Morality in Code Geass? Do the ends justify the means?

[EragonJeriel]

Unlike death note, morality here is pretty much a personal opinion, and as to what he will do after that...opinion differs.. all we can do is watch on.
As to why he was exiled to japan... lelouch mom was a japanese commoner right? she looked like a japanese in the painting.. or maybe because the nobles of area 11 are left rather untouched, so he was sent to that erm, ashford estate?

[Jewelray]

I don't think the show is far enough in to have revealed its views on this, but I'm pretty confident it will and that Lelouch won't be looked upon so favorably.

I like Suzaku's "changing from within" strategy, even though it's pretty near impossible, but I'm a tool like that...

[lana3007]

I don't think Lelouch is quite as selfish as some of you have said. Clearly his first priority is his sister and creating a place where she and people like her can be happy, but you can't say that it's all he cares about. The whole reason he originally ended up with the Geass power was because he went down to help the terrorists when their truck crushed in the first episode. He was the only one who was willing to do something to help them and he wasn't getting anything in return for it, which says a bit about him. I'd say that he does care about what happens to Japan, although he isn't fighting for exactly the same reasons as the terrorists are: terrorists want Britannia to leave them alone; while Lelouch realizes that this is impossible until Britannia is destroyed.

As for what Lelouch is going to do if/when he wins - it all depends on whether he will get power hungry or not. If he does then he will basically just take over from his father, but I am willing to give him the benefit of being better then that (especially if he has people like Nanali and Suzaku to remind him what his original purpose was).

[Klashikari]

this is rather unlikely to happen : lelouch was thinking about this for the very beginning, and admit to C.C that he was going to crush the empire, even without Geass.


also, the EP7 is really interesting, since it shows Lelouch's opinion about people, which humanize him a lot. (definitavely NO a stupid avenger stereotype ! ^^ )

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

this is rather unlikely to happen : lelouch was thinking about this for the very beginning, and admit to C.C that he was going to crush the empire, even without Geass.

yes he did say that...but with geass he was able to speed up his plan quite a bit
lulu is the type of person that can hold a grudge...and rightly so...i dont see any wrong with taking a country back from bandits who stole it in the first place...

the only problem is that i hope he doesnt get too much into his ego...i dont want him to turn out like another light

[Shiroth]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

lelouch was thinking about this for the very beginning, and admit to C.C that he was going to crush the empire, even without Geass.

I'm sure it wouldn't be as fun, though it would be interesting to find out what his original plan would have been if the Geass never came into play. Any ideas?

[Klashikari]

i hope so, but i think he won't, simply that he revealed a lot of his "philosophy" with his confrontation against C.C in EP7 (the speech commenting the weak)

but it's unclear if lelouch is doing this for the sake of everyone, or just save everyone indrecty, since if the weak can't survive, so nanaly won't either.

but it's really interesting that, though he seems cold and indifferent with his pawns, he doesn't only care about nanaly but his friends too.

so, no silly god complex sore loser light alike ! (for the moment ~~)


Shiroth : hummm... possibly some propaganda, and a sort of revolution?
without geass, it is really hard, that's true.
however, Lelouch has a tremendous charisma, and he has tactical requirements to deal with it (just like he did with his first encounter with karen, minus the fact he needed geass to steal viletta knightframe, of course)

[Clarste]

Okay, assume Lelouch has no ambitions of ruling. He plans on overthrowing Britiannia, returning unconditional autonomy to the nations conquered by Britannia, and then what? He's got a country (Britannia) full of people who hate him for killing their king, and probably tons of their friends and family members in the war. What's he going to do, oppress them? Because you can be sure they'll start plotting they're own terrorism.

It's certainly a better situation than when Britannia was ruling, because Lelouch is such a nice guy and will try to appease them, help them out, etc. But, doesn't this remind you of something? Oh yes, it's exactly the same as if Suzaku succeeds in changing Britannia from within. Except with a World War first. This isn't exactly a good thing.

On the other hand, I can't really see a peaceful way to get King le Britannia out of power, and it's clear that he needs to go before Britannia can change. Assassination's probably your best bet, but I'm sure the miltary and the heirs to the throne would just use that as an excuse to further oppress their conquered subjects. You'd have to assassinate a whole lot of people, and the resulting chaos might be just as bad as a war. On the other hand I could certainly see a miracle happening if Lelouch suddenly reveals himself as a rightful heir and manages to make a good first impression to the world. Or set up Euphemia as queen, although I doubt she'd react well to her older sister (and probably some older half-siblings) getting assassinated.

