(L+CR) Akame ga Kill

[kusabireika]

Ok...... nvm continue both your discussion ~_~

Sigh

Better ask this question on other section ....

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Calca

Night Raid was formed because of what the PM was doing. It is easy to see the PM himself is corrupt, has no problem killing those who are a threat to him, and uses every means he can to consolidate his political power. You are putting the corruption of the PM on Esdeath herself simply because she is a general in the army.

No, we're calling Esdeath corrupt because she takes his bribes to do his dirty work, not because she's a general.

Looking at it another way, if the PM wasn't in charge and some other PM was, and simply did not have Esdeath kill his political enemies, would you think Esdeath was corrupt?

As long as she doesn't take bribes to do dirty work or other such things, I wouldn't call her corrupt.

Esdeath has not once gone beyond what she has been asked of nor has she ever used her status for her personal gain.

Except she does. She's gone past her official duties when she took bribes to do dirty work. In fact, in the latest episode, she kidnapped an innocent boy in public for no other reason than she wanted to. That's using her status for personal gain.

[Calca]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Yes.



What sin did that old man and his daughter commit aside from being opposed to the Prime Minister?

What sin did any soldier who has ever been killed in a war commit aside from being on the other side of the war. You see now you're going into specifics here. Is Esdeath corrupt for ordering her soldiers to kill someone since she didn't partake in the action? If so are you going to argue that Liver is corrupt for serving the one who saved his life? After all it was Liver who participated in the assassination and not Esdeath. So now you must ask yourself, is Liver truly corrupt? He himself admitted he does not serve the PM, only Esdeath.

As the people above have mentioned, when Esdeath murdered civilians during that battle, why was Najenda so horrified, if, like you're suggesting, the world of Akame ga Kill has some alien moral code where these things aren't an issue? The point of that little aside is to show us that normal people in this world have morals like ours.

A mere 150 years ago there were people in the United States who considered African Americans as not even human. If they were brought up with those moral upbringings, were they truly bad people?

never said anything about the Nuremberg trials. I brought up the Nuremberg defence, which is the same idea you've been espousing, that soldiers that commit crimes because of orders aren't responsible for them. Even up to 500 years ago, that idea was scrapped. I don't see any reason it should be different in this world.

And what does this have to with corruption again?

So you didn't even go to the link did you? If you did you'd see the similarities between the soldiers and the experiment subjects.

[mangatron]

Originally Posted by Endscape

I can agree with this, but let's not paint Esdeath as some naive innocent.

She knew she was being used, and went along with it because it was what she wanted. If she was a different person, she would refuse to commit a crime just to complete a job they asked her to do.

Heh, naive innocent... No offense, but have you met the guy? The guy who could easily say "Esdese is a traitor! Off with her head!" This guy is powerful. So when he says "I'm looking for a Transporter" You say "I'm listening"...

That's true. The fact remains that she involved herself in illegal activities, so she's corrupt.

Whoa, as much as I didn't want to extend this corruption topic, that's way to broad of a generalization. Let me give you an example. Here in Manila, Philippines, during the GMA era, corruption was rampant. One day while on the road, I saw a policeman go around those famous road side food stalls, pick a few things off the menu, and leave....without paying. I said "Hey, that guy didn't pay", and I was told "because it's the corruption". I'm like whaaa? So I was told it goes like this: these people, running their food stalls, doing what they do best, are in the vicinity of that policeman's patrol zone. As a public servant, Mr Policeman is to serve and protect. But he abuses his power by telling these food stall owners "If you want my protection, you're going to have to give me free food." These poor people have no choice but to comply.

Does that make them corrupt? By going along with Mr Policeman's terms? Not everyone has the power to fight back, and Esdese, who has no political leverage other than her strength, has not had the thought occur to her to fight back against the corrupt madman that employs her.

I should note that I am not glorifying Esdese as a naive innocent, but rather, to say someone is corrupt simply because they do not stand up to the corrupt, is pretending corruption goes both ways. It doesn't always.

