Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood - Episode 54 Discussion/Poll

[White Manju Bun]

Originally Posted by Gooral

It's funny that you see such a big difference between Mustang killing Lust and killing Envy but can't see that killing dozens of innocent people should change Roy drastically more than killing a mass murderer (even if it was out of revenge). Even more so since Roy was young when he killed Ishbalans. He didn't have problems then (and by that I mean he didn't become a psycho) why would he have later (when he was more experienced and have conscience partially immune to the sin of killing another being).

I find it funny that you don't. Military are trained to kill and not look back. Its their job, they may not enjoy it but under orders they will kill in necessary. It probably did change Roy a bit but not to the extreme that Envy killing Hughes did. One could say, the innocent people were nameless, faceless to many in the military and Im not saying just to Mustang but everyone who fought in the war. Hughes wasnt, he was his best friend. Thats why I see a difference. If you don't thats fine, but I do.

[lonewolf777]

On a separate note, for all the flack his sister gives him, Alex DID just save her twice. Maybe her vote of confidence (after always calling him a weak coward XD) for him during this episode during Sloth's onslaught is her appreciatory acknowledgment for that.

[Gooral]

Originally Posted by White Manju Bun

I find it funny that you don't. Military are trained to kill and not look back. Its their job, they may not enjoy it but under orders they will kill in necessary. It probably did change Roy a bit but not to the extreme that Envy killing Hughes did. One could say, the innocent people were nameless, faceless to many in the military and Im not saying just to Mustang but everyone who fought in the war. Hughes wasnt, he was his best friend. Thats why I see a difference. If you don't thats fine, but I do.

Yeah, screaming people, begging for mercy and s*itting their pants were nameless and faceless. They were air to Mustang. Uhuh. And killing someone that he actually loathed would change Roy... We couldn't disagree more.
I could maybe agree with what you've said if it was Riza we were talking about or artilleryman. They don't kill people that "directly" as for example someone killing with a knife or his bare hands. Roy however could see frightened faces of his victims, tears and other fluids flowing out of their bodies. He could hear their screams and smell grease in the air (at the same time he was "absorbing" some of the particles of human fat). He watched how his victims' skin and body dried up and carbonized. He didn't act like doctor Marcoh however but was calm and did his job. If he could do that then, he would most certainly not give a s*it about killing Envy. If anything he could feel satisfaction. All you can say is that "he would not be worthy to become a leader of his country" (not that I would agree with that) but saying he would change or it would affect him negatively is BS (saying Mustang would leave Riza and go after Winry would be as consistent with his character as him changing after killing Envy).

I don't see why you're comparing Roy killing innocent people to Envy killing Hughes. The question is what would Roy feel and be like after killing Envy? In addition Roy didn't change after Hughes' death. He was the same Roy we knew earlier. He was different than usual only when he faced homunculi. Also I would say that killing because of anger is more human than killing with a cold blood just because someone was ordered to. Human vs. killing machine/human weapon.
People Mustang was killing were only defending themselves from aggressors (and Amestrians were aggressors, they've started the war and they wanted to wipe out peaceful nation). It wasn't necessary to kill them! Well, it would be a different matter if Ishbalans killed since they were only trying to save lives of their families and themselves and their homes. I can see them not having nightmares because of it. But Amestrians ?! By your logic assassins can also be justified. As long as they're killing only for money and don't enjoy it, it's all good. After all Mustang didn't protect his country, he was attacking another country. And he did that for money and because it was necessary for his ambition. He could desert after all. He could change sides. He could insist that he can't do alchemy any more (or cut his hands off).

Spoiler for off-topic, dangerous discussion:

And you obviously know nothing about war (notice: I'm not saying I do). What you know is what you've heard from someone or read about. And if you're American you probably know of it from America's perspective. The problem is America was often an aggressor (regardless of reasons).
I'm from Poland and we (by we I mean my compatriots that fought in the war) were often defending from aggressors. Maybe that's why we have such completely different views on this matter. I'm identifying with Ishbalan's whereas you with Amestrians. But to me if an aggressor kills and feels nothing about it or is disturbed "just a bit" it means he's a psychopath (or a Volcan/android). If someone is defending than it's entirely different matter. For lack of better examples watch "In the valley of Elah". You will see there that killing changes people drastically. Some of them can remain themselves however, but some of them can't. Roy obviously could remain himself and didn't kill for sport.

