[Manga] Claymore Chapter 77 Discussion

[Gooral]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Thats what the stats tell us, Miria is actually slightly above Noel and Sophia as far as overall ability goes, and her leadership makes her more competant in groups. (...)

Comparing Miria's and Sophia's stats it shows that Sophia should be stronger in 1 on 1 fight. Miria's and Noel's agility and strength are exact opposites, they have the same mental capabilities and at sensing Sophia is whole one grade better. In leadership Miria is the queen but that couldn't help her in defeating Riguard, on the other hand sensing helped Clare to dodge Riguard's attacks. As for youki, Miria has a "+" advantage but we have to remember she was half-awakened as #6 and as we know after partial awakening there is some boost to the stats.

[Fate_Archer]

Originally Posted by Anima

@Fate_Archer: It doesn't matter if Galatea released yoki only in her arm or not. Once she releases yoki it flows all over from her. I am not saying that she utilized that yoki in her whole body during Agatha's battle. I am talking about how her yoki suppression is no longer the case as yoki is circulating her whole body now. Why am I so certain? Because Irene released yoki only in her right arm (just like Galatea's case) using the QuickSword and Rafaela got her because of that and said:
"You've hidden yourself well all this time. And after all these years of suppressing your yoma aura, it has almost vanished. It couldn't be sensed. It was a mistake to practice your Quicksword technique. Because of that, you are radiating yoma energy like a normal warrior."
Emphasis is mine.

So it seems once yoki is used, suppression is no more. I think the question is how fast can Galatea re-suppress her yoki again.

And in case my previous post was misunderstood, I don't think that Galatea is not capable of regenerating. She is because she is defensive type. What I was arguing is that it was pointless since it is an exhausting process. Miria said that Deneve couldn't regenerate her abdomen as she did with her arm because she exhausted herself on the arm. Galatea was already exhausted and the balance of winning is not in her favor so why waste more energy on low chances?

As you have said yourself, she has to release yoki near her limits to regenerate fast unlike Deneve who could do it easily because she's half-awakened. Imagine Galatea fighting Agatha while trying to fend off relentless Miata releasing her yoki near the limits while exhausted to regenerate an arm! One mistake, and we have a former #3 awakened.

I just read your sentence again, firstly I understood that you questioned if there was evidence that Galatea had been hiding her yoki.
The phrase that comes before your question shows that actualy you know. My bad, I didn't read it carefully.

And I agree with your established points.
Except maybe with Deneve effortlessly regenerating herself. It's not so effortlessly, there is a high rate of yoki release to achieve this kind of regeneration, though it may happen easier now that she is half-awakened.

Originally Posted by Flar

Not that it matters much, because who is stronger between Galatea and Teresa is utterly irrelevant, but:

If it didn't matter, you wouldn't bother.
But I guess it costs nothing to expose our view of things.
Unfortunetely, this time, I don't have arguments to attack directly Teresa, I build my arguments on facts and logic, and there ain't facts to support Galatea on this one.
I can't deny that Teresa was stronger.

• When I read chapter 64, I see two big time skips after Rafaela is wounded:
  • Time skip after she is stripped of her number, to heal and make a scar without using Yoki. She happens then to pass by a town where the MiB abducted twins. Seems a bit too convenient that twins would be born just in the nearest town just as the org loses their previous sister couple, so I posit that this town is elsewhere and the time is way later.
  • Following that, the second timeskip is after Rafaela hears about the twins, and she decides to go and check the org about that. Teresa's handler is genuinely surprised to see her there, which indicates to me that she is supposed to be elsewhere, far. If she had been recently in org HQ, his shock is a bit overdone.

I'm feeling that I'll have to interpret chapter 64 again.

First of all, where she meets Rubel. That's the Org's base, where Luciella's experiment was conducted.
She was resting and had a bandage on her left eye. If we can suggest a time span based on that and on the previous facts (Luciella awakening and running wild on the experiment), the time span more likely seems to fit under a few days to a few weeks at maximum.
Raphaella still resting and with first aid bandages support this thinking. There Rubel tells her the Org's status and their decisions, where she is stripped of her number.

