Ichigo and Rukia? or Ichigo and Orihime?

[Sinta]

Originally Posted by BleachOD

HT...You are saying anything. You and your excuses make want to bang your head on desk.

You can stop with the "Pay Attention" Bit...It doesn't work. My understanding is just fine

I don't have to re-read anything. I understood it the first time...

Since you know so much. I thought you'd get it the first time.....

Spoiler for It's you who fail to understand...not the other way around:

The covers...Ichigo's black and his hair is Orange Rukia's Cover is white and she has Black hair

But more than that.. The quote "The rain brings the Black Sun Down". <---LIGHT with the presence of DARKNESS.<---Ichigo's Cover...SOULs

The quote "But the rain is dried by WHITE MOON" <--Moon rays don't dry anything, and it's only seen at night (In most places) <---DARKNESS with the presence of LIGHT <---Rukia's cover..VIBEs
You get it?

You fail at trying to make me look like I have comprehension problems...for the second or third time. Next time...either post something of substance and or don't opine...

Btw...If you really like that scene. I will get someone to make you sig...

You don't need to keep making excuses to post it... And your attempt to brainwash us into to believing that is canon, by trying to burn that image into our minds..until we believe it's real. Isn't going to work on most of us...

Well I feel enlightened, i didn't really understand what that was all about. Very nicely put Bleach OD. I actually learned something.

[BleachOD]

Originally Posted by Sinta

Well I feel enlightened, i didn't really understand what that was all about. Very nicely put Bleach OD. I actually learned something.

I am glad I could help. OD it's OD. Drop the Bleach!

I bet he really thought I didn't understand it too...

I told you before...I have an answer for everything....

What...IchiRuki are like Shinigami. We are Demon Slayers<--Purify them really...
However , since we also protect the world from The ReniRuki Viruses. In some circles are we also known as "The Cure" <---Because we rid the body of those ReniRuki Toxins...

[Amirali]

Nah. Demon slayers is passe.........it's been used in every other vampire slayer or supernatural exterminator novel. Demon brigade, now that's more original.

Me, I'm just passing the time till I see more of a response by Ichi-Ruki shippers to Kagato and Asma as to why Ichigo wasn't more eager to check on Rukia's injuries while Grimmjow was leaving, and in the immediate aftermath (while he was brooding). Other than Warchef, no-one really made an effort . Note, I'm not referring to the whole "why didn't he jump to bankai straight off" thing. That doesn't hold as much water when his bankai is in the grip of his hollow, as Marsala pointed out.

[Marsala]

Originally Posted by amirali1985

Nah. Demon slayers is passe.........it's been used in every other vampire slayer or supernatural exterminator novel. Demon brigade, now that's more original.

Me, I'm just passing the time till I see more of a response by Ichi-Ruki shippers as to why Ichigo wasn't more eager to check on Rukia's injuries while Grimmjow was leaving, and in the immediate aftermath (while he was brooding). Other than Warchef, no-one really made an effort . Note, I'm not referring to the whole "why didn't he jump to bankai straight off" thing. That doesn't hold as much water when his bankai is in the grip of his hollow.

It really doesn't matter that Ichigo wasn't eager to check on Rukia's injuries because Renji actually went over to Ichigo to chat before going to see Rukia. So either neither of them gave a damn for Rukia's injuries, or they both sensed that she was being taken care of and weren't in a hurry.

[Amirali]

Matsumoto and Renji were on the same comm-link (as could be seen in Lift the limits, when she told him the limit was off) , so Renji obviously knew that Rukia had been picked up by her. No sensing involved there.

With Ichigo...........hmm, okay, given his past reiatsu sensing skills, it seems logical that he knew Rukia wasn't dying. It wasn't really my argument actually; I just wanted to see more Ichi-Ruki shippers try to refute Kagato's and Asma's argument about that incident showing he was more in a hurry to beat up Grimm (and brood afterwards) rather than return and check up on her. Even if she wasn't on death's door, it might have been the more sensitive thing to do?
Ah well, I guess Warchef's explanation will have to suffice me.

[HayashiTakara]

Obviously the comprehension of Rukia fans has progressively degraded, so not even gonna bother bringing it up anymore. Since you guys aren't even paying attention to the context and keep bitching about the scene, its like talking to a wall.

