AnimeSuki Forums

Xellos-_^ · 2004-10-16, 17:56

I notice that some of the newer groups are using ogm or mkv instead of the the usual divx/xvid. i have compare the video and audio quality and i didn't really notice any difference in quality and since it is fansubs theres only 1 audio channel anyway. Why are some groups using ogm or mkv? wheres the advantage of using ogm or mkv for fansubs?

Somedude · 2004-10-16, 18:02

Well, this thread has been done a bunch before.

Simply put, ogm/mkv allows for softsubs which means there's very little overhead needed for subs and no impact on the video.

Both containers allow for ogg audio.

I'd like to note as well, that mkv/ogm are both just containers for the video and audio streams, and as such, usually follow the conventional popularity of divx/xvid.

zappater · 2004-10-16, 18:19

Xvid & Divx are codecs mkv & ogm are containers.
The reason some may use mkv or ogm instead of avi is because the development of avi has stopped (at least that's what I have heard.) and mkv & ogm is still under development.
And well mkv is a better container but xvid and divx has nothing to do with this, they are just codecs.

Kyuven · 2004-10-16, 18:54

ogm's are a pain in the ass to play sometimes for people who don't have the right software to play it (i.e. me)
plus they're larger file size (the tsukuyomi ogm files are about 80 megs larger than the raw version of the same episode)

Tiamat's Disciple · 2004-10-16, 19:14

Personally, i hate ogm and mkv. I'm not really computer literate, and for the most part ive only used windows media player and occasionally jukebox for mp3 making

mkv and ogm dont play properly in media player though, you lose the subtitles and oftern it just wont play full stop. Sure its easy (sort of) to get another player like clasic player, but its not as easy to use and learn as media player.

I hate microsoft with a vengence, but media player IS a good player, and one im comfortable with. Its a shame more and more groups are swapping to ogm and mkv since it means i wont be able to get the new shows

dreamless · 2004-10-16, 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyuven

ogm's are a pain in the ass to play sometimes for people who don't have the right software to play it (i.e. me)
plus they're larger file size (the tsukuyomi ogm files are about 80 megs larger than the raw version of the same episode)

Hmm... actually it just means they got better raws I think... But then I don't see much reason of using ogm unless they put in multiple subtitles of different languages and/or multiple audio streams of different languages...

the main advangtage of mkv/ogm is mostly that they can contain multiple subtitles/audio streams. and mkv can support more subtitle formats/have more subtitle effects than ogm I think. So for multi-language releases, sure, use them.

Shii · 2004-10-16, 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyuven

plus they're larger file size (the tsukuyomi ogm files are about 80 megs larger than the raw version of the same episode)

I could actually make my fansubs roughly 100MB without any major quality loss, but I don't want to reencode a perfectly good raw.

Also, I find it kind of funny that you are slamming OGMs here whereas in the other thread you are planning on making an animated GIF, which is only possible thanks to the softsubs. (unless if you enjoy cropping subtitles out of your screencaps)

halo · 2004-10-16, 19:48

The Matroska container (.mkv) has less overhead than .avi so the filesize will be slightly less. It can also contain more video codec types such as RV10 and audio codecs like AC3 or AAC. THese are nice if you want full surround sound. Both ogm and mkv can also hold chapters as well. And perhaps by the end of the year .mkv will have DVD style menu support.

Also, since soft subs can be muxed into a typical episode in less than a minute, it seriously cuts down on the release time not having to reencode it to hardcode the subtitles.

AnimeGurl · 2004-10-16, 19:56

My only gripe with OGM/MKVs is their dislike for older comps...ugh...drives me crazy.

Though I think OGMs are a bit friendlier to older comps. Without Vobsub, my 700mhz celeron can play OGMs fine but my 366mhz lappy has flickering subs with OGMs which I know no way of fixing.
For now I really have to avoid MKVs because of their insistence of using VobSub. VobSub eats up too much memory for either of my comps to handle causing video to lag and such.

So yeah, avis it is for me. I don't have any need for softsubs anyways.

Darth_E_ · 2004-10-16, 20:03

One of the advantages in encoding with mkv is variable framerate ( unlike avi). There are many anime titles which come with 29.97 FPS op/end and 23.97 FPS ep> ogg audio is another advantage. Adding mulitple audio tracks is another, but is almost useless unless you are encoding a licenced show....

Yours,
-Elly

M.S.A · 2004-10-16, 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamless

Hmm... actually it just means they got better raws I think... But then I don't see much reason of using ogm unless they put in multiple subtitles of different languages and/or multiple audio streams of different languages...

the main advangtage of mkv/ogm is mostly that they can contain multiple subtitles/audio streams. and mkv can support more subtitle formats/have more subtitle effects than ogm I think. So for multi-language releases, sure, use them.