Ok first hypothesis of time skip:

Claymores have accelerated regeneration rates, even at normal states, without using yoki (not limited to defensive types). The time to heal and make a scar like Raphaella's wouldn't be so long.
Clare slept for a week, and her arm had already healed, so Irene had to make a fresh wound on Clare in order to give Clare her own arm.
So the time span to heal is about days, weeks at most. No big time skip here. Maybe just taking out that bandage Raphaella's wound could appear already healed without problems.

She happens to pass by a town where she hears that the Zema twins were negociated.
Important: Raphaella realizes that the Org still continues their project to achieve the perfect warrior. In other words, their experiences with the Soul Link.
Convenient or not, the Organization doesn't care, as long as they find their material to continue the experiments. Be it in the closest town or anywhere else.
Around all possibilities in this search for human material, the convenient possibility of the Org finding the desired material on the closest town is the most desirable of all.
Looking for material in somewhere else just because it seems too convenient to find on the nearest town (when this would actually be the most practical thing) is illogical and it's a twisted thinking.

[Second point]

The orders Raphaella received were to just stay as someone dead, her name would be erased from the Org and don't stand out too much.
They basically banned Raphaella for an indeterminated time. Besides her second order and Rubel's honest advice, to don't stand out too much, Raphaella doesn't strike us as the kind of investigative character, like Miria who fulfills this space.
Raphaella doesn't want to solve the Organization's mystery, Raphaella only has her sister Luciella in her mind, and all the sorrow and blame related to her actions.
Even knowing the bad side of the Org, Raphaella would even (as she proved) join forces with them as long as she can complete her goals.
Go back to check the Org about that? Nothing to support that and prove that the city where she previously was, and where she heard about the twins, wasn't the closest town of the Org's base, as she reflected after meeting with Teresa.
If Raphaella really had business with the Org, I can't see why it would be omitted.

That leads to the other important point after she meets Teresa, where she reflects about the dangerous forest where she goes to wash her face, that even though it's next to the closest town of the Org (where she previously where, few panels back), it was a place where wild animals and yomas roamed.
Anyone would be surprised to find Raphaella in that forest for various reasons, like 1) it's possibly not her assigned area; 2) it's Raphaella the responsible for the great destruction on the Org's base, what is she doing here like that? (MiB's have ranks, so the handlers of trainees probably don't know the decisions of the supreme council); 3) It's Raphaella, the number #2[!]; or all this options summed.
It's not surprising to see the handler surprised with Raphaella there.
The Org is or seems to be an enormous place, and MiB's have their own problems to be concerned, specially in a crisis scenario. His reaction is not overdone.

• A MiB talks about half the trainees killed, so the incident is known by everyone, and given how curious Teresa is, she should have recognized Rafaela, yet she doesn't. Could be an indication that she was recruited well after the disaster, when people don't even talk about it

Those MiB's where probably the ones in charge for this Soul link attempt (the one with the baldy or shaved head is also responsible for Alicia) and they know informations that probably others don't.
The incident was very known because it was conducted on the Org's HQ and it caused great destruction and warriors' loss to the Org.
Teresa is not obligated to recognize Raphaella, she probably never saw Raphaella, even though she might have heard about her.
Following this logic reasoning, Teresa could be placed as a potential survivor among the trainees, or a really recent trainee.
After such crisis, when they are low on manpower, they obviously would need new people to join them.

