Fate/Apocrypha - Episode 4 Discussion / Poll

[Klashikari]

Welcome to the discussion thread for Fate/Apocrypha, Episode 4.

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[FlareKnight]

That was a good and surprising episode. Didn't expect Siegfried to die here...Certainly adds a new spin to Mordred calling Siegfried a fake during their fight in episode 1. Unless that first episode was straight up lying...

Will say Astolfo really is likable. Decided to do something that went against his 'faction', but doing so because that's who he is. They are servants, but they still have their own beliefs and desires. It just didn't fit with Astoflo to let someone die who asked to be saved and who Astolfo decided to help.

On top of that....the Red Faction seems to be in real trouble. That Rider and Archer have never even met their masters once is downright weird. I'm growing more sure that the Priest guy has basically brainwashed or drugged the other Red Faction masters outside of Sisigo.

[germanturkey]

a bit of a quick ending for black saber. i was expecting him to show down with mordred like in the first ep. these spirits don't have the "weight" of the ones from zero or stay night. i think only Karna has given me that impression so far.

[Incest Emblem]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

That was a good and surprising episode. Didn't expect Siegfried to die here...Certainly adds a new spin to Mordred calling Siegfried a fake during their fight in episode 1. Unless that first episode was straight up lying...

Some guesses as to what is going on with the first episode:

Spoiler for guesses as to the alleged fake Saber of Black:

1. The homunculus inherited part of Siegfried's power and can imitate him. He ends up fighting for the black faction somehow for that battle.

2. Caster of Black manages to capture the homunculus and activate his golem. The golem takes Siegfried's shape because of his heart that is in the homunculus.

3. It's Berserker of Red in disguise.

I am inclined to say 2 is the most plausible, largely because it fits better with Fate's grimdark setting.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Incest Emblem

Some guesses as to what is going on with the first episode:

Spoiler for guesses as to the alleged fake Saber of Black:

1. The homunculus inherited part of Siegfried's power and can imitate him. He ends up fighting for the black faction somehow for that battle.

2. Caster of Black manages to capture the homunculus and activate his golem. The golem takes Siegfried's shape because of his heart that is in the homunculus.

3. It's Berserker of Red in disguise.

I am inclined to say 2 is the most plausible, largely because it fits better with Fate's grimdark setting.

If nothing else I'm definitely feeling the speculation buzz after this episode . I didn't expect Siegfried to die here which just makes everything interesting and up in the air.

Of course it is a Fate story so...the servants are going to die. But nice that the story can still surprise.

Spoiler for Guesswork:

I'm going to say the third one probably isn't it. Since I'm now almost 100% sure Golem(?) thing that Jeanne is fighting in that scene is the Berserker of Red. The personality and insanity seems to match.

I'd probably guess at the first one, but with some changes. Looking at that scene again "Siegfried" does seem more uncomfortable than I'd expect from the real thing. So I could see it being the homunculi being able to mimic his power. Although I'm not sure about him fighting for the Black Faction. It could be that Jeanne and him are there for their own reasons and got caught up in this fight.

Though you never know. It's possible that he has the qualifications to fill in for Siegfried and is willing to take part in this war. After all he'd sure as heck have a wish for the Grail if he could get it.

[Tenzen12]

Well Sieg being entrusted to Jeanne by Siegfried us definitely good choice unfortunately it still didn't make episode entertaining in any way.

[Ultragunner]

ok, is this the first time that we see Archer-class Servants that actually...use archery?

The UBW Archer does use bow, but only sometimes, and that ain't his main skill
and of course Gil is nowhere an archer (in literal meaning)

EDIT: again, I'm an anime-only viewer

[John117xCortana]

Black Saber did something that was selfish and selfless at the same time...

[DragoMuseveni]

As a anime watcher only , I find this episode quite entertaining . A little rushed but entertaining . I felt a little teary when I saw Siegfried ( or Sumanai-kun) giving his heart to save someone . That made the entire episode

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

They made Atalanta a catgirl??!! They...turned...Atalanta...into....a catgirl...complete with gothloli-ish outfit??!!! Fffkkkussshht *trying hard to keep it in* whookay......I’ll just say this: the otaku-pandering is strong with this one. There, I said it. Now let me move on.

