AnimeSuki Forums

Endrance · 2010-11-05, 14:20

I think he would have seemed less cruel if it wasnt his wife and one that didnt know what they had become that being said i can see reason overtake emotion in this situation...whoever she might have been before hes seen what they become so how could he pass up an opportunity to find out ways to kill them

White Manju Bun · 2010-11-05, 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Endrance

I think he would have seemed less cruel if it wasnt his wife and one that didnt know what they had become that being said i can see reason overtake emotion in this situation...whoever she might have been before hes seen what they become so how could he pass up an opportunity to find out ways to kill them

But thats exactly why Kyouko was used. We all knew her. The scene wouldnt have had the impact it had if it had been a nobody. Situation would have had as deep an impact if Seishin had been strapped to that table. Its a brillant tool to use someone the audience knows and likes in that kind of setting.

I dont think he enjoyed it, he wasnt smiling, this wasnt Shion from Higurashi-esque. Basically he almost looked robotic in his movements, just comes off very cold considering Kyouko is who he's experimenting on. I state that it didnt matter who was on the table, whether her, Seishin, Natsuno, Toshio's own mother, he would have acted the exact same way. He's spent, he's at his wits end and needed to figure out how to save his village. I think Seishin might help him come back to reality whenever we see those two again, guessing not next week.

jorez · 2010-11-05, 15:12

Fantastic scene in episode 14. After 5 effing weeks... the preview finally becomes reality.

Does anyone have the lyrics for ED2 complete version? I swear if vampires did exists, the vocalist of BUCK-TICK would be the first vampire singer. His voice is from another fucking world.

ars89 · 2010-11-05, 15:25

what an ep, in the beginning i thought Toshio looked like hell, maybe from the loss of Kyouko, but it's probably from insomnia and not sleeping during the night because he wanted to see his wife rise, then you realize he has put his pain past him and doesn't care about the body in front of him as he tries his experiments, i am surprised that nobody came to check on her, maybe they thought that she would rise and bite into Toshio, Chizuru looked hot, i feel bad for that household because they're going to be dead, so the Ebuchi clinic and Ebuchi are weird, i wonder is he is shiki as well, i wonder is Yoshie is a human, because she didn't seem like the other shikis, unless she like Tatsumi, Megumi is badass, it was awesome when she beat up Masao, i thought i would never see that idiot again, i also wonder what was written in that letter from Seishin's father to Mr. Kirishiki

stadtkind · 2010-11-05, 15:26

The first sounds that came out of Kyoko's mouth were shocking for me. T_T And as the experiments went on I cried. T_T x 33457 I felt so bad for her, she had no idea what was going on and looked absolutely terrified. And if you remember when Masao woke up, they can't even speak at first. Imagine what it must have felt for her. Poor Kyoko.

I understand this was necessary of course... It might sound weird but for me the most cruel thing was taping her mouth.

By the way WTF was up with Chizuru's Lady Gaga outfit, complete with the Mickey Mouse glasses? What bizarre reference is that?

Hooves · 2010-11-05, 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Manju Bun

I dont think he enjoyed it, he wasnt smiling, this wasnt Shion from Higurashi-esque. Basically he almost looked robotic in his movements, just comes off very cold considering Kyouko is who he's experimenting on. I state that it didnt matter who was on the table, whether her, Seishin, Natsuno, Toshio's own mother, he would have acted the exact same way. He's spent, he's at his wits end and needed to figure out how to save his village. I think Seishin might help him come back to reality whenever we see those two again, guessing not next week.

Toshio atleast got "some" emotion back after looking at his wife's face before he stabbed her in the chest. It shows that he is not completely robotic, and in the state where nothing else matters but the death of vampires to him. But we will need the extra support of Seishin to help with this. But with the face he brought at the end, he will probably think that Toshio's method of trying to get rid of the vampires is going too far, and will probably try to stay away from him.

maplehurry · 2010-11-05, 16:52

lol, Klashikari wouldn't be able to defend that "it's not cruel" part if the anime didn't omit that something.

**Klashikari** · 2010-11-05, 17:03

Defend? Aside of that, it is simply how I and other people think about the experiment. And unfortunately, even after checking the manga version, I see nothing that would change my mind regarding that point. Is that even important to begin with? Not like it will change anything in the story if someone has their personal take different than others. So be my guest to think otherwise, but your provocation is rather futile.

maplehurry · 2010-11-05, 17:08

Well, if you are willing to admit this is just your personal opinion, then I have nothing to argue this with.

**Klashikari** · 2010-11-05, 17:11

Willing to admit? Except I never stated the "not cruel stuff" as facts (unlike the other discussion I had with Orion about Toshio's actions before), so it was plain opinion to begin with.

Ironically enough, I could very well pull one specific quote of that scene from the manga to use "fact", but that would be another controversial discussion (since it would involve again a lot of shades).