My ass is the moon and the crack is the darkness in the moon And with the white softness of toilet paper I was able to dry my ass after taking a dump.

See I can make poems too. Pretty words can be spoken all day, but when its not shown evident in the series, it means nothing.

Since you like saying the whole "changing world thing means love" bit, I would like to enlighten that with an example. I had a once in a lifetime opportunity job interview, I overslept, and there was no way I could've made it on time through public transportation. So my friend lend me his car, and through his lending me of his car, I was able to make the interview and landed the career that ultimately changed my life. Sound familiar? Does that mean I love him? :face_shock: No, I'm just really grateful and indebted. Think about that.

[Marsala]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Obviously the comprehension of Rukia fans has progressively degraded, so not even gonna bother bringing it up anymore. Since you guys aren't even paying attention to the context and keep bitching about the scene, its like talking to a wall.

The context is that it was filler! It means nothing! Using symbolism is a weak, far-fetched argument when applied to canon material. For filler? It's just plain silly.

[Baka Ronin]

I still say nel has a much better chance at getting some actual romantic attention from Ichigo, Even if she is an Arancar. I Bet Ichigo could get Uruhara to make her a gigai. I'd love to see the look on his Father's face if he brought Nel home after this arc is over. LOL I am guessing we would see tears of pride and a little jealousy.

[debbiechan]

Hello! This is the so-named (in an earlier post) "full of shit" debbiechan dropping by to say how pleased I am with the jocularity and friendliness of this thread. I keep up with it--sometimes the inanity makes me want to shoot myself, sometimes the pettiness makes me swear off the Internet, but I have to say I admire the patience at which some of you keep at it for the sake of discourse and coming to a mutual understanding.

I had to laugh at OD's statement that she wished she and Sinta would disagree one day because in my family we love to argue--it's a lively Jewish sport--and I wish that more people would see shipping debate in that light instead of seeing it as some plague upon fandom.


HayashiTakara's analysis of yin-yang in the filler scene was perfectly lovely. Too bad it was of a filler scene and that Kubo-sensei had already attached the yin-yang imagery to canon material and to another couple with the Souls-Vibes poems and art

My ass is the moon and the crack is the darkness in the moon And with the white softness of toilet paper I was able to dry my ass after taking a dump.

See I can make poems too. Pretty words can be spoken all day, but when its not shown evident in the series, it means nothing.

I really like that poem--no, HONEST, I really like it. Some friends and I have been parodying Kubo-sensei's chapter poems lately and just about any take on white moon dries rain sends me into a spasm of giggles.

Pretty words/pointless mockery can be spoken all day and neither can be shown in the anime series but Kubo-sensei, the creator of Bleach, wrote the Soul/Vibes poems and we, fanon, created, the butt crack poems ecetera, and the former has more canonical value than the later. Simple.

*waves at Asam*

Shipping debates were more bloody in the days when I first encountered Asam. That may explain some of the hostility there. You guys are getting to be like drinking buddies and I'm encouraged by the comraderie at times here.

Watch the sh*t fly tomorrow and I'll have to eat my words.

[Sinta]

Debbiechan, You're here! *Hugs* Who said you were full of shit? Are they retarded or what? Sad sad people.

I find it interesting that people are willing to place hope in a filler scene but won't take cannon material from kubo himself. That seems like an contradiction to me.

On the ichigo not going Bankai thing, utlimately I think its just a silly argument. For both sides, Ichigo didn't go straight into his visored mode when he was fighting Grimm, does that mean he doesn't care for inoue? Of course not, its silly to say so, but i would also like to post an alternative theory. Using bankai is something concious is it not? Its something that you have to actually do. Here is something that caught my attention when I started thinking about this topic.

/Bleach/204/08/

That is the page where rukia gets gutted. Look at Ichigo's face; now let me ask you a question. When you get really upset how clearly are you thinking? I ask that because as far as i can see Ichigo is thoroughly pissed in that picture. he's going right after Grimm not really thinking because of what he did to rukia. He realizes later that he needs to use bankai and then does. Now compare the two scenes, Ichigo the calm collected and ichigo the worried and upset. So oddly enough I think its pretty easy to take the exact opposite from the two scenes that Kagato and that other guy was comparing. Funny how that works.

