Military, Authority & Decisions In MSLN series

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

My Chinese is Rusty but i really like to see the portion of the novel that contain the info on the rule. Could someone put up a scan or copy/paste it.

Certainly. Please click here. Sorry for the hasty work.

someone could have botch the translation and it is actually more of a guideline rather a set of rules.

in which case it would be more like "if you see a mage worth recuriting, do what you need to recurit that mage." leaving the actual interperation and implemention of guildline to the senior officer (in this case Lindy).

Frankly, there is no way to botch the translation enough to turn that text into your version. Even the guys who turned Darth Vader's "No" into "I don't want" can't screw it up that badly...

Originally Posted by Keroko

Ironically, Continuity B refuses the use of all available resources by directly contradicting S1 (even discounting the impressment issue, it blatantly alters events, that defines contradiction). Thus, Continuity B cannot posibly be the 'full use' of resources.

It is certainly "fuller" than Continuity A, which basically says to throw it out without even a salvage effort.

In contradiction terms, impressment is not the problem. The Ep10-13 stuff is. There are two ways to solve this, both of which will satisfy the "Maximal Data Retention" requirement. Basically, you can have the novel lead for that section, or the anime. Either way, you salvage everything salvageable from the "lagger".

I'm not throwing out the A's manga like Jimmy, because like I said, it does not contradict. It adds, but does not substract. Hence I still think it is part of continuity A. The novel, however, is a different story, it is more like a 'seperate continuity'.

That's a polite way to say "excision" generally. But at least you are keeping to your guns.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Certainly. Please click here. Sorry for the hasty work.



Frankly, there is no way to botch the translation enough to turn that text into your version. Even the guys who turned Darth Vader's "No" into "I don't want" can't screw it up that badly...

is there anything more in the novel regarding this rule?

Edit: better yet, why don't we find this guy's email and email him directly. He might even answer.

[Jimmy C]

Keroko, I'm not throwing out the A's manga either. It doesn't contradict the anime like the novel does, even witout the episode numbers.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Certainly. Please click here. Sorry for the hasty work.

You could have rotated it straight first. I managed to read it anyway. There was an interesting phrase. "Without Bureau approval such a powerful mage would not be allowed to stay on a non-magical world."
I would have been more impressed if they didn't mention Lindy had to push hard to get said approval in the next paragraph. That would have made it easier to get approval for Fate and Hayate and co. And I still have a low opinion on the Bureau requiring foreign mages to get their "approval" to stay where they will.
Still doesn't gain it admittance into Continuity A. And I still say shoehorning the novel in is unneccessary.

[Keroko]

It does, however, open perspectives. Perhaps the rule is such that powerfull mages are only required to be shipped off their respective unadministered worlds after they made contact with the TSAB, or became aware of magic through other contact (Lost Logia, dimensional criminals, etc.). This certainly counts for Nanoha and Graham.

And if permission is all that is required, it becomes a hell of a lot easier to explain.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

It is certainly "fuller" than Continuity A, which basically says to throw it out without even a salvage effort.

In contradiction terms, impressment is not the problem. The Ep10-13 stuff is. There are two ways to solve this, both of which will satisfy the "Maximal Data Retention" requirement. Basically, you can have the novel lead for that section, or the anime. Either way, you salvage everything salvageable from the "lagger".

In other words "throw away that which contradicts, and keep what doesn't"?

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

That's a polite way to say "excision" generally. But at least you are keeping to your guns.

To be honest, the more I learn of the novel, the more apealing salvaging is beginning to sound. There is lots of valuable data in there that does not contradict anything we'd be throwing away. I believe the colors of magic were a subject in the novel?

[Xellos-_^]

@arkhangelsk, any chance you can scan the entire novel

[Anh_Minh]

I think some of you guys are asking the wrong question. Without word of the authors, "which is canon and which isn't" is mostly a personal choice. There isn't a real right or wrong. The real question is "how compatible are the continuities".

If the rule is "If you see a mage on a NAW, hit first and ask questions after you've shipped them to the White Room", obviously it's incompatible with the anime.

If it's more sensible, like "Don't leave a mage without proper supervision. Proper supervision can be "living on Mid with one's parents, who are citizens of good standing", or "living under the care of a TSAB-managed institution"..." And so on. And the surveillance, even if somewhat distant, from a senior TSAB officer, who also happens to be a crack mage, would qualify as proper supervision.

That'd also mean that most NAW mages aren't so lucky. How many TSAB officers would be willing to make the sacrifice of staying on a backwater among barbarians who don't even believe in magic? Most officers would just move on... and that rule would forbid them from just leaving the mage alone. And once that person has been kidnapped... Press ganging makes sense, not just because they need the mage, but because they want to keep an eye on him, rather than just letting him loose in Mid to plot his revenge.