• I also think that considering what Rubul says to Rafaela, she had been suppressing her own Yoki ever since she and Luciela started the soul-link experiment. If you can argue that Galatea in Rabona somehow managed to fight Miata while still being able to be or quickly become again invisible to the Yoki radar, you cannot argue that Rafaela did anything that would break Yoki-suppressing. (Actually, even if you admit Galatea blew her yoki stealth cloaking, we have no indication that yoki alignment breaks suppression, and we have proof that a claymore can do subtle things with her Yoki while staying cloaked - no you cannot argue that a normal human can leap buildings, twist his arm, use bunshin or windcutter)
  

It's stated on the databooks that suppression is a needed step on the Soul Link process.
But probably not the same continously suppression that completely erases auras. Sould Link is based on yoki alignment, and yoki alignment itself do require yoki releasing or yoki suppression.
While we don't know the yoki rate of the responsible for the control on the last step (the releaser is a complete yoki release, 100%), we know the yoki rate of Galatea's manipulation, that is the closest thing to the Soul Link.
Galatea's manipulation is around 12% to 42%, while the yoki rate of the suppression ability found on Priscilla or Raphaella is around 3% to 0% or something really close to it.
The Soul Link may involve different or possibly lower rates since it's about a perfect alignment and mechanics could play a little more differently, but it's yoki alignment which requires yoki release anyway.
The best we can get with this is that Soul Link indeed hone suppression abilities, since it's needed on the most delicate step of the Soul Link process.

More informations here (if you haven't read yet, it's a good read for you), in this section of the databook III you will even find the so intangible yoki being illustrated and conceptualized on the most important steps.

And I can't argue that Galatea was still under suppression cloaking, Anima stated why, and neither do I want to argue against this.
I follow the rules of the Claymoreverse, even though this is a shonen manga and these rules might be broken sometimes.

Riful wasn't really using suppression. I mean, Everyone in the ghost 7, even Yuma, could read what was going on with Riful, yet even Tabitha could not sense the Fab4 at all when they were out of sight.

Riful does use methods of yoki cloaking or suppressing, her level at this can be debatable, but was enough to fool Clare who is or should be skilled at this subject. Clare only saw through Riful's disguise when she was very close to her, where is supposedly easier to sense.
It only didn't pass by the sharp senses of Galatea and Alicia, that sensed Riful's real power from far away.

It seems that Riful wasn't trying to really cloak her power like she did 7 yers ago.
Audrey described that what they were all feeling, was an outer layer of energy, a layer of a normal awakened being, beyond that was her real overwhelming power.
Admittedly, Riful rather prefered that they could sense her power right away, using that as a test to know how good they were at yoki sensing.
It's not only possible but probable that Tabitha and others could have sensed that right away looking at how they described the huge energy moving very fast, even being Clare who recognized Riful's energy.

But it's funny, because when our heroes were returning, Cynthia seemed to feel everyone when they were close.
And to even out the suppression pills vs normal suppression ability, Tabitha also couldn't feel the auras of the other four Claymores (Audrey, Rachel and the other two) when they took suppressants.

Anyway, this has nothing to do with supressing Yoki. To take an analogy, in a swordfight, you can see you opponent, and also his blade, with your eyes, but it doesn't mean you notice everything he hits or everything he does, especially if you're focused on what's a threat to you... Who cares if he cuts a flower next to you just as you parried a fatal blow and are trying to do a backward flip to get a breather? Same thing happens with Galatea, in my opinion, having a keen vision is not synonymous with seeing everything.

You're basically saying that she was distracted. See pages 25 to 30 of chapters 75 again and tell me that she was distracted. Not only she avoids Miata of cutting off her head but she manipulates Agatha (see databook II-2, B-3 to know the control/complexity in yoki manipulation). She would be already dead if she were so distracted (Teresa?) by the end of these pages, she would not only lose one arm.
Not only because of that, I don't consider this, when you rely only on senses, there is no way you're not aware of what is around that continously produces yoki. Especially because in this method, concentration and lack of distraction are the keys.
Even Riful that had all her attention on Audrey and Rachel noticed how weird it was for the two auras of the other Claymores disappear, that's how she noticed the 4.
In Galatea's case, there shouldn't be this margin of errors, she doesn't rely on vision, she senses things, and with that she is pretty aware of what is around, specially what is around her and is composed of yoki.
What Galatea relies now is often called her "vision", but seeing things and sensing things are different. She doesn't see, she senses. That's much wider, advanced and trustable.