[Baka Ronin]

Bottom line: Ichigo may have romantic feelings but he is completely oblivious and thusly does not know how to react to them. Perhaps given time he will show something more clear so all of the arguments cease.

[Warchef]

I agree.. Either completely oblivious or his pride doesn't allow him to say anything he might percieve as weak.. Let's all just wait for the IchiUlqi fight.. I have a feeling Kubo will resolve something during that fight. If he doesn't, then I guess we might never know.

[asam_laksa]

Marsala

Originally Posted by ”Marsala”

Ichigo was hesitant to use Bankai against Grimmjow because of his fear of his inner Hollow. He knew that going Bankai would bring out his Hollow faster from his experience against Yammy and Ulquiorra. This is explained when he fought Hiyori.

Hesitation is the ‘word’. Why does he fear of his inner hollow? Is it because he
a) he fears that he would become a hollow, becoming a totally different person?
b) he fears that the victory would have been credited to his inner hollow
c) the hollow would destroy his physical body and be his, Kurosaki Ichigo’s reason of death?
d) the hollow that comes out would kill the people that he cares for?
e) that if everybody were to see his inner hollow coming out, he’s afraid that there will not be anyone who will accept him?
f) he fear the hollow himself.

Take note, all of these reasons have slight differences from each other.

My reason, after watching the anime would be (b). Unless, they’ve changed the original script (Kubo’s work).

But whatever the reason is for Ichigo not doing bankai the moment Rukia got herself punched in the middle of her stomach by Grimmjaw, it’s not important. The wound inflicted on Rukia, the way Grimmjaw did it, it’s enough to make people go ‘Oh, My God, she’s going to die any moment now.’

By the way, oft-topic, if Marsala says that the reason why Ichigo refused to do bankai, the moment was because he was afraid that his inner hollow would come out. Don’t you think it’s a very big opportunity for Kubo Tite to make it very IchiKiai, if he (Kubo) had pushed it in the direction for Ichigo to go straight to bankai? He charged on forward to Grimmjaw with bankai, adds to his power and speed, most probably be able to win against Grimmjaw,,……maybe not, Kubo could still conveniently get Tousen still to retrieve Grimmjaw, and there wouldn’t have be a won……of course his hollow comes out(because he used too much bankai), and there…..there is Rukia, wounded, but able to drive away Ichigo’s inner hollow……all because Rukia is the most important person to Ichigo…..Rukia, who doesn’t fear anything

A perfect IchiKiai love story, Kubo would have made if he had gone through the direction of bankai first, hollow comes out, Rukia sees, hollow gone backwards….don’t you think?

Of course not. Bleach isn’t really a IchiKiai love story / IchiHime love story.

But wait……Kubo did make it in that direction, using Orihime as the first person first saw Ichigo being hollowfied, and ultimately cause Ichigo to retreat back his inner hollow, causing him to lose at the second game around…..but when Orihime cries out to him to tell him she doesn’t want Ichigo to hurt himself anymore for her sake…..physically, mentally and emotionally…..he used his remaining hollow powers that are left and won the battle.

Of course, some people can argue this …..Kubo letting Orihime be the first person to see Ichigo capitalizing his hollow powers as the stepping stones to move towards anti-IchiHime direction…..Orihime needed the cold shock treatment to see Ichigo, isn’t really a Prince Charming as she envisioned him to be.

Remember….Bleach is not antiIchiHime / IchiHime love story.

Originally Posted by ”Marsala”

The context is that it was filler! It means nothing! Using symbolism is a weak, far-fetched argument when applied to canon material. For filler? It's just plain silly.

I remembered some people who used filler materials to prove IchiKiai also; like one prime fine example…..Nell asking Rukia what is her connection with Ichigo……some ppl, of course I’m referring IchiKiais of course….jumped into it, used it to prove their pairing, the animators knows Kubo Tite endorsed IchiKiai. What about that ‘Ririn being so jealous with Ichigo and Rukia’?

I personally endorse using everything in the Bleach anime, fillers / not fillers…..why because these people who produce the anime, know Japanese better than most of us here….or else, how then are they going to write the script and storyline?


Amirali…..I hope you don’t mind….it’s never anything personal against you, just them. >.>.

