Fate/Zero - Episode 23 Discussion / Poll

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Um, what? Saber didn't believe in her way? The whole point of her character is that her ideals are illusory yet are still sustained by her faith in them alone. It's what causes the Excalibur's majestic light and the cleansing effect it has on the heroes who gaze upon it.

Her tragic flaw is that she sought a utopian kingdom where everyone would be protected (which is where she's similar to Kiritsugu despite their adversity towards each other), but by clinging too deeply to that ideal she ended up neglecting that which makes up a kingdom - its people. It's not the fact that her heart wasn't in it that caused her downfall (because it was, even if it was the only one), but rather the fact that she went on to misguidedly play the role of the martyr, when it was a leader her country needed. Consequently, even though her quest was one of self-sacrifice, the only one who was saved by the whole ordeal was herself, because, up until Rider and now Lancelot came along, she always believed she was doing the right thing.

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. Saber believed in her ideal yes, but why? Her idea of how to be a perfect king was born from the fact that she needed to be like that to rule Britain. The way she went about her ideal is what she didn't believe in, as opposed to how Rider went about it, and that's why no one believed in her, because they thought she didn't understand people.

And Saber wasn't saved by her quest. If she had been, she wouldn't have tried to redo the selection of the King. At the very least, she would have just sent future knowledge back to herself or something. She wanted someone else to breaking because she wasn't saved, she was giving up.

[Raviel]

The Gil vs Rider fight made this episode for me, everything about it was perfect IMO.

Although I was all "that thing can stab people?" when Gil ran Rider through with Ea......also lol at Berserker trying to no-scope Saber with his Barret .50 cal.

[jeroz]

Originally Posted by MasterVampire

As much as I love Rider he really is an idiot.

Charges Saber with no real plan and looses his chariot.
Charges Archer and looses his life.

He needs to plan.

If you can't outrun that massive AOE, might as well stop it before the channeling is complete. It just happens that Saber finished channeling earlier and went for one with a smaller impact, enough to kill his chariot.

don't question an intent if you only see the result.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Raviel

also lol at Berserker trying to no-scope Saber with his Barret .50 cal.

He have perfect weapon mastery as one of his skills and is not quite sane.

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by jeroz

If you can't outrun that massive AOE, might as well stop it before the channeling is complete. It just happens that Saber finished channeling earlier and went for one with a smaller impact, enough to kill his chariot.

don't question an intent if you only see the result.

Not to mention he openly states that the fact that he just charges in against Excalibur is the entire point. Rider's not trying to defeat Saber, he's trying to save her from the curse of her ideals. Outwitting Saber will just let her think "It's not the ideals were wrong, I just was outsmarted." But if he can defeat her in a pure contest of power ( and the novel states he likely would have if it wasn't for the fact that he had to protect Waver and Saber didn't have to protect Kiritsugu), then she could see that her ideals<his power of friendship at last, with no excuses.

[Trajan]

Originally Posted by MasterVampire

As much as I love Rider he really is an idiot.

Charges Saber with no real plan and looses his chariot.
Charges Archer and looses his life.

He needs to plan.

Although I did enjoy the episode, this really bothered me as the real Alexander was a tactical and military genius, while here he simply charges forward with troops massed. It would have been nice to see Rider employ some actual tactics in his battle with Gil.

[Touko]

Originally Posted by Trajan

Although I did enjoy the episode, this really bothered me as the real Alexander was a tactical and military genius, while here he simply charges forward with troops massed. It would have been nice to see Rider employ some actual tactics in his battle with Gil.

He was trying to make a point: his best treasure (his men) vs. Gilgamesh's best treasure, in a head-on clash.

Alexander is entirely capable of dropping Gilgamesh in the middle of his army and just bury him with numbers.

On the flip side, Gilgamesh is entirely capable of just kill Alexander outright without giving him a chance to use the King's Army.

It's all a "worthy foe" honour thing.

[White Manju Bun]

Great episode, dont really know what else to add that hasnt been said. Was spoiled to Lancelot a while back but the reveal was still pretty good.

Gah I hate saying my respect for Gil went up in this but it did. Just a bit. Rider nearly had him, if not for his "bag of tricks". Im glad Rider made it to the finally epis.

[Trajan]

Originally Posted by Touko

He was trying to make a point: his best treasure (his men) vs. Gilgamesh's best treasure, in a head-on clash.

Alexander is entirely capable of dropping Gilgamesh in the middle of his army and just bury him with numbers.

On the flip side, Gilgamesh is entirely capable of just kill Alexander outright without giving him a chance to use the King's Army.

It's all a "worthy foe" honour thing.

But the thing is, Alexander's best treasure wasn't his men, it was his ability to use his men. The head-on clash just made the battle a question of "who has the better tools" rather than a question of "who can make the best use of their tools," which to me is much less interesting to watch.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Trajan

But the thing is, Alexander's best treasure wasn't his men, it was his ability to use his men.

That's a skill, not a treasure. Gil's treasure isn't that he can fire all his weapons, it's the weapon cache itself, for example.

[Touko]

Originally Posted by Trajan

But the thing is, Alexander's best treasure wasn't his men, it was his ability to use his men. The head-on clash just made the battle a question of "who has the better tools" rather than a question of "who can make the best use of their tools," which to me is much less interesting to watch.

