Why not release translations first?

[Ronbo]

Fan-Sub groups as well as fans would both benefit from a translation first release!

1st Since most fan-sub groups create their translations before they do anything else this means that the fans could watch raws using soft-sub translations post haste.

2nd Bandwidth allocation seems to be a major issue with some fan-sub groups that rely on donations to help them balance out their out of pocket expenses each month. Script first releases could greatly reduce this problem as an entire series could be released in script form for less space than a single episode requires. Plus many regard fan-subs as a stop gap measure as a means to evaluate a series prior to purchasing it on DVD. This means that fewer fans would actually have the need download the fan-subbed episodes and this alone would help solve the bandwidth issue.

3rd Lately a few fan-sub groups have been using H.264 as their preferred format for encoding and only releasing their subs in this format. This leaves several without a means to watch these subs for one reason or another. Releasing these translations in script form would allow those who have issues with this format to watch these episodes without being left out.

4th Many fan-sub groups fall behind in their releases due to different circumstances and as a result their fans start bitching. Especially if they are the only group doing a series. Regardless of how far behind in their releases they are if scripts are released in a timely manner no one would really have any reason bitch.

5th Licensing often comes into play and many but not all fan-sub groups stop their work on a project once licensing is announced.
Translations by fan-sub groups however do not infringe on any rights provided under copyright law that a licensee receives in the creation of their own translation so long as the each translation is original and was obtained from the original source material.
So although a fan-sub group may drop a specific title once it is licensed there is nothing prohibiting them from continuing to release the translations only. Unless of course they get a C&D letter from the copyright holder of the source material!

I can see many benefits to the release of translations first, or as a means to complete a series that was dropped, but very few reasons not to!

[xris]

Originally Posted by Ronbo

5th Licensing often comes into play and many but not all fan-sub groups stop their work on a project once licensing is announced.
Translations by fan-sub groups however do not infringe on any rights provided under copyright law that a licensee receives in the creation of their own translation so long as the each translation is original and was obtained from the original source material.
So although a fan-sub group may drop a specific title once it is licensed there is nothing prohibiting them from continuing to release the translations only. Unless of course they get a C&D letter from the copyright holder of the source material!

This is total and utter BS.

While translation for your own personal use is allowed, you may not distribute a translation (and posting it on a website or allowing it to be downloaded counts as distribution) unless you have specific permission to do so.

This misinformation seems to be your favourite bee in your bonnent, and while it does have some elements of truth, they way you present it is quite incorrect.

And as an aside, this thread will no doubt go the way of most other threads of this nature (i.e. those claiming that distribution, without permission, of licensed material is somehow legal) so here's some advanced warning... expect it to be closed soon unless the discussion steers away from this particular issue.

[Access]

(1) Are you familiar with what goes on once a 'bare translation' is made? It has to be checked, edited, qc'ed, etc. Encoding it or attaching it to the video is just the final step, and it takes only a few hours if that. (2) Bandwidth is hardly an issue today with the tools avaliable (BT, etc.) (3) Take it as it is or leave it. (4) Most of the time the series is held up b'cos of the translator to begin with. If people 'bitch', that's their problem, not the group's. (5) No, that is a lie, a translation is considered a 'derived work' under the law and distributing a derived work without permission of the copyright holder is illegal.

[Enragin_Angel]

Originally Posted by Ronbo

Fan-Sub groups as well as fans would both benefit from a translation first release!

1st Since most fan-sub groups create their translations before they do anything else this means that the fans could watch raws using soft-sub translations post haste.

Not all translators are created equal. Some translated scripts require heavy editing, some don't. The editing and research is for your benefit.

Originally Posted by Ronbo

2nd Bandwidth allocation seems to be a major issue with some fan-sub groups that rely on donations to help them balance out their out of pocket expenses each month. Script first releases could greatly reduce this problem as an entire series could be released in script form for less space than a single episode requires. Plus many regard fan-subs as a stop gap measure as a means to evaluate a series prior to purchasing it on DVD. This means that fewer fans would actually have the need download the fan-subbed episodes and this alone would help solve the bandwidth issue.

