Genre "Anime" and "Manga" Controversy

[Nicole Louis]

I went to Books-A-Million and Barnes and Noble a week ago and looked through the manga shelves. I've noticed that there are quite a few graphic novels that have been created by American authors. There aren't too many of them around, though.

The thing that bugs me is this ongoing arguement whether a work has to be published in Japan for it to be called manga or anime, or if it's just the artstyle that makes it manga/anime.

[Nenkitsune]

i tend to call anything done by americans Graphic Novels and anything from japan, Manga. same meaning, just different name.

[Aoie_Emesai]

Technically manga and animes are Japanese, but they basically have the same meaning and an American or not author creating a Japanese style in any country other than Japan is still anime and manga as long as it follows some typical non-typical features of the industry.

[Vexx]

I'll let the natural field biologists sort it out. I divide them into "want to read" and "avoid".

[Robotnik]

"All manga are comics, but not all comics are manga..."

Since I still buy regular American comics and OEL "manga-styled" comics on occasion, I personally *do* make the distinction between that and "real" manga, but I'm not promoting the labeling either way.

To further muddy the waters, all the Japanese bookstores I've been in have the manga on shelves that say "コミック" ("komikku" = "comics")

I have more of a problem with video stores that still consider anime a subgenre of sci-fi; my local Blockbuster Video only recently stopped doing this when they finally got some anime other than the old Akira and Ghost in the Shell movies. Then there are also the bookstores that put all "graphic novels" under the hierarchy of "for kids\humor comics"; a lot of the outlet/closeout bookstores still do this.

[UzumakiW]

Originally Posted by Vexx

I'll let the natural field biologists sort it out. I divide them into "want to read" and "avoid".

Same with me. It doesn't really affect me on what they call mangas or not. I've come to think of Japanese written books when I think of the term "manga," but I don't try to section out the American written ones. I just section them into the ones I want to read, and the ones I don't care to read.

[bayoab]

The short of it is, if you don't actually care how a word is defined, then just leave it to those who care.

The long is that it really comes down to linguistics and what happens when a word gets borrowed. Like otaku, when manga was borrowed it took on a different connotation and denotation from the original Japanese word. The fun part when it came to manga is that it was never actually defined when it was borrowed. It was just done as "This is manga." Then companies went "Well... this (OEL) is manga too." It's all a game of connotations and the denotation through those.

The same pretty much happened with anime. The results of this one was pretty much dictated by the companies and where they wanted their products on the retail shelves though. There are still those who argue though.

There is actually a lot of OEL/Global Manga/Whatever you want to call it out there. Just the majority of it doesn't sell at all and thus B&N and similar won't stock it. The thing is that the companies want it with the Japanese manga because they see the audiences of both materials being the same and are thus dictating to the retailers to put them together to improve their sales.

[Rahan]

Originally Posted by Robotnik

"All manga are comics, but not all comics are manga..."

In some parts of the world with a local "comic" industry (at least in France), this sentence doesn't work

In France, the word comics refer specifically to works published in the USA (and maybe the UK by extension, I am not sure. Until Alan Moore popped up, it designated almost only super hero stuff) by opposition to the stuff published in France and Belgium (Asterix, Tintin ...), just like manga and manwha (we have had a few published here, but I haven't read one yet) refer to stuff published in japan and Korea.

It makes sense since comic and manga means the exact same thing in their own language. Don't the japaneses sometimes call manga all the american or european stuff ?

[qtipbrit]

eh, I could probably refer to them by the commonly accepted "OEL (Original English Language) Manga", as they share many traits with "True" manga, though they are not Japanese.
Of course, Anime will only refer to Japanese animation of the style in which all animation series considered "Anime" are animated. That being said, "Avatar: the Last Airbender" doesn't deserve to be bolded as The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, Ef - A Tale of Memories, and Hayate no Gotoku would.

Ah, and I believe there is a Korean equivalent of Japanese manga called "Manhwa", which could further prove that "Manga" is more representive of Japanese works.

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by qtipbrit92

Ah, and I believe there is a Korean equivalent of Japanese manga called "Manhwa", which could further prove that "Manga" is more representive of Japanese works.