Originally Posted by garbage

Bolded part 1 : And that's exactly why I pointed out that flashback with with Najenda...she was given the same duty as Esdeath in that scene. so what's the difference? which brings us to...

Sorry to butt in, but isn't this not about corruption, but rather Najenda grew a conscience while Esdese's heart remained cold as ice?

[Calca]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Except she does. She's gone past her official duties when she took bribes to do dirty work. In fact, in the latest episode, she kidnapped an innocent boy in public for no other reason than she wanted to. That's using her status for personal gain.

Really, she used her status? If she wasn't a general, I have a feeling she'd act the exact same way she did.

[thundrakkon]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Don't know if the anime skipped that part out.



I repeat, if it was an official order, why is he offering her a bribe in order to do it?

Okay, you have to stop using the "bribe" as an argument. If it was not shown in the anime, then it did not happen in the anime.

Originally Posted by Endscape

I think we can assume murder is illegal in this world. Why would the likes of Aria's family hide their hobby if it wasn't?

What I was more leaning towards was assassination. State sanctioned assassination are legal in the country that it was issued. In this world, where Kurome can take out an entire village, which probably have a lot of innocent people, it seems that murder is legal if state sanctioned.

Again, Esdeath assassinating the officials was state sanctioned.

Originally Posted by Endscape

What about trifling things like trials and such? Even that poor guy that got ripped apart by bulls was at least granted an audience, and was given a bullshit reason to be killed.

I don't think there ever are trials for state sanctioned assassinations.

Originally Posted by kusabireika

Uhm speaking of which are both sister "akame and that jaiger girl they look similar" good? morality speaking ._. I haven't read manga .... Will read till finish

The Jaegar girl is Kurome. She Akame's sister, and considering Akame's reaction towards her and what we've seen so far, Kurome is probably very evil. Akame seems to have good morals.

Originally Posted by kusabireika

Sorry for confusing everyone

No worries. Your comments are actually a welcome relief to all the heated debates that are going on.

[garbage]

Originally Posted by Calca

Night Raid was formed because of what the PM was doing. It is easy to see the PM himself is corrupt, has no problem killing those who are a threat to him, and uses every means he can to consolidate his political power. You are putting the corruption of the PM on Esdeath herself simply because she is a general in the army. Najenda did not agree with the PM and left the army. Esdeath did not object to the PM and stayed as a general. That does not necessarily mean that Esdeath herself is corrupt.

Looking at it another way, if the PM wasn't in charge and some other PM was, and simply did not have Esdeath kill his political enemies, would you think Esdeath was corrupt? If Esdeath was simply confined to suppressing rebellions or keeping the peace would you think she is corrupt? Esdeath has not once gone beyond what she has been asked of nor has she ever used her status for her personal gain.

Also as far as Night Raid's actions, you can look at Justice Girl. Is she corrupt? Is she evil?

I would say no, she isn't corrupt or evil in fact she's quite pure hearted. However her own view of evil and justice is different from what we as a viewer sees. She sees evil as those who violate the laws of the Empire. With Night Raid, obviously assassinating people goes along with her view of evil (even if is different than our view of evil).

Now at the same time, I can safely say Justice girl wouldn't even let a simple purse snatching go unpunished. She has a high moral compass, but it's just for the side that we as the reader/viewer don't agree with.

Bolded 1 : but she is not SIMPLY a general in his army, she herself stated that she is the one basically keeping the PM in power, the reason why she is untouchable by the PM. And YES SHE IS CORRUPT because she basically knows all this and if fact has a very low view of the PM, BUT she is playing along, with the PM. Keeping him in power, perpetuating the corruption, with FULL KNOWLEDGE OF THE SITUATION. AND FOR WHAT??? So she can play more. kill more, torture more. self-serving no? (all her words BTW, so cannon fact not just my view). Imagine with all her power she started pushing for reforms instead.

