Kanon - 2006 - Episode 12 Discussion / Poll

[Kinny Riddle]

Originally Posted by orion

She has a history of property destruction. She's the school outcast. She took out at least 3 tables. She put a hole in an expensive floor that's carpeted. She brought a weapon onto campus and used it. Now, they have witnesses. Before, they didn't.

No one is going to admit that some "invisible" creature knocked Sayuri to the wall besides Yuichi.

Perhaps I'm speaking with some hindsight after playing Mai's pathway, so please bear with me.

While the teachers would buy into Kuze's biased accusations, you overestimate the gullibility of the students. As long as the facts are laid out (that Mai only entered the fray with her sword after the ruckus caused by the invisible demon), they will listen, to some extent. So look forward to Yuuichi and Sayuri working on that (and a plausible cover story to boot).

You're suppose to take these fights outside so as not to harm anyone else or other property.

She's goin' down.

Is she 18 yet? Maybe, they can charge her as an adult.

I don't think Mai's the sort to care about what people think of her. She really needs Yuuichi and Sayuri to look after her.

In Japan, most people begin their 3rd year of high school at 17. As Kanon takes place in January 1999, the beginning of the third and last semester, Mai would be turning 18 soon, yet her birthday is on January 29th, and if you consider the game canon, the ball takes place on January 20th, so technically, the school could only expel her at best, and Mai can concentrate on being a demon-hunter, full time.

[martino]

Originally Posted by orion

Because it's fun.

I'm going to that thread to see what other series I like is in it.

Edit: Here's an update.

lol

We should force everyone to keep a graph like that.

[Vexx]

Per Mai's dilemma here, I've actually forgotten how she got out of this fix in the game or the TOEI version (okay, I have a glimmering remember - but I don't remember how they *finally* resolved the temporary solution) ... so this'll be fun for me to watch the story play out.

[myopius]

Nice episode. I loved the animation. Anyway I really enjoy Ayu's character so I enjoy episodes with her. Really terrible ending. I kinda felt terrible watching it, I mean, like the sense that everything went wrong. Ending it with that guy's declaration, with no music in the background that I can recall, just really drove the reality of the situation in. I definitely look forward to the next episode.

[qwerty4]

brilliant episode! Well put together. Funny. Action scenes and flashbacks.
i loved seeing mai embarassed. Her 'chop' is hilarious! And the animation is amazing. KyoAni are my fav animators. There stuff is just so....nice

[Sinestra]

Mai looked so beautiful in that dress it was great she still ate like a horse. But it was great that she learned to dance so quickly. I so need an avatar of that

[DanielSong39]

Originally Posted by orion

Because it's fun.

I'm going to that thread to see what other series I like is in it.

Edit: Here's an update.

Thanks for keeping track; it's interesting to note the patterns in the ratings... it looks like a nice sine wave. I predict that the ratings will nosedive in the next two episodes as Mai's arc comes to a close, and pick up again with Shiori's arc. The question is, will it end on a high note? Keeping my fingers crossed.

I suppose "disappointed" is the best word to describe how I feel about this series; I had very high expectations of this series, and so far it just hasn't grabbed me. If I felt this show truly sucked, then I wouldn't bother to watch - the reason I haven't dropped it is because I still have hopes that KyoAni will pull it back together and produce something that I can enjoy watching. And let's be perfectly fair; I actually thought 5 out of the 12 episodes were halfway decent and only 5 episodes received a rating of "3" or lower.

As I said from the start, I'm going to give this show the same chance I gave D.C. ~ Da Capo. That show went from being below average in my book to very good in the last 11 episodes. It looks like Kanon has a steeper hill to climb, but who knows? I rather enjoy surprises, and it would be great if Kanon 2006 could provide one.

[Meophist]

DanielSong39, I'm rather impressed that you're still sticking to this. But then again, I tend to jump ship early and often. I missed out on a lot of good shows because of that, but there are some things that I don't want to re-experience. I really hope you'll be able to enjoy the show soon, but I'm not going to force anything on you.

[Ascaloth]

DanielSong39, let me reveal what you once left as a comment on Hinano's blog, during Episode 10;

Originally Posted by DanielSong39

Watching Kanon is kind of like watching NASCAR…

You don’t watch it for the racing; you watch it for the wrecks.

Episode 10 was akin to the “big one” at Talledega.

The site where DanielSong39 left this comment.