His men is his treasure.

The Noble Phantasm is "King's Army", not "King's Strategy".

And the final confrontation is indeed your prototypical pissing contest of honour and chivalry. There was no strategy there. If there were strategies and intrigue, it would not be a head-on bash to begin with.

[Trajan]

Originally Posted by GDB

That's a skill, not a treasure. Gil's treasure isn't that he can fire all his weapons, it's the weapon cache itself, for example.

So then if you gave me Ea I could defeat Rider. As I stated in my post above, that makes the battle much less interesting.

It also cheapens Rider's interaction with Saber over the course of the series, which essentially boiled down to Rider's contention that Saber lacked the ability to truly lead men (i.e., to use her tools to their full potential). But if the power of one's tools is all that matters, then skill is unimportant and the outcome is, in a sense, predetermined.

So for example, give Rider Excalibur and the motorcycle and Saber the chariot and Rider wins, which would only seem to prove that, in that situation, Excalibur/motorcycle is the better tool, and say nothing about the underlying conflcit between Rider and Saber's ideals of kingship.

I do see a counterargument in that the treasures are physical representations of the skills and accomplishments that a hero has attained in his or her original life, which serve as proxies for the power and skills of the hero. Ionioi Hetairoi therefore becomes more than an army, and serves as physical manifestation of Rider's ability to lead and inspire other men. I don't think the series has ever gone this route (though I could be mistaken), so I don't put much stock in such an argument.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Trajan

So then if you gave me Ea

Defeats the entire purpose of "my treasure vs your treasure" if you need someone else to give you a treasure to use.

[Touko]

Rider's ability is to call on his men, who will follow him to hell and back, and then some.

Rider already demonstrated his leadership and charisma by having an army that is willing to clash with the King of Heroes (which is clearly hopeless).

Sabre's failure was already illustrated through Lancelot, who not only did not follow her, but still haunted her in the afterlife (glaring contrast with Rider).

[klare]

from the reaction of Saber, she seems does not know why Lancelot hate her so much

Rider's end is nicely done, but the overwhelming power of King Gil makes the fights in FSN no sense...

cant wait for Kiritsugu vs Kirei

[Touko]

O but she did. She finally understood what Rider's words meant.

[Trajan]

Originally Posted by GDB

Defeats the entire purpose of "my treasure vs your treasure" if you need someone else to give you a treasure to use.

Like Saber was given Excalibur by the Lady of the Lake?

[Ithekro]

Still defeats the purpose of the fight.

Besides, having just Ea wouldn't be enough. Having just Excalibur wouldn't be enough.

These weapons work like they do because they are the conceptual weapons of these heroes. Hand them to someone else and they either won't work, or they will only work once. Excalibur without Saber is just a sword (more or less). Ea without Gil is just a cone shaped protosword.

Rider's problem for this fight....he didn't know about any of Gil's special weapons. Gil had basically only been using Gates of Babylon....for everything. If the fight was Rider's Army verses the Gates of Babylon....well if would have been a long bloody battle. Gil breaks that with Ea. Rider's not ready for that. I'm not sure if he would have won if he's had his chariot against Ea (or ea's draw time).

[Trajan]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Still defeats the purpose of the fight.

Besides, having just Ea wouldn't be enough. Having just Excalibur wouldn't be enough.

These weapons work like they do because they are the conceptual weapons of these heroes. Hand them to someone else and they either won't work, or they will only work once. Excalibur without Saber is just a sword (more or less). Ea without Gil is just a cone shaped protosword.

Except that is clearly contradicted in the series. Berserker flings back Gil's noble phantasms from the Gate of Babylon and Avalon heals Iri.

I can accept the idea that the noble phantasms are "conceptual weapons," although as I noted above, the anime hasn't "earned" this interpretation.

But my original point stands that a fight between Archer and Rider which made use of the historical Alexander's reputation as the most brilliant military tactician of antiquity would have made for a much more interesting battle. Instead we got a typical (although very-nicely animated) shonen battle that consists of:

A: "I will defeat you with my supermove!" (Ionioi Hetairoi)
B: "Ha, my supermove perfectly counters your supermove!" (Ea/Enuma Elish)
A: "Ah, ha, I have another, even more super, super-suicidal move!" (Bucephalas' charge)
B:" Ha, ah ha, I have an even more supersecret supermove!" (Enkidu/Ea)

Spoiler for comparision with Accel World:

Silver Crow's fight against Scarlet Rain went down almost exactly the same way:
A: "I will defeat you with my supermove!" (Silver Crow's flight)
B: "Ha, my supermove perfectly counters your supermove!" (anti-aircraft missiles)
A: "Ah, ha, I have another, even more super, super suicidal-move!" (All or Nothing Kick)
B:" Ha, ah ha, I have an even more supersecret supermove!" (step to one side)

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Trajan

Except that is clearly contradicted in the series. Berserker flings back Gil's noble phantasms from the Gate of Babylon and Avalon heals Iri.

Berserker flings back Gil's swords but can't do anything else with them. To Berserker they're just swords (Incidentally the same is true for Gilgamesh also). His Noble Phantasm also allows him to use them too.

Avalon can only heal Irisviel when Saber is around and that's an ability ingrained in Avalon. Irisviel isn't actually using it.