She was a bit distracted, like I said before, so she cannot possibly see everything, but "just regained consciousness" is a bit stretching things: The seven ghosts don't teleport, especially Yuma, so they were on the move and in Galatea's range well before she lost consciousness, arguable before Agatha even appeared, depending on if you want her to have a way wider range than anyone in the ghosts. Also, she was conscious to watch Clarice attack, make a speech, scold Miata, cry then Agatha make a speech, attack and get her attack parried before she noticed something was amiss... That's not "just" regaining consciousness.

And how many minutes, if not seconds do you think have passed while all these actions happened?
You can wait hours to simply turn one page, but the chain of events is happening quickly in the story.
I still stick with my "she just regained consciousness".

But anyway I just think she was distracted at the time. Spidey flashes are for non-subtle yoki use, and even Teresa could be taken by surprise, when she stopped being focused. Besides, it's good PR for the ghosts to make a grand entrance like that, Galatea would have stolen their thunder if she had sensed them before, and they are the heroes, while Galatea is a support character. IMHO, 50% of Claymore happens that way because it looks cooler, no real need to rationalize.

Distraction shouldn't exist on this method as I said.
Irene explained that what Teresa (or Clare or Galatea) senses to predict her enemy movements is exactly the subtle yoki flow, the yoki sent to the Claymore's body when she moves.
It's not necessary for them to release incremental yoki in order to Teresa or any preemptive-sensor sense them.
I agree that, Galatea would have stolen their thunder if she felt them beforehand, and as you pointed, that's how it happens on most shonen mangas.
Awesomeness is always above rational reasons.

It's just that I have the tendency to like support characters (others than main characters) and use rational thinking most of the time.
And even for a support character (I'm still not sure whether Galatea fits on support characters or other category), Galatea is pretty awesome herself.
I still believe that she has more to contribute for the story.
And actually, Galatea already demonstrated further meaning on this series.

Originally Posted by Mord

Some further support that Rafaela's meeting with Teresa wasn't recently after having left the organization.

When the villagers were talking about the Zemas, they said that they had recently had twins. That would suggest that twins were still very young, probably not even a year old as the organization would want to insure that they had as little personality as possible. However during Rafaela's meeting with Teresa, she asks her if she had a sister. Why would she ask someone who appears to be roughly 10-12 is she had a sister if the twins were just taken?

Ok, they had them recently according to the villagers and it's supported by the databooks and the Organization itself that the sisters or twins would have to be taken from an infant phase.
But the main thing, Raphaella's main conclusion is that the Org was still continuing their projects involving siblings. She figured that the Org was looking for human material, for whoever may fit in their criteria.
That's the point and that's what this is all about, it's not about the Zemas. It's about on what they are involved.
Raphaella asked Teresa if she had a sister, not if her last name was Zema, and praised her luck for not having one and potentially passing by everything that she had been through.
There is no reason to necessarily and specifically connect Raphaella's question to the Zemas, when actually she was very objective with her question: "Do you...have a sister?".

Raphaella clearly asks the handler if Teresa often ran away from her training to come to this town, refering to the town that she had just gone out, where she previously was passing by and heard about the Zemas, the closest town from the Org.

Circumstances indicate that there wasn't enough time for Raphaella to completely erase her aura.
Trying to find non-existent time skips from panel to panel when the only and clear time skip is the one where Rubel informs Raphaella that Teresa have died, seems more like an effort of imagination.

End of discussion, Teresa's army?

[Fenrir_valindri]

So the fact Miria completely beats both Noel and Sophia as far as techniques is worthless? Miria has an A+ agilty, and her phantom technique, while Noel has....her A+ in agility, and half-awakening improved Yoki quality, and the ease of use for certain abilities, not other stats, so Miria still beats both Noel and Sophia on Yoki.

And Noel and Sophia's sensing is about as useful to them in a fight as it is for anyone without Clare/Teresa/Galatea's abilities, it isn't.

