AnimeSuki Forums

yadonashi · 2004-04-29, 23:42

why have fansubs' subtitles gotten so small? I get a headache just trying to watch anime now. I encode all the anime I download to vcd and watch 'em on tv and either the subs are too far down on the screen or they're too small.

also, which group did the best subbing of monster? I've seen anime-keep's and Soldats, both were too small, so how're Totan's and Anime-kraze's?

-

boneyjellyfish · 2004-04-29, 23:53

I think the problem must be your VCD encoding, because the subtitles look absolutely fine if you just play them on your computer.

Anime-Kraze is doing great work like usual. ToTan may be new, but their fansubs are both quick and painless.

marin · 2004-04-30, 00:07

Well, to be useful when encoded to VCD they have to be readable at 352x240.

I'm of the old mentality that subs should always be checked for readability at quarter-size (usually 320x240) - even if they are just barely, just to make sure they are large and visible for those who watch things on TV.

However, I'm not the one doing the encoding, so I guess I can't complain. You know, with it being free and all.

hentai_wolf · 2004-04-30, 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by boneyjellyfish

I think the problem must be your VCD encoding, because the subtitles look absolutely fine if you just play them on your computer.

Anime-Kraze is doing great work like usual. ToTan may be new, but their fansubs are both quick and painless.

It's a lot easier to read subtitles, even really small ones, when you're sitting 2 feet away from the screen. Watching them from across the room, even on a larger screen, is more difficult.

lavarock · 2004-04-30, 01:34

This is pretty much a problem for all fansubs on TV screen. I normally watch my divx/xvid directly from TV and don't have a problem with it, but some people do. Unless you have a softsub (such as vobsub), you can't do anything to increase the size of them.
That's why better container should be the trend for all video file for it's allowance of resizable sub within the file (such as ogm and mkv etc)

a7m4 · 2004-04-30, 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by lavarock

This is pretty much a problem for all fansubs on TV screen. I normally watch my divx/xvid directly from TV and don't have a problem with it, but some people do. Unless you have a softsub (such as vobsub), you can't do anything to increase the size of them.
That's why better container should be the trend for all video file for it's allowance of resizable sub within the file (such as ogm and mkv etc)

I think the reason most groups don't sure .ogm or .mkv is because they don't want their scripts stolen.

lavarock · 2004-04-30, 01:45

Yes softsub is always has this problem. But isn't the subtitle encripted and embedded in ogm/mkv format? Or maybe crackes are out there to stole the sub?
I am not sure but even thought it isn't, it should not be hard to use a fairly good encription on them

panianna · 2004-04-30, 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by lavarock

This is pretty much a problem for all fansubs on TV screen. I normally watch my divx/xvid directly from TV and don't have a problem with it, but some people do. Unless you have a softsub (such as vobsub), you can't do anything to increase the size of them.
That's why better container should be the trend for all video file for it's allowance of resizable sub within the file (such as ogm and mkv etc)

And there are a lot of people who don't like OGM and MKV formats because these formats:
1) Need additional codecs/splitters
2) Consume more CPU resources
3) Can't be watcted on standalone player and need to be demuxed/recompressed.

It looks like every watcher has different tastes.

marin · 2004-04-30, 02:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by lavarock

This is pretty much a problem for all fansubs on TV screen. I normally watch my divx/xvid directly from TV and don't have a problem with it, but some people do. Unless you have a softsub (such as vobsub), you can't do anything to increase the size of them.
That's why better container should be the trend for all video file for it's allowance of resizable sub within the file (such as ogm and mkv etc)

Wait, can you resize SSA softsubs embedded in MKV? I could never figure out how.

Quote:

Originally Posted by a7m4

I think the reason most groups don't sure .ogm or .mkv is because they don't want their scripts stolen.

And I tend to see that as a pretty pissant and childish rationale especially when one's work consists of distributing other people's copyrighted work in the first place, however again I don't do the subtitling so I don't really have any leverage to complain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lavarock

Yes softsub is always has this problem. But isn't the subtitle encripted and embedded in ogm/mkv format? Or maybe crackes are out there to stole the sub?
I am not sure but even thought it isn't, it should not be hard to use a fairly good encription on them

I don't think the MKV people have implemented any sort of encryption for the embedded SRT or SSA softsubs yet. Even if they do who knows how easy it would be to break anyway.