Yeah that's exactly right ...and mkv has the advantage for supporting more subtitle formats than ogm ... some of my friends managed to encode an anime episode sized about 80MB with a great quality with ogm I think that's pretty intresting for those who like to burn less CDs

Somedude · 2004-10-16, 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnimeGurl

My only gripe with OGM/MKVs is their dislike for older comps...ugh...drives me crazy.

Though I think OGMs are a bit friendlier to older comps. Without Vobsub, my 700mhz celeron can play OGMs fine but my 366mhz lappy has flickering subs with OGMs which I know no way of fixing.

You're actually not discribing computers there, but glorified paperweights.

Seriously, you can't expect a computer that's nearly a decade old to work with new technology.

Shii · 2004-10-16, 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Somedude

Seriously, you can't expect a computer that's nearly a decade old to work with new technology.

Hey, before I got my current encoding computer I did Photoshop work, etc. from a 333MHz IBM.

Processing power is also why I chose OGM over MKV; it seems dumb to sacrifice usability, compatibility, and speed just to make your subtitles flashier.

mako1138 · 2004-10-16, 22:09

Softsubs also allow for better video compression, since you're not having to devote extra bits to those starkly out-of-place letters.

AVI is kludgy and inextensible, so OGM and MKV have come along to take its place. Now we have support for multiple audio streams of a whole bunch of formats, unicode subtitles, etc. If there wasn't a need for these new formats, nobody would have developed them. And, more tellingly, nobody would be using them.

MKV propaganda
setting up for OGM

Processing power is always going to increase, so why not use it to make prettier subtitles? =P

Somedude · 2004-10-16, 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashibaka

Hey, before I got my current encoding computer I did Photoshop work, etc. from a 333MHz IBM.

Processing power is also why I chose OGM over MKV; it seems dumb to sacrifice usability, compatibility, and speed just to make your subtitles flashier.

But I'm betting you didn't sit around going "OH NOES! WHY DOESN'T EVERYTHING WORK WITH MY ANCIENT COMPUTER!?!?!?"

Fair enough on choosing OGM, it is after all more stable than MKV, but I've never really had a problem with either one.

I've never really noticed that either one uses more processing power than avi unless it's karaoke or effects, then it just decimates any computer.

eean · 2004-10-16, 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Somedude

Fair enough on choosing OGM, it is after all more stable than MKV, but I've never really had a problem with either one.

I've never really noticed that either one uses more processing power than avi unless it's karaoke or effects, then it just decimates any computer.

Yea, I was going to say, the only reason an OGM or MKV should take more CPU is because they are more likely to use softsubs. I'd imagine you could tweak how your softsubs are displayed (turning off antialiasing, making sure their not translucent or anything fancy) if your computer is too old.

And yea, if I was a fansubber I wouldn't release MKV unless I had some specific reason to need it, just because the spec isn't firm yet.

Yamano667 · 2004-10-17, 09:38

bottomline we dont want ebayers to sell fansubs on the net or make DVDs
of our fansubs

ogm and mkv is HARD to make all region DVDs

kapish

Ledgem · 2004-10-17, 10:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taliesin

I hate microsoft with a vengence, but media player IS a good player, and one im comfortable with. Its a shame more and more groups are swapping to ogm and mkv since it means i wont be able to get the new shows

Just to let you know, I've played OGMs and MKVs just fine with Windows Media Player series 9 (haven't tried with series 10, or anything below series 9). I think a while back, there was some deal about how the only media player one could use to play MKVs was Media Player Classic (and no offense to the people who like it, but I really hate that player). But... apparently, not anymore, and they work fine on BSPlayer as well, my player of choice. Seeing as how it works across three players, it's probably safe to say that these can be played on practically any player at this stage.

Assuming the OGM/MKV hasn't had any major OGM/MKV special capabilities done to it that AVIs wouldn't normally support (such as softsubs), it's actually quite easy to convert an OGM or MKV to AVI, and with no loss to video quality (sound may need to be re-encoded, but that's no big deal). I don't think that there are enough OGMs or MKVs released to warrant a major explanation of the process (and it'd probably be to your benefit to adapt to OGMs and MKVs, too =) ). I'd like to clarify again, though, that DivX/XviD and OGMs/MKVs aren't the same thing. I had no idea what the true difference was until I converted an OGM to AVI myself. When people say it's a "container" they mean it in quite the literal term. Think of DivX/XviD as the video itself; AVI/MKV/OGM is just what it's held in. You can essentially "take the video out and put it into another container" without ever having to re-encode the video itself, so that the video itself will always look the same, but the programming around it changes.

eean · 2004-10-17, 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamano667

bottomline we dont want ebayers to sell fansubs on the net or make DVDs
of our fansubs

ogm and mkv is HARD to make all region DVDs

kapish

Cause folks in Hong Kong (where most of the pirated anime on ebay seems to come from) can't get them elsewhere? I'm sure they can get a satellite dish like anyone else. It's a false agrument.

mako1138 · 2004-10-17, 12:32

^^^

I agree. Besides they wouldn't need to go through all that trouble. If they know how to make DVDs, why couldn't they learn how to use VirtualDub?