This episode is rather pleasant to watch. Thanks to Saint Seiya Asgard Arc that I saw in the 90s, I know a thing or two about norse figures after doing my own research years ago in libraries (now everybody can just go to Wikipedia). Sieg’s story tied a bit nicely to his legend although it’s weird that by the time of his realization, he never mentioned his son who got killed or his daughter who he never gets to raise (Did Siegfried even has children in Nasuverse?). The homunculus’ story is getting more interesting, I like it. On the other hand, thanks to his class, it’s unfortunate that I can’t see Spartacus’ quality as a leader, or is that how Nasuverse always portray Spartacus? And Ruler’s another ability is being able to see future events? And yeah, we see Sieg duelling with Mordy in the first episode, so watching Sieg’s death here means things are more than meets the eye and it will get more interesting. Anyway, the red faction smells really fishy. The music throughout this episode is pretty good though.

Err...some questions:

• Why did Achilles call Atalanta “sister” as a form of "sibling bonding"? They’re not related in any familial way afaik. Is that Achie's way of playing around or did Nasuverse make them somehow related? If anything, Achilles should call her auntie coz Atalanta beat his dad (Peleus) during his prime in a wrestling game .
• Achilles can’t recognize Chiron after he demonstrated his archery power/skill? That’s kinda weird since the two were quite close as master & pupil. Btw, Atalanta's husband (he's called Hippo-something) was Chiron's pupil too.
• So...do all Riders in Nasuverse have rides that can fly? That’s such a convenient way to travel. If Genghis Khan can be summoned as a Rider, will his horse be able to fly too?

[MeoTwister5]

Yeah I might as well treat this Grail War as a completely different entity from the original continuum as at least half of the actions done by Servants here would be unthinkable in the original timeline.

[Sheba]

I dont know why we should be expecting more or less the same as Stay/Night or Zero. There is not any Emiya so far, Mordred shows she's not Artoria and the only thing you can hope to be related to the Fuyuki Grail War is a Kotomine. Who is as non-trust-worthy as Kirei, judging from what he have done to the other Red Faction Masters.

[Ultragunner]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

They made Atalanta a catgirl??!! They...turned...Atalanta...into....a catgirl...complete with gothloli-ish outfit??!!! Fffkkkussshht *trying hard to keep it in* whookay......I’ll just say this: the otaku-pandering is strong with this one. There, I said it. Now let me move on.

This episode is rather pleasant to watch. Thanks to Saint Seiya Asgard Arc that I saw in the 90s, I know a thing or two about norse figures after doing my own research years ago in libraries (now everybody can just go to Wikipedia). Sieg’s story tied a bit nicely to his legend although it’s weird that by the time of his realization, he never mentioned his son who got killed or his daughter who he never gets to raise (Did Siegfried even has children in Nasuverse?). The homunculus’ story is getting more interesting, I like it. On the other hand, thanks to his class, it’s unfortunate that I can’t see Spartacus’ quality as a leader, or is that how Nasuverse always portray Spartacus? And Ruler’s another ability is being able to see future events? And yeah, we see Sieg duelling with Mordy in the first episode, so watching Sieg’s death here means things are more than meets the eye and it will get more interesting. Anyway, the red faction smells really fishy. The music throughout this episode is pretty good though.

Err...some questions:

• Why did Achilles call Atalanta “sister” as a form of "sibling bonding"? They’re not related in any familial way afaik. Is that Achie's way of playing around or did Nasuverse make them somehow related? If anything, Achilles should call her auntie coz Atalanta beat his dad (Peleus) during his prime in a wrestling game .
• Achilles can’t recognize Chiron after he demonstrated his archery power/skill? That’s kinda weird since the two were quite close as master & pupil. Btw, Atalanta's husband (he's called Hippo-something) was Chiron's pupil too.
• So...do all Riders in Nasuverse have rides that can fly? That’s such a convenient way to travel. If Genghis Khan can be summoned as a Rider, will his horse be able to fly too?

let me say this also, Atalanta is said to get cursed either by Zeus, Rhea or Aphrodite into a lion...perhaps this is why she is portrayed like a cat-girl in anime
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atalanta
or at least that's what the wiki says

IMO, Achilles calls Atalanta "Ane-san" as a sign of respect, similar to "anego" (that is often used by delinquents). And don't you think calling a lady u just meet "auntie" or "oba-san" awfully disrespectful?

[bakato]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

They made Atalanta a catgirl??!! They...turned...Atalanta...into....a catgirl...complete with gothloli-ish outfit??!!! Fffkkkussshht *trying hard to keep it in* whookay......I’ll just say this: the otaku-pandering is strong with this one. There, I said it. Now let me move on.