SirCanealot · 2004-04-30, 02:55

If someone really wants to streal a group's scripts, they'll just sit there and copy them out. Any group worrying about that, is just worrying too much.

lavarock: It's fairly simple to demux a script from a .ogm or .mkv. But I personally don't see the point or worrying anyway. As I said: If they want to steal, they will steal. At least they'll be using my timing that I spent hours on with whatever they are stealing the script for.

Edit: Anyway, as far as I know when using .mkv and .SSA there's NO way running Windows to change how the scripts are ran without demuxing, chaging them and remuxing. I've heard you can change it in Linux, but in Windows it's still 100% up to the decision of the typesetter, unless you can be botherd to de and remux it. (if someone knows of a way - please let me know!

)

.avi is just as "bad" in a sense as .mkv and .ogm. It's a very old format filled with hacks and workarounds. I'm suprised to see it working as well as it does. Whereass, .ogm and especially .mkv are very new, still in development formats which packs hella advantages over .avi.

yadonashi if you or anyone else have problems with subtitles being off screen on your TV, you need to understand overscan. Monitors don't have any overscan; therefor the fansubbers have a much bigger area to work with.
You can read about overscan here: http://scanline.ca/overscan/

When watching fansubs on a TV, you need to add overscan boarders. For VCD you can do this with an encoding program like TMPGEnc (if you're not using TMPGEnc you should be). You need to use the "clip frame" function. You'll need about 30-50 pixels to get away with no overscan - it's different with all TVs.
On the PC side of things, FFDShow can add boarders. Just go to the configeration and go to "Resize and aspect". There's a bar called "Black boarders" that you can ajust to give yourself some overscan boarders. I usely have to press the right arrow key with the bad selected 6-7 times on my TV-Out the way I run it.

If you simply just can't read them, time to get a bigger TV, or better even: Glasses!

I admit there's a lot of bad typesetters out there, but since I got new glasses some months ago, I've been happy again.

LordBrian · 2004-04-30, 12:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by marin

And I tend to see that as a pretty pissant and childish rationale especially when one's work consists of distributing other people's copyrighted work in the first place

I don't see how trying to prevent people who would use fansubs for monetary gain from using our subs is pissant and childish. I think you're confusing who the target audience is -- we're not trying to prevent other groups from stealing our subs, we're trying to prevent HK subbers.

Obviously it doesn't work, especially when they just take the whole subtitled file and stick it on a DVD and sell it like that. So surely the logic above is faulty, and not worth arguing over. Instead, how about you just assume that we hate you, and don't want you to watch our subs, and leave it at that pissant (puerile would work much better here, btw) and childish reason.

If you want a raw, you can download it yourself. If you want a group that oversizes their subs for TV viewing, then surely ONE of the groups doing Monster must suit your needs, regardless of the actual quality of the subs. But don't sit there complaining over the span of multiple posts and then continue to say that you have no right to complain. If you truly believed that, then you wouldn't have complained in the first place.

Zarxrax · 2004-04-30, 13:28

Actually lordbrian, I don't want other groups stealing the scripts either. I was personally very pissed off when that other group stole our Platonic Chain translations. Its not the fact that the people who actually did the work don't get credit for it... its the fact that someone else TAKES CREDIT for it. That's what gets me. The way I see it, if there are people out there low enough to go through the effort of stealing scripts out of a hardsubbed anime, just how many people would be ripping them off after we went with softsubs? I'm not saying this alone is resaon enough to keep from going with softsubs... but it is definately a major aspect to consider. With softsubs available, I bet we could even see groups popping up and taking the video off an officiall R1 release, sticking the fansub script on there, and throwing it up on bittorrent on suprnova, because they maybe think the script was better than the official one.
Also with softsubs you get into a whole deal with the subs not displaying how the fansubbing group intended them. We put a fair bit of effort into making sure the lines split at specific points, and that they take up a certain number of lines onscreen. That could all fall apart with a softsub, and the viewer might think WE just did a crappy job on it.

Gold_Rogers · 2004-04-30, 13:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordBrian

But don't sit there complaining over the span of multiple posts and then continue to say that you have no right to complain. If you truly believed that, then you wouldn't have complained in the first place.