As an interesting matter, it may be also a semantic issue; I personally see cruelty with the following definition: deliberate infliction of pain or suffering.
Of course, it may be different depending of one's definition and/or mileage.

maplehurry · 2010-11-05, 17:33

Quote:

Willing to admit? Except I never stated the "not cruel stuff" as facts (unlike the other discussion I had with Orion about Toshio's actions before), so it was plain opinion to begin with.

There's no clear indicator from either way, so I just take a guess based on how "confident" they sound against others

Dreamchaser · 2010-11-05, 17:51

Another excellent episode even though it was quite disturbing and certainly nightmare fuel.

Spoiler for Episode 14:

It was nice to see the other Kirishiki's hunting and I can't wait to see more of Yoshie. Megumi was rocked this episode as usual. It was really nice to see her beating up what's-his-face. It was also quite amusing to see her waking up Kaori just to tell her that her father was dead. I imagine that the mother is next in line now just to scare their opposition. Shikis are clearly very good at psychological warfare.

On the note of the Ebuchi clinic, I don't know if this has been pointed out but the doctor attended the Kirishiki meeting so I assume that he's one of the higher-ups in the organisation and is also a shiki since he had to ask for permission to enter.

It was also interesting to get more info on the shiki organisation. We now know that there's junior and senior members with the Kirishiki's on top and the servants acting as mid-bosses. I would guess that the Kirishikis have noted Megumi's potential and are now grooming her to become one of the higher-ups since she has more liberty than the others we've seen and Yoshie didn't intervene when she beat up Masao. It was also quite scary and interesting to hear them point out that they organise teams who kidnap people from cities.

And the main discussion object in this episode, Toshio and Kyouko. I found Kyouko to be quite an interesting character and the cruel and utterly cold way Toshio went about this was deeply disturbing. It might have been easier to stand if he'd done this on some other shiki but to do it to his own wife. While I understand why people think it was legitimate considering it's a struggle for survival I have no sympathy for him. Rather I hope that his world will continue to collapse around him.

I'm really quite curious as to how Seishin will react to this. It would be quite interesting if he gave away this info to Sunako next time he meets her. I also imagine that this will be a turning point for Seishin. I also wonder what his father wrote to the Kirishiki family - might he have suggested a deal of sorts?

Kaoru Chujo · 2010-11-05, 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreamchaser

Spoiler for Episode 14:

Interesting ideas. Will Seishin go over to the shiki side? Could there be some kind of modus vivendi (so to speak) that leaves some human population living safely among the shiki? Or did Seishin's father convey a threat to the Kirishikis, based on the power of religious symbols?

LunaNeko · 2010-11-05, 20:10

To lighten up the mood, lol. Official Shiki gothic lolita outfits?
DO WANT!

http://www.laforet.ne.jp/harajuku/sp...iki/index.html

Kakkou · 2010-11-05, 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by LunaNeko

To lighten up the mood, lol. Official Shiki gothic lolita outfits?
DO WANT!

http://www.laforet.ne.jp/harajuku/sp...iki/index.html

Wow those are nice, really stylish. I was just about to think that it was a shame there wasn't any based on the guys and then I saw Natsuno there. I wouldn't mind wearing that, I like it.

karice67 · 2010-11-05, 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Manju Bun

He finally had a "patient" to experiment on. Sucks it was his wife.

Patient? More like a specimen or "sample" - he actually uses the latter term in the manga.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiroth

The best example of this would be the close up shot before Toshio hammered down the weapon into her heart. His eyes changed back to normal as he looked at Kyoko one last time. It could be possible to look at that scene as Toshio taking one last glimpse of what his wife has become, so he can look at at these events and tell himself that he did the right thing.

I don't know...he still looked very cold to me. It didn't help that in the shot just before that, his eyes were red like a Shiki's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanon

About whether or not he loved Kyouko, the manga made it rather clear. Unfortunately, it was cut out of the anime. I'll keep my mouth shut in case it's included in the next episode, but I very much doubt it will be.

Spoiler for preview:

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Manju Bun

Basically he almost looked robotic in his movements, just comes off very cold considering Kyouko is who he's experimenting on. I state that it didnt matter who was on the table, whether her, Seishin, Natsuno, Toshio's own mother, he would have acted the exact same way. He's spent, he's at his wits end and needed to figure out how to save his village.

Food for thought then: what if it'd had been Rit-chan on the table?

Hooves · 2010-11-05, 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

Interesting ideas. Will Seishin go over to the shiki side? Could there be some kind of modus vivendi (so to speak) that leaves some human population living safely among the shiki? Or did Seishin's father convey a threat to the Kirishikis, based on the power of religious symbols?