You still have to distribute the raw and usually, the fansub encode is smaller than the raw size. Not all leechers know how to obtain raws easily on their own. And if the group has to serve the raw, then they aren't really saving bandwidth at all.

Originally Posted by Ronbo

3rd Lately a few fan-sub groups have been using H.264 as their preferred format for encoding and only releasing their subs in this format. This leaves several without a means to watch these subs for one reason or another. Releasing these translations in script form would allow those who have issues with this format to watch these episodes without being left out.

What happens when the group uses an H.264 raw? There would still be many left out (barring the FEW that would actually retime the script to another raw).

Originally Posted by Ronbo

4th Many fan-sub groups fall behind in their releases due to different circumstances and as a result their fans start bitching. Especially if they are the only group doing a series. Regardless of how far behind in their releases they are if scripts are released in a timely manner no one would really have any reason bitch.

And if the translator was behind, the fans would start bitching again. The fans always bitch.

Originally Posted by Ronbo

5th Licensing often comes into play and many but not all fan-sub groups stop their work on a project once licensing is announced.
Translations by fan-sub groups however do not infringe on any rights provided under copyright law that a licensee receives in the creation of their own translation so long as the each translation is original and was obtained from the original source material.
So although a fan-sub group may drop a specific title once it is licensed there is nothing prohibiting them from continuing to release the translations only. Unless of course they get a C&D letter from the copyright holder of the source material!

I can see many benefits to the release of translations first, or as a means to complete a series that was dropped, but very few reasons not to!

xris already answered this one.

[Eeknay]

As mentioned, a lot more than just the raw translation is required. Second of all, you're pretty much forcing people to then go hunt for a raw. Not to mention that some raws aren't exactly easy to find, so you're pretty much just saying "have a .ssa, gl hf finding a raw" when some people have trouble downloading a fansub to begin with.

Also, there's the fansubbers point of view. When a fansub gets released, the majority of the time it's a hardsub. Subtitles can't be edited, or extracted (not without effort anyway, which leechers probably don't have). If you distributed scripts only, people would be able to keep them and put them against DVD raws, and then no-one has much incentive to buy the DVDs. Fansubbers don't like leechers having a high level of control over their scripts, and of course they want people to actually buy the DVDs. Also, if everyone distributed raw scripts, how would we all see the amazing karaoke?!

As for the rest of your qualms; bandwidth isn't that big a deal nowadays unless you're doing an incredibly popular series and have xdcc bots, in which case you probably should be relying on BT more heavily. If a project is moving slowly, tough! You should wait and be thankful it's being done in the first place. As for the h264, we've been on that merry go round many times so I'm not going to bother.

[DryFire]

Originally Posted by Enragin_Angel

Not all translators are created equal. Some translated scripts require heavy editing, some don't. The editing and research is for your benefit.

Don't forget timing.

You still have to distribute the raw and usually, the fansub encode is smaller than the raw size.

In a lot of cases the release my also look better then the raw; anyone who's worked with an aska raw should be able to attest to this.

The fans always bitch.

qft.

Originally Posted by Ronbo

3rd Lately a few fan-sub groups have been using H.264 as their preferred format for encoding and only releasing their subs in this format. This leaves several without a means to watch these subs for one reason or another.

Actually you have a couple of options:
1) Buy a better computer.
2) Try coreavc (either the free alpha or 1.0 payware; though sitll a bit buggy imo).
3) Transcode the release.
4) If it is softsubbed, demux the script and watch it with another raw.

