AnimeSuki Forums

Verso Sciolto · 2017-10-27, 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0cean

Just think about it for a minute. [...] Because, why else would they even want to share time?

Just think about that for more than a minute. Can you come up with other reasons?

Obelisk ze Tormentor · 2017-10-27, 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0cean

Just think about it for a minute. In what kind of setting would it make sense for enemies to hang out all the time? And if they rarely meet each other, how can they both be protagonists without one of them being delegated to that character the real protagonist has to beat?

If you read the OP’s comment carefully, you’ll find that he was questioning why male & female MCs have to almost-always end up as lovers instead of rivals or enemies.

Regardless of gender, we have many stories where two protags started as bestfriends and hung out together but then they ended up as enemies (eg. Xavier & Magneto in X-Men movies, Guts & Griffith, Obi Wan & Anakin/Vader, etc). Switch the gender of one of those people in each pair into female and you pretty much got what the thread-starter wants. And in my example of Blue Dragon anime…

Spoiler for final arc in Blue Dragon:

Even in Garo: Honoo no Kokuin anime & Flashpoint Paradox comic/animated movie, there are subplots where a pair of husband and wife who loved each other deeply ended up being enemies. I guess that's the kind of stories that the thread-starter yearns for (or at least curious about)

0cean · 2017-10-28, 04:41

I can't come up with reasons to share time with my enemy. Maybe if we're both trapped somehow...

Both Magneto and Griffith ceased to be main characters and became "that character the real protagonist has to beat". If that's the kind of thing that OP wonders about, then the answer is because it's boring. There is no honor in defeating a girl and Shoujo/Josei stuff where the girl would remain as the protagonist generally do not explore these kind of topics.

Enmity also doesn't make for all that good of a story, so it's mostly played as a "last boss" card of sorts. With a final confrontation between the former friends. For a very loose definition of final, mind you, depending on how long the story goes on. Because as I said, there's no point in sharing much time with your enemy, so it can't be much more than a subplot, but one that will lock you, as a writer, in until it is resolved. Meaning you've got two characters that are both kind of important, but that can't share much time with each other. That's just troublesome.

Obelisk ze Tormentor · 2017-10-28, 06:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0cean

I can't come up with reasons to share time with my enemy. Maybe if we're both trapped somehow...

When protags become enemies, that doesn't mean they have to share time or hang out together you know. The story can easily make them encounter each other multiple times and get in each other's way just like Xavier & Magneto. Just switch the gender of one of them and you basically got it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0cean

Both Magneto and Griffith ceased to be main characters and became "that character the real protagonist has to beat". If that's the kind of thing that OP wonders about, then the answer is because it's boring.

Following two protags who were originally friends but then becoming enemies is not as impossible as you might think. Gundam SEED proved that with the story basically following two enemy protags in Kira & Athrun. And boring? That really depends on the writing. Gundam SEED is successful in that department at the very least, becoming one of the most popular mecha anime as well as rejuvenating the mecha genre in 2000s & 2010s as well as nabbing the AGP awards for best anime IIRC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0cean

There is no honor in defeating a girl

Yes there is. It all depends on the story. If the girl, for example, becomes a very powerful villain that's hellbent on mass murder or world destruction, there is definitely honor in "defeating a girl". The recent Re:Creators anime already proved that, as well as tons of other anime that have female villains or last boss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0cean

and Shoujo/Josei stuff where the girl would remain as the protagonist generally do not explore these kind of topics.

And that non-exploration is basically what the thread-starter is wondering about because it can be done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0cean

Enmity also doesn't make for all that good of a story, so it's mostly played as a "last boss" card of sorts. With a final confrontation between the former friends. For a very loose definition of final, mind you, depending on how long the story goes on. Because as I said, there's no point in sharing much time with your enemy, so it can't be much more than a subplot, but one that will lock you, as a writer, in until it is resolved. Meaning you've got two characters that are both kind of important, but that can't share much time with each other. That's just troublesome.

Already answered above, more or less. Also, Light/Kira from Death Note is basically the last boss and protagonist of the story at the same time. And he shares so much time with his enemy, L, who has the role of a hero or figure of justice. See? It's not impossible, and it can be successful if done well.