Miria's leadership would be more useful in a vast majority of situations, the Rigaldo situation was bad, but I doubt Noel and Sophia's superior sensing would have helped them there either.

If you want an easy stat comparison:

Noel: 3 B, 1 A+, 2 C
Sophia: 4 B, 1 A+, 1 C
Miria: 1 B, 1 B+, 2 A+, 2 C

Noel has 1 C, 1 B and 1 A+ in her combat stats, no special techniques.
Sophia has 1 C, 1 B and 1 A+ in her combat stats, no special techniques.
Miria has 1 C, 1 B+, and 1 A+ in her combat stats, with the Phantom special technique. (Which is very powerful)

They have equal mental all around
Sophia a Noel is the best sensors by 1 grade, no pre-emptive though.
Miria is the best leader by 1 grade and a + over Sophia and 2 whole grades and a + over Noel.

So Noel is only superior in sensing, so she is clearly defeated, and she used to be # 4, Ophelia's rank. (who beats them both silly)
Sophia is tougher, but Miria beats her out in both combat and as a leader, while Sophia, like Noel, beats her on sensing.

So Noel gets 1 point versus Miria.
As does Sophia, both through sensing.
But Miria beats them in in technique, Yoki, and leadership, and they tie on str/agi, as their str/agi cancel each other's out..

So yes, I believe Miria is the superior warrior.

Although Ophelia beats them all down quite badly, at least in the combat section.

----------------------

As for Irene not trying to kill Ophelia, how do we know that? Irene even said "despite the injuries I gave her, she managed to get away."

Edit: Fate Archer, as always, says some good stuff.

[Valmont]

Okay...

Spoiler for Chapter 77:

I've checked it out, I have no clue what's going on in the dialogue (obviously) but it seems Miata was defeated, the same goes for Galatea and whoa Miata can heal extremely fast and she's probably not even a defensive type. Anyways the arrival of Clare, Miria and the others was well done. Definitely a badass entrance. But oh man, I can't wait for it to be translated and I can't wait even more for the next chapter.

[[thousandmaster]]

Originally Posted by Valmont

Okay...

Spoiler for Chapter 77:

I've checked it out, I have no clue what's going on in the dialogue (obviously) but it seems Miata was defeated, the same goes for Galatea and whoa Miata can heal extremely fast and she's probably not even a defensive type. Anyways the arrival of Clare, Miria and the others was well done. Definitely a badass entrance. But oh man, I can't wait for it to be translated and I can't wait even more for the next chapter.

Oh gawd... what's up this fab 7 always 'saving the day' thing. It's gettin' pretty old. I want to see someone beside them for once. I'm not being mean or anything here. Maybe someone like Riful or Isley showing up and taking care of this AB. u.u

[mycen]

Originally Posted by [thousandmaster]

Oh gawd... what's up this fab 7 always 'saving the day' thing. It's gettin' pretty old. I want to see someone beside them for once. I'm not being mean or anything here. Maybe someone like Riful or Isley showing up and taking care of this AB. u.u

Riful maybe because she is after Galatea as well but why would Isley care? If Isley does come, then we would have a merry Clare, Raki and Priscilla gathering all in Rabona, where it all started for Clare. Sounds nice no?

[[thousandmaster]]

Riful would have been a better choice, yes cuz she's in the process of recruiting at the moment. lol I mentioned Isley because it's part of his area now, isn't it? I'm not sure, maybe some claymore guru correct me here on this. >.>

[zato_1one]

Nah... I don't think Flar means Galatea is distracted but he means Galatea didn't care. I also agree as I've already stated this in chapter 76 thread. At that point she only cares for herself to dodge/parry attack from both Agatha and Miata. And as you've already stated. The battle in manga may quick like hell. I can see Miata insanely rush toward Galatea every time. So it's not that unbelievable for Galatea to not know about Miata condition until Miata starts to feel her pain and weaken her attack. IMO

Irene doesn't intend to kill Ophelia. She just deals damage to Ophelia to more than Clare so that she can't move and can't make any trouble. That's how I feel from reading/watching the manga/anime.