I'm pretty certain he was being sarcastic...

LordBrian · 2004-04-30, 14:19

Zarx: Eh, in this day and age of speedsubs, even if a group were to rip someone's scripts from a released ep, so few people would watch the second group's release that it doesn't make much of a difference anyway. :P

Gold_Rogers: And I was being ironic, so I don't think anybody really missed anything.

SirCanealot · 2004-04-30, 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordBrian

I don't see how trying to prevent people who would use fansubs for monetary gain from using our subs is pissant and childish. I think you're confusing who the target audience is -- we're not trying to prevent other groups from stealing our subs, we're trying to prevent HK subbers.

As has been discussed before: Why would HK subbers want to wait or deal with English fansub translations? It's very rare that HK DVDs ship with English fansub translations on them. Why bother going through all that trouble, when you can either steal the scripts off Chinese fansubbers (who are much faster anyway) and do a dirty translation, or just get someone to do a dirty translation for you when you translate for the chinese subs? Let's get one thing straght: The HK bootleggers in no way care about the quality of the English script. Hell, most of them probebly don't know or care about english fansubs. They just want to make a quick buck.

Quote:

With softsubs available, I bet we could even see groups popping up and taking the video off an officiall R1 release, sticking the fansub script on there, and throwing it up on bittorrent on suprnova, because they maybe think the script was better than the official one.

First of all, they'd need to at least adjust the timing for that. The DVDs could have completely different timing. It'd most likely be no simple rip and remux job.
And second, how's that different from our current rippers? The DVDs are being ripped illegally either way of looking at it. If some idiot wanted to rip a script from an .mkv and put it on a DVD-Rip in place of the actual script well... it just seems kinda stupid to me, unless the R1 script is really bad (which is a big rarity these days). It seems like paranoia.
OMG, WTF if a group ripped the scripts from an .mkv and sent them to G.Bush!!!? 0_o

Quote:

Also with softsubs you get into a whole deal with the subs not displaying how the fansubbing group intended them.

Does no one read my posts? You can't change the way scripts are displayed in .mkv files to my knowledge in Windows (aparently you can in Linux. But most people running Linux know what they are doing anyway) without demuxing them, changing them in SSA and then remuxing them. And if I don't know how to do it without demuxing, then 1000 leachers aren't either.
You can in .ogm, since they are just .srt files which carry no fonting or colour information. And .srt sucks, which is why my group turned to .mkv and .ssa.
If someone went out of their way to screw up the .ssa somehow, and then complained to the group, they are stupid and should be killed.

Allthough, I have to admit soft subs basically are a flashy gimmick. I probebly wouldn't care at all if we used hardsubs, except it detracts from the video encode quality slightly. And I do also admit the "problems" with softsubs DO have ground. But personally, I don't really mind.

Secca · 2004-04-30, 14:50

What I heard with the HK DVD english sub is it's a software translated from Chinese to English, so not really that good in quality. And names become even mixed, when it goes from Japanese to Chinese to English.

Tofusensei · 2004-04-30, 15:01

I've seen more than one HK DVD that had scripts taken directly from english fansubs, they even kept in the original fansub credits (by accident, I am sure).

As far as the "resizing subs in a .mkv or .ogm" that people are referring to. There is no way to really resize them on the screen, but they will scale with whatever resolution you resize the video to, and I think that's what the original poster was referring to.

In any case, digital fansubs are intended to be watched either on a computer or with a TV-out card, IMO. Any other application is transcending those boundaries and complications should be expected. :X

-Tofu

guest · 2004-04-30, 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tofusensei

In any case, digital fansubs are intended to be watched either on a computer or with a TV-out card, IMO. Any other application is transcending those boundaries and complications should be expected. :X

-Tofu

Really? I have always wondered: I have this S-video output and the graphic card. I just upgraded it last year. You mean I can just get a cable and connect that to the TV then I will be able to watch fansub on TV (use TV as my computer monitor)? How about audio?

Secca · 2004-04-30, 17:17

Actually monitor screen has higher resolution than TV screen, except for the High Definition TV. It will look much crispier on a monitor screen in general. But that's people preference how they want to enjoy their anime. I know some people have those really big TV screens. ^^

SirCanealot · 2004-04-30, 20:05

The only time I watch anime on my monitor is when I'm working on it.

