(L) Gilgamesh Discussion

[eXistenZ]

even tho i said i was gonna have to think, i dont think one bit of the story should be changed or added too. Very NGE-ish as i said but it differed from NGE in that instead of escaping into the world of the mind and heart it went straight to the matter.

the countess chose cleaninsing of the world, what she wanted in her heart. thats were it also diferentiates between NGE, NGE more importantly shinji choose the world of hate and ego and love and seperation and seeking, the countess chose a fresh start without these things, without the humanity that we all know. Tho it did leave what ifs in the mind, it left fulfillment for me.

This series goes onto my Favorites of all time.
NGE
Ghost In The Shell
Akira
Gilgamesh
Saikano
Macross Plus
Noir
Gunslinger Girl
Lain
Last Exile
Haibane Renmie
Initial D
Witch Hunter Robin
Peace Maker Kurogane(even tho one more episode to go.)
Naruto as well coz well i like the story
Full Metal Alchemist
Macross Zero

[Tofusensei]

"For instance, what exactly was Gilgamesh and more importantly, why did the countess say in an earlier episode that Gilgamesh is time?"

When was that said, exactly? I edited all 26 eps of the show and I don't remember that line... Makes me think either I was oblivious or there was a translation error somewhere?

-Tofu

[wsheit]

Originally Posted by Tofusensei

"For instance, what exactly was Gilgamesh and more importantly, why did the countess say in an earlier episode that Gilgamesh is time?"

When was that said, exactly? I edited all 26 eps of the show and I don't remember that line... Makes me think either I was oblivious or there was a translation error somewhere?

-Tofu

I remember it quite clearly- it was somewhere back around episode 7-9
She said that Gilgamesh was not a person or thing but instead, time.

Maybe I'm crazy, but if so then I've been crazy for a long time- i had been waiting for a response to that comment

[Tofusensei]

Originally Posted by wsheit

I remember it quite clearly- it was somewhere back around episode 7-9
She said that Gilgamesh was not a person or thing but instead, time.

Maybe I'm crazy, but if so then I've been crazy for a long time- i had been waiting for a response to that comment

Hmm... I really don't know... I wish you knew where exactly it was, then I could tell you if she really said that or not so you won't have to go on wondering, hehe

-Tofu

[kanazuchi]

damnit, I need to get this series out of my head! Tis making me think way too much...

[Ledgem]

I don't recall hearing a line that Gilgamesh was time, either... at first I thought maybe it was difference in trans versions between L-E and AF-F but Tofu says he doesn't remember it either.

Spoiler:

Finding out that Tear was actually linked to the Countess was pretty... revelation-like? Though it's still a bit difficult to really feel that it was HER fault. More like, now we know that the little fairy called Tear was responsible for everything, and not "Enkidu." The deaths of everyone at the end is a bit of a stereotypical type of end for this type of anime, but recently every series I've watched had characters all surviving, so it was somewhat emotional. Had my roommate not been around, I might have shed a few tears ^_~ (oh ho ho, good pun eh?)

As for the very end... I guess it could have been Kiyoko's child. I mean, Kiyoko looked EXACTLY like her mother to me, and they weren't clones. It's difficult to tell, though. Considering that Kiyoko drifted to that weird place when she was between death and life, I'd be cautious about saying that it was a place on Earth at all. But then again, she was seen floating away with Tatsuya, and the shell-thing WAS still there, indicating the physical realm... hard to say.

By the way, someone made a reference to Tear being God, I found that interesting. I wouldn't really make it myself, and I don't think Tear was intended to represent God, but it's interesting nontheless.

Actually, while I have this post here:

Spoiler:

Anyone have any idea what it was that Tear said to Kiyoko/Kiyoko's child that set her off? I re-watched that segment and noticed that she emerges naked so it'd make sense that it was her child, though she seems adult-like already... but Tear says something, and then Kiyoko(?)'s eyes widen and it sets her off.

[Eolair]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

Spoiler:

Anyone have any idea what it was that Tear said to Kiyoko/Kiyoko's child that set her off? I re-watched that segment and noticed that she emerges naked so it'd make sense that it was her child, though she seems adult-like already... but Tear says something, and then Kiyoko(?)'s eyes widen and it sets her off.

Spoiler:

I was wondering about this too. It seems clear to me that Kiyoko/Kiyoko's child reacts to whatever Tear says: The widening of her eyes and the immediate use of the tuning fork. If it's really Kiyoko's newborn child and not Kiyoko she wouldn't have any knowledge of language or any memories so she would probably not react at all to Tear's words. They would be completely meaningless to her. But if it's Kiyoko or possibly her child with some of Kiyoko's memories intact then it would make more sense.

It's very hard to guess what Tear says though. From the animation it seems like it's 3 syllables. Maybe Tear simply says "Ki-yo-ko" slowly? (I can really picture that in my mind) But that only fits if it really is Kiyoko and not Kiyoko's child.