Originally Posted by ”amirali”

Before saying anyhting else........I should point out that Ichigo can sense reiatsu. He would have known if she was really about to croak. That said, it would still have been the sincere friend thing to go to her side as soon as he had the chance. To be honest, what I found most amusing was when Grimmjaw was returning to HM.....Ichigo should've been thinking , "thank goodness he's going, now I can go check on Rukia's serious injuries". Really, isn't that what a lover.......or even a good friend.....should have uppermost on his mind? Instead he's all "where are you going, you #$!#$!? Let's finish this!"

With Ichigo...........hmm, okay, given his past reiatsu sensing skills, it seems logical that he knew Rukia wasn't dying. It wasn't really my argument actually; I just wanted to see more Ichi-Ruki shippers try to refute Kagato's and Asma's argument about that incident showing he was more in a hurry to beat up Grimm (and brood afterwards) rather than return and check up on her. Even if she wasn't on death's door, it might have been the more sensitive thing to do?
Ah well, I guess Warchef's explanation will have to suffice me.

Therefore….since you are assuming /theorizing that Ichigo being able to sense Rukia not dying there, all the while he fought with Grimmjaw…….is it safe to say then, that really the chapter 213, is really not about how he failed to Rukia especially, failed to protect her as he should……but rather the fact that he was weaker than that arrancar(Grimmjaw) ….he could not defeat Grimmjaw and win over him?

I shall leave it as that……

Originally Posted by ”amirali”

Mind, I'm still on the Ichi-Ruki side here, if only on the interpretation of this incident. I think Ichigo was just so furious at Grimm for hurting Rukia that his testosterone and desire for revenge made him forget her injuries for a moment. It's not just this time; we've seen it on different occasions in HM arc also. Ichigo's like a bulldog........once he determines a group of people are the enemies of his friends..........he will focus all his attention and anger on them. It can make shippers accuse him of being uninterested in the welfare of either Rukia (this Grimm incident) or with Orihime

Hitsugaya, on knowing what Aizen had done to Hinamori, went straight bankai to attack Aizen and Ichimaru. Eventhough Hitsugaya knows that unleashing bankai in Soul Society, especially in Seiretei is wrong. Remember what they said, it’s a terrifiying thing when two captains fight with each other…..even with shikai. And we know how important Hinamori is to Hitsugaya.

Originally Posted by ”amirali”

Or, if you're like me...........you think he did that because he saw how badly hurt Chad was. After all, the first thing he asked yammy after bankai was "did you do that to Chad's arm"? And then he cut Yammi's arm off as punishment. Again, that shows a bit of the vengeful side of Ichi's personality. If it was always only about protecting his friends, he wouldn't always make a point of teaching his enemy a lesson....it would just be win as fast as you can.

As for why he didn't use it straight off against Grimmjaw. How do we know it wasn't because he was afraid of his hollow taking over?The last time he used bankai was against Yammi, and we saw how that turned out. That's hardly him being selfish or neglectful of Rukia. If he dies because he can't control his hollow, he won't be of any help to her. That's a good enough reason to hesitate before using bankai.

Still…..he asked Grimmjaw to stay on, to continue the fight with him…..knowing that anymore further on bankaing…..would ultimately make his hollow come out finally.

That would then, contradict Marsala’s reasoning that the reason why Ichigo decided to start off with shikai only, was because he refused to let his hollow come out via bankai.


Another thing……when Grimmjaw came, approaching Ichigo and Rukia…..Rukia noted how high, powerful dark and meanacing Grimmjaw’s reiatsu is….similar to the likes of Yammy and Ulquiorra’s. Why Ichigo started to attack Grimmjaw with just his shikai, despite the knowledge and sensing of Grimmjaw’s reiatsu…..nobody knows.

For now, I think it’s because Kubo Tite wasn’t thinking about any pairing when he wrote the story. Or was he, as what other people theorized…..that he wrote it in such a way that made certain fans feel superior how Ichigo acted to that kind of girl and not to the other one.

Spoiler for ” “:

]
when his first thought after Kenpachi saved him, was of going to tackle the remaining espada, instead of escorting Orihime home personally.