And I think that Miata doesn't cry because she knows that Clarice fear her. I think she cries because Clarice scolds her. She's frightened just like any normal child. Pretty lovely isn't she?

Originally Posted by [thousandmaster]

Oh gawd... what's up this fab 7 always 'saving the day' thing. It's gettin' pretty old. I want to see someone beside them for once. I'm not being mean or anything here. Maybe someone like Riful or Isley showing up and taking care of this AB. u.u

But it's still pretty cool! right? At least it has a purpose and still makes sense (Rabona is in the west and the previous chapter the 7 ghosts had encountered with Riful so it means they're already in the west) so I really don't mind that much.

First: Help AB hunting team in the north -> To introduce 7 ghosts.
Second: Help No.3,4 from Riful -> To receive information in this past 7 years from Riful.
Third: Help Rabona -> To show 7 ghosts strength and also (I think) the information from Galatea.

[[thousandmaster]]

If you go to wikipedia and look up clare in the claymore page, it'll say "Currently she entered Rabona with her comrades and has cut off part of Agatha's body, saving Galatea, Clarice and Miata in the process." Interesting...

[zato_1one]

About 7 ghosts vs Agatha, I hope that it won't go too easy. Agatha is at least former No.2 She should has some tricks when she got serious.

PS. I don't think that Agatha's leg is cut. It only has some cracks from Clare's attack. IMO

[Mikke]

Wow.... Now this seems like a plan by the org to draw in the fab 7 and have alica
wipe them all out.... Man, rubel is probably laughing his ass off, watching all this happen.

Then again, it might be an attempt to test their strength and have them useful for a while.

[Alleluia_Cone]

Do those on this forum feel that Clare is essentially a stronger and more complete fighter than Galatea at this juncture of the story?

It is hard to get a read on this, if for nothing else, than because when Clare starts losing she usually partially awakens, which skews her power level in relation to others. Still, I have to assume that Rigardo is at least the equal of Agatha, and she did in fact defeat him singlehandedly (albeit, nearly at the cost of her life and sanity).

Taken together, the combination of her ability to suppress her Yoki, the Quick Sword and Windcutter techniques, as well as her Yoki sensing expertise (and if all else fails, her half-awakening deal), she would seem to be more formidable than Galatea based on what we have seen of the latter in her fight with Miata/Agatha, unless she is hiding some previously unseen power.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Well we really haven't seen Clare fight anyone but Miria so far, and they were around equal in their match.

Assuming no Yoki, I suspect Agatha will give them trouble, but I do expect them to win.

Remember that not using Yoki cuts her off from the Flash-Sword, but she can use the Windcutter now.

I do believe that Clare/Miria are at, if not slightly above, Galatea's level now, but it really is hard to tell at this point.

I still disagee over the point of Irene just trying to injure Ophelia, the way Irene phrased it "she is still alive, despite being injured to that extent" makes it sound like Irene really tried to finish her off, but Ophelia managed to get away, albeit injured enough to awaken.

Speaking of Galatea, do people really want Riful to get her tentacles on her? Cause everyone seems to seriously want that, speaking about wanting Riful to show up. There would be no "saving the day" if Riful showed up, Rabona would be screwed, Galatea would be screwed, and Miata would be screwed.

I also see no reason for Isley to show up at this point, other then Raphaela, the 7 Ghosts were the only real viable option for a save.

I still wish it was Raphaela though. >.<

[Flar]

Originally Posted by Fate_Archer

If it didn't matter, you wouldn't bother.

It doesn't matter because Teresa is dead and buried so not only "who would be the strongest" is fanboy wanking, but it will never be relevant to the story whatsoever. I bother because I see other ways to interpret what you use as proof, and in all honesty the analysis is much more fun than the subject.

Looking for material in somewhere else just because it seems too convenient to find on the nearest town (when this would actually be the most practical thing) is illogical and it's a twisted thinking.