Bolded 2 and after : now I don't know why you would be bringing in Justice girl in an Esdeath discussion, because quite simply they are far different altogether. They don't even have any similarities in background & upbringing. "Justice Girl" for me is nothing but a deluded misguided fool, maybe even just plain crazy. irrelevant ( to the Esdeath discussion that is). But if you force my hands then I say YES, if she full knowingly support & perpetuate the corruption then she is corrupt herself. But that's the issue with her Character. she is blinded, one can't even be sure she knows what really is happening, as she acts more like an airhead (or a 5 yr old view of whats right & wrong eg: "the empire said so , so it's right!")than not. Even the soldiers with her questions her sanity.

[Kyral]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

Different people have different perspective on what is morals. Also, people do not agree on a lot of different things. That is human nature.

Indeed, this is how humans are.

And thank you for reminding me that I should have not used this kind of hyperbole and I agree that the way I phrased it was poorly.

But what you just said did not boost nor diminish my argument.
As I was talking about common morals and not personal morals, and my argument was that the common morals of the world Akame ga Kill plays in are not that much different from our modern western moral standarts.

[Calca]

Originally Posted by garbage

Bolded 1 : but she is not SIMPLY a general in his army, she herself stated that she is the one basically keeping the PM in power, the reason why she is untouchable by the PM. And YES SHE IS CORRUPT because she basically knows all this and if fact has a very low view of the PM, BUT she is playing along, with the PM. Keeping him in power, perpetuating the corruption, with FULL KNOWLEDGE OF THE SITUATION. AND FOR WHAT??? So she can play more. kill more, torture more. self-serving no? (all her words BTW, so cannon fact not just my view). Imagine with all her power she started pushing for reforms instead.

Bolded 2 and after : now I don't know why you would be bringing in Justice girl in an Esdeath discussion, because quite simply they are far different altogether. They don't even have any similarities in background & upbringing. "Justice Girl" for me is nothing but a deluded misguided fool, maybe even just plain crazy. irrelevant ( to the Esdeath discussion that is). But if you force my hands then I say YES, if she full knowingly support & perpetuate the corruption then she is corrupt herself. But that's the issue with her Character. she is blinded, one can't even be sure she knows what really is happening, as she acts more like an airhead (or a 5 yr old view of whats right & wrong eg: "the empire said so , so it's right!")than not. Even the soldiers with her questions her sanity.

Ah so Justice Girl for some reason gets a pass due to the fact that she's just "crazy" however, Esdeath is an immoral corrupt horrible human being. How is this right? You cannot apply one standard to one person and a completely different standard to another.

Also you say that Esdeath has a low view of the PM? I beg to differ, I believe this is just you being confused with the fact that she said he has high blood pressure and may keel over at any time. Esdeath never once stated she has a low view of the PM. You also think that Esdeath should push the PM for reform if she had authority? From her PoV, she has to agree with the "reform" in order to do so.

[thundrakkon]

Originally Posted by Kyral

But what you just said did not boost nor diminish my argument.
As I was talking about common morals and not personal morals, and my argument was that the common morals of the world Akame ga Kill plays in are not that much different from our modern western moral standarts.

It's really hard for me to gauge what is morals in Akame world. As was mentioned earlier, Najenda grew a conscience, and defected. It is what she believes in, but is it really the world's morals? If it was morally wrong, wouldn't her soldiers, especially Liver, have something to say against it? Also, without our introspective, most of the commoners would consider Night Raid as lacking morals due to assassinations. However, those who know Night Raid and the rebel army probably do not view Night Raid as negatively moral.