Originally Posted by ”amirali”

That's not entirely callous of him.........he knows that he has friends and allies who can take care of all the healing stuff. He's a fighter. It's incongruous sometimes.........to become the kind of person who can protect his friends, he becomes someone who's not directly focused on their immediate needs.........that is, he becomes someone who loves battle and proving his strength, and now, crushing the espada, his enemies in the war. It is rooted in good intentions, but it leads him away from focusing on his friends sometimes. Anyway, this is shounen, so we probably won't see that potential contradiction endanger his friends or be portrayed as anything less than 100% positive. Pity. It would be interesting.

Do you really believe what these people are saying, amirali what these people are saying, that he basically went to Huenco Mundo just to fight, and not to save Orihime?

Bear in mind….these are only Grimmjaw’s words and Kenpachi’s words…..not really from Ichigo’s mouth. And even then….you have to take them in context.

As for Ichigo saying that he wanted to follow……what is wrong with him wanting to follow? Like what Grimmjaw said, only when Ichigo saw that Orihime is alright, Ichigo could relax. What is wrong with him helping Kenpachi to fight Aizen, as long as Orihime is with him by his side? After all, if I am Ichigo, as long as I know that Orihime is by side, safe…….I wouldn’t mind fighting with Kenpachi, provided that Orihime is by my side. For who knows, Aizen might take her away if I’m not by her side protecting.

As long as Aizen is defeated, there’s no way Orihime is going to be safe. Like it or not…..Ichigo knows it and has to join Kenpachi, if he wants Orihime to be safe.

Unless….Orihime stays with Ichigo in his house, as long as Aizen is there, free.

Originally Posted by ”amirali”

To be fair, when comparing Orihime and Nel's knowledge of Ichigo..........Inoue would know him a lot better, would she not? But I guess I can respect if you feel no-one's words but Ichigo's are to be trusted as a source of knowledge about Ichigo. It's a consistent approach, whether or not it would be my own.

Personally, I don't see why Ichi-Ruki fans would have a problem with Nel's interpretation. Even leaving aside Nel not knowing Ichigo well........ Nel was trying to cheer Orihime up........so she obviously presented it in the most positive light possible.

And what she said was pretty much true. Sure, there are additional Ichi-Ruki undertones to that scene, but why would Nel even care, much less bother to tell Inoue that when she's trying to encourage her? Also, I still fail to see why interpretations of that scene have to always be of either/or form. It's perfectly plausible that Ichigo was pissed at Ulqi for kidnapping Orihime, and also that he waned to dispose of him quickly so that he could get back to saving Rukia and then Orihime.

Nell was cheering Orihime? I thought it was more like Nell ordering Orihime to cheer Ichigo because the battle Ichigo was fighting for…..I don’t know whether it was the battle Ichigo with Grimmjaw Nell was referring to….but I’m very sure that Nell told Orihime off to go cheering Ichigo.

But, let’s for a moment, pretend to be Nell……

Chad’s reiatsus fell……Ichigo noticed it, and start squishing Nell, to the point Nell dies…..Ichigo apologizes, said that he was not himself, but he still went forward (towards Orihime’s reiatsus)….he didn’t go back for Chad.

Ichigo suddenly noticed Rukia’s reiatsus from behind…..Ulquiorra appeared in front, tells him, ‘Hey Rukia is dead.’. Ichigo went shock (I have to be fair)…..said, ‘I don’t believe you, I’m going to save Rukia.’…… turns back towards Rukia’s direction….about to go and save her, while Ulquiorra who still remained in his position, asked, ‘You’re not going to kill me? Why?”. Ichigo turned his head and answered, “You haven’t harm my nakama yet.”. “Okay,” said Ulquiorra, shrugging his head. “What if I tell you I AM THE ONE WHO BROUGHT ORIHIME TO HUENCO MUNDO”. Nell, who was carried by Ichigo in his arms, was dropped carelessly to the ground as Ichigo shunpoed to hit on Ulquiorra(not flirting sense). Of course, the Ichigo’s famous ‘IchiHime or anti-IchiHime talk’ scream, Ichigo screaming that because of Ulquiorra, Orihime was labeled as a traitor

Poor Ichigo…..he couldn’t stand a chance against Ulquiorra. Nell watched Ichigo ‘died’ in horror, before another Espada comes in with a human girl dressed in arrancar clothing. That human girl healed, perhaps probably unwittingly brought Ichigo back to life. Fight, fight between Ulquiorra and Grimmjaw, witness by Nell….who comes into the conclusion that this is the girl, Ichigo and Ulquiorra were talking about, the girl, who thanks to Ulquiorra was branded a traitor, making Ichigo very angry.