Kiyoko/Kiyoko's child seems very calm before she hears Tear's words. If we assume that it's Kiyoko maybe she doesn't remember who she is up to that point. But when Tear says "Ki-yo-ko" she suddenly remembers and lashes out in anger and retribution. In that momemt her tuning fork becomes her final tool of revenge.

If anyone else have any ideas about what Tear is saying it would be great.

[dreamless]

By the way, someone made a reference to Tear being God, I found that interesting. I wouldn't really make it myself, and I don't think Tear was intended to represent God, but it's interesting nontheless.

Actually I was not thinking about the Judo-Christian God when I said that TEAR being God. I mean, Gilgamesh was half-man half-god, so TEAR should be full-god. But then it's TEAR's will for the re-evolution of the world, and the root of the Cleansing Flood, so I guess you could say TEAR is somewhat like the Judo-Christian God...

[Green²]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

Spoiler:

Anyone have any idea what it was that Tear said to Kiyoko/Kiyoko's child that set her off? I re-watched that segment and noticed that she emerges naked so it'd make sense that it was her child, though she seems adult-like already... but Tear says something, and then Kiyoko(?)'s eyes widen and it sets her off.

Spoiler:

My guess is that TEAR said something about the new change in the world,.. probably relating to power or a desired change in TEAR's desired image of the world. But I guess that it was Kiyoko's child that had emerged, and with it a trait of a half human, half Gilgamesh. So all the human stuff such as lust and greed had surfaced. Thus taking TEAR's life for the desire of power.

But then again, I might be just making all of this stuff up as I try to search for these answers.

[dreamless]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

Actually, while I have this post here:

Spoiler:

Anyone have any idea what it was that Tear said to Kiyoko/Kiyoko's child that set her off? I re-watched that segment and noticed that she emerges naked so it'd make sense that it was her child, though she seems adult-like already... but Tear says something, and then Kiyoko(?)'s eyes widen and it sets her off.

Spoiler:

If Kiyoko's dream sequence when she drifted between life and death is of any indication, TEAR said something like "let's play"?

[Tofusensei]

Originally Posted by dreamless

Spoiler:

If Kiyoko's dream sequence when she drifted between life and death is of any indication, TEAR said something like "let's play"?

Actually, that matches her mouth movement in japanese perfectly. (which would be pronounced AH-SO-BO). I think you might be right.

-Tofu

[tsurumaru]

Hmm, yeah I loved the tuning fork ending.

A couple of points:

The epic of Gilgamesh is one of the worlds oldest stories, part of it deals with the theme of God sending a cleansing flood to wash away the evil of humanity and is very similar to the story of Noah's Ark (and yet written before it).

Spoiler:

I liked the way that the child that was a result of love (Kiyoko and Novem's) was victorious over the child that was a result of envy and jealousy (Tear & The Countesses heart).

I have a feeling that Kiyoko's child was still bound to Kiyoko's spirit in someway and that it therefore understood the selfish nature of TEAR and what it had enacted in the world (basically it "played" a big game with everyones lives).

That Reiko part was odd though, I thought (s)he had more power than the rest of them put together, so why didn't she fight?

[Ledgem]

Spoiler:

Why didn't Reiko fight? Fear, maybe. I'm sort of curious about why Fuu, Fujisaki, Tohru, Reiko, and Tatsuya lacked metamorphosis forms.

I thought about the ending segment some more, and I came to the conclusion that it is supposed to be the world. If you watch when Tatsuya talks to his father, he mentions that Kiyoko is dead, to which Terumichi replies something along the lines of "and that will be the start of a new humanity" - if he were referring to Kiyoko there, or Kiyoko reborn (since supposedly the fetus had begun to fuse with Kiyoko - this makes sense, as well, since Kiyoko's spirit was seen drifting away with Tatsuya's, meaning that yes, she was dead, and now she's left with her brother). Though the scene settings of the final scene represent that death-type place Kiyoko experienced, it is most likely Earth. For one, the caccoon-like encasing on Kiyoko was shown.

I think that the final scene is meant to be ironic. I mean, here you have the Gilgamesh group attempting to "purify" humanity, saying that humanity is unclean on the grounds that they're violent, among other things. Then, in the final scene, we have humanity reborn, but it's just as violent as previous humanity, if not more so (gauging from Kiyoko reborn/Kiyoko's child's expression of glee at the killing of Tear). I say irony, because it's obviously not the outcome expected by the Gilgamesh group, and it's obviously not the expected outcome of Tear (who was manipulating the Gilgamesh group as well), since we see Tear's eyes widen in surprise before she's killed.

Though the view that Novem and Kiyoko's child of love defeated a child born of jealousy (Tear) that someone mentioned above is a pretty neat notion as well.

[SketchyMcChips]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

Spoiler:

Why didn't Reiko fight? Fear, maybe. I'm sort of curious about why Fuu, Fujisaki, Tohru, Reiko, and Tatsuya lacked metamorphosis forms.

