATE himself 0_0 WTF! I was like yelling out ahhhh the whole time.

[creb]

Originally Posted by Leo_Otaku

0_0 I so KNEW it

Spoiler for Hell Mouth:

I knew that little bastard had another form! I so called it earlier too. That creepy thing ate his body!! I was not only shocked when he had bullets fired through his body. The damn Hell Mouth ATE himself 0_0 WTF! I was like yelling out ahhhh the whole time.

It was actually his "normal" mouth. I always considered the "hell mouth" to be the one on his back.

I wonder what the odds are of catching QB, and then forcing open his "hell mouth" and being able to punch the real QB by sticking your fist in. Really, really hard. For some reason, I have this image of RealQB lounging on a pile of grief seeds somewhere catching the grief seeds sent to him via the "hell mouth" and rubbing them all over his naked body. What RealQB looks like, I can't imagine, but it's probably the polar opposite of the cuteypie plush dolls he's interacting with the girls through.

[herbert]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

Gosh, it's in bad taste to speak of the dead like this. But, this is an anime...



If you ask me, she is brave enough to reject the truth and try carving out her own. People from your viewpoint argue that there is no way to change reality and it's best to accept facts. That people will die, regardless of how hard Sayaka tries.

Even if that's true, at least Sayaka had the courage to try and change that. She had an ideal of the world, and sought to make that ideal reality. While she may be naive and even crazy, I will never call Sayaka cowardly.

Well, I don't want to argue on linguistic term so I won't continue. The closest thing I can give her is unsophisticated braveness.

[Makender]

Originally Posted by creb

It was actually his "normal" mouth. I always considered the "hell mouth" to be the one on his back.

I wonder what the odds are of catching QB, and then forcing open his "hell mouth" and being able to punch the real QB by sticking your fist in. Really, really hard. For some reason, I have this image of RealQB lounging on a pile of grief seeds somewhere. What RealQB looks like, I can't imagine, but it's probably the polar opposite of the cuteypie plush dolls he's interacting with the girls through.

The funny thing is that I once dreamed (I'm serious) of reaching my hand into QB's back mouth (I have no idea why) and pulling back a stump. Yeah, I was pretty freaked out afterwards.

[Leo_Otaku]

Originally Posted by creb

It was actually his "normal" mouth. I always considered the "hell mouth" to be the one on his back.

I wonder what the odds are of catching QB, and then forcing open his "hell mouth" and being able to punch the real QB by sticking your fist in. Really, really hard. For some reason, I have this image of RealQB lounging on a pile of grief seeds somewhere catching the grief seeds sent to him via the "hell mouth" and rubbing them all over his naked body. What RealQB looks like, I can't imagine, but it's probably the polar opposite of the cuteypie plush dolls he's interacting with the girls through.

Originally Posted by Makender

The funny thing is that I once dreamed (I'm serious) of reaching my hand into QB's back mouth (I have no idea why) and pulling back a stump. Yeah, I was pretty freaked out afterwards.

@creb-I think he himself is a Hell Mouth now XD Oh god that would be funny! I so want someone to draw a comic of that XD

@ Makender- AH dude that is scary shit!!! I hope I don't have nightmares too now >.<

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Makender

The funny thing is that I once dreamed (I'm serious) of reaching my hand into QB's back mouth (I have no idea why) and pulling back a stump. Yeah, I was pretty freaked out afterwards.

That is some scary stuff. At least Homura shooting him had some positives. Now know that if you did reach in there that nothing crazy would happen. He'll just transfer his consciousness to a back-up body.

[Kaoru Chujo]

1. Kyuubei eating himself was a classic.

3. Part of what makes Kyuubei so great is Katou Emiri's creepy version of his voice. Wonderful job.

2. So Homura quests from timeline to timeline, trying and failing to save each different Madoka from sacrificing herself. Since theory says the supply of possible alternate worlds is infinite, this is an eternal task.

4. Saitou Chiwa as Homura tore me apart.

[ahelo]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

That... may be stretching it too far. I do not think he meant that in a literal sense. If that were so, Madoka is the Sun and everyone else are planets.

People said Kyuubey being evil in episode 1 was stretching it too far. Look at what we have now?