SD TVs > Most artifacts present on modern day digisubs. Macroblocking is almost blured out, pastelling is hard to notice... TV-Out > you all!
And my TV is significantly bigger than my monitor too, and it's 16:9, not shirty 4:3 :P
It does have its fair share of problems though; shity Radeon...
Audio is done via your PC. Luckily I have small satelite speakers, so it's easy to arange them around my TV instead of monitor.

Tofusensei: .ssa subs in a .mkv will display properly no matter what resolution you have your computer set to. Luckily .ssa and Direct Vob Sub aren't TOO stupid :P

And I'm sure there are quite a few HK DVDs sporting fansubed scripts, but the vast majoritory simply do not.

Anyway, HK DVDs are an essential part of our culture. Bored? Put on HK Lord of the Rings with subtitles on! BEST... SUBS... EVER!!

2004-04-29, 23:42	Link #1
yadonashi Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2004	tiny subs/monster subs why have fansubs' subtitles gotten so small? I get a headache just trying to watch anime now. I encode all the anime I download to vcd and watch 'em on tv and either the subs are too far down on the screen or they're too small. also, which group did the best subbing of monster? I've seen anime-keep's and Soldats, both were too small, so how're Totan's and Anime-kraze's? -

2004-04-29, 23:53	Link #2
boneyjellyfish Evangelist of the Kazoo Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: AnimeSuki Forums	I think the problem must be your VCD encoding, because the subtitles look absolutely fine if you just play them on your computer. Anime-Kraze is doing great work like usual. ToTan may be new, but their fansubs are both quick and painless.

2004-04-30, 00:07	Link #3
marin Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003	Well, to be useful when encoded to VCD they have to be readable at 352x240. I'm of the old mentality that subs should always be checked for readability at quarter-size (usually 320x240) - even if they are just barely, just to make sure they are large and visible for those who watch things on TV. However, I'm not the one doing the encoding, so I guess I can't complain. You know, with it being free and all.

2004-04-30, 01:34	Link #5
lavarock Busy wasting my time..:-( Join Date: Nov 2003	This is pretty much a problem for all fansubs on TV screen. I normally watch my divx/xvid directly from TV and don't have a problem with it, but some people do. Unless you have a softsub (such as vobsub), you can't do anything to increase the size of them. That's why better container should be the trend for all video file for it's allowance of resizable sub within the file (such as ogm and mkv etc)

2004-04-30, 01:45	Link #7
lavarock Busy wasting my time..:-( Join Date: Nov 2003	Yes softsub is always has this problem. But isn't the subtitle encripted and embedded in ogm/mkv format? Or maybe crackes are out there to stole the sub? I am not sure but even thought it isn't, it should not be hard to use a fairly good encription on them

2004-04-30, 02:55	Link #10
SirCanealot What? I am washed up! Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: London, England Age: 39	If someone really wants to streal a group's scripts, they'll just sit there and copy them out. Any group worrying about that, is just worrying too much. lavarock: It's fairly simple to demux a script from a .ogm or .mkv. But I personally don't see the point or worrying anyway. As I said: If they want to steal, they will steal. At least they'll be using my timing that I spent hours on with whatever they are stealing the script for. Edit: Anyway, as far as I know when using .mkv and .SSA there's NO way running Windows to change how the scripts are ran without demuxing, chaging them and remuxing. I've heard you can change it in Linux, but in Windows it's still 100% up to the decision of the typesetter, unless you can be botherd to de and remux it. (if someone knows of a way - please let me know! ) .avi is just as "bad" in a sense as .mkv and .ogm. It's a very old format filled with hacks and workarounds. I'm suprised to see it working as well as it does. Whereass, .ogm and especially .mkv are very new, still in development formats which packs hella advantages over .avi. yadonashi if you or anyone else have problems with subtitles being off screen on your TV, you need to understand overscan. Monitors don't have any overscan; therefor the fansubbers have a much bigger area to work with. You can read about overscan here: http://scanline.ca/overscan/ When watching fansubs on a TV, you need to add overscan boarders. For VCD you can do this with an encoding program like TMPGEnc (if you're not using TMPGEnc you should be). You need to use the "clip frame" function. You'll need about 30-50 pixels to get away with no overscan - it's different with all TVs. On the PC side of things, FFDShow can add boarders. Just go to the configeration and go to "Resize and aspect". There's a bar called "Black boarders" that you can ajust to give yourself some overscan boarders. I usely have to press the right arrow key with the bad selected 6-7 times on my TV-Out the way I run it. If you simply just can't read them, time to get a bigger TV, or better even: Glasses! I admit there's a lot of bad typesetters out there, but since I got new glasses some months ago, I've been happy again.