2004-10-16, 17:56	Link #1
Xellos-_^ Not Enough Sleep Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: R'lyeh Age: 48	why ogm/mkv I notice that some of the newer groups are using ogm or mkv instead of the the usual divx/xvid. i have compare the video and audio quality and i didn't really notice any difference in quality and since it is fansubs theres only 1 audio channel anyway. Why are some groups using ogm or mkv? wheres the advantage of using ogm or mkv for fansubs?

2004-10-16, 18:19	Link #3
zappater zapper Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Sweden, Basement Age: 35	Xvid & Divx are codecs mkv & ogm are containers. The reason some may use mkv or ogm instead of avi is because the development of avi has stopped (at least that's what I have heard.) and mkv & ogm is still under development. And well mkv is a better container but xvid and divx has nothing to do with this, they are just codecs. Last edited by zappater; 2004-10-16 at 18:36.

2004-10-16, 18:02	Link #2
Somedude Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Age: 43	Well, this thread has been done a bunch before. Simply put, ogm/mkv allows for softsubs which means there's very little overhead needed for subs and no impact on the video. Both containers allow for ogg audio. I'd like to note as well, that mkv/ogm are both just containers for the video and audio streams, and as such, usually follow the conventional popularity of divx/xvid.

2004-10-16, 18:54	Link #4
Kyuven Bishoujo Goodness Galore! Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Stuck Between Reality and Fantasy	ogm's are a pain in the ass to play sometimes for people who don't have the right software to play it (i.e. me) plus they're larger file size (the tsukuyomi ogm files are about 80 megs larger than the raw version of the same episode)

2004-10-16, 19:14	Link #5
Tiamat's Disciple Disciple of the Flames Join Date: Sep 2004	Personally, i hate ogm and mkv. I'm not really computer literate, and for the most part ive only used windows media player and occasionally jukebox for mp3 making mkv and ogm dont play properly in media player though, you lose the subtitles and oftern it just wont play full stop. Sure its easy (sort of) to get another player like clasic player, but its not as easy to use and learn as media player. I hate microsoft with a vengence, but media player IS a good player, and one im comfortable with. Its a shame more and more groups are swapping to ogm and mkv since it means i wont be able to get the new shows

2004-10-16, 19:48	Link #8
halo Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2004	The Matroska container (.mkv) has less overhead than .avi so the filesize will be slightly less. It can also contain more video codec types such as RV10 and audio codecs like AC3 or AAC. THese are nice if you want full surround sound. Both ogm and mkv can also hold chapters as well. And perhaps by the end of the year .mkv will have DVD style menu support. Also, since soft subs can be muxed into a typical episode in less than a minute, it seriously cuts down on the release time not having to reencode it to hardcode the subtitles.

2004-10-16, 19:56	Link #9
AnimeGurl total anime fan Join Date: Oct 2004	My only gripe with OGM/MKVs is their dislike for older comps...ugh...drives me crazy. Though I think OGMs are a bit friendlier to older comps. Without Vobsub, my 700mhz celeron can play OGMs fine but my 366mhz lappy has flickering subs with OGMs which I know no way of fixing. For now I really have to avoid MKVs because of their insistence of using VobSub. VobSub eats up too much memory for either of my comps to handle causing video to lag and such. So yeah, avis it is for me. I don't have any need for softsubs anyways.

2004-10-16, 20:03	Link #10
Darth_E_ Freelance TS'er/Encoder Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Canada Age: 39	One of the advantages in encoding with mkv is variable framerate ( unlike avi). There are many anime titles which come with 29.97 FPS op/end and 23.97 FPS ep> ogg audio is another advantage. Adding mulitple audio tracks is another, but is almost useless unless you are encoding a licenced show.... Yours, -Elly

2004-10-16, 22:09	Link #14
mako1138 tsun tsun dere dere Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chicago	Softsubs also allow for better video compression, since you're not having to devote extra bits to those starkly out-of-place letters. AVI is kludgy and inextensible, so OGM and MKV have come along to take its place. Now we have support for multiple audio streams of a whole bunch of formats, unicode subtitles, etc. If there wasn't a need for these new formats, nobody would have developed them. And, more tellingly, nobody would be using them. MKV propaganda setting up for OGM Processing power is always going to increase, so why not use it to make prettier subtitles? =P

2004-10-17, 09:38	Link #17
Yamano667 Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The moon :)	bottomline we dont want ebayers to sell fansubs on the net or make DVDs of our fansubs ogm and mkv is HARD to make all region DVDs kapish

2004-10-17, 12:32	Link #20
mako1138 tsun tsun dere dere Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chicago	^^^ I agree. Besides they wouldn't need to go through all that trouble. If they know how to make DVDs, why couldn't they learn how to use VirtualDub?