0cean · 2017-10-28, 06:56

All your examples have two dudes. I was talking about mixed genders. There's no point in rivalry between a man and a woman. That's probably why it's so rare. It's possible if both are children, but in adulthood I think it just won't work. As I said, there is just no point or at least I feel that way.

Obelisk ze Tormentor · 2017-10-28, 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0cean

All your examples have two dudes. I was talking about mixed genders.

Exactly, and that's part of the reason why the thread-starter make this thread. All they have to do is just switch the gender of one of them. It's that easy. I mean, imagine if Athrun from Gundam SEED is a female soldier and ace pilot instead of the male one that we got. I think nobody would've mind that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0cean

There's no point in rivalry between a man and a woman. That's probably why it's so rare.

It depends on the story. You can't generalize something so basic. Context matters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0cean

It's possible if both are children, but in adulthood I think it just won't work. As I said, there is just no point or at least I feel that way.

My examples above already proved otherwise, more or less. Again, all they have to do is switch the gender of one party, that's it.

SeijiSensei · 2017-10-28, 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0cean

All your examples have two dudes. I was talking about mixed genders. There's no point in rivalry between a man and a woman.

Shows about games like Chihayafuru suggest rivalries between opposite sexes. Chihaya v Arata seems a likely future for them both. In most other games like Shougi and Go, there is more sex segregation in competitions than in karuta and so fewer opportunities from cross-gender rivalries.

And the aforementioned Re:Creators had a number of men arrayed against a woman.

Spoiler:

Sackett · 2017-11-05, 01:35

Well, this isn't exactly an anime/manga issue. This is a story issue. As the old saying goes, stories should end with either a wedding or a funeral.

Basically happy stories are about the MC becoming a full human and complete person - that usually includes romantic completion - so it's natural that your male MC and female MC are going to become lovers in a happy ending story.

Tragedies are where the hero is flawed, and their hubris and other flaws inevitably doom them to destruction - which is finalized when they die and the world rejoices that the evil has perished. Because of this usually the tragedy is written so that the MC alienates all his friends and drives away everyone that might help him. Usually with the penultimate act before his death being the rejection of the love of the female MC. (Thus showing how utterly nonredeemable he is).

Thus it's not a natural story line for the male MC and female MC to end as enemies. You could have a story where they start as rivals and then develop a romance - that variation is not uncommon at all.

The most natural version would probably be a tragedy where the male and female MC are friends or even lovers and then become enemies because one of them becomes evil. Probably the male MC becomes evil and the female MC ends up having to lead the resistance that ends with killing him. I can't help but feel I've read a story with that plot line before, but I can't think of it. Still, it's going to be rare, because most tragedies are told from the perspective of the villain, not both the villain and heroine simultaneously.

You could do a parallel story where there are rival pairings with two male MC and two female MC, and they pair off and thus are rivals with each other.

And I suppose that technically you could have the female MC stay the "friendly rival" character and have some secondary female character as the romance interest - but then why isn't she the main female character?

Story structure just naturally tends to be against the type of story you are asking for.

Saint rider 890 · 2017-11-20, 05:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sackett

Well, this isn't exactly an anime/manga issue. This is a story issue. As the old saying goes, stories should end with either a wedding or a funeral.

Basically happy stories are about the MC becoming a full human and complete person - that usually includes romantic completion - so it's natural that your male MC and female MC are going to become lovers in a happy ending story.

Tragedies are where the hero is flawed, and their hubris and other flaws inevitably doom them to destruction - which is finalized when they die and the world rejoices that the evil has perished. Because of this usually the tragedy is written so that the MC alienates all his friends and drives away everyone that might help him. Usually with the penultimate act before his death being the rejection of the love of the female MC. (Thus showing how utterly nonredeemable he is).

Thus it's not a natural story line for the male MC and female MC to end as enemies. You could have a story where they start as rivals and then develop a romance - that variation is not uncommon at all.