Not likely, once they finish the village's population, they will likely just move on to the city with their large numbers (well I think its large..) Seishin probably suspect the Kirishikis as well, hint the so called "letter of greeting" can be anything..

serenade_beta · 2010-11-05, 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by LunaNeko

To lighten up the mood, lol. Official Shiki gothic lolita outfits?
DO WANT!

http://www.laforet.ne.jp/harajuku/sp...iki/index.html

I too almost thought it was unfortunate there wasn't any ones made for guys until Natsuno finally appeared at the bottom.

Do want, indeed!
But costs way too much for a cosplay outfit... says a non-cosplayer = me. (´・ω・｀)

Leo_Otaku · 2010-11-05, 22:20

That was one epic episode 0_0 I couldn't believe he did that! Also a 0_o to what was up with Mrs. K's fan service XD

Quote:

Originally Posted by stadtkind

By the way WTF was up with Chizuru's Lady Gaga outfit, complete with the Mickey Mouse glasses? What bizarre reference is that?

I also second that XD

creb · 2010-11-05, 22:49

Keeping in mind everything is a plot device to keep the plot going in whatever direction the author is imagining, thus rendering any arguments about it impractical, I'll still wail about like a little girl and say Toshio was a fool.

There's nothing inherently evil about the Shiki (why are we not simply calling them vampires?

Is it because of the deluge of woman-meets-vampire-gets-into-hot-and-steamy-threeway-with-said-vampire-and-a-werewolf "novels" that permeate book racks across the world to the point that everyone is embarrassed to use the word "vampire"? :/), so he passed up a great opportunity to perhaps have a Shiki that was independent of the sadistic-fisted control of the K-family. One would think figuring out how to harm a Shiki would be relatively easy, especially as pop-culture knowledge of vampires exists. In fact, the only real piece of knowledge I feel was actually learned was that apparantly Shiki don't have supernatural strength.

Which means beating them should be ez-pz, though I'm sure there'll be all sorts of problems that arise in order to keep the story going.

I probably would have gone for having a cooperative test subject to attempt to search out a cure, like what one might think a doctor would want to try first prior to going nuclear, but I'm guessing the path the mangaka has chosen instead is to have Toshio descend down a road of inhumanity to the point where one has to ask, how is he any different from the Shiki (or, more accurately, the K-family indoctrinated Shiki)? I dunno. I guess we'll just have to see.

2010-11-05, 14:20	Link #1301
Endrance ~Rock ☆~ Graphic Designer Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: In The Farplane	I think he would have seemed less cruel if it wasnt his wife and one that didnt know what they had become that being said i can see reason overtake emotion in this situation...whoever she might have been before hes seen what they become so how could he pass up an opportunity to find out ways to kill them __________________ Endrance's Sigs

2010-11-05, 15:12	Link #1303
jorez but the kid is not my son Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Perú Age: 33	Fantastic scene in episode 14. After 5 effing weeks... the preview finally becomes reality. Does anyone have the lyrics for ED2 complete version? I swear if vampires did exists, the vocalist of BUCK-TICK would be the first vampire singer. His voice is from another fucking world. __________________

2010-11-05, 15:25	Link #1304
ars89 One-Eyed Dragon Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: NJ, USA	what an ep, in the beginning i thought Toshio looked like hell, maybe from the loss of Kyouko, but it's probably from insomnia and not sleeping during the night because he wanted to see his wife rise, then you realize he has put his pain past him and doesn't care about the body in front of him as he tries his experiments, i am surprised that nobody came to check on her, maybe they thought that she would rise and bite into Toshio, Chizuru looked hot, i feel bad for that household because they're going to be dead, so the Ebuchi clinic and Ebuchi are weird, i wonder is he is shiki as well, i wonder is Yoshie is a human, because she didn't seem like the other shikis, unless she like Tatsumi, Megumi is badass, it was awesome when she beat up Masao, i thought i would never see that idiot again, i also wonder what was written in that letter from Seishin's father to Mr. Kirishiki __________________ My Anime List

2010-11-05, 17:03	Link #1308
Klashikari 阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180 Graphic Designer Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Belgium, Brussels Age: 37	Defend? Aside of that, it is simply how I and other people think about the experiment. And unfortunately, even after checking the manga version, I see nothing that would change my mind regarding that point. Is that even important to begin with? Not like it will change anything in the story if someone has their personal take different than others. So be my guest to think otherwise, but your provocation is rather futile. __________________ [Sig art: Kagura Yuu, Nunukko, Maku Rako & Mishima Kurone] / [Twitter]