[Klashikari]

a vicious circle indeed (this is the flaw of the terror/violence).
now, i think that is where it will be intresting : what about lelouch clearing the path, while suzaku will change the rules and mentalities ?

lelouch would have the power to break the empire, while suzaku and euphemia have the power to change the world, in the aftermath of the fallen empire?
i was always thinking about this : Lelouch and Suzaku have both the same end, but differents means. but what about mixing the means, which would prevent a flaw from each other means?

as for a coup d'état, unfortunately, lelouch Vie Britannia is declared as dead, and the emperor would certainly erase any possibility to reclaim the throne for lelouch.

[Deathkillz]

meh imo lulu is doing what he is doing mainly for revenge on his mother, his sister and the way he was pushed aside by the king...
he hates loosing (same as light ) so hes trying to get revenge by demolishing britannia...
now that you mentioned it...suzaku and euphemia can be the future king and queen...providing that the kind is dead...i think that the end wont be just the "destroyed britannia" but instead a reformation lead by suzaku and euphemia to pose freedom and new laws...im sure this way everyone would be happy including lulu...personally so far i dont see lulu as wanting to rule anyone...just to get even...

[Sonhex]

Suzaku and Euphemia certainly appear capable of ruling what is left of Britannia once Lelouch has finished with it, assuming he wipes out all the Emperor's loyalists. Lelouch may even conclude Suzaku is the best way to ensure Nunally gets her peaceful future, because he himself has chosen the path of violence. A path that usually only has one conclusion. Even if Lelouch survives the Rebellion (unlikely), he'll most certainly be exposed as Zero and condemned for Clovis's murder (and possibly others hence). I cannot see Euphemia allowing that to go unpunished.

It will interesting to see how the world reacts to what Lelouch does. The Japanese may consider him a hero for restoring their freedom but the rest of Britannia, some of which may be pro-Empire incidently, may see him as nothing more than an assassin.

[EragonJeriel]

Heh i basically agree with everyone here... theres not really a right or wrong about this.
*off topic*
i wonder who is smarter, light or lelouch...
Edit: i didnt get the feeling suzaka wanted to rule....

[White Manju Bun]

Originally Posted by Sonhex

Suzaku and Euphemia certainly appear capable of ruling what is left of Britannia once Lelouch has finished with it, assuming he wipes out all the Emperor's loyalists. Lelouch may even conclude Suzaku is the best way to ensure Nunally gets her peaceful future, because he himself has chosen the path of violence. A path that usually only has one conclusion. Even if Lelouch survives the Rebellion (unlikely), he'll most certainly be exposed as Zero and condemned for Clovis's murder (and possibly others hence). I cannot see Euphemia allowing that to go unpunished.

I agree with that. More then likely Lelouch isnt gonn survive if the rebellion does win. Do you think Suzaku would want to rule Britannia (or whatever comes out of the ash) if the rebellion succeeds? He's the one who wants to change it from the inside. Would he take control after Lelouch was done conquering it? I do see that happening tho since every anime needs a sem-happy ending (doesnt it )

[[DOT].L]

While I get Lulu's desire for revenge and train of logic, Suzaku I don't get at all. Is he up for the "peaceful co-existence regardless of ruling class" philosophy, or is he aiming to oust the Britannia regime similar but not identicle to Lulu's ultimate goal? His enlistment in the Britannia military and status as a honourary Britannian suggest the former, but the televised funeral scene at the end of ep 6 implies he does hold at least some hostility towards Britannian rule. The impression I get from these two characters so far is that Lulu is the revolutionist whereas Suzaku is more of a reformer.

[cyoti]

Originally Posted by [DOT].L

His enlistment in the Britannia military and status as a honourary Britannian suggest the former, but the televised funeral scene at the end of ep 6 implies he does hold at least some hostility towards Britannian rule.

It might be because of the Emperor's outdated social darwinist views.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by cyoti

It might be because of the Emperor's outdated social darwinist views.

What's so outdated about it?

The world has always been a competitive world, survival of the fittest, there's no denying of that. That's why true communiusm will never work.

Suzuka is angry because of the Emperor's methods. Fighting and conquering. He firmly stated that he wants to make a world so that people wouldn't lose their loved ones such as his father and Clovis for Yuffie.

