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さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: in the land down under...
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Macross "Canon"
Alrightly, I'll start this off since it was my idea.
[MOD EDIT]TVTropes definition of "canon"[/MOD EDIT] ==================== The main point of this thread is to serve as a place where official comments about 'canon' in the Macross universe can be collected. It should also serve as a place for discussion, and for anyone who wants to ask a question specifically about 'canon'. ==================== Now, my interest in this topic started when I read the interview below, originally posted by Renato on Macross World and first linked by Yot-chan here. The original post was about two years old, so I've had to change the reference to "Chaos Anime Taizen" slightly, but everything else is as Renato posted it, and I'm pretty certain everyone already knows how trustworthy he is, right? And without further ado, here are the words straight from the horse's mouth (well, through a translator). ==================== The Explanation Quote:
========== Q: so when did Kawamori / the creators decide on this 'different representations of history' approach? Materials that some older Macross fans have found suggest that it was still being ironed out during the development and production of Macross Plus and Macross 7 (see the Q&A thread on MW). However, Kawamori himself seems to have used the 'different representations of history' explanation since at least the late 1980s / early 1990s. Quote:
And from the 1995 Animerica interview (Animerica Vol.3, No.1) Quote:
========== There are, of course, other approaches one could take, as Kawamori himself acknowledged in an interview from the first volume of the Sheryl manga (published 13 September 2010). Spoiler:
========== p.s. I'm not trying to push a particular agenda, although I do have my own view about 'canon', which will probably become obvious over time if it isn't already. But with all the different versions of most stories in the Macross universe, not to mention the various bits of interviews, information and opinions floating around the forum, all about what exactly 'Macross canon' is, I thought it'd be nice to collect all the important information in one place for reference so that everyone can make an informed decision for themselves. I will probably have more to add in due time, but please feel free to contribute and I'll link/add it if appropriate. Of course, please remember to include your sources. Last edited by karice67; 2012-09-02 at 16:19. Reason: edited the point in purple |
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さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: in the land down under...
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More from the creators (RW pov)
========== Kodachi Ukyou, author of the Macross Frontier light novels, from the afterword of volume 4, p.293. Published 1 March 2009. Quote:
========== Disclaimer from Variable Fighter Master File: VF-25 Messiah, published 10 May 2011. Quote:
-------- The other Variable Fighter Master Files say similar things in their disclaimers: Variable Fighter Master File VF-1 Valkyrie, published 14 July 2009. Quote:
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Last edited by karice67; 2016-04-25 at 01:51. Reason: updated the Valkyrie Master File Series disclaimers |
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さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: in the land down under...
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And from the 'in-universe' pov...
========== Q: So, is there an official history for the Macross Universe? ========== Based on what Kawamori said about his approach in that 1998 interview (see the first post of this thread), you might expect there to be an official recorded history for the Macross Universe. And there is: in some resources - such as Macross Perfect Memory - it's called the 'chronology' (年表). In Macross Chronicle (which is a publicaton like the Star Wars Fact Files, if you've ever heard of them), on the other hand, it's represented on 'Timeline Sheets'. From what I've been able to tell, a 'complete' chronology has been released at least three times, the second time being in the Macross 7 Memorial Materials Book that came with Macross 7 Box Fire II Box set (1999). Minor updates on Zero and Frontier have been collected by both Japanese and Western fans on various sites (see, in particular, Egan Loo's comments below), and the most recent attempt to elaborate on it has been the Timeline Sheets. The original chronology published in 1983, is included below (translation by Michael House). I will eventually add at least the chronology collected on the Japanese Macross wikia to this post, and am intending to look at as many of the Timeline Sheets as I can get my hands on as well. It will probably take quite a while, so for the moment, here's the chronology currently on the Macross Compendium...and here's their methodology. ========== ========== Q: Is this chronology primarily 'taken from' the original work in each story? i.e. SDFM, the Frontier TV Series etc... ========== I'm not 100% sure if this applies to the 'chronology' or if some might want to say it's about 'canon' instead, but from someone more knowledgeable about this than me: Quote:
=========== =========== Macross Chronology Version 1 The very first chronology that I've come across in my searches is this one, written by Kawamori alone and published in "Macross Perfect Memory" (Published Oct 1983 by Minori Library in Japan). NB: Please don't ask me why the date in the translation/stated by Egan Loo are different - I got the date from the book itself - 昭和58年10月10日. Spoiler for length:
[NB: I found this on the net some time ago, and am pretty certain I found it in one piece instead of having to remove all the additions that appear in Egan Loo's version on the old Macross Compendium, or on the new one linked above...but I can't find the original site. At any rate, you can check it against the translations in either version of the Compendium - or against the original Japanese text if you have it. (Strangely enough, the contents page says that this starts on page 58, but it actually starts on page 54 as noted.) I've only tweaked some character names in Michael House's version - will check it against the Macross Compendium version when I go over the next one I have on hand (the 1999 update).] Egan Loo's comments on his sources (site), written sometime during the 2000s: Spoiler for length:
===========
Macross Chronology Version 2 coming soon...