That Nanoha and the others are so strong means two things:
- the TSAB will be more likely to bend over backwards to keep them loyal
- the TSAB will be less likely to allow them to slip off their radar.

As for the Wolkies being criminal - that's true, but they're also relatively controllable, as long as Hayate is happy. And it's not like they're likely to have accidents - they're not untrained mages from a NAW, they're Belkan knights. So letting them live on Earth isn't that problematic.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

It would seem to me, that the TSAB would more leave mages they find alone UNLESS they cause a dimensional disturbance.

Mainly because of two things.

1 - The TSAB don't even NOTICE the mages to start with because they aren't triggering dimensional disturbances which attract attention. (Lindy didn't exactly come popping up to give Nanoha a magic talk the first time she picked up Raising Heart.)

2 - Mages not causing disturbances probably aren't weilding enough power to be a real threat on any scale anyway. Why mess with them? The world in question is not under TSAB Jurisdiction unless there's a dimensional disturbance to deal with... Or Lost Logia. (You don't need to go to every NAW and hunt down every person of magical potential because they need to be trained. You need only find the occaisional one that pops up with the potential to cause a whole lot of damage. And usually you use the dimensional disturbances as a homing beacon.)

I would say mainly it's more of a below the radar kind of thing.

If you're not causing a dimensional disturbance, you're either too weak, not using your power enough to be noticed, or in enough control that the TSAB doesn't NEED to interfere.

Basing on that. If you come across a generally good person/mage by homing in on the dimensional disturbance. You find out what's going on, explain the situation, and they'll probably be like 'Oh SHI- I almost did WHAT now?' Like Nanoha. And chances are, they'll cooperate because it's the right thing to do from a moral standpoint, and they'll probably even jump at the chance to check out the multiverse of mages rather than be stuck on their less adventurous home. But if they wan't to stay on their home. No pressure. At least now they're responsible enough. If there's some potential threat, you can always seal their power. But I would expect that most NAWs are more primitive in terms of tech than the TSAB, and most people would go for the chance to explore strange new worlds...

But if you get a potential troublemaker on some backwater world that's like the antithesis of Nanoha. (Essentially, a strong punk.) You go in, kick their ass, put a stop to the incident, and take the precautions you need. Like sealing their power or Jailing them as a dimensional threat. (Which is perfectly acceptable. If you explain the whole dimensional disturbance bit to them, and they STILL want to punk out... well, now they're a bonafide threat to multi-dimensional safety. It's not pressganging if they want to sit there and carelessly destroy half the universe just for shits and giggles.)

So put it down, not as a Godfather. "We're gonna make you an offa' ya can't refuse."

But mark it down more as: "Hey, check out all the cool stuff we have. Bet your world has nothing this cool. Join us and you get to mess with it all the time."

How often are people going to turn an opertunity like that down?

Less pressgang... more carrot on a stick.

[Anh_Minh]

I agree that as long as they cooperate, there's going to be a carrot, and no mention of the stick, proportionate to their power.

If they don't cooperate, OTOH, even if they're not hostile, the TSAB might think: "Why let them become a danger? Why let them be recruited by someone else?".

[Keroko]

You know... about the TSAB army, the more I look at it, the more I get the idea it is actually based on the Dutch army structure.

In terms of rank, it seems a perfect match. Dutch Air Forces have a Captain rank, which is equal to the Ground Force Captain rank, and below Luitenant Colonel (in fact, our Ground and Air Forces use an identical rank-base) Lieutenant-General is about as close to the top as you can get, surpassed only by the rank of General.

Also, there is another match. As we all know, the TSAB deploys a very lacks form of discipline (Lindy taking the time to talk and explain the situation to Nanoha, being diplomatic etc. etc.) this is very similar to the Dutch Millitairy, who negotiate first, hardly ever have the need to shoot.

Comments?

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

Keroko, I'm not throwing out the A's manga either. It doesn't contradict the anime like the novel does, even witout the episode numbers.

That's not what you were saying for awhile. But I'll let you claim emotional instability

You could have rotated it straight first. I managed to read it anyway.

That can't be hard, considering that at worse you'll just have to save the image and then rotate that in an image viewer...

Like I said, sorry for the rush job. And I'll take down the fact that you can read Chinese.

There was an interesting phrase. "Without Bureau approval such a powerful mage would not be allowed to stay on a non-magical world."

I'm sure that's more or less how I translated it before, so that's nothing.

I would have been more impressed if they didn't mention Lindy had to push hard to get said approval in the next paragraph. That would have made it easier to get approval for Fate and Hayate and co. And I still have a low opinion on the Bureau requiring foreign mages to get their "approval" to stay where they will.

Well, certainly, canonicity aside, it is clear the creator of the show does not agree with your sentiment.

Still doesn't gain it admittance into Continuity A. And I still say shoehorning the novel in is unneccessary.