The Emperor literally takes evolution to the extremes but I can see his justification and it's logical. Though at the same time I'm not too fond of it as that could cause alot of civil strife and weaken the empire.

[anselfir]

Anyways, for these discussions, it is important to realise a few things. First, everything can be described by a series of individual actions: the State, the Nation, the whatever collective or collective interaction are all composed of individual actions, and these collective terms are either used for simplification or generalization, and oftentimes erroneously so. In any case, there is apparently already developed system of "morality for collective entities," but the basis of this is unclear, and cannot ever be justified based on the collective language without also being justified in the individual language. The true nature of action is always in the unit of the individual, and collective morality should also reflect that. Any collective system that contradicts with the individual system, that is, when examined under the language of the individual, there is a different ethical judgment, the individual system will always be superior. (the collective system exhibits deviations, rather than the other way around, since it does not exist in and of itself).

WIth this in mind, it is easy to resolve several paradigms. First, the state. What is the state. It is a series of actions, some coercive. The state does not refer to the people "in" the state, nor does it refer to anything that physically exist. It is merely a phenomenon. To destroy the state, simply stop the people whose actions compose the state from behaving that way. Tehre is no need to give physical form to the state and transfer hatred to it, nor is it accurate to describe people who live in a certain state as a part of that state. The rather fundamental mistakes of terrorism and other collective-hatred can be resolved in this way.

In essence, it is not a "us against them" world, it is a world made up of individuals who act in certain ways. Us and them do not exist.

An interesting word used in this thread, will something "work". What does that mean, why is it relevant. Perhaps you guys should discuss these basic conditions first, no.

usually animes like this will give you some divergent mentalities, each formed with their own confused understanding of things, and then perhaps give some obvious insights without taking the discussion to a relevant level, that is to say, an anarchistic level, tehehe.

[cyoti]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

What's so outdated about it?

The idea of social darwinism whose epitomy can be seen as the various eugenics projects of the 19th and 20th century and the Austrian Corporal himself and his various pet projects.

The world has always been a competitive world, survival of the fittest, there's no denying of that.

The natural world perhaps, but once you have a complex society like Britannia or the modern world, the idea of survival of the fittest becomes ludicrious since so much of survival depends on non-inheritable traits and weeding them out becomes difficult to impossible.

In the case of Britannia, the one who becomes the Emperor via the struggles between the various siblings is not automatically going to be the most suited for the governing of a globe-spanning Empire.

That's why true communiusm will never work.

The reason communism doesn't work has nothing to do with equality and lack of conflict, which it had in spades both external and internal, but rather too much government control in production and almost every other aspect of life with far too much devotion to ideology and purging of the old order.

[Retsoor]

Ideal concepts rarely come to fruition in real life. That's when you make allowable adjustments to it, and work with that.

>> since so much of survival depends on non-inheritable traits [...]
>> the one who becomes the Emperor [...]

The Emperor, in his own mind, has already addressed this issue. If your parents are poor, or your unfortune stems from non-genetic traits, overcome it, stay content with your lot in life, or die.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

The idea of social darwinism whose epitomy can be seen as the various eugenics projects of the 19th and 20th century and the Austrian Corporal himself and his various pet projects.

I think we both reached a misunderstanding here.

The emperor basically strives for a competitive world where if you want to get to the top, you do it with whatever you got. Even if your mental or handicapped you still have the opportunity to fight to the top. In this world we provide everyone with equal opporutunities as best as we can so that everyone has a chance. I think he's just using "evolving" in his own words.

In the case of Britannia, the one who becomes the Emperor via the struggles between the various siblings is not automatically going to be the most suited for the governing of a globe-spanning Empire.

Not really, the one who becomes the emperor through the struggles is most likely the one that is the most cunning, cruelest, and devastating. Basically the strongest.

Apparently the emperor actually provides people equal opporutnities from what I have seen for everyone to fight to the top. He provided Lelouch with shelter and establishes his children as dictators in various areas to see how well they fare.

Though likewise I'm against such an act because of the instability it could cause. The emperor is really taking it to the extremes.

The reason communism doesn't work has nothing to do with equality and lack of conflict, which it had in spades both external and internal, but rather too much government control in production and almost every other aspect of life with far too much devotion to ideology and purging of the old order.

Note I said true communism. No nation has ever reached that point.