Code Geass R2 - Episode 8 Discussion / Poll

[Ice_Bullet]

Originally Posted by manga852

got a point there alot of people take OP and ED seriously when they don't always have anything to do with events happening in the show.
Worste spoiler OP I've seen so far is the latest D Grayman OP rediculous how much they give away in it.

But the song was awesome lol. i think they did it as they assume that most fans follow the manga as well

by different... you mean they will start developing the geass plot? instead of lelouch's rise back to power?

[Sol Falling]

Haa, not really sure if I'm up to writing another wall of text right now. Ah well, in we go.

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

All I require is that they have the capability of doing it Sol, not the legal litigations as the U.S political system is not the Chinese political system in this case in order to make it happen. Oh, and lets add a new tidbit to your doubts about population being a major factor... recent pictures from the preview now put India as a part of the Chinese Federation as well

Technically, if you go back to Episode 5, Lelouch had Li get into 'contact' with the head eunuch, at the same time Lelouch also managed to get enough political favor in the Chinese Federation to gain assylum for one million political refugees and an Iceberg ship. At this point the one million Zero costumes don't become that big of a stretch considering how committed the Chinese Federation has already become >_>

How quickly and to what extent you can mobilize an army is just as important as the size of it. As for India's membership in the Federation, what about it exactly? I've already had a discussion with Anh Minh about how India's membership affects the plausibility of the scenario, and this (along with other comments you have made) make me wonder if you've even read those at all.

You bring up a good point that Lelouch has already been in contact with the head eunuch, but that was episode 5, while there was no inkling that Lelouch had even thought of leaving Japan until episode 7. The iceburg ship and political asylum just aren't a big deal in comparison, because as I said that's just one ship, which probably had to make the trip anyway and just took a detour, and with their population and command economy status the Chinese Federation is probably used to accomodating that many people. Making a million Zero costumes on the other hand involves the abrupt involvement of tens of thousands of workers and tens of millions of dollars in lost productivity. All of this merely for some terrorist's one off prank on Britannia, single use costumes that will never (foreseeably) serve another purpose (heh maybe the refugees can sleep in them). Having such a trivial, nonsensical, and yet expensive down payment before the Chinese can even start making use of the Black Knights for their intended purpose makes its plausibility zero.

You'll forgive me if I don't continue with the discussion of China's economic resurgence considering this is the first time I've read somebody challenege and managing to bring up points I hadn't really read about in my other articles, so going to the trouble of finding and quoting them would be a bit of a waste I feel since they don't really address a lot of the things you bring up.

That's alright, then. Y'know, I'm actually Chinese (or at least my parents are) and China's expansion has played no small part in my family situation, my lifestyle, and my aspects for the future. But as a country and a people to be respected, and as something for me to place my hopes in, China still has a long, long way to go.

Sure, if you look at the end its happened to a lot of the would be corrupters once upon a time. Still, my point being that political leaders can and often do take advantage of its citizens in order to reap the rewards from their backs of its citizens in a command economy, replacing the once unscrupuleos buisness management with the formation of their own upper class within the government itself now that they have direct control over the economy. Basically while workers toiled away in the factories Stalin and those of his inner circle he did not purge enjoyed the finest of luxeries, it's true of a lot of so called 'communist' countries and why communism hasn't really worked as a form of government, the same can be said for this unique Imperial/socilaist system in the Chinese Federation with the upper class made up of the Eunuch's who certainly do not look like they are in a poor state of living unlike the description of whats happening with the common people.

Wow, you got all of that out of a couple sentences. I don't necessarily disagree, my point really was that those kinds of systems don't last long. Governments which are both corrupt and weak cannot effectively compete on the world stage and inevitably crumble from forces either external or internal. That's why, with the Chinese Federation's superpower status as well as its inklings of having a history (as in, you know, the suggestion that this is one communist country which does work), I don't believe Soviet Russia under Stalin to be comparable.

What are you talking about? Calm down Sol, my main point was that an abuse of power by the government as we have been led to believe concerning the corrupt Eunuch's can transition into effecting the workers through the direct control of the economy and I think we can both agree on that. Now, as for your talk of quotas, quotas are often used and set mainly for in the case of the needs of the countries people, I'm not arguing that however. In modern China, the excess surplus of goods is exported to foreign markets now a days, and I don't see why the same cannot be done for the Chinese Federation, despite the leery attitudes with one another this is not like a Cold War economic embargo given the 30 second previews for episode 9 now point ot a political alliance with Britannia and the C.F. Why do we need to resort to the black market anyway, what is so wrong with simply using legitimate trade relations in order to make the prospect of using cheap labor profitable much like in modern China, only with direct control from the corrupt government versus the ususal unscrupulous buisness owners.