[White Manju Bun]

Sigh, really bolding and increasing font size does not make your arguments any more forceful to me, sorry. We disagree thats fine, I never came into this debate trying to change your mind, though youre trying to change everyone elses with every post you make. Again we all have our own versions of what could have possible happened but didnt since Arakawa never let it. Your basing it off how you would have reacted to the given situation.

Roy didnt change after Hughes death? So all the rage we just saw in 53 and 54 just happened? Sorry if Roy hadnt change he wouldnt have put Envys killing as his top priority telling both Hawkeye and Ed to leave it to him. He didnt want anyones help killing Envy he wanted to it himself. That revenge.

Again you're obviously not gonna change your opinion which is fine but dont underline what everyone else is saying, ok.

[Gooral]

Originally Posted by White Manju Bun

(...)
Roy didnt change after Hughes death? So all the rage we just saw in 53 and 54 just happened? Sorry if Roy hadnt change he wouldnt have put Envys killing as his top priority telling both Hawkeye and Ed to leave it to him. He didnt want anyones help killing Envy he wanted to it himself. That revenge. (...)

Eh... And you're against bolding? I've specifically stated that he acted differently than usual only when facing homunculi. But it's understandable, under strong emotions people act differently than usual but it's normal. Mustang felt anger before Hughes was killed you know.
He perfectly knew what he was doing and wasn't blinded by revenge. If he were he would take Riza down (since she stood in his way) and then killed Envy. If he were, he wouldn't try to talk with Ed but kill Envy immediately risking that Ed would be burned too (although with his level of control he probably wouldn't harm him unless he was really blinded by rage and used full power). Why would he comply to Riza's insubordination when he had all rights to kill Envy?

As for my bolding/underlining, it allows to know the most important contents of my post without reading the whole thing. I wouldn't use it if it wasn't necessary and people actually read with comprehension.

(...) Your basing it off how you would have reacted to the given situation. (...)

Yeah, yeah, ignore my arguments, whatever.

[Grey]

Originally Posted by Gooral

Yeah, screaming people, begging for mercy and s*itting their pants were nameless and faceless. They were air to Mustang. Uhuh. And killing someone that he actually loathed would change Roy... We couldn't disagree more.
I could maybe agree with what you've said if it was Riza we were talking about or artilleryman. They don't kill people that "directly" as for example someone killing with a knife or his bare hands. Roy however could see frightened faces of his victims, tears and other fluids flowing out of their bodies. He could hear their screams and smell grease in the air (at the same time he was "absorbing" some of the particles of human fat). He watched how his victims' skin and body dried up and carbonized. He didn't act like doctor Marcoh however but was calm and did his job.

I'd say Mustang's role was basically artillery--he'd create huge explosions from a distance to take down tough pockets of resistance and such. Though it's true that he'd also come in with the other soldiers afterwards to finish off whoever was only half-dead. He wasn't really "calm" about it though--his words and face indicate he was perturbed. And we never actually see him taking out civilians (though he may have).

Originally Posted by Gooral

People Mustang was killing were only defending themselves from aggressors (and Amestrians were aggressors, they've started the war and they wanted to wipe out peaceful nation). It wasn't necessary to kill them! Well, it would be a different matter if Ishbalans killed since they were only trying to save lives of their families and themselves and their homes.
(snip)
After all Mustang didn't protect his country, he was attacking another country. And he did that for money and because it was necessary for his ambition. He could desert after all. He could change sides. He could insist that he can't do alchemy any more (or cut his hands off).

Not exactly. It's true that the homunculi and top brass incited the war--but that was in secret. As far as Amestrians knew, Amestris wasn't engaging in a war of aggression--it was trying to put down a rebellion and end a seven-year-long civil war. Even Scar called it a civil war, even though he had no love for the rest of Amestris.
So when Mustang was sent in because of Bradley's annihilation order...he was putting an end a seven-year-long war (through questionably extreme methods). If you just call it "a war of aggression upon innocents and people defending themselves", that's not really how Amestrians would see it. So the way you paint Mustang's motivations is off, because the situation you paint is off.