And when Grimmjaw conveniently defeated Ulquiorra…..Orihime was then choked by Grimmjaw, but Ichigo went and saved Orihime’s neck. Ichigo asked Orihime to heal him, and also heal Grimmjaw so that they could fight on equal grounds……


don’t know what happened to Rukia, the girl whom Ulquiorra mentioned earlier.


It's quite easy for Nell to compute then that the fight Ichigo had been fighting now was really for Orihime's sake.

Maybe Ichigo had a better sensor ability, he still was able to detect Rukia’s little reiatsus.

Or maybe……Kubo Tite couldn’t care whether it’s going to be IchiHime / IchiKiai…….he just went on and on.






Sinta, darling…..

My test went fine, insurance law was painful, but now its over. Thank goodness for that.


Let me get this straight, the argument is that ichigo doesn't care about rukia because he didn't use bankai the minute grimm showed right? Wow. Just wow. This is the same ichigo that said he gained bankai for rukia right? Seems like a pretty shallow argument if you ask me. I don't think it says anything that he didn't wipe out bankai the minute that grimm showed. (It was like a half a second later). I actually think the scenes are tough to compare. IN the earlier scene, Ichigo already saw that two of his friends were close to death and that inoue was about to die. Also did you consider the fact that there were TWO espada instead of one? He was planning on fighting both Ulq and Yammi so he went to his most powerful form. I also think that he was venting his frustration concerning his hollow. He was angry, scared and frustrated. He wanted to end it, now. So he went bankai. Sorry but i think very little of that actual scene has to do with inoue.

Oh, he did say that the power he gained was for Rukia’s sake. However, the sad part is this…..he thought his shikai was just enough to handle Byakuya’s bankai.

Eventhough Yoruichi told him that the only way to confront Byakuya’s bankai was another bankai.

I don’t know about you, but the way I see it, Ichigo intended to go play, play with Byakuya after he told Renji to go off with Rukia, that from now on….Rukia’s safety is Renji’s responsibility.

Sad, sad, sad......

Originally Posted by ”Sinta”

/Bleach/204/08/

That is the page where rukia gets gutted. Look at Ichigo's face; now let me ask you a question. When you get really upset how clearly are you thinking? I ask that because as far as i can see Ichigo is thoroughly pissed in that picture. he's going right after Grimm not really thinking because of what he did to rukia. He realizes later that he needs to use bankai and then does. Now compare the two scenes, Ichigo the calm collected and ichigo the worried and upset. So oddly enough I think its pretty easy to take the exact opposite from the two scenes that Kagato and that other guy was comparing. Funny how that works.

*yawns*
Seriously….so you’d prefer going to (a) ….with (a) being
a) Ichigo’s too stupid at that moment, that he was not thinking sense when he saw Rukia being gutted in the middle…..eventhough Rukia notices easily how powerful and reiatsu Grimmjaw’s one was(before getting gutted, of course) (and if Rukia can notice easily the type of reiatsu Grimmjaw is emitting, so can Ichigo)..
rather than…..
b) Ichigo hesitated because he feared his inner hollow(Marsala's arguments) more than he feared Rukia’s injuries and life?
c) Pride, a matter of test that he can do everything, without the need of his hollow?

Sad, sad, sad people......sorry, it shouldn't be people.....I do have respect for all......

Sad, sad, sad man (singular, it's meant to be that one person).

[Searcher]

WOW, asam_laksa, nice post. Worth a cookie, but I have to spread it around, so later then
It's good to see another side to a story. Liked your example from Naruto, it was a good one.
Keep giving us your points of view, I find it very interresting.

[HayashiTakara]

Its not the scene thats important, its the colors. Heres something more canon to better illustrate.

Spoiler for Space:

See the correlation, between the Yin -Yang and Orihime and Ichigo in color usage?

Oh heres something I've been thinking about for awhile, The poems and what nots about the whole black sun and white moon thing was done years ago pre-SS right? (correct me if I'm wrong, as It was probably during.), Ichigo being the Sun and Rukia being the moon, but as time went on, its been pointed out by people that in the series Ichigo has been referred to as the moon and Orihime as the sun. So I came to thinking, and notice Kubo's way of re-enforcing that idea. So bear with me, as I'll be using laymen terms.