Even though 2 of its chapters are about Precia and Linis' past? OH well, I see nothing more I can say can push you further in this direction.

Originally Posted by Keroko

In other words "throw away that which contradicts, and keep what doesn't"?

Precisely. This is also the position apparently taken by NanohaWiki, so if you refuse it, you won't, among other things, be able to quote from NanohaWiki again in fear of accidentally ingesting something from the novel.

To be honest, the more I learn of the novel, the more apealing salvaging is beginning to sound. There is lots of valuable data in there that does not contradict anything we'd be throwing away.

Oh yes there is. The development of Nanoha's combat doctrine. The development of Fate's doctrine, including the development of Photon Lancer Phalanx Shift. Two entire chapters of Linis and Precia backstory.

I believe the colors of magic were a subject in the novel?

Yes it is, however, this particular one might prove a little disappointing, because magical color is based on the "wavelength(s)*" of a person's emissions, which is logical. Unfortunately, there has no correlation to a person or their magical talents.

*Chinese and Japanese are analytic languages when it comes to single/plural - you deduce single/plural based on neighboring words or the context. In this case, it was probably plural because the colors you can make with only one emission wavelength is sorely limited, much less pink or white.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

I'm sure that's more or less how I translated it before, so that's nothing.

It is something. This basically means that the TSAB doesn't actively seeks out and recruits mages from non-magical worlds, but does recruit them when they encounter them. Also, the second part is worthy of notice. Power-level is apparently important in the decicion whether they should be shipped off-planet or not. Nanoha was a AAA ranked 9 year old. Even among mid-childans, that's a diamond in a mountain of rocks. This makes the rule a lot more logical then if it were 'any' mage. You can let a C-rank mage go, but don't just let a AAA rank mage off the hook that easilly.

It's not 'all mages on non-administered world' just 'ridiculousely powered mages on non-administered worlds' which makes a hellalot more sense.

Could you translate the part that talks about how much effort (and what kind of effort) Lindy had to pull in order to get Nanoha to stay? I think I'm on to something that could settle this entire debate.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Oh yes there is. The development of Nanoha's combat doctrine. The development of Fate's doctrine, including the development of Photon Lancer Phalanx Shift. Two entire chapters of Linis and Precia backstory.

That would be a shame to throw away.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Yes it is, however, this particular one might prove a little disappointing, because magical color is based on the "wavelength(s)*" of a person's emissions, which is logical. Unfortunately, there has no correlation to a person or their magical talents.

*Chinese and Japanese are analytic languages when it comes to single/plural - you deduce single/plural based on neighboring words or the context. In this case, it was probably plural because the colors you can make with only one emission wavelength is sorely limited, much less pink or white.

Well, it pretty much confirms my theory that magic color is largely decided from birth, depends on your physical makeup, and is only altered through radical events (point in case, Hayate unisioning with Yami no Sho).

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Keroko

It is something. This basically means that the TSAB doesn't actively seeks out and recruits mages from non-magical worlds, but does recruit them when they encounter them. Also, the second part is worthy of notice. Power-level is apparently important in the decicion whether they should be shipped off-planet or not. Nanoha was a AAA ranked 9 year old. Even among mid-childans, that's a diamond in a mountain of rocks. This makes the rule a lot more logical then if it were 'any' mage. You can let a C-rank mage go, but don't just let a AAA rank mage off the hook that easilly.

It's not 'all mages on non-administered world' just 'ridiculousely powered mages on non-administered worlds' which makes a hellalot more sense.

Could you translate the part that talks about how much effort (and what kind of effort) Lindy had to pull in order to get Nanoha to stay? I think I'm on to something that could settle this entire debate.

Already done for the last round.

Which is why I'm frankly surprised that you hadn't realized the two above two factors until now.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

That's not what you were saying for awhile. But I'll let you claim emotional instability

I've had it with arguing with you about what constitutes continuity. But I find your questioning of my emotional stability and that arrogant smiley at the end to be very offensive.

[arkhangelsk]

Spoiler for Demi private to Jimmy:

The "arrogant smiley" is how Animesuki's emoticon function interprets what should have been the good old colon+D, which AFAIK is a friendly gesture.

As for emotional stability, I'll be frank. From my end of the desk, for a few hours there, you really looked like you lost it there, especially when you took that "episode number" tack. So, I'm actually a little worried about you too, and I mean that in a caring way.

However, unlike you, I'm aware people can make honest mistakes in the heat of the moment, or maybe you just had a tough day at work, and thus am basically allowing you to retract it and move on with no penalty.

If it is Keroko or anybody else, I'll have let them off this without even a mention. However, since in this past debate, you've been hostile beyond the needs of our dispute, and eager to take any perceived hesitation as weakness and any consideration (as opposed to flat out refusal) of other ideas as a sign you can hand out demands for unconditional surrender, I've decided to make one brief mention.