2004-04-30, 13:28	Link #12
Zarxrax Anime-Fansubs Join Date: Nov 2003	Actually lordbrian, I don't want other groups stealing the scripts either. I was personally very pissed off when that other group stole our Platonic Chain translations. Its not the fact that the people who actually did the work don't get credit for it... its the fact that someone else TAKES CREDIT for it. That's what gets me. The way I see it, if there are people out there low enough to go through the effort of stealing scripts out of a hardsubbed anime, just how many people would be ripping them off after we went with softsubs? I'm not saying this alone is resaon enough to keep from going with softsubs... but it is definately a major aspect to consider. With softsubs available, I bet we could even see groups popping up and taking the video off an officiall R1 release, sticking the fansub script on there, and throwing it up on bittorrent on suprnova, because they maybe think the script was better than the official one. Also with softsubs you get into a whole deal with the subs not displaying how the fansubbing group intended them. We put a fair bit of effort into making sure the lines split at specific points, and that they take up a certain number of lines onscreen. That could all fall apart with a softsub, and the viewer might think WE just did a crappy job on it.

2004-04-30, 14:19	Link #14
LordBrian Triad's Friendly Editor Join Date: Jul 2003 Age: 43	Zarx: Eh, in this day and age of speedsubs, even if a group were to rip someone's scripts from a released ep, so few people would watch the second group's release that it doesn't make much of a difference anyway. :P Gold_Rogers: And I was being ironic, so I don't think anybody really missed anything.

2004-04-30, 14:50	Link #16
Secca nya` Artist Join Date: Feb 2004	What I heard with the HK DVD english sub is it's a software translated from Chinese to English, so not really that good in quality. And names become even mixed, when it goes from Japanese to Chinese to English.

2004-04-30, 15:01	Link #17
Tofusensei Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tokyo, Japan	I've seen more than one HK DVD that had scripts taken directly from english fansubs, they even kept in the original fansub credits (by accident, I am sure). As far as the "resizing subs in a .mkv or .ogm" that people are referring to. There is no way to really resize them on the screen, but they will scale with whatever resolution you resize the video to, and I think that's what the original poster was referring to. In any case, digital fansubs are intended to be watched either on a computer or with a TV-out card, IMO. Any other application is transcending those boundaries and complications should be expected. :X -Tofu

2004-04-30, 17:17	Link #19
Secca nya` Artist Join Date: Feb 2004	Actually monitor screen has higher resolution than TV screen, except for the High Definition TV. It will look much crispier on a monitor screen in general. But that's people preference how they want to enjoy their anime. I know some people have those really big TV screens. ^^

2004-04-30, 20:05	Link #20
SirCanealot What? I am washed up! Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: London, England Age: 39	The only time I watch anime on my monitor is when I'm working on it. SD TVs > Most artifacts present on modern day digisubs. Macroblocking is almost blured out, pastelling is hard to notice... TV-Out > you all! And my TV is significantly bigger than my monitor too, and it's 16:9, not shirty 4:3 :P It does have its fair share of problems though; shity Radeon... Audio is done via your PC. Luckily I have small satelite speakers, so it's easy to arange them around my TV instead of monitor. Tofusensei: .ssa subs in a .mkv will display properly no matter what resolution you have your computer set to. Luckily .ssa and Direct Vob Sub aren't TOO stupid :P And I'm sure there are quite a few HK DVDs sporting fansubed scripts, but the vast majoritory simply do not. Anyway, HK DVDs are an essential part of our culture. Bored? Put on HK Lord of the Rings with subtitles on! BEST... SUBS... EVER!!