The most natural version would probably be a tragedy where the male and female MC are friends or even lovers and then become enemies because one of them becomes evil. Probably the male MC becomes evil and the female MC ends up having to lead the resistance that ends with killing him. I can't help but feel I've read a story with that plot line before, but I can't think of it. Still, it's going to be rare, because most tragedies are told from the perspective of the villain, not both the villain and heroine simultaneously.

You could do a parallel story where there are rival pairings with two male MC and two female MC, and they pair off and thus are rivals with each other.

And I suppose that technically you could have the female MC stay the "friendly rival" character and have some secondary female character as the romance interest - but then why isn't she the main female character?

Story structure just naturally tends to be against the type of story you are asking for.

did you read all obelisk said ?

Sackett · 2017-11-22, 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saint rider 890

did you read all obelisk said ?

Yes, and I pointed out why he's wrong and those kinds of stories he's arguing for are always going to be less popular than other stories that follow a more traditional story line.

Basically I'm saying that there are reasons why people write stories the way they do. Breaking those conventions just to break conventions is not going to be successful. You have to understand those conventions and then break them in an interesting way, which is a lot more challenging than just gender flipping a character or two.

Obelisk ze Tormentor · 2017-11-22, 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sackett

Yes, and I pointed out why he's wrong and those kinds of stories he's arguing for are always going to be less popular than other stories that follow a more traditional story line.

Heh, I was wrong? About what?

About popularity? I never argue that opposite-sex frenemies will automatically be popular. Please point to the part in my comments where I said so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sackett

Basically I'm saying that there are reasons why people write stories the way they do.

And I’m arguing that making opposite-sex frenemies is totally possible and can be done (see my previous posts). But not many shows do it due to a number of reasons. One of which I already elaborated in my very first post back in the first page, which does not contradict your point. So, what are we disagreeing again?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sackett

Breaking those conventions just to break conventions is not going to be successful. You have to understand those conventions and then break them in an interesting way, which is a lot more challenging than just gender flipping a character or two.

Are you by any chance referring to my comments about gender-flipping one party of the frenemy pairs like Xavier x Magneto, Guts x Griffith and Obi Wan x Darth Vader? If yes, I guess you missed one important point: I argued that the gender-flipping can be done by showrunners (if we want to fulfill what the thread-starter wants), but I never guarantee that the gender-flip will make the story successful by itself. The success really depends on the execution and whether or not the masses are willing to accept/embrace it. Heck, let me do your work and quote myself:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

It's not impossible, and it can be successful if done well.

So, tell me again: which part did I do wrong?

m4d75 · 2017-12-08, 15:37

Making an anime is for bussiness profit to their companies not for hobby..., so if somebody ask about MC in anime no matter male or female which the story got a romance, they will always make a good story from MC eventhough they still have to speculate if success or not later.

Since up 2010 until now, most story of animes which have a romance end with harem ending (part of it is ecchi and comedy hahahaha) because these genre of anime is the most business profit for them..., so it's not easy to make a story about MC for male and female as rival/enemy..., you will have to think really hard for your story to be more popular by reviewer or people from drama genres.
Eventhough some of animes will end up with MC male will choose 1 female as MC/Support (vice versa) or won't choose them at all, it depend on story of author hahaha..., and the others anime will end up with tragic story.

But mostly the companies won't choose a story about MC male and female as a rival because of what Sackett said lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sackett

Story structure just naturally tends to be against the type of story you are asking for.

Mad Pierrot · 2017-12-08, 21:42

Citing an example there was Jojo Part 2 and

Spoiler for prepare:

Still, not every series so far has had the leads becoming lovers like

Spoiler for spoilers:

rladls2121 · 2017-12-11, 15:47

What about Pocket Monsters Advanced Generation?
Although Haruka is not really the main character, she has like two male rivals, though i kind of forgot how they were.

Rivalries from Pokemon Diamond and Pearl i like this one the most.
Something like this, and make one of them a female character without being a potential lover of course.

Mad Pierrot · 2017-12-11, 16:36

Also, Pokemon Adventure Ruby and Shapphire.....

Spoiler for spoiler:

Saint rider 890 · 2017-12-12, 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad Pierrot

Also, Pokemon Adventure Ruby and Shapphire.....

Spoiler for spoiler:

Why don't just look to Obelisk says ? He explain all .