Pal......who are you trying to fool with your "I have high expectations, I'm disappointed, but I'll continue watching because I hope it'll get better" spiel? You don't actually want Kanon to get better, you want it to continue being "bad" according to your lights, so you can post more of your dribble here.

You have credibility issues, man.

[kingdom_elladrel]

This guy should do himself a great favor and stop watching Kanon if he wants to save himself from further humiliation. Seriously, why the hell is someone watching an anime they know they're not gonna like?

[Vexx]

Even I know when to drop a show that I'm not having fun with (*cough* Crescent Love *cough*). I could understand if it were like ep 21 out of 24 and then I'm stuck for the finish (*cough* Shuffle! *cough*).

My biggest quandaries this season are Negima!? and YNSH.
The first is great fun to watch, art is interesting, much funny .... but it isn't even reaching its own potential as if the director is floundering.
The second has me pulling my hair out because now I've seen the manga after saying... "I sense a really good show that could be here but they don't actually seem to be getting anywhere and I really doubt the lead female spends 90% of her time in chibi form (note: she doesn't in the manga).

Here we are with Kanon and the only thing I can venture is that I guess I see nuance and complexity where some don't. The Mai ball episode felt a bit rushed and thats the worst I'll say about it.

[qwerty4]

that guy is a bit of a loser isn't he? if u don't think an anime is all that great then don't watch it! And even if you don't like it you don't have to tell everyone on a FAN forum

[Vexx]

I don't object to someone criticizing a piece of entertainment if they can substantiate or provide reasoning for their position. Even if its simply "this does not work for me". What I see too often in many threads is unsupported opinion asserted as fact (be it positive or negative).

In Daniel's last post he asserts that the story is falling apart and is avidly waiting for KyoAni to pull it back together... but I don't see any reasons for that belief or the qualifier that it is personal opinion. Nor is it clear what would constitute a recovery.
He states he had high expectations for the series... but doesn't lay out what those expectations were. If you review his post history in the Kanon threads, it gets a little difficult not to state thinking "troll, subtle but troll" (perhaps some Nayuki-fanism?). To use the NASCAR analogy he used elsewhere, its almost like he's trying to find wrecks where there really weren't any (maybe a few bumps).

However, my only real beef to date with his posts is the confusion of opinion as asserted fact and the relative paucity of reasoning for that. As far as I've been able to glean -- he seems to think the two volume manga version is somehow superior to either the game material, the TOEI material, or what Kanon is giving us. If he'd like to clarify, I'd be happy to read that clarification. I did go and read the manga but found it rather unsatisfying simply because Yuuichi couldn't even take a leak without Nayuki right there so he never really had the chance to take any relations a step further. The overall feel to the manga was just rather shallow harem melodrama and rather cute compared to the game/TOEI/Kanon material, in my opinion. I just didn't feel like it addressed the game source material well - though on its own it was a fun read.

So far, most viewers at least give KyoAni high marks for integrating the game material as a dramatic presentation --- whatever they think of the game material.

[Devil Doll]

I'm late on this bandwagon but Kanon 2006 made me return to this great forum after a long time (pre-boardcrash, Suzuka airing...). And wow, what an enthusiastic rating for that show here! I wish I could feel the same about this series...

Having Kanon 2002 in my top 10 already I sure notice the many improvements: Better art and animation, some very good dialogues, more time for fleshing out the characters. So why is it that I consider K2 and K6 about equal in their overall rating so far?

The easiest way to describe it might be: This remake is too sequential, it isn't a "Kanon" any more. Consequently, episode 12 was one of the best so far, having many girls' stories progress at the same time. (No need to repeat all the positive statements about Mai and moe, I join this chorus of course. I'm a sucker for Sayuri airtime, for example.)
Earlier in this series there was so much time wasted for Makoto's story (although she became a lovable being at last, very unlike K2)... and wasn't it awfully convenient how Mai told Yuuichi "I'm fine for the time being, please take care of the Makoto sub-plot first"? Yuuichi fighting simultaneously on all fronts day and night as in K2 was a lot more thrilling - so hopefully the best part of K6 has just begun.