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Last edited by karice67; 2012-01-11 at 02:08. Reason: Edited blurb about the various chronologies |
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Link #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 49
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If you read the two interviews from Kawamori in the OP, his statements are actually contradictory.
Statement 1: All series are just in-universe fictional depictions of events which happened therein. Statement 2: The different interpretations of the series are parallel worlds. Statement two negates statement one. You cannot say that those different interpretations are just fictional in the "real" Macross universe, if you grant them the status of "real" parallel worlds. IMO, Kawamori is just making it up as he goes. There is no overachieving goal he is trying to push. As such, he is casually indifferent to what "real" canon is and will just take the stuff he likes for the next project he's involved with. We will probably never get a resolution to many of our current questions about Macross Frontier, just as with the older series. Sorry if this is kind of a downer opening post, but I just don't see Kawamori being all that concerned about the canonicity of events.
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さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: in the land down under...
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Quote:
Whether Kawamori has his own basic 'canon' or not needs something else that I haven't checked yet, so I'll leave that for the moment. But I think his comment that "I wouldn't mind if you take them as parallel worlds" is directed at Macross fans, basically implying that it's entirely up to each fan how they want to take it. "Parallel worlds" isn't how HE looks at it.
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 49
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Quote:
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さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: in the land down under...
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*shrugs* up to you. I mean, they're just different ways of looking at it. Who said the different ways have to be compatible with each other? It's up to each person to choose what works for them. I've certainly chosen what works for me, though I won't be stating it here yet...if ever.
And given what the light novel author said, not to mention all the other references he seems to have made about 'different interpretations' BEFORE the Sheryl manga, I think it's fair to say we know which one Kawamori himself prefers.
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Link #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Age: 49
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Eh, it's an interpretation. I'm not even saying it is false, I say that Kawamori seems to have changed his mind somewhat on the issue. And it's not as if he did do that from one day to the next, there's a time difference between those two interviews of 12-13 years.
People are allowed to change their mind from time to time. Especially if the timeframe is over a decade.
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Link #9 |
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Join Date: Jan 2009
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Depending on how reliable the english translation is, the two interviews don't seem to contradict each other imo:
In interview 2 he states: When the medium itself changes, I think it's good if it is rearranged here and there even if it's a same work. To be frank, I wouldn't mind if you take them as parallel worlds. To me this suggests that the animated works are interpretations of events in the main 'Kawamori' universe. While manga, novels, games etc. can be seen as works telling stories about events in parallel universes and Kawamori doesn't mind if they are significantly different from the animated universe. Even so, I doubt he cares that much about canonicity and only figured this out to get annoying fans of his back. The only Macross canon you can count on is spelled with double 'n'. |
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さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
Join Date: Nov 2009
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Quote:
But if you can find me enough evidence (i.e. interviews) to show that he's changed his mind, I'll consider myself defeated. ![]() Anyways, this is the last I'll say on this for the moment. I have other things to work on.
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Link #11 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 49
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Quote:
I think there is not enough evidence from your side to declare something definite, unless you present that further proof you say there is.