2017-10-28, 04:41	Link #23
0cean Transfer Adventurer Join Date: Oct 2017	I can't come up with reasons to share time with my enemy. Maybe if we're both trapped somehow... Both Magneto and Griffith ceased to be main characters and became "that character the real protagonist has to beat". If that's the kind of thing that OP wonders about, then the answer is because it's boring. There is no honor in defeating a girl and Shoujo/Josei stuff where the girl would remain as the protagonist generally do not explore these kind of topics. Enmity also doesn't make for all that good of a story, so it's mostly played as a "last boss" card of sorts. With a final confrontation between the former friends. For a very loose definition of final, mind you, depending on how long the story goes on. Because as I said, there's no point in sharing much time with your enemy, so it can't be much more than a subplot, but one that will lock you, as a writer, in until it is resolved. Meaning you've got two characters that are both kind of important, but that can't share much time with each other. That's just troublesome. __________________

2017-10-28, 06:56	Link #25
0cean Transfer Adventurer Join Date: Oct 2017	All your examples have two dudes. I was talking about mixed genders. There's no point in rivalry between a man and a woman. That's probably why it's so rare. It's possible if both are children, but in adulthood I think it just won't work. As I said, there is just no point or at least I feel that way. __________________

2017-11-05, 01:35	Link #28
Sackett Cross Game - I need more Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: I've moved around the American West. I've lived in Oregon, Washington, Utah, and Oklahoma Age: 44	Well, this isn't exactly an anime/manga issue. This is a story issue. As the old saying goes, stories should end with either a wedding or a funeral. Basically happy stories are about the MC becoming a full human and complete person - that usually includes romantic completion - so it's natural that your male MC and female MC are going to become lovers in a happy ending story. Tragedies are where the hero is flawed, and their hubris and other flaws inevitably doom them to destruction - which is finalized when they die and the world rejoices that the evil has perished. Because of this usually the tragedy is written so that the MC alienates all his friends and drives away everyone that might help him. Usually with the penultimate act before his death being the rejection of the love of the female MC. (Thus showing how utterly nonredeemable he is). Thus it's not a natural story line for the male MC and female MC to end as enemies. You could have a story where they start as rivals and then develop a romance - that variation is not uncommon at all. The most natural version would probably be a tragedy where the male and female MC are friends or even lovers and then become enemies because one of them becomes evil. Probably the male MC becomes evil and the female MC ends up having to lead the resistance that ends with killing him. I can't help but feel I've read a story with that plot line before, but I can't think of it. Still, it's going to be rare, because most tragedies are told from the perspective of the villain, not both the villain and heroine simultaneously. You could do a parallel story where there are rival pairings with two male MC and two female MC, and they pair off and thus are rivals with each other. And I suppose that technically you could have the female MC stay the "friendly rival" character and have some secondary female character as the romance interest - but then why isn't she the main female character? Story structure just naturally tends to be against the type of story you are asking for. __________________ Cross Game - A Story of Love, Life, Death - and Baseball. What more could you want?

2017-12-08, 21:42	Link #33
Mad Pierrot Corrupted fool Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: I'm everywhere Age: 33	Citing an example there was Jojo Part 2 and Spoiler for prepare: Jojo was thinking about his mother... Still, not every series so far has had the leads becoming lovers like Spoiler for spoilers: D.Gray-man, Gintama, Psycho-Pass, Devil Survivor 2, Persona 3 and 4, Naruto, all Saint Seiya series, Black Cat, every Yugioh, Samurai Flamenco, Samurai Champloo,

2017-12-11, 16:36	Link #35
Mad Pierrot Corrupted fool Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: I'm everywhere Age: 33	Also, Pokemon Adventure Ruby and Shapphire..... Spoiler for spoiler: they start as rivals and end falling in love

2017-12-11, 15:47	Link #34
rladls2121 Senior Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: California(Current).	What about Pocket Monsters Advanced Generation? Although Haruka is not really the main character, she has like two male rivals, though i kind of forgot how they were. Rivalries from Pokemon Diamond and Pearl i like this one the most. Something like this, and make one of them a female character without being a potential lover of course.