This usage is a cultural issue and boils down to the a similar issue as the loan word manga. The key difference is a matter of cultural identity. Manhwa is sold with all other graphic novels, but has to be called manhwa for licensing issues. I once heard CPM give a small background on how Korea-Japan cultural tensions still exist and how the strongly the authors feel about it being called manhwa, but I don't remember the specifics.

Originally Posted by wikipedia

Manhwa is the general Korean term for comics. Outside of Korea, the term usually refers specifically to South Korean comics.

In fact, if you look at the revision history for the wikipedia article, you can see Japanese editors claiming that manga=manhwa and Koreans claiming otherwise.

[Irenicus]

I don't much care for the linguistic backgrounds of the words. They are interesting, of course, but not in a let's-have-a-stupid-fight-over-names kind of way. Even the average person is often aware of the nature of loanwords, and the differing connotations and definitions that words carry in different regions.

Moreover, marketing tactics are what they are. If Tokyopop thinks calling their comics "OEL manga" would improve sales, I don't really care. If they prove popular enough that the word becomes a common usage (with its own differing connotations and definitions of course), good for them.

However, I strongly object to the claims of "manga-style" as if manga [as in Japanese comics] only has one style. There are certainly a few distinctive dominant styles, but the sheer size of the comics industry in Japan is such that labeling something "manga-style" kind of, how do I put it, kills brain cells?

Example: Berserk, Fruit Basket, Crayon Shin-chan, Sexy Voice and Robo, and Naruto are all manga in every sane person's definition (let's not go to the complex fringes). And I'd slap you really hard if you really think they all have the same general "style."

[Chiibi]

As my ex once pointed out, any comic drawn in Japanese FIRST definitely would make it "manga". That's why I do that and then switch it to English afterwards...cause my friends can't read Japanese.

[KholdStare]

I have one category, comics, and one sub-category, manga. Japanese comics I call manga, and American comics I call...comics. That's a general enough name for it, and there doesn't need to be any other subdivisions.

[Aoie_Emesai]

Originally Posted by KholdStare

I have one category, comics, and one sub-category, manga. Japanese comics I call manga, and American comics I call...comics. That's a general enough name for it, and there doesn't need to bee any other subdivisions.

Very true. I do the same. American made comics I call comics and Japanese made comics I call mangas too.

[TinyRedLeaf]

It comes down to cultural representation. That collection of pictures and text in your hands will still be as interesting regardless what your society calls it. For the sake of comparison, here in Singapore, manga/manhwa/manhua is clearly distinguished from comics/graphic novels. Manga is from East Asia, comics are from America. We take the difference for granted. Both forms of storytelling are very well represented here, but I think comics are more popular, because most Singaporeans are more fluent in English than Japanese/Korean/Mandarin.

So the main distinguishing factors lie in geography and language, it would seem. But some would argue aesthetic style is also distinguishing factor. You may argue that there is no such thing as a single manga/anime style (which is true), but by and large, there are distinguishing traits that make them different from American comics/cartoons. So much so that you can spot the influence of manga aesthetics in some American comics.

That's globalisation and the cross-pollination of ideas for you. I feel that this is something worth celebrating. Purists would differ, of course, but they are welcome to their own opinions.

Originally Posted by Rahan

In France, the word comics refer specifically to works published in the USA (and maybe the UK by extension, I am not sure. Until Alan Moore popped up, it designated almost only super hero stuff) by opposition to the stuff published in France and Belgium (Asterix, Tintin ...), just like manga and manwha (we have had a few published here, but I haven't read one yet) refer to stuff published in japan and Korea.

On a related note, I found this interesting article from the BBC:

France takes its comics very seriously

BBC News (16 Feb 08) - France sees itself as the world capital of "bandes dessinees" or BDs, what we might call comics. Thousands of albums are published every year and there is even an international festival in the town of Angouleme.

I was bear-hugged at the station by a sky-blue pixie in a Phrygian bonnet. Who were this tribe of cerulean leprechauns? And why did I find their cavorting both familiar and annoying? Memories of children's television in the 1970s and a dreadful song by a Dutchman called Father Abraham flooded back.

Of course! It is the Smurfs, now aged 50, in fact celebrating their actual 50th birthday with this merry-making publicity stunt in the cobbled lanes of a provincial town in western France.