[garbage]

Originally Posted by mangatron

Sorry to butt in, but isn't this not about corruption, but rather Najenda grew a conscience while Esdese's heart remained cold as ice?

isn't that part of the problem? let me set an example. At various times in the past I've had a chance to talk with the scions of certain rich, powerful, political clans ( in a relaxed setting so they're were kinda free talking.[BTW i'm also from the same country.], What bugs me most when they start talking about government funds is that they talk as if THEY OWN IT THEMSELVES, as if it's their GOD given right.

oh they know it, the money is not really theirs, yet they still feel they are entitled to it, and can do with it whatever they want (and can get away with) So you see how this can lead to so much corruption. unfortunately it's so much ingrained in the culture here, I shudder at the thought of how to change it

On the other parts of your post. I understand the situation perfectly as I see it everyday. But I can't really see Esdeath at the same level as a street seller, as she was touted in the Anime as one of the (if not the) most powerful Teigu user.
But she stays on, as it suits her purpose (her words exactly). If Najenda, Bulat and others were able to break away, she can. IF she really wants to.

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

snip... However, those who know Night Raid and the rebel army probably do not view Night Raid as negatively moral.

hmmm,,, but they do know it themselves, they do know killing is wrong, and that they are damned for what they are doing, and is fully ready for all the consequences of what their actions would bring Yet their hands are tied and that's all they know they can do in the situation.. It was in the earlier episodes.

[Kyral]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

It's really hard for me to gauge what is morals in Akame world. As was mentioned earlier, Najenda grew a conscience, and defected. It is what she believes in, but is it really the world's morals? If it was morally wrong, wouldn't her soldiers, especially Liver, have something to say against it? Also, without our introspective, most of the commoners would consider Night Raid as lacking morals due to assassinations. However, those who know Night Raid and the rebel army probably do not view Night Raid as negatively moral.

That's one of the problems then. We are not shown enough of the common world to fully grasp it's moral standards.
What we see are the viewpoints of either Night Raid or the Empire, with Tatsumi being the closest thing to "the common person" we got (And even here you can argue that his moral standarts only reflect the rural town he grew up in).

But yes, the common people would see Night Raid as murderers. Even Najenda said they should not be proud of what they are doing.

[thundrakkon]

Originally Posted by garbage

hmmm,,, but they do know it themselves, they do know killing is wrong, and that they are damned for what they are doing, and is fully ready for all the consequences of what their actions would bring Yet their hands are tied and that's all they know they can do in the situation.. It was in the earlier episodes.

Yes, from the perspective of those present, who, btw, have similar perspectives in general, what they are doing is a necessary evil.

However, can you argue that soldier fighting in a war killing the opposition is morally wrong? I'm sure that a lot of people even in our world would not consider it morally wrong. Night Raid is part of a war on the empire. Those they kill are enemies that contribute to the bad ways of the empire.

So in the end, morals is really a matter of perspective in this situation.

Originally Posted by Kyral

That's one of the problems then. We are not shown enough of the common world to fully grasp it's moral standards.
What we see are the viewpoints of either Night Raid or the Empire, with Tatsumi being the closest thing to "the common person" we got (And even here you can argue that his moral standarts only reflect the rural town he grew up in).

Those are excellent points. We just need to be shown more of the world to truly understand it, but I do not believe that will ever happen.

Also, with Wave now entering the picture, he seems to represent Tatsumi's view, but for the empire side. I wonder if he will react any differently to what the empire is doing or to what Esdeath may order?

[garbage]

Originally Posted by Calca

Ah so Justice Girl for some reason gets a pass due to the fact that she's just "crazy" however, Esdeath is an immoral corrupt horrible human being. How is this right? You cannot apply one standard to one person and a completely different standard to another.

Also you say that Esdeath has a low view of the PM? I beg to differ, I believe this is just you being confused with the fact that she said he has high blood pressure and may keel over at any time. Esdeath never once stated she has a low view of the PM. You also think that Esdeath should push the PM for reform if she had authority? From her PoV, she has to agree with the "reform" in order to do so.

I do not give Justice Girl a PASS, and forgive her for anything if that's what you're trying to insinuate. Did you even read the whole post? HOWEVER there IS a reason why there is such a thing as an Insanity Clause in LAW. now inb4 you start spouting that their law is different I'm just using that as a jump off. The difference is Esdeath KNOWS FULL WELL WHAT SHE IS DOING. and justice girl ? maybe not. which is exactly the point! you cannot use Justice girl to excuse Esdeath (that's just a false analogy argument, anyway you try to spin it even without the insanity clause, as they are not equal in stature). So let's just stick with Esdeath and leave irrelevant points out of it.