Spoiler for Size and Images:

Moon (Ichigo) all dampered down.



Orihime being the Sun to brighten the moon. (as we all know the moon gains light from the sun being behind it.



Moon taken notice of the sun.



Moon is revitalized.



And kicks ass

[Kakashi]

Hayashi ~

Firstly, great post and great eye to see that. I'd like to see how OD worms her way out of that one. Secondly, your comment at the end made me quite hard. It's classic HT!

[Warchef]

I think the thing about the Sun/Moon debate is the lack of Kubo actually writing something along the lines of Ichigo being the moon etc.

I think personally that it's some kind of trick by Kubo. I noticed most IchiHime fans have come to the conclusion that Ichigo is the moon because of his abilities. What I think most people don't realize is that Ichigo got his powers from Rukia, who uses "moon" in one of her attacks. If you notice Ichigo's bankai, the chain bears a similarity to the white ribbon hanging off Rukia's shikai.

Also, it doesn't make sense that Ichigo is the moon, as judging by Kubo's latest artbook, he still thinks of her as the moon, since he drew her in the foreground with the moon behind her.

If he had changed his idea of who symbolizes what, then wouldn't he have refrained from drawing Rukia with a moon behind her?

It confuzzles me. Still, it makes one think what Kubo is up to.

I think what Kubo means when he refers to Ichigo as the Black Sun is the fact that he wears the Shinigami's black shihakushou and his hair is fiery orange, like the sun. At this point in time, without any further explanation by Kubo, I think calling Ichigo the moon is kind of iffy.

[Amirali]

Asam, of course I would never mind . It's an argument here; you were actually very polite. I may be oversensitive at times, but I respect a fun debate. I'll get back to you with a proper response soon, if I think I have anything worthwhile to say.... And Sinta, that was a harsh delete post comment

hayashi, that was a beautiful post. Nice imagery. Both the yin-yang and ass-crack post. However, here are at least two of the things OD will say (and probably more) :

1) The anime team are being overly original and disrespectful to Kubo, who is the true creator and owner of Bleach.
2) As AmyCore pointed out (and Hana), the moon references are only w.r.t Ichigo's powers and his sword, not Ichigo himself :P.

On a personal note, considering that some Ichi-Ruki people also use the colours of Zangetsu(black) and Rukia's sword(white)to illustrate the compatibility between them.........I think the distinction between the Zanpakutou and it's owner's attributes is a little bit forced. And oh, it's good to see that HT and Od have stopped ignoring each other's posts .

A partial response though, asam:

Spoiler for Manga, 300 plus:

Originally Posted by asam_laksa

Marsala
Do you really believe what these people are saying, amirali what these people are saying, that he basically went to Huenco Mundo just to fight, and not to save Orihime?

Bear in mind….these are only Grimmjaw’s words and Kenpachi’s words…..not really from Ichigo’s mouth. And even then….you have to take them in context.

As for Ichigo saying that he wanted to follow……what is wrong with him wanting to follow? Like what Grimmjaw said, only when Ichigo saw that Orihime is alright, Ichigo could relax. What is wrong with him helping Kenpachi to fight Aizen, as long as Orihime is with him by his side? After all, if I am Ichigo, as long as I know that Orihime is by side, safe…….I wouldn’t mind fighting with Kenpachi, provided that Orihime is by my side. For who knows, Aizen might take her away if I’m not by her side protecting.
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I think you actually just said what I intended . I struggle to make myself clear sometimes. I think that is the kind of person Ichigo is, that he feels he can serve his friends best, by fighting and kicking ass of all their enemies. It's what he does. I was just pointing out that it makes people go, "oh look he cares more about fighting Grimmjow than saving Orihime in HM" or he "cares more about hurting Grimmjow than checking on Rukia's injuries". That's unfair to him, on both counts.

So Ichigo wanted to knock out Aizen and all the espada after saving Orihime. These are the people who've tried to kill Rukia, who've hurt Orihime, Ichigo And Chad in the past, and want to wipe out his entire home town. How exactly is he being a bad friend (or whatever) by wanting to take them out before they attempt to hurt his loved ones again in the very near future:S?