[bayoab]

Only thing I can add to the above posts:

Originally Posted by Ronbo

2nd Bandwidth allocation seems to be a major issue with some fan-sub groups that rely on donations to help them balance out their out of pocket expenses each month. Script first releases could greatly reduce this problem as an entire series could be released in script form for less space than a single episode requires. Plus many regard fan-subs as a stop gap measure as a means to evaluate a series prior to purchasing it on DVD. This means that fewer fans would actually have the need download the fan-subbed episodes and this alone would help solve the bandwidth issue.

Releasing an episode on BitTorrent with you as the only seeder is free. You do not need to run a website. You do not need to run your own bots. Not doing this helps keep costs down. (Also, you don't have to have a questionable donation link for money that you have no idea how its really being used.) The groups that rely on donations are using a flawed model that will eventually implode on them or running a great scam.
Bootnote: I know some groups use donations legally and are good about it. This is not trying to suggest everyone is.

[Access]

One thing I forgot to mention, you can't just take any script and put it on any raw and have the timing match up over the whole episode. How often do you see a raw that is just a straight continuos capture, they have commercials cut out and IVTC'ed and such. Anytime you are chopping up or reforming a video like this, you are going to miss a few fractional frames here and there and over the entire video it can add up.

[LytHka]

Just another one, then it can be made into a sticky : If you really want to get raw translated/timed scripts from fansubbers for usage with DVD releases (that's really the only reason why you would need them anyway), all you really need to do is to ask politely for them. If fansubbers determine that you're not just some fuck who wants to use their scripts for a creation of another fansub/DVD rip/bootleg, then by all means you have a good chance of receiving them. Polite persistency in terms of idling and chatting with fansubbers is usually the key (or fansubbing itself lol). Others with malevolent agenda don't know such patience.
For ripping script streams out of embedded softsubs I suggest mkvtoolnix and YAMB.

[Ronbo]

Since I don't want this topic locked please steer away from responding to item #5 in my above post. I only wanted to get some feed back on the merits of releasing the translations first and not start any kind of flame wars. Sorry if this was taken for any more than a request do determine if this was a good or bad idea and the reasons either way.

[Schneizel]

Point's #1 and #2:
Uhh yeah... sure they could watch it... assuming they had the same raw... You know, you said translation-only. Releasing a softsub file implies it's been timed, which means you do need a raw, and as far as bandwith and softsubbed goes, there's this raw provider who a lot of groups use called Aska. Aska makes like 500-700mb raws for 23-25min shows. How are would a subber save bandwith distroing a 700mb raw? Even if we told you to get your own, this goes back to point #4: Leecher bitching, because then it turns into, "HOW DO I GIT UR RAW?" etcetc. It's a cycle of headaches either way.

Not just aska, but there are a lot of raw providers who make raws huger than the final product of 140/170/230/whatever.

#3:
Whether you can play h264 or not is soooo not our problem, and it's especially not the problem of those who dual release XviD and h264 for people who can't play h264. As for those who release only-h264, it's still not their problem: Either you can watch it or you can't. Playing h264 is not that extreme. With CoreAVC people with lower end computers have gotten it running pretty well.

#4:
Bitch, please. Fans will always kick, scream, and whine. Some people want a styled, karaoked, encoded product, and refuse to do something like figure out howto use MKV Merge. Others will happily oblige. Point in case: Eureka seveN. Nanashi's scripts were leaked, and some people downloaded the scripts, others refused to because they want to wait for Nanashi. The behavior of the fan community does not support your argument for #4.

[CelesAurivern]

Originally Posted by kodachrome

others refused to because they want to wait for Nanashi.

Don't forget the foreign thieves.
I'm sure they all appreciate a head start.

[gumbaloom]

Not to mention the HK bootleggers / Ebay'ers.

Thats why I'm not going to give out scripts on a widespread basis as that would just be a big come on for illegal profiteers.

And anyhow, leechers can't demand anything and should just wait.