So, you mean that if I want to kidnap twins suddenly, like right now, I should just go to the nearest village and they will have at least two recently born just for my convenience? If the Alicia experiment fails, then the org will just go shopping in that neighboring village, and the next generation of Claymore of mass destruction should have been born for their convenience too, just at this time? How is this even remotely believable?

Go back to check the Org about that? Nothing to support that and prove that the city where she previously was, and where she heard about the twins, wasn't the closest town of the Org's base, as she reflected after meeting with Teresa. [...]the closest town of the Org (where she previously where, few panels back), it was a place where wild animals and yomas roamed.

Nothing supporting that it is that town either, considering the flashback style of that chapter. "It's obvious" isn't proof, it's just your interpretation, assumption even, we see her in a town, then in a forest near the org, I see nothing to support there wasn't a jump, tarantino style.

If Raphaella really had business with the Org, I can't see why it would be omitted.

Oh yeah, because we saw Miria investigating the org, eh?


for the rest:

possibly [...] probably [...] seems [...] probably [...] probably [...] probably [...] might have [...] could ...

Seems to me you're making a lot of supposition. That's fine I am too, but then you'll excuse me if I consider that a set of assumption different from yours can be valid

It's stated on the databooks that suppression is a needed step on the Soul Link process.
But probably not the same continously suppression that completely erases auras. Sould Link is based on yoki alignment, and yoki alignment itself do require yoki releasing or yoki suppression.
While we don't know the yoki rate of the responsible for the control on the last step (the releaser is a complete yoki release, 100%), we know the yoki rate of Galatea's manipulation, that is the closest thing to the Soul Link.

Yeah, probably, or perhaps not. Windcutter is the closest thing to Quicksword, after all, and a suppression that is not suppression sounds like the twisted thinking you were talking about earlier.

Riful does use methods of yoki cloaking or suppressing, her level at this can be debatable, but was enough to fool Clare who is or should be skilled at this subject. Clare only saw through Riful's disguise when she was very close to her, where is supposedly easier to sense.

Supposedly. Who does that supposing? If I recall correctly, Clare sensed because Galatea told her to watch more closely. Not because she could not do it because of something Riful did.

It seems that Riful wasn't trying to really cloak her power like she did 7 yers ago.

Heh? It seems to me she did it exactly the same, she even told Audrey that 7 years ago, some Claymores saw through her when she and Rachel failed to notice anything.

But it's funny, because when our heroes were returning, Cynthia seemed to feel everyone when they were close.
And to even out the suppression pills vs normal suppression ability, Tabitha also couldn't feel the auras of the other four Claymores (Audrey, Rachel and the other two) when they took suppressants.

Well, Cynthia isn't deaf or blind, was facing the direction the Fab4 came from and noticed them a few seconds before they arrived. Gee, I wonder how she could have known...

As for the effect of pills versus supression, that Tabitha can't see through either of them says nothing except that she is not at Galatea's level of sensing, so it's totally irrelevant in determining these techniques comparative efficiency.

You're basically saying that she was distracted. See pages 25 to 30 of chapters 75 again and tell me that she was distracted. Not only she avoids Miata of cutting off her head but she manipulates Agatha (see databook II-2, B-3 to know the control/complexity in yoki manipulation). She would be already dead if she were so distracted [...]
Even Riful that had all her attention on Audrey and Rachel noticed how weird it was for the two auras of the other Claymores disappear, that's how she noticed the 4.
In Galatea's case, there shouldn't be this margin of errors, she doesn't rely on vision, she senses things, and with that she is pretty aware of what is around, specially what is around her and is composed of yoki.
What Galatea relies now is often called her "vision", but seeing things and sensing things are different. She doesn't see, she senses. That's much wider, advanced and trustable.

Sorry but that's another wild assumption. Any normal swordsfighter will also be aware of his surroundings in order to stay alive, but that doesn't mean he wastes energy to pay attention to meaningless details while staying alive is the priority, and that doesn't mean either that he cannot be blindsided. Indeed that manipulation is that complex can even more justify that she focused more on it and essential things and less on irrelevant details.