OH, so she acts that way with the PM because she respects him much? wow, ok if that's how you view it. But I see Esdeath nothing more than Tolerating the PM, hardly in High regard. well lets not argue the point then.

And finally YES (bolded part) My point exactly from my very post on this topic, she wouldn't do reform because she's getting what she personally wants with the corrupt status-quo, so why change anything? so she perpetuates the corruption.

and Yes again I view Esdeath as an "immoral corrupt horrible human being" as much as I can glean from the episodes. will this change in the future episodes ? maybe, maybe not. but I'm leaning more on Not.

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

...
So in the end, morals is really a matter of perspective in this situation.

true this. but what i'm saying though is Night Raid members themselves believe what they are doing is morally wrong.

personally I do understand what they are doing and the necessity of it. and yet I could not bring myself to paint what they are doing as morally right. So i'm probably with the NR members view themselves. If I am in their world. I probably wont pass NR entrance requirements & test (even if by chance I have as much fighting power as tatsumi ^^) I'll probably try to find a different way (yeah I know.... quite naive) and would probably die a horrible death in the hands of Esdeath or the PM's henchmen

[mangatron]

Originally Posted by garbage

isn't that part of the problem? let me set an example. At various times in the past I've had a chance to talk with the scions of certain rich, powerful, political clans ( in a relaxed setting so they're were kinda free talking.[BTW i'm also from the same country.], What bugs me most when they start talking about government funds is that they talk as if THEY OWN IT THEMSELVES, as if it's their GOD given right.

oh they know it, the money is not really theirs, yet they still feel they are entitled to it, and can do with it whatever they want (and can get away with) So you see how this can lead to so much corruption. unfortunately it's so much ingrained in the culture here, I shudder at the thought of how to change it

On the other parts of your post. I understand the situation perfectly as I see it everyday. But I can't really see Esdeath at the same level as a street seller, as she was touted in the Anime as one of the (if not the) most powerful Teigu user.
But she stays on, as it suits her purpose (her words exactly). If Najenda, Bulat and others were able to break away, she can. IF she really wants to.

Ah, I was merely pointing out that while the street seller can voice out against the corrupt cop, Esdese can fight back against the empire, but what can you do against the one who has all the power? Despite all the strength one has, going against the higher power in both politics and presumably strength is not very smart.

As I mentioned earlier, the thought does not seem to cross her mind, in fact nothing else seems to fill her mind other than that loving feeling

[Calca]

Originally Posted by garbage

I do not give Justice Girl a PASS, and forgive her for anything if that's what you're trying to insinuate. Did you even read the whole post? HOWEVER there IS a reason why there is such a thing as an Insanity Clause in LAW. now inb4 you start spouting that their law is different I'm just using that as a jump off. The difference is Esdeath KNOWS FULL WELL WHAT SHE IS DOING. and justice girl ? maybe not. which is exactly the point! you cannot use Justice girl to excuse Esdeath (that's just a false analogy argument, anyway you try to spin it even without the insanity clause, as they are not equal in stature). So let's just stick with Esdeath and leave irrelevant points out of it.

OH, so she acts that way with the PM because she respects him much? wow, ok if that's how you view it. But I see Esdeath nothing more than Tolerating the PM, hardly in High regard. well lets not argue the point then.

And finally YES (bolded part) My point exactly from my very post on this topic, she wouldn't do reform because she's getting what she personally wants with the corrupt status-quo, so why change anything? so she perpetuates the corruption.

and Yes again I view Esdeath as an "immoral corrupt horrible human being" as much as I can glean from the episodes. will this change in the future episodes ? maybe, maybe not. but I'm leaning more on Not.