2010-11-05, 17:11	Link #1310
Klashikari 阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180 Graphic Designer Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Belgium, Brussels Age: 37	Willing to admit? Except I never stated the "not cruel stuff" as facts (unlike the other discussion I had with Orion about Toshio's actions before), so it was plain opinion to begin with. Ironically enough, I could very well pull one specific quote of that scene from the manga to use "fact", but that would be another controversial discussion (since it would involve again a lot of shades). As an interesting matter, it may be also a semantic issue; I personally see cruelty with the following definition: deliberate infliction of pain or suffering. Of course, it may be different depending of one's definition and/or mileage. __________________ [Sig art: Kagura Yuu, Nunukko, Maku Rako & Mishima Kurone] / [Twitter]

2010-11-05, 15:26	Link #1305
stadtkind Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: London UK	The first sounds that came out of Kyoko's mouth were shocking for me. T_T And as the experiments went on I cried. T_T x 33457 I felt so bad for her, she had no idea what was going on and looked absolutely terrified. And if you remember when Masao woke up, they can't even speak at first. Imagine what it must have felt for her. Poor Kyoko. I understand this was necessary of course... It might sound weird but for me the most cruel thing was taping her mouth. By the way WTF was up with Chizuru's Lady Gaga outfit, complete with the Mickey Mouse glasses? What bizarre reference is that?

2010-11-05, 16:52	Link #1307
maplehurry Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007	lol, Klashikari wouldn't be able to defend that "it's not cruel" part if the anime didn't omit that something.

2010-11-05, 17:08	Link #1309
maplehurry Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007	Well, if you are willing to admit this is just your personal opinion, then I have nothing to argue this with.

2010-11-05, 17:51	Link #1312
Dreamchaser Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sweden Age: 34	Another excellent episode even though it was quite disturbing and certainly nightmare fuel. Spoiler for Episode 14: It was nice to see the other Kirishiki's hunting and I can't wait to see more of Yoshie. Megumi was rocked this episode as usual. It was really nice to see her beating up what's-his-face. It was also quite amusing to see her waking up Kaori just to tell her that her father was dead. I imagine that the mother is next in line now just to scare their opposition. Shikis are clearly very good at psychological warfare. On the note of the Ebuchi clinic, I don't know if this has been pointed out but the doctor attended the Kirishiki meeting so I assume that he's one of the higher-ups in the organisation and is also a shiki since he had to ask for permission to enter. It was also interesting to get more info on the shiki organisation. We now know that there's junior and senior members with the Kirishiki's on top and the servants acting as mid-bosses. I would guess that the Kirishikis have noted Megumi's potential and are now grooming her to become one of the higher-ups since she has more liberty than the others we've seen and Yoshie didn't intervene when she beat up Masao. It was also quite scary and interesting to hear them point out that they organise teams who kidnap people from cities. And the main discussion object in this episode, Toshio and Kyouko. I found Kyouko to be quite an interesting character and the cruel and utterly cold way Toshio went about this was deeply disturbing. It might have been easier to stand if he'd done this on some other shiki but to do it to his own wife. While I understand why people think it was legitimate considering it's a struggle for survival I have no sympathy for him. Rather I hope that his world will continue to collapse around him. I'm really quite curious as to how Seishin will react to this. It would be quite interesting if he gave away this info to Sunako next time he meets her. I also imagine that this will be a turning point for Seishin. I also wonder what his father wrote to the Kirishiki family - might he have suggested a deal of sorts?

2010-11-05, 20:10	Link #1314
LunaNeko Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004	To lighten up the mood, lol. Official Shiki gothic lolita outfits? DO WANT! http://www.laforet.ne.jp/harajuku/sp...iki/index.html

2010-11-05, 22:49	Link #1320
creb Hiding Under Your Bed Join Date: May 2008	Keeping in mind everything is a plot device to keep the plot going in whatever direction the author is imagining, thus rendering any arguments about it impractical, I'll still wail about like a little girl and say Toshio was a fool. There's nothing inherently evil about the Shiki (why are we not simply calling them vampires? Is it because of the deluge of woman-meets-vampire-gets-into-hot-and-steamy-threeway-with-said-vampire-and-a-werewolf "novels" that permeate book racks across the world to the point that everyone is embarrassed to use the word "vampire"? :/), so he passed up a great opportunity to perhaps have a Shiki that was independent of the sadistic-fisted control of the K-family. One would think figuring out how to harm a Shiki would be relatively easy, especially as pop-culture knowledge of vampires exists. In fact, the only real piece of knowledge I feel was actually learned was that apparantly Shiki don't have supernatural strength. Which means beating them should be ez-pz, though I'm sure there'll be all sorts of problems that arise in order to keep the story going. I probably would have gone for having a cooperative test subject to attempt to search out a cure, like what one might think a doctor would want to try first prior to going nuclear, but I'm guessing the path the mangaka has chosen instead is to have Toshio descend down a road of inhumanity to the point where one has to ask, how is he any different from the Shiki (or, more accurately, the K-family indoctrinated Shiki)? I dunno. I guess we'll just have to see.