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Dame Cheesie
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Karice: While we're at it, would you like me to help compile all other interviews floating around the forum and elsewhere? Seiyuu interviews, Kawamori interviews, plus Yot-chan's episode commentaries on the way to being translated, these doesn't quite fit the thread, but they're everywhere at the moment, and I figured a separate section in here would be good.
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Link #14 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Quote:
Broad strokes is a concept regarding canon where the writers pick and choose what elements of an older story they want to accept into a more recent story. It could be that the overall story is intact but the specific details are changed, or that the story is ignored but the details introduced within are still being worked with. This is most often used when parts of the official canon or even basic continuity cannot be reconciled as they stand. |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 49
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Quote:
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Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2011-10-26 at 13:03. Reason: Edit button, edit button... |
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Catholic = Cat addiction?
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: MURICA!!
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Canon is whatever Kawamori & co. feel like, very simple. It had been like that in the beginning, and will be so in the future. Long-winded discussion in the interview was almost unnecessary.
Though the real reason behind the deviation from SDF probably resulted from Kawamori making one too many concessions with his sponsors while making the original. In my opinion, anyway. Thus it was not enough one Zentradi fleet to have ships in the millions, they needed a death star too in DYRL. ![]() Its like Warhammer 40K Codexes. Half-Eldars were fair game in the earlier editions, but by the 3rd edition, they largely disappeared. - Tak
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Last edited by Tak; 2011-10-26 at 12:47. |
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Join Date: Oct 2011
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I can understand where he is coming from but it brings up a curious dilemma at least in my mind. Going with his example of WWII, but instead of movies lets go with games. So there are tons a WWII shooters (call of duty, medal of honor, etc.) all tell similar stories yet differently. But then there's a WWII shooter like for example Resistance. Still WWII, but as we all know there were no big ugly monsters running around. Thus making a parallel to the call of duties and such. So going with that logical one can assume Robotech belongs in there too (at there very least the macross saga), right? But I do not think I am alone in saying robotech does not belong (even if I have fond childhood memories of it). I guess what I am saying is its fine going the nothing is real approach, but wouldn't you have to accept robotech as the red headed step child? If that's the case forget all these license problems. Have Global fire up the peace pipe and pass it to the left cuz the right ways wrong! Can't we all just get along.
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さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: in the land down under...
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Quote:
From what I can tell, that hasn't changed since that 1998 interview. For me, the clincher appears in the Master Files - though I only have access to one of them - but this won't be going up for a while. In other words, neither my pov nor yours matters (either on canon or on what Kawamori actually thinks) - Kawamori's does, and I don't think you have enough information to make a judgement on what that is yet. It also amazes me that you put so much stock in possible interpretations of what the creators say in interviews, but seemingly refuse to accept interpretation of scenes / incidents in the series that differ from yours. @Tak I would actually like to know when he started talking about Macross like this, because it's certainly one of the more interesting stances I've seen a creator take. And I personally like it better than the one that George Lucas takes...(or the one that the RahXephon creators supposedly take wrt the movie and the series...) Quote:
For the moment, here's a Westerner's perspective from before 1997. Here's the chronology compiled on the Macross Compendium. On each page, you can click on the "history" to see where the information has come from. The chronology I'm intending to put up here is more 'bare-bones' than that, for reasons I will state when I put it up.
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Last edited by karice67; 2011-10-26 at 15:49. |
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Link #20 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 49
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Quote:
With what we got so far, it seems that Kawamori updated his own opinion over the span of more of a decade. Given that most people evolve themselves in half that timespan in such a way that they think that their former selves were complete retards, I put more credence in the last information we have than in an interview from a decade+ ago. As to your last paragraph, creator interviews should have more weight than fan interpretations. That doesn't mean that fans can't be right, too, and I think my own interpretation of some characters ( especially Alto ) works much better than what Kawamori and Yoshino themselves think what they've done ( because there have been quite a few cases where a character did not come off like his creators intended... in this case to the advantage of Alto ). And ultimately, these are my own interpretations and they should not be more relevant to you than ones from other people. I've long accepted that I cannot convince everybody. Although it's fun to try. ![]()
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