Well even though you're ignoring the other poster arguments and focusing on mine I'll humor you. You really think Justice Girl does not know what she's doing? You claim to me that I cannot use Justice Girl to excuse Esdeath's actions, yet at the same time you get to ignore Justice Girls' actions while condemning Esdeaths? Then afterwards you suddenly declare Justice Girls' actions irrelevant to suit your needs? How does that work?

Esdeath knows full well what she is doing. Justice Girl also knows what she is doing. For you to just declare one view valid and the other insanity is just you trying to manipulate an argument to your convenience.

[garbage]

Originally Posted by Calca

Well even though you're ignoring the other poster arguments and focusing on mine I'll humor you. You really think Justice Girl does not know what she's doing? You claim to me that I cannot use Justice Girl to excuse Esdeath's actions, yet at the same time you get to ignore Justice Girls' actions while condemning Esdeaths? Then afterwards you suddenly declare Justice Girls' actions irrelevant to suit your needs? How does that work?

Esdeath knows full well what she is doing. Justice Girl also knows what she is doing. For you to just declare one view valid and the other insanity is just you trying to manipulate an argument to your convenience.

WOW well pardon me for needing to be humored,...whooo badass..LOL. if being replied to bothers you so much well then I'll happily just ignore you, what are you doing in a forum anyway if that's the case??? And for the record I wasn't the only one who replied to that post at the start (P42), and you're not the only one I'm replying to. if you bothered to read these past 2 pages. In any case what has that got to do with the argument of Esdeath's corruption. so here you go again bringing in irrelevant, strawmen.

but let me get to the real argument anyway.
As I've stated in the previous post, if you bothered to read it fully, Justice Girl cant be used as an excuse for Esdeath's actions, morality. That is a False Analogy, a logical Fallacy. What do they have in comman anyway aside from being in the empires side.
Does Justice Girl go around Annihilating whole tribes? does she go around reveling in torture? IS SHE EVEN A GENERAL? Tell me what exactly is it that Justice Girl has done that can even remotely approach the cruelty & actions of Esdeath? oh did she order the assasination of rival politicains? So what Justice Girl Actions, EXACTLY is it that i'm ignoring? Oh she went after some pickpocket IIRC, hmm would Esdeath do that?Her fight with Mine & Scheele? so what about it? they're assassins she's a low to mid level Cop of course they're gonna clash. and i'm still tryin my darndest trying to figure out the relevance you're trying to point out?... and I'm not even in to Mental Faculty part yet, because her very basis of justice is questionable, as I've stated before akin to probably a 5 yr old (EG: empire = right, against empire = wrong) She wouldn't even begin to understand fully what deeper morality is. So yes she probably knows what she's doing, in a simplistic, kiddie way. but does she REALLY UNDERSTAND? as opposed to Esdeath, Do they share the same views? ....

actually

Originally Posted by Calca

snip...
Esdeath knows full well what she is doing. ...

that is the only important point. as per my original post here

Originally Posted by garbage

don't really want to enter any Esdeath discussion but (Bolded part)> isn't that what corruption is in it's most basic sense ? self-interest and greed? without any thought to others, proper procedures, morals an such...

and no i'm not trying to manipulate any argument for my convenience lol, what is this a contest?? WHUT?? do i get a prize? I fully explain what I say in my posts , you're the one who keeps bringing in strawmen, logical fallacies, and ad hominem attacks.

[Fellen]

Oh god this is the manga thread all over again.

Let's see how many times you guys manage to get this place locked.

[thatoneguy]

Originally Posted by the one above all

Think of this is as the calm before the storm. If this thread is anything like other AgK threads I have seen things are only going to down spiral form here.

you were so right i am gone for one day and i come back to about four pages of arguments about morals and the justice girl. i miss the good old days now.

[garbage]

^ Ahaha really? well I wouldn't know since I'm mostly Anime only. Actually this is still pretty far from the whirlwind arguments & posts during the Madoka days ... now those were some good times ;P ( and probly hell for the mods )

In any case I don't really have much time to post these days anyway,...