It's maybe not as touchy-feely and sweet, as if he lifted her up and escorted her personally back. But it's very practical. It's not like Ichigo was in a rush to pick up Rukia from Byakuya and take her back to the real world either. In both cases (Rukia's safety and Orihime's safety), Ichigo was confident that they would be fine with the captains around for security.

So, that's enough of you and I agreeing over everything, Asam. Where you and I disagree, Asam, is on his motivations during the Grimmjow fight. I really think that all overanalysis aside, that Ichigo was so furious at Grimm for hurting Rukia that all he could think about was hurting him in return, instead of checking up on Rukia. So what? That hardly shows he doesn't care for Rukia. One could even say that it shows he does. Just that he acts more on basis of his emotions than logic sometimes.

Yes, it was a little insensitive of him not to take care of Rukia's injuries first. But he knows there are a whole bunch of shinigami in town, and he assumes (perhaps carelessly) that someone else can handle the healing.

Still…..he asked Grimmjaw to stay on, to continue the fight with him…..knowing that anymore further on bankaing…..would ultimately make his hollow come out finally.

That would then, contradict Marsala’s reasoning that the reason why Ichigo decided to start off with shikai only, was because he refused to let his hollow come out via bankai.

You're very logical. Ichigo was off his rocker to call Grimm back, given that he was overmatched without having control over his hollow. Never mind that he didn't look like he wanted to take the chance to check back on Rukia. The problem is you're assuming Ichigo is also so logical! If he wasn't so hotblooded, then why would he have challenged Grimm to a fight that he had almost no chance to win?

Ichigo can think things through, but sometimes his emotions get the better of him. Especially when he's fighting someone who's hurt a friend (any friend).

@Sinta: Regarding Ichigo not going to Vaizard mode in front of Inoue right away............shrugs. Maybe he just doesn't feel comfortable showing it in front of his friends yet? (Note that he went Vaizard instantly against Ulquiorra, when Inoue wasn't around to see him). It's hardly the prettiest sight, and I can understand why he would want to hold back on using it until he feels the need. Of course, I know you're not using this as an argument against Ichi-hime, but no harm in me attempting to explain it.

[Sinta]

Originally Posted by amirali1985

:Asam, of course I would never mind . It's an argument here; you were actually very polite. I may be oversensitive at times, but I respect a fun debate. I'll get back to you with a proper response soon, if I think I have anything worthwhile to say.... And Sinta, that was a harsh delete post comment

Its better this way Amiral, trust me. Besides there others who are capable and willing. I don't need to deal with Asam's arguments I'm sure that there will be plenty others who will take up the challenge. Asam and I can't agree on any common ground. Its hard to debate when you don't agree on the very basics.

[Marsala]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Its not the scene thats important, its the colors. Heres something more canon to better illustrate.

Spoiler for Space:

See the correlation, between the Yin -Yang and Orihime and Ichigo in color usage?

You're still blowing up something that was insignificant in the manga. Ichigo and all of the Shinigami's clothing is black lined with white (Rukia's in particular is the same, as shown in the color spread of chapter 286). Orihime and all of Aizen's forces' clothing is white lined with black. This is not distinct to Ichigo and Orihime. It cannot be used to establish anything between them. Hell, Ishida is also white lined with black. It's pure fashion.

Oh heres something I've been thinking about for awhile, The poems and what nots about the whole black sun and white moon thing was done years ago pre-SS right? (correct me if I'm wrong, as It was probably during.), Ichigo being the Sun and Rukia being the moon, but as time went on, its been pointed out by people that in the series Ichigo has been referred to as the moon and Orihime as the sun. So I came to thinking, and notice Kubo's way of re-enforcing that idea. So bear with me, as I'll be using laymen terms.

Spoiler for Size and Images:

Moon (Ichigo) all dampered down.



Orihime being the Sun to brighten the moon. (as we all know the moon gains light from the sun being behind it.



Moon taken notice of the sun.



Moon is revitalized.



And kicks ass

Again, this scene wasn't as dramatic in the manga. There was no "sunlight" from Orihime, just a few action zoom lines. The anime director added the light to make the scene more dramatic. You're analyzing stuff added by the anime, which is meaningless in the long run.