[White Manju Bun]

Originally Posted by Gooral

Yeah, yeah, ignore my arguments, whatever.

That truly made me LOL apparently youve totally missed my point but whatever, this was interesting to say the least. Its always fun when people dont agree on what they see.

[lonewolf777]

Originally Posted by Grey

I'd say Mustang's role was basically artillery--he'd create huge explosions from a distance to take down tough pockets of resistance and such. Though it's true that he'd also come in with the other soldiers afterwards to finish off whoever was only half-dead. He wasn't really "calm" about it though--his words and face indicate he was perturbed. And we never actually see him taking out civilians (though he may have).

The way I see it, they were all civilians. They didn't start the war, they didn't have weapons; they didn't even have an army. Ishval wasn't a separate nation, they were a minority group within Amestris, so I don't see how they can be classified as anything other than civilians. Even though there were some amongst them who could fight, I don't even count them as combatants, but as volunteers who were made into a front line.

Originally Posted by Grey

Not exactly. It's true that the homunculi and top brass incited the war--but that was in secret. As far as Amestrians knew, Amestris wasn't engaging in a war of aggression--it was trying to put down a rebellion and end a seven-year-long civil war. Even Scar called it a civil war, even though he had no love for the rest of Amestris.
So when Mustang was sent in because of Bradley's annihilation order...he was putting an end a seven-year-long war (through questionably extreme methods). If you just call it "a war of aggression upon innocents and people defending themselves", that's not really how Amestrians would see it. So the way you paint Mustang's motivations is off, because the situation you paint is off.

If that's the case, why would he feel guilt? He knew what he was doing was wrong.

[Maxtro]

Great episode.

The Alex and Sloth boxing match had me cracking up with the choice of music. It reminded me of some old black and white boxing movie.

[GaimeGuy]

Grey:

In the manga, we do see civilians get slaughtered. We also see Roy approach a wounded ishbalan slunken against a wall, who mustang approaches and asks if he has any last words, to which the ishbalan replies "I curse you," before mustang ends his life.

IIRC, the two soldiers who amassed the highest body counts in Ishval were Mustang and Kimblee. By Amestris, Mustang is known as a hero, a man who valiantly defended his country in battle on the front lines (not from afar, but rather at the front of the amestris force), and ensured the survival of I believe every member of his entire unit. To Ishval, Mustang is the opposite, a man who viciously slaughtered their people indiscriminately while also preventing their efforts to uprise against an oppressive regime from having any impact. He is a destroyer, a man whose combat prowess caused countless Ishvalans to, despite all efforts (or no efforts for those who did not fight), die in vain.

(PS, you may have heard this already, but the guys who blew up Bradley's train and assisted Mustang against the squad that attacked him and Mrs. Bradley back in Central are the guys from his unit, who were cut out of the anime's ishval coverage)

[zebra]

Finally watched 53 & 54! I still have goosebumps. I kind of feel bummed. I already gave the episodes prior a 10, but this was definetly even more epic.

THAT'S how flashback should be used! I got watery eyes with the Hughes ones. Also awesome to finally see the 'burn my back' scene after all. I still remember that when the flashback episode aired, someone said they might put on later and that the best place would be .. right here in 54. Whoever you are .. you were right!
And it fit great in the context, too. It reminded the audience nicely of Roy's and Riza's backstory, adding to the drama later.
I also really liked the voiceover of past lines when Envy realizes that Ed is right and he is envious of the punny humans.

It's hard to say what impressed me the most. Envy's VA did an awesome performance, I was amazed at the range in 53 and his suffering now made me really sad. His dying scene was a little too drawn out imo (when he's already crawling on the floor and attemps to get his stone out; not that before), but I found it more tragic than in the manga.

And then of course ROY. Goddamit .. Roy! <_< The voice, the flames, the wrath .. just remembering the goosebumbs return. Holy cow!

The scenes were so wonderfully adapted .. I'm just happy that they topped my prospects.

And of course I was shouting "Hell yeah!" when Izumi finally stepped into the scene!

Looking forward to the rest of the Sloth fight!