Finally, you are one who has done all of what I said above, and further, questioned my integrity as a translator in the not very distant past. Obviously, your concern for my feelings at being effectively called a liar was zero. To demand respect for your feelings after such an event, is IMO, a little hypocritical.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Already done for the last round.

Which is why I'm frankly surprised that you hadn't realized the two above two factors until now.

Because I totally, completely did not remember that one.

However, this once again opens the contradiction part. If Lindy had to go through all that trouble just to get Nanoha to stay (who had been nothing but helpfull) how did they get permission for Hayate and her knights? Fate has the somewhat questionable excuse of being a Harlaown, but Hayate has no such excuse and a criminal record, with accusations running to boot.

[Jimmy C]

Spoiler for Demi private to Arkhangelsk:

You've been told about that smiley being arrogant before. I've seen you use the less offensive smilely after that. I figured you learned. When you used this one again, I was sure you meant it convey exactly what it meant.
I offer my humblest apologies for making such an unfounded assumption. I should have thought maybe you had merely forgotten that this smilely was arrogant.
I'll avoid that mistake in the future.

[arkhangelsk]

Well, if you ask me, the Fate and Hayate events, rather than a contradictor, is actually a definer. It gives extra depth to the implementation.

There are four factors in granting the permission: Past contribution, future contribution, undertable maneuvering and criminal record (we presume, it is the only factor that is not explicitly stated, but it is reasonable that it is worth something).

We don't know how much each factor weighs. And the later events tell us, the top 3 pretty much come out on top.

Fate helped out in the end, after all, and Hayate and the Knights also did much to clean their own mess, so that's the Past Contribution. For future, everyone is genuinely willing to serve - high points for all there. I assume Lindy is doing her best for each of them (and each one is helped by the success of the last - so this factor is getting stronger).

So, it is the criminality, and apparently the first three factors were stronger. That's not a contradiction. That's a detail we were unaware of before extrapolating from Terran values.

This is consistent with two models. The best TSAB interests model, which I've repeated many times above. Everyone agrees it is best that your elite mages are happy, and that may override any notions of criminality.

Further, it is also pretty clear that except for fully hardcore criminals (Scarlietti, the hardcore Numbers, probably Precia had she been arrested), the majority of the TSAB prefers rehabiliative and restorative methods of justice (its kind a mix of the two).

That even a repentant criminal might be treated almost the same as a non-criminal is alien to our thoughts of the justice system, which is Retributive - "I know he's genuinely willing to do good, but he still did the crime, so he must at least finish his prison term before being given a chance."

However, in the restorative system, the emphasis is on making the criminal repay the community in a way he and society can accept, in order to reintegrate the criminal into being a productive member of society and to reverse whatever damage he did ASAP.

Under such a model, it is entirely feasible that criminality is not awfully important in their outward treatment. In fact, it might even be a factor helping them stay on Earth. Lindy might simply write that a successful reintegration is more likely if they were allowed to stay with friends (Nanoha, Arisa, Suzuka) in a familiar environment, and under the Restorative model, it will probably be accepted as a reason for letting them stay on Earth.

Spoiler for More demi private to Jimmy:

Actually, I remembered it. But here's the rub. I was maybe 70-80% caring about you, so the colon+) was there. But as I've been free in admitting, you've been poking me a little hard and I wanted to add a friendly poke back, for which the colon+) just wouldn't do. So it was one step up, the colon+D, friendly w/ a gentle poke. Maybe I'll try the semicolon+) next time...

As for arrogance, well Wild Goose said that, and I respect his opinion so you are seeing a shift. But I must say that I don't exactly get those vibes from that smile.

[BBM]

A law that demands that mages join the military seems unlikely to me, it more likely that it makes it mandatory for them to receive training. And if the kids don't have any parents or a supporting community then they are shipped to the 'care center'.

There are also many good reasons for the Hayete to stay on earth. It keep them happy/loyal, avoids embarrassment to the TSAB and if something does go wrong then the damage is most likely limited to the non-administrated world.

[ghazghkull]

This might be the wrong place to put it, but this is directed to anyone who is familiar with Canadian military policies.

What is the policy of wearing civies aboard ship, when one is off duty?

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by ghazghkull

This might be the wrong place to put it, but this is directed to anyone who is familiar with Canadian military policies.

What is the policy of wearing civies aboard ship, when one is off duty?

We never actually seen anyone on the ships wear civies since we never saw anyone off duty. But during the time in A's when Lindy setup shop in Japan. Amy and Chrono while supposely on duy was wearing civilian type clothes. Off course that might just be for camofluge sake and fitting in with the neightbors. Won't do if the neightbors comes by to borrow a cup of sugar and they are all wearing uniform.