-gumbaloom

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by kodachrome

#3:
Whether you can play h264 or not is soooo not our problem, and it's especially not the problem of those who dual release XviD and h264 for people who can't play h264. As for those who release only-h264, it's still not their problem: Either you can watch it or you can't. Playing h264 is not that extreme. With CoreAVC people with lower end computers have gotten it running pretty well.

Pfft. What alternate universe are you from? Are you telling me you don't get 500 leechers coming by and going "can't play your file, what do i do wrong"? If you only encode in h.264, you deserve all the people bitching at you and asking you for tech support to play it back. (Unless your encoder is the only one who supports it in which case you should tell every person to PM him for help.) Releasing script only will only increase this to "Hey, the subs don't show up" after they finally get h.264 to work.

[TheFluff]

Originally Posted by bayoab

Pfft. What alternate universe are you from? Are you telling me you don't get 500 leechers coming by and going "can't play your file, what do i do wrong"? If you only encode in h.264, you deserve all the people bitching at you and asking you for tech support to play it back.

You send them to #cccp@irc.chatsociety.net (or cccp-project.net/phpbb2, if they're IRC-incapable). Problem solved, or at least moved out of sight.
The problem isn't the people who ask for help with it, since that's relatively easy to fix for people like the commies in #cccp. No, the problem is the know-it-all's who have decided that H264 is a Bad Thing and is voicing their opinion all over the intarwebs. But for those, there's always the kickban option.

[Eeknay]

Originally Posted by bayoab

Pfft. What alternate universe are you from? Are you telling me you don't get 500 leechers coming by and going "can't play your file, what do i do wrong"?

Lesse, from the time I've been idling in #gg and #za-warudo, there have been approximately 0 people in #gg. In #zw there quite a few, but people complained more about the video being slow/laggy since obviously 720p h264 kills a lot of CPUs. The actual amount of "how do I see the video" isn't that many (5-10 maybe?).

There was only one case where I had to send someone on their way to #cccp but I can't remember the specifics.

Oh, and 0 people in #Arienai also (then again that's not surprising with our huge like xbox 30-40 chan size :P)

[Schneizel]

Originally Posted by bayoab

Pfft. What alternate universe are you from? Are you telling me you don't get 500 leechers coming by and going "can't play your file, what do i do wrong"? If you only encode in h.264, you deserve all the people bitching at you and asking you for tech support to play it back. (Unless your encoder is the only one who supports it in which case you should tell every person to PM him for help.) Releasing script only will only increase this to "Hey, the subs don't show up" after they finally get h.264 to work.

Whoever said I only encode or release in h264?

Refer to `BK's post above for all other issues.

[Enragin_Angel]

kodachrome only encodes and releases in h264.

There, I said it.

/me runs

[wraith-]

The only impetus behind this thread I see is for a leecher to get his quicker and easier fix for his weekly anime and nothing else. In no way does this "help out" fansub groups since the technological standard these days makes bandwidth concerns a non-issue and costs can be as minimal as the group wants them to be, since there are many free service substitutes out there.

TLers in groups are there for a reason. They want to be involved in the whole fansubbing process. Otherwise, you'd see TL scripts on tokyotosho popping up. If you want your quick fix, either 1> find your own personal rogue TL to do the TLing for you (unlikely to happen); or 2> go learn japanese so you can just TL the anime yourself. (In either case, have them/you self come my way)

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by TheFluff

You send them to #cccp@irc.chatsociety.net (or cccp-project.net/phpbb2, if they're IRC-incapable). Problem solved, or at least moved out of sight.
The problem isn't the people who ask for help with it, since that's relatively easy to fix for people like the commies in #cccp. No, the problem is the know-it-all's who have decided that H264 is a Bad Thing and is voicing their opinion all over the intarwebs. But for those, there's always the kickban option.

No, normally I just tell them to uninstall CCCP and install plain old ffdshow official alpha and everything works fine. Yes, really.

And you see the "how do i play this" issue when you move from xvid->h.264.