I thought about the ending segment some more, and I came to the conclusion that it is supposed to be the world. If you watch when Tatsuya talks to his father, he mentions that Kiyoko is dead, to which Terumichi replies something along the lines of "and that will be the start of a new humanity" - if he were referring to Kiyoko there, or Kiyoko reborn (since supposedly the fetus had begun to fuse with Kiyoko - this makes sense, as well, since Kiyoko's spirit was seen drifting away with Tatsuya's, meaning that yes, she was dead, and now she's left with her brother). Though the scene settings of the final scene represent that death-type place Kiyoko experienced, it is most likely Earth. For one, the caccoon-like encasing on Kiyoko was shown.

I think that the final scene is meant to be ironic. I mean, here you have the Gilgamesh group attempting to "purify" humanity, saying that humanity is unclean on the grounds that they're violent, among other things. Then, in the final scene, we have humanity reborn, but it's just as violent as previous humanity, if not more so (gauging from Kiyoko reborn/Kiyoko's child's expression of glee at the killing of Tear). I say irony, because it's obviously not the outcome expected by the Gilgamesh group, and it's obviously not the expected outcome of Tear (who was manipulating the Gilgamesh group as well), since we see Tear's eyes widen in surprise before she's killed.

Though the view that Novem and Kiyoko's child of love defeated a child born of jealousy (Tear) that someone mentioned above is a pretty neat notion as well.

Spoiler:

I think that Reiko didn't fight because he didn't understand what he was fighting for - though you could understand why he might be frightened by the metamorphosed gilgamesh.

Although the ending was a little short(considering all the fighting in the series isn't it a little convenient that everyone gets killed in a big final battle??) I did like the bleakness and uncertainty that the whole series seemed to convey.

There are so many angles to the ending, i think i'm still processing them all myself so i can't post too much more at the moment - i think it might be worthwhile watching again to see if i can make some more judgements on it

[FromageTheDog]

Originally Posted by dreamless

For starter, I think we can try to discuss some specific questions about the ending that we feel some difficulty understanding... like,

Spoiler:

why Reiko had that awesome power to kill all Gilgamesh instantly...

Spoiler:

Mere speculation, but my guess would be that her template (the old man; and BTW, is that right? Reiko's really a guy? Or did I miss the joke?), having funded most of the research from the very beginning, had her tweaked in vitro with whatever knowledge they were able to come up with to that point. I'd say it was pretty well established earlier on that she (he? Reiko, anyway) was one of the dramatically more powerful examples of a dynamis-user.

What I wonder is, what's the point of the Gilgamesh-lings at all? Other than to destroy Turangarila [sp], they didn't seem to serve much purpose other than for the cool factor. Everyone seemed just about powerless to do anything about the sky falling (I love that imagery, by the way), so other than to facilitate stuff blowing up and the occasional visits from the Brat police, they seem contrived.

Originally Posted by dreamless

Oh, and I think that

Spoiler:

killing TEAR/God with a tuning fork scene at the very end

is absolutely fantastic

Spoiler:

...Yeah, but there's that disturbing little laugh at the end which makes it all end on a rather discordant note...

Thanks for a considered response to my admittedly unfair initial outburst...

- Fromage

[naantje]

let me be the first to say, that ending fucking sucked.. i dont CARE how much biblical thingies there are and how "deep" it actually is.. they absolutely ruined it in the last 2 eps.. i mean " hey i dunno how i want to story to progress, oh wait lets just kill everyone and leave tons of "wakaranai's(sp)" in the story"


BLEH

[kanazuchi]

I thought the ending was awesome, but I hated it at the same time. If that gets me down, I wonder what Saikano'g gonna do to me when I get around to watching it...

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by naantje

let me be the first to say, that ending fucking sucked.. i dont CARE how much biblical thingies there are and how "deep" it actually is..

Differences of opinion, I suppose. Some people like their anime to be completely laid out, everything explained, totally clear. Others like trifling through symbolism and trying to fill in the holes themselves. At the least, it does lead to some interesting conversations that would otherwise just be idle commentary.

Yes, episode 26 was a rush, but I didn't feel like it felt forced or rushed at all. Despite how screwed up it is, I think it's one of the most beautifully done anime episodes I've ever seen, and I must have rewatched it some three or four times now.

[tkcom]

Despite the poor graphic (the reason why many turned down this at the very beginning), the only thing I can say about it is: BLOODY BRILLIANT! and I'm glad I did put my faith on it when it was first released and stick to it to the very end.

BRAVO!

[Grifis]

Spoiler:

First I thought TEAR was not a physical thing but more like a spirit thing since it looks like a shining light in a shape of a girl. Then you have Kiyoko's child stabbed 'her' with the tuning fork and blood came out. Hmmm....

Originally Posted by wsheit

I remember it quite clearly- it was somewhere back around episode 7-9
She said that Gilgamesh was not a person or thing but instead, time.

Maybe I'm crazy, but if so then I've been crazy for a long time- i had been waiting for a response to that comment

I remember something about Gilgamesh being 'matter' and 'anti-matter'??? o.O Not that I know what that means...

Grifis