The Smurfs, or to be more precise les Schtroumpfs, are not actually French. They are Belgian, and their creator, Pierre Culliford, was in fact half English. But they are part of the canon because, where comic strips are concerned, France and Belgium are reckoned to be one and the same.

They call it "la bande dessinee Franco-Belge" and, for all the frolicking frivolity of our little friends in blue, it is no joking matter. If you have ever been to a bookshop in France you will know what I mean.

Next to the bit for regular books - you know, those old-fashioned things with writing in them - you will find an equally big, if not bigger, section for Les Bay-Day. You can spot it when you walk in the door because invariably there are several glum-faced individuals sprawled on the floor or sitting against a wall engrossed with an album that they have purloined from the shelves.

Comic connoisseurs
If you look further you will see that the BD section - pronounced Bay-Day - is in fact sub-divided into several categories.

There will be classics - Asterix, Tintin, Lucky Luke, the cowboy who shoots faster than his shadow - plus many that never made it out of Franco-Belgium, like Rahan - "l'enfant des ages farouches" or "child of the age of savagery" - about a Tarzan-like figure from prehistoric times.

There will be the latest best-sellers. Top of the book lists this month - beating Harry Potter and the latest on President Nicolas Sarkozy's love life - has been the last in a long-running adventure series called Thirteen about a man trying to rediscover his identity after losing his memory.

There will be the American comics section, the Japanese Manga section - this one getting bigger and bigger because they are getting more and more popular.

And then, pride of place, the section for what the French call "les Auteurs". Here, the most highly regarded authors are catalogued by name. This is the art-house end of the market. An album in this section may sell only a few hundred copies - compared to half a million for the latest hit - but the true connoisseurs will know all about it.

Have a Smurfy Day!

[esfir]

i think referring to an american-produced comic as "manga" simply because the art-style is similar to that in japanese comics is maybe something akin to filming americans dressed in authentic indian apparel as they sing and dance, and then labeling it as "bollywood".

an important factor to consider is that even if the art-style is similar, the stories, themes and characters will generally not possess elements of what is common in manga. this is, of course, only natural, as americans are not japanese--the cultures are different, and thus, so will be their creations, respectively. if i pick up a graphic novel that is created by an american company, and tells a story of highschool love in tulsa, oklahoma, it's not going to come close to that of a manga that tells a story of highschool love in kobe.

the style of art is only one piece of the puzzle--there are many other characteristics that make manga what it is.

on the other hand, i am a bit of an elitist, and refuse to label any licensed manga as such once it hits the shelves. the moment it's translated in english and released to the masses, it's then a graphic novel in my mind. i think a big part of this may be due to the fact that some of the translations are completely bogus, and they'll, for example, replace the name of a famous japanese musician for the name of someone well-known in america--like replacing a reference to ken hirai with that of 50-cent (i don't know if they still do this as i stopped reading translated manga a long time ago).

[Rahan]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

On a related note, I found this interesting article from the BBC:
BBC News (16 Feb 08) - France sees itself as the world capital of "bandes dessinees" or BDs, what we might call comics. Thousands of albums are published every year and there is even an international festival in the town of Angouleme.

Well, I never heard anyone stating we were the world capital of comics anymore (or that we even were) At best, the capital of our own style of comic (which includes stuff like italian Corto Maltese), but since I have always heard our school of comic called by the name of the countries, I think we have always (at least since I am into comic) been aware we were only a school of comics among others.

Besides, everyone here is aware we don't have world-famous writers. (just checked the list of "world famous franco-belgians comic writers" from the French wikipedia and they are all dead but two who are 70 and 81 years old, which isn't a good sign)

There will be classics - Asterix, Tintin, Lucky Luke, the cowboy who shoots faster than his shadow - plus many that never made it out of Franco-Belgium, like Rahan - "l'enfant des ages farouches" or "child of the age of savagery" - about a Tarzan-like figure from prehistoric times.

There is almost nothing in english about Rahan, except this. I also strongly object to the Tarzan reference. Rahan is a badass, but his strengths are actually his intelligence and his curiosity and he rarely uses force to solve his problems.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by esfir

i think referring to an american-produced comic as "manga" simply because the art-style is similar to that in japanese comics is maybe something akin to filming americans dressed in authentic indian apparel as they sing and dance, and then labeling it as "bollywood".

Okay... THAT was very funny imagery