On another note .. I was surprised that they used Envy disguised as the Colonel as the cliffhangar of the last episode. But they pulled that off really well and Hawkeye fooling Envy made me laugh like in the manga~

[CuXe]

So finally, Envy died a shameful death, best suited for the most bastardized excuse for a homonculi there ever was. I didn't like the fact that they turned him into a cute chibi cause it doesn't matter how much of a bastard a character may be, watching a chibi die is not fun but still, I don't feel sorry for him. Good riddance!

I can't tell you how many times I rewound the tape (yeah I still live in the 80s lol) to watch Roy torching Envy.

On the plus side, Alex got his dislocated shoulder back in place and a truly HOT MILF just showed up! OMG, thats one hell of a woman I tell ya!

All in all, a hell of an episode!

[Guido]

Both the music and the drama development made of this episode absolutely flawless, IMO.

It made me sob to the edge of making me cry at two scenes:

Spoiler:

1. Envy reduced to its embryo-maggot form after Mustang incinerated to death it's Homunculus body, and then mercilessly squashed by Mustang's foot for its seemingly haunting death.

2. Edward replying back to Envy that he finally understood that it was jealous of humans all along.

The episode itself address a frail but burning issue, that's revenge.

Did Mustang had any right or need for revenge? From the instinctive and primal level, yes, he did. It was an eye for an eye what Envy did to Hughes, but not only to Hughes but to the countless lives lost with the Homunculus insidious actions to bring discord and conflict.

But, one has to take to consideration that Mustang worked very hard and fought through to reach where he's standing. He made a commitment to himself, to Hawkeye, to his comrades, and to the people to become the next Führer of Amestris in order to bring change to the country to derail it from its path of warfare. However, everything for what Mustang fought was about to crumble like a pile of cards just for the sake of revenge.

Mustang made a commitment, and had he delivered the killing blow on Envy before Ed, Scar, or Riza had stopped him, then he would have had betrayed not only his commitment and principles, but also people of his country, and he would surely had bemirsched and muddied Hughes's memory, as well as his soul. On the note, that such act would had reaffirmed that Father's right on humans being wayward, foolish beasts.

Liza, Ed, and Scar each provided their viewpoints and reasons on Mustang, but definitely it was Scar's POV that slammed a reality sense of Mustang, because only through one who was once consumed in revenge could bring another about to drunk in revenge to his senses.

Revenge is as human as forgiveness is. The only problem is that we have to go through lots of mess everyday, that we quickly grow disenchantised from forgiveness and see that revenge appeals better because to get angry or to hate someone is simple and fast; works at the instinctive level. While to forgive or to endure at least, requires an inner effort within ourselves to stay rational or to keep in check the rationale of our consciousness.

[DragoZERO]

That was brilliant epic gold. Simply, amazing. Everything was handled with finesse and man, it was great. If only every anime was like this (where they actually think about what they are making). Not saying "Fullmetal Alchemist" at Envy's eye catch was great. I felt a little bad for the guy, but only a little since you know, he was a bad guy and did bad stuff.

Awesome, so awesome.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Not saying "Fullmetal Alchemist" at Envy's eye catch was great.

Yeah I was definitely glad they did that. They seem to at least have the decency to avoid it when the eyetcatches take place right after dramatic moments (it was the same in episode 2 after Ed was trying to bring back Al's body).

[jimms]

Just since I can't resist a philosophical discussion . though its been a little while since I have read/watched a lot of this, so please forgive me if I get some facts wrong.

I think the main answer to Gooral's objection would be as follows. The rightness or wrongness of Roy's action has nothing to do with if Envy deserved to die (though I think we can all agree the answer to that question is yes). Instead, it is the intent behind the action which is important. St Thomas Aquinas put forward the idea that any action, even if it was otherwise just, done with ill intent was inherently unjust. So if the executioner of a mass murderer is doing it because he loves killing people, the entire execution is inherently unjust, and that seems to be the principle at play here. Roy was not intending to exact justice on Envy for his crimes; he was in a state of bloodlust, exacting vengeance for a friend. You don't necessarily have to agree with the view of Aquinas, which seems to be similar to the one used in the work, but it does make sense if you accept that as a premise.