And how many minutes, if not seconds do you think have passed while all these actions happened?

And how many less did she spend unconscious, then? I'm sorry, but if I go with the omniscient Galatea, due to her hax yoki sensing, and further argue that she can indeed sense the ghosts if she isn't unconscious, then that means the ghosts covered all the way inside her range to Agatha in what, 10 seconds? Are you saying that Galatea's range is minuscule or that the Ghosts can teleport, here?

[chibamonster]

Wow, well I finally found a Japanese raw. The chapter was even better than I first thought it was. Miata and Clarice's connection was superb. I didn't realize that Miata was actually pulling Agatha's entire body and tearing away her tentacles before she lost her hands. Agatha was even surprised by how powerful the little girl was. It was like Kratos from God of War strength there. I could totally hear the minotaur battle music going on in my head . It was moving to see Miata begging Clarice to run away and to not die while she stayed behind to make her escape possible. Then the expression of Miata taking a huge deep breath when she stood up and Agatha layed her out with a few more impalements. Wow.

Clarice being a claymore who doesn't want to die in the face of battle is also an attribute we haven't seen much. It defintely would make Miata's strength even more terrifying to her. Other claymores have been scared, like the one who dropped their sword when Rigard's onslaught started but usually they seem to tough it out. Helen tried to attack the 6 armed awakened but upon realizing that she couldn't even move she was faced with despair. They definitely get scared but Clarice is the first one I can think of who panicked to this extent and turned on her heels. I am curious what Clarice's background is. Clarice seemed pissed when she attacked Agatha. She did better than I thought she would.

[Mikke]

Originally Posted by Alleluia_Cone

Do those on this forum feel that Clare is essentially a stronger and more complete fighter than Galatea at this juncture of the story?

No, I wouldn't jump to that conclusion because Galatea was being distracted by Miata and was also concerned about the welfare of the city, which probably threw her off guard as well.

It is a bit irrelevant now since you asked about her current condition, but her eyesight is a handicap; No matter how much her yoki perception has developed she will be in trouble if she exhausts any of those new abilities. For example, if she encounters an enemy with an overwhelming radiation of yoki which flow she wouldn't be able to read then it's game over for all intents and purpuses.

If to put her against Clare then I'd say that her pre-emptive skills are far superior.
Since she is capable of sensing both long range and short range events, utilizing all that info in combat and of course, manipulate the yoki of her enemy while Clare's any real advantage over all that is Irene's arm.

[Fenrir_valindri]

The power of sheer desperation can be an amazing thing.

I'm glad Chibi is as pleased with Miata's determination as I was :P

------

As for supressing, but still using Yoki.

Supression doesn't always mean 0% Yoki, it just means they are trying to lower the level of Yoki their body emits.

So Soul-linking could well require Yoki and the "anchor" of the two sisters would have to use Yoki for the link, but supress it in all other circumstances, so her focus would be 100% on that link, and nothing else.

So it does make sense that Raphaela would still have an aura from the soul-link experiments, but would later completely eliminate her aura.

[stringer13]

Originally Posted by cors8

IIRC, Irene wasn't actually trying to kill Ophelia. I have no doubt she would've done so easily if she wanted to.

That's true. It's not Ophelia was in any situation to run away with all those wounds. ANd when we saw her a week later, she was crawling.

[stringer13]

Originally Posted by [thousandmaster]

If you go to wikipedia and look up clare in the claymore page, it'll say "Currently she entered Rabona with her comrades and has cut off part of Agatha's body, saving Galatea, Clarice and Miata in the process." Interesting...

To be completly truthful I wrote that. I have an acount and since nobody updates on Claymore I thought I would.

[Fenrir_valindri]

It is very plausible that she used Yoki to give her self a boost and escape, we have seen seriously injured warriors do some amazing feats while injured, then collapse from injury a few moments later.

Clare herself fell unconcious as soon as Irene showed up, but she was still running around desperately trying to survive up till that point.