This episode is rather pleasant to watch. Thanks to Saint Seiya Asgard Arc that I saw in the 90s, I know a thing or two about norse figures after doing my own research years ago in libraries (now everybody can just go to Wikipedia). Sieg’s story tied a bit nicely to his legend although it’s weird that by the time of his realization, he never mentioned his son who got killed or his daughter who he never gets to raise (Did Siegfried even has children in Nasuverse?). The homunculus’ story is getting more interesting, I like it. On the other hand, thanks to his class, it’s unfortunate that I can’t see Spartacus’ quality as a leader, or is that how Nasuverse always portray Spartacus? And Ruler’s another ability is being able to see future events? And yeah, we see Sieg duelling with Mordy in the first episode, so watching Sieg’s death here means things are more than meets the eye and it will get more interesting. Anyway, the red faction smells really fishy. The music throughout this episode is pretty good though.

Err...some questions:

• Why did Achilles call Atalanta “sister” as a form of "sibling bonding"? They’re not related in any familial way afaik. Is that Achie's way of playing around or did Nasuverse make them somehow related? If anything, Achilles should call her auntie coz Atalanta beat his dad (Peleus) during his prime in a wrestling game .
• Achilles can’t recognize Chiron after he demonstrated his archery power/skill? That’s kinda weird since the two were quite close as master & pupil. Btw, Atalanta's husband (he's called Hippo-something) was Chiron's pupil too.
• So...do all Riders in Nasuverse have rides that can fly? That’s such a convenient way to travel. If Genghis Khan can be summoned as a Rider, will his horse be able to fly too?

Atalanta's cat features are actually part of her myth.

Spoiler for Answers:

1. It's a form of respect.
2. It was just an arrow and there's plenty of divine archers who could've done that. Honesty, he didn't want to believe it was Chiron.
3. They wouldn't be riders if they couldn't do that.

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Yeah I might as well treat this Grail War as a completely different entity from the original continuum as at least half of the actions done by Servants here would be unthinkable in the original timeline.

The format of this war makes it completely different in terms of storytelling and character. Since it's literally a team battle, we can't expect to see servants dying anytime soon, but we can expect more stalemates. In a regular Holy Grail War, it's a seven way tag team battle royale, but at its fundamental level its more like every master and servant for themselves.

[drawr]

I see why Siegfried had a flashback last episode, then. I did really like his speech though even if they really rushed it. Even without having a lot of investment in the characters I am enjoying their moments. Astolfo proved he's real hero. Despite the overly cutesy introduction, he has principles.

[Sheba]

And before anyone say Alexander, remember that the Gordian Chariot was supposedly to be originally a gift from Zeus. To think it may have properties imbued by the God of Thunder himself is not that far of a stretch.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Ultragunner

let me say this also, Atalanta is said to get cursed either by Zeus, Rhea or Aphrodite into a lion...perhaps this is why she is portrayed like a cat-girl in anime
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atalanta
or at least that's what the wiki says

Originally Posted by bakato

Atalanta's cat features are actually part of her myth.

I've known Atalanta's story quite well before I even knew about Fate franchise. I first read about her in an encyclopedia in my school library back in the 90s. That said, using her lion-curse aspect as a trait to turn her into a catgirl as an excuse for otaku-pandering is not something I'm happy about. Why didn't they just use her lion-curse as an animality-esque skill or Noble Phantasm or something instead? That said, let's move on.

Spoiler for Answers:

1. It's a form of respect.
2. It was just an arrow and there's plenty of divine archers who could've done that. Honesty, he didn't want to believe it was Chiron.
3. They wouldn't be riders if they couldn't do that.

Thanks for the answers.

Originally Posted by Ultragunner

IMO, Achilles calls Atalanta "Ane-san" as a sign of respect, similar to "anego" (that is often used by delinquents). And don't you think calling a lady u just meet "auntie" or "oba-san" awfully disrespectful?

Well, respect aside, Atalanta is more or less in the age-range of Achilles' dad, Peleus. Both of them hung out during their prime .

[Twi]

Man, Gordes was a screw up from start to finish. He was ordered to bring the homunculus back alive. Not cave in his chest with a fist of metal.

And Berserker got bodied in a hurry.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I've known Atalanta's story quite well before I even knew about Fate franchise. I first read about her in an encyclopedia in my school library back in the 90s. That said, using her lion-curse aspect as a trait to turn her into a catgirl as an excuse for otaku-pandering is not something I'm happy about. Why didn't they just use her lion-curse as an animality-esque skill or Noble Phantasm or something instead? That said, let's move on.

We haven't even seen her noble phantasm so what makes you think they haven't?

[magnuskn]

"Help, help, they are putting more anime tropes in my pseudo-historical, uh, magic kamehameha battle royale constant-genderbend anime! How dare they!!!". Really?