All in all, K6 tries to appear more serious than K2 - which makes sense considering the story we're about to see. Most notably Yuuichi is a completely different character this time. In K2 he was pissed about Nayuki ruining his potential chances of getting a girlfriend in an early episode; in K6 he didn't even think of any such thing so far. K2 began as a harem scenario of a kind; K6 is Yuuichi plus a large number of younger sisters (including his senpais Sayuri and Mai). So far, it's just different; Yuuichi's "line of the week" from K2 can't be in K6 this way, so be it.
What's also different is Nayuki (my favourite K2 character). She may have been a laughing stock at times in K2 as well, but she had an agenda and acted accordingly. So far I can't see her acting in character during most of K6, and if the ending will be the same for both series (as indicated by the OP sequence) this will cause plausibility problems (although the chibi part of episode 12 finally began to fix that).

Getting the more serious version this time, with Yuuichi looking & acting so much more maturely, I became more sensitive to logical flaws in the story line while I was more forgiving in K2. Mai's demons being invisible will cause problems if the next episodes follow the K2 development. Mai knowing about Makoto would make sense if... well, that's a spoiler. Yuuichi completely ignoring the number of medications Shiori carries along was out of (his new!) character. Ayu's phone call (was that last episode?) was horribly delivered (that particular scene was so much better in K2). Yuuichi and Ayu watching a movie together was at a much more plausible position of K2 than it was in K6. Two more problems about Ayu... but these are spoilers again. And do we have enough airtime to fill it with running gags like Akiko's mysterious jam and boringly repetitive pranks of Makoto? I also heard the word kiseki too often already.
I will admit that certain things are done better in K6, such as the taiyaki incidents. I like Yuuichi Bond-sama protecting Mai against Kuze, and neither Yuuichi nor Mai were supposed to know how to dance a waltz.

I still like this series very much. But I don't think it will be able to fulfill my expectations any more (too much filler during the Makoto arc). It might make a top 10 rank, but I'm not even sure it will beat K2. Remember Mai's first appearance in K2? That was stunning. They wasted such effects in K6. K2 had the real fire, K6 - while be the more professional work for sure - is only glowing from time to time. With twice as many episodes I ask for more story (most notably about Sayuri) than K2 had.

Having said that, I give episode 12 a 9/10 (one point off for the invisible demons and the nonetheless blatant innocence of Mai for the events which surely won't save her from being called over the coals for all that). Now I'll go and watch episode 13... it's the Mai arc after all, so more goodness to come.

[Vexx]

As much as I'm enjoying K6, I will acquiesce that certain aspects of K2 still win and its unfortunate they couldn't mix and match better. I find it interesting you think K6 is more sequential than K2. I think otherwise but perhaps I should go back and watch it again. I also try to keep in mind that I'm already spoiled by K2 so events portrayed in K6 simply won't have the same impact (like the phone call or the "what have I lost?" sequence).

Apparently, in Japan, the fans of Kanon are consigning the TOEI version to the dustbin ("That we do not speak of") .... that's kind of unfortunate as it did have its good points (certainly it made an impact on me as I was still relatively new to modern anime at that point).

In the end, I'll probably be keeping both series .... as its unlikely they'll be seeing R1 land (unless the Haruhi KyoAni phenom changes the roadmap for romance comedy-drama in the US).

[New/Old]

Originally Posted by Devil Doll

I'm late on this bandwagon but Kanon 2006 made me return to this great forum after a long time (pre-boardcrash, Suzuka airing...). And wow, what an enthusiastic rating for that show here! I wish I could feel the same about this series...

Having Kanon 2002 in my top 10 already I sure notice the many improvements: Better art and animation, some very good dialogues, more time for fleshing out the characters. So why is it that I consider K2 and K6 about equal in their overall rating so far?

The easiest way to describe it might be: This remake is too sequential, it isn't a "Kanon" any more. Consequently, episode 12 was one of the best so far, having many girls' stories progress at the same time. (No need to repeat all the positive statements about Mai and moe, I join this chorus of course. I'm a sucker for Sayuri airtime, for example.)
Earlier in this series there was so much time wasted for Makoto's story (although she became a lovable being at last, very unlike K2)... and wasn't it awfully convenient how Mai told Yuuichi "I'm fine for the time being, please take care of the Makoto sub-plot first"? Yuuichi fighting simultaneously on all fronts day and night as in K2 was a lot more thrilling - so hopefully the best part of K6 has just begun.