And, it is important to note that there is a distinction between vengeance and "an eye for an eye." An eye for an eye implies that there is a reciprocity of action; you have done x, and so deserve x to be visited upon you. Its is a simple form of justice, and if the reason you take the other person's eye is because it is the just thing to do, then it can be a just action. But taking the other person's eye because they took yours and you want to see them suffer is not a just action; your will has nothing to do with justice whatsoever.

When comparing killing Envy to the Ishbalan war, I think its important to remember how much more knowledge we have then the characters did at the time. We know that the war would be more accurately characterized as a genocide. None of the soldiers knew that. From their perspective, part of their country was rebelling, and there is no country in the world that would not try to put down a rebellion; but since its the citizens themselves that are the enemy in a rebellion, it gets bloody. We know that the people on top were aiming for a genocide, but I am not sure that it would be apparent that was the goal to a soldier on the front lines. So I think the distinction between the two is, in one case, Mustang was following questionable (from the knowledge he had at the time, as opposed to horrifying as we know) orders, which he believes in hindsight were wrong. His intent there is still good; he has trusted that those above him know what they are doing, and that it is a just goal. The fact that he was wrong does not change the intent; whereas with Envy, he knows his intent is wrong and he tries to force through anyway. When weighing the practical outcomes of the actions, you are right that what he has done in the past is far far worse. But not every moral system focuses on outcomes, and I would say that it is intent that drives how your character changes more than the practical result, justifying the reaction of the other characters.

[Guardian Enzo]

That episode made me officially want to request an "11" option in the poll. No doubt the best single ep of the series so far for me.

We continue to pick, as we often have in this show, at the edges of just what good and evil are. Mustang has always danced precariously on that edge in my view - he's no less morally tainted by the Ishbal war than Kimblee. And his anger and revenge-driven actions of late have shed no light on his character's morality. Mustang is the ultimate "end justifying the means" character - as long as the ends are good (according to his world-view) anything he does to accomplish them is acceptable. That's why he admired Hughes so much - he was unclouded by the moral ambiguity Mustang loathed in himself.

Envy OTOH is certainly evil, by any reasonable standard. He's done incredibly evil things. But as he was writhing in agony, helpless, as Mustang slowly destroyed him in the most painful way he could, where did your sympathies lie in that moment? I wouldn't blame anyone for feeling either way, but I've always seen Envy more as a pitiable than loathsome character. In the end, Edward felt the same way. That was a truly bleak and desolate death scene that totally worked for me.

And then there's scar... But that discussion of moral ambiguity could last all day.

[klare]

Roy "the Homunculus buster" Mustang again stole the spotlight, really cant blame him for going for revenge

at the current pace, i am afraid the ending will not be able to be done when the TV series end... a few OVAs or movies perhaps?

[Grey]

Originally Posted by GaimeGuy

Grey:

In the manga, we do see civilians get slaughtered. We also see Roy approach a wounded ishbalan slunken against a wall, who mustang approaches and asks if he has any last words, to which the ishbalan replies "I curse you," before mustang ends his life.

IIRC, the two soldiers who amassed the highest body counts in Ishval were Mustang and Kimblee. By Amestris, Mustang is known as a hero, a man who valiantly defended his country in battle on the front lines (not from afar, but rather at the front of the amestris force), and ensured the survival of I believe every member of his entire unit.

Hmmm, yeah, I always thought the guy who cursed him was a warrior priest, but when I look again he might not be. The warrior priests don't seem to have any special uniform the points them out.

I forgot that Mustang had one of the highest body counts. Then again, with those explosions it's no wonder that Kimblee and Mustang would rack up kills. Though I have to wonder how many times Roy blew up people who were obviously fleeing civilians.

Originally Posted by GaimeGuy

(PS, you may have heard this already, but the guys who blew up Bradley's train and assisted Mustang against the squad that attacked him and Mrs. Bradley back in Central are the guys from his unit, who were cut out of the anime's ishval coverage)

Yeah, that was pretty cool. I didn't recognize them at first. But when I read through the Ishbal conflict again I thought, "waaaait a second, these guys look familiar...".

[xellos2099]

Not really related but I just watch the fma ova 3 where Izumi is training on mountain, she really beat a bear on her own.