All in all, K6 tries to appear more serious than K2 - which makes sense considering the story we're about to see. Most notably Yuuichi is a completely different character this time. In K2 he was pissed about Nayuki ruining his potential chances of getting a girlfriend in an early episode; in K6 he didn't even think of any such thing so far. K2 began as a harem scenario of a kind; K6 is Yuuichi plus a large number of younger sisters (including his senpais Sayuri and Mai). So far, it's just different; Yuuichi's "line of the week" from K2 can't be in K6 this way, so be it.
What's also different is Nayuki (my favourite K2 character). She may have been a laughing stock at times in K2 as well, but she had an agenda and acted accordingly. So far I can't see her acting in character during most of K6, and if the ending will be the same for both series (as indicated by the OP sequence) this will cause plausibility problems (although the chibi part of episode 12 finally began to fix that).

Getting the more serious version this time, with Yuuichi looking & acting so much more maturely, I became more sensitive to logical flaws in the story line while I was more forgiving in K2. Mai's demons being invisible will cause problems if the next episodes follow the K2 development. Mai knowing about Makoto would make sense if... well, that's a spoiler. Yuuichi completely ignoring the number of medications Shiori carries along was out of (his new!) character. Ayu's phone call (was that last episode?) was horribly delivered (that particular scene was so much better in K2). Yuuichi and Ayu watching a movie together was at a much more plausible position of K2 than it was in K6. Two more problems about Ayu... but these are spoilers again. And do we have enough airtime to fill it with running gags like Akiko's mysterious jam and boringly repetitive pranks of Makoto? I also heard the word kiseki too often already.
I will admit that certain things are done better in K6, such as the taiyaki incidents. I like Yuuichi Bond-sama protecting Mai against Kuze, and neither Yuuichi nor Mai were supposed to know how to dance a waltz.

I still like this series very much. But I don't think it will be able to fulfill my expectations any more (too much filler during the Makoto arc). It might make a top 10 rank, but I'm not even sure it will beat K2. Remember Mai's first appearance in K2? That was stunning. They wasted such effects in K6. K2 had the real fire, K6 - while be the more professional work for sure - is only glowing from time to time. With twice as many episodes I ask for more story (most notably about Sayuri) than K2 had.

Having said that, I give episode 12 a 9/10 (one point off for the invisible demons and the nonetheless blatant innocence of Mai for the events which surely won't save her from being called over the coals for all that). Now I'll go and watch episode 13... it's the Mai arc after all, so more goodness to come.

Hmm-hmm. Good opinions. However, one must remember that both are remakes. From what I've read, you are following the Toei series events. At least I think so... Toei Kanon was a good anime in of itself, but Kyoani's Kanon is going for trying to cling closely to the original Kanon material. I think it's difficult to guess the exact details that will come down the stretch of the stories by only looking at what Toei Kanon did. I think it's more fair to compare the two remakes with the original material from the original Kanon PC game.

Let's just say that things are presented the way they are for a reason (like the invisible demons for example), be they for subtle foreshadowing or comedy moments or a good detail that will make sense in the end or etc. Kiseki (miracles translated) is repeated because it is the basis of Kanon. Miracles and promises. It's a suble way to get it into the viewer's head. I think it's one of those look back on after the series has ended kind of thing.

I'm sorry to hear you didn't enjoy Makoto though.... Ah well.

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by Devil Doll

The easiest way to describe it might be: This remake is too sequential, it isn't a "Kanon" any more.

That's an interesting one. How exactly does this make it not "Kanon"?
On the contrary, I think the 2k2 version is the one that's not Kanon because they break down each individual character's story into sections without tying it all together.

Consequently, episode 12 was one of the best so far, having many girls' stories progress at the same time. (No need to repeat all the positive statements about Mai and moe, I join this chorus of course. I'm a sucker for Sayuri airtime, for example.)

This had always been the case for 2k6. 2k2 is the one that does things in sequential as Yuuichi focuses solely on one girl at a time.

Earlier in this series there was so much time wasted for Makoto's story (although she became a lovable being at last, very unlike K2)... and wasn't it awfully convenient how Mai told Yuuichi "I'm fine for the time being, please take care of the Makoto sub-plot first"?

That's not convenient, it's call foreshadowing. And this is the bits where the points advances both the character of Mai and Makoto, you're just not looking at it on the broader scale IMO and taking it for granted. Looking back at it again with hindersight, Mai (whom was fighting invisible monsters which nobody, not even Yuuichi, can see) tells Yuuichi to take care of Makoto, at that point in time Yuuichi has absolutely no reason to believe anything that Mai says or does. But now that Yuuichi knows that Mai is telling the truth due to the Makoto incident, he sincerely believes her and her action, it breaks away from a lot of the standard harem formulas. And now we even get more hints as Mai drops some for Ayu. These not-so-subtle hints cleverly links the characters together as well as gives them depth which the 2k2 version never did.

Yuuichi fighting simultaneously on all fronts day and night as in K2 was a lot more thrilling - so hopefully the best part of K6 has just begun.

Actually that's really really poor alternation in the part of the 2k2 version, same with their handling of Makoto's story, they went for quick thrills rather than sticking to the theme of the Kanon game. Also they never managed to explain the reason for Mai's fighting. 2k6 had blown that away completely with lots of hints being dropped already. (eg, Mai's "friend from long time ago", her hint with regards to Ayu)

Most notably Yuuichi is a completely different character this time. In K2 he was pissed about Nayuki ruining his potential chances of getting a girlfriend in an early episode; in K6 he didn't even think of any such thing so far. K2 began as a harem scenario of a kind; K6 is Yuuichi plus a large number of younger sisters (including his senpais Sayuri and Mai). So far, it's just different; Yuuichi's "line of the week" from K2 can't be in K6 this way, so be it.

And that's the way it ought to be - I've been saying it for a long time, the original material (the game) wasn't harem in nature. 2k6 Yuuichi is merely acting in character for which he is suppose to be.

What's also different is Nayuki (my favourite K2 character). She may have been a laughing stock at times in K2 as well, but she had an agenda and acted accordingly. So far I can't see her acting in character during most of K6, and if the ending will be the same for both series (as indicated by the OP sequence) this will cause plausibility problems (although the chibi part of episode 12 finally began to fix that).

Actually, Nayuki was like that in the game, there *is* a reason why she's acting airheaded, just like all the other girls in the story has a reason for acting *weird*. The 2k2 version (as well as the manga) took those away and changed her role to one of being Yuuichi's supporter, which she is not. Nayuki is as much as the person "waiting in fantasy" as the other girls.

Mai's demons being invisible will cause problems if the next episodes follow the K2 development. Mai knowing about Makoto would make sense if... well, that's a spoiler.

Don't worry about it as it won't because it is going according to how the game unfolds. It was the 2k2 version which made a very generous alternation to Mai's story and was forced into that sort of ending.

Yuuichi completely ignoring the number of medications Shiori carries along was out of (his new!) character.

How so?

Ayu's phone call (was that last episode?) was horribly delivered (that particular scene was so much better in K2).

Again, how?

I also heard the word kiseki too often already.

Because, you know, that's the *theme* of the show?

K2 had the real fire, K6 - while be the more professional work for sure - is only glowing from time to time.

I call the opposite, 2k2 went for quick flare and it burns out without leaving the right impression. 2k6 is a constantly glowing light which lets you admire its beauty and craftsmanship or every carefully placed decoration.

With twice as many episodes I ask for more story (most notably about Sayuri) than K2 had.

Ahhh now I see what your problem is. You're looking for "stories". Then I can say you're looking for the wrong things. Kanon is about the characters, not plot advancement. I suggest you rewatch the fillers and see how they contribute to the overall characterization and depth of the characters in questions.

Having said that, I give episode 12 a 9/10 (one point off for the invisible demons and the nonetheless blatant innocence of Mai for the events which surely won't save her from being called over the coals for all that).

The invisible monsters is *crucial* for the story and character of Mai, don't you think the reason why Mai is such an outcast to everyone else is precisely because she "sees things" which no one else can see? This is absolutely consistant to what Mai herself says "because nobody will believe me". And if it wasn't for the chance meeting between Sayuri and Yuuichi in seeing what the *real* Mai is which lead them to believe in Mai's words, it actually takes away from the bond between the 3. I think you're really jumping the gun here by only taking the 2k2 version's botched delivery of Mai's story as canon while not looking at why the 2k6 did it they way it is.

[New/Old]

It seems like I may have to stop being so vague and softly pointing a person toward my opinion. You hit it on the nail (at least in my humble opinion) again, houkoholic...

[Meophist]

Watching this makes me crave for some Japanese ice cream…

[White Manju Bun]

Originally Posted by Itachi-chan

Talking about that, I remembered of this scene from episode 10. He didn't seem scared there...

I totally thought of that too since way back in the beginning he was on the roof about to go look for the track until he fell

Wow nice epi, Mai and Yuuichi dancing was awesome but I think Mai going postal at the end after Sayuri was hurt was even better. How Mai zoned on Sayuri and then decided to fight the demon was done so nice.