Okay, see, the thing is. The extortion and overwork that facilitates China's manufacturing capabilities is not an everyday thing, as common as it is. You can't work workers till three in the morning everyday, else they'd collapse. You can't withhold wages when they're due everytime, else they wouldn't work in the first place. These are individual actions taken by profit-minded businesses in response to the fluctuations of a market, something entirely unlike a quota. The difference in publicly and privately run institutions (even corrupt ones) lies mainly in one thing, that being stability. So what I'm saying is, if the government will not work its workers till three in the morning everyday (which would be impossible), it won't work them till three in the morning at all.

All of this is apart from your ideas about the Chinese Federation being the same kind of export economy that our China is in our world. First of all, exports don't consist of an 'excess supply of goods'; production in China is aimed specifically at foreign markets, for foreign companies, and many of the products which are produced are never owned by the common people at all. International trade doesn't work like some kind of gigantic marketplace, where you take all the shit you have and sit in a stall waiting for people to walk by and buy it; specific meetings between specific clients are made, resulting in specific contracts guaranteeing a specific supply of product. As a command economy, the C.F. would be attempting to emphasize efficiency by optimizing the size of each industry's workforce. So even if it played at international trade like you're suggesting, if it were really interested in accomodating foreign demand it would migrate workers over to provide the required increase in production rather than overwork their current population.

But aside from that, you still seem stuck on the idea that the C.F. must have the same kind of comparative advantages that it does in our world. Our China has a lot of cheap labour, yes. The reason why so much of the population can be considered 'cheap labour' is because they are poor and uneducated--this means that not only are they willing to accept low-paying jobs because they desperately need any money at all, but they are also untrained in any of the sorts of skills which might actually be in demand. As a result, millions of Chinese sit in warehouses all day cutting loose threads off of jeans and stuffing them into boxes. However--and this is especially true if the C.F. is a command economy where wealth is distributed--the China of Code Geass' world is an economic and military superpower, meaning that its people can't be poor and uneducated. Thus the C.F.'s advantage is not that it has a massive population of cheap labour, it being rather that it has a massive population of labour plain and simple. This means that the C.F.'s workforce is not limited to making clothes or other equivalent 'cheap labour' tasks, and thus there is no reason why clothes from the C.F. should be any cheaper than those from the E.U. or Britannia (meaning no demand from the foreign market).

It's happened a lot of times in terms of a command economy with communist nations in the past. I'm not sure what you're getting at with the overseers and moving upward and such, but I point to government corruption moving downwards myself given their direct control of the economy, and you can motivate your workers just fine when you have the power to do so and direct control over their livelihood, you don't need to 'entice' the persay rather then just simply using force like with under command economy governments.

The profits in government corruption tend to move upwards, meaning there is less direct benefit for the workers' overseers to overwork their charges, and thus it is less likely for the workers to suffer conditions like I've outlined before.

Yeah, but its not mass-produced, rather it is a singular prototype at the moment that kills its pilots. I'll stick with the standard arsenal in this case for a more general description rather then the exception.

Your point was that the C.F. steals all its technology like in our modern China. This isn't an exception, it's an outright contradiction of that claim. This is simply even further evidence that Code Geass's China cannot be compared to ours.

If the system is all ready in place for them to do so then why not? This isn't arguing or convincing a dozen different factory owners, this is a direct transition from the bureacracy of a government in order to handle such a scenario.

The system wouldn't be all ready in place though. I think you're missing the point that production lines are usually set up to do their work over a period of months. The delivery of material, the transportation between different parts of the assembly line, etc, etc. There is no precedent for making a million duplicates of a single item within a couple days, and using the current system would mean the involvement of hundreds of different factories which makes getting everything started even harder. You're usually just dealing with a couple factories at a time, y'know? I mean, where are they even supposed to get the dozens of prototype suits they would have to send out? Wait for a factory to complete its first batch? The timeline involved with this is ridiculous.

I disagree with you on that, because coordination and logistics seems more viable with actual streamlined production capability and smuggling it into the country, versus doing homespinning right under your occupiers noses in such a short time.

We're talking coordination and logistics, right? Using factories in China involves a lot of planning stuff out and telling people what to do. Homespinning, even if it is 'right under your occupier's noses', is something everybody can use their own judgement to accomplish. The responsibility is spread out, instead of all laying on one person (or a few). There's no waiting around for other people or worrying without being able to do anything about it, because everybody knows what they need to do and has the resources at hand to accomplish it. It's been established, there is really no comparison.

No idea, it is fun though

:P Jesus. Haa, I need to get something to eat.

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Haa, not really sure if I'm up to writing another wall of text right now. Ah well, in we go.

Well, you better get ready to continue because I sure as hell am not stopping

How quickly and to what extent you can mobilize an army is just as important as the size of it. As for India's membership in the Federation, what about it exactly? I've already had a discussion with Anh Minh about how India's membership affects the plausibility of the scenario, and this (along with other comments you have made) make me wonder if you've even read those at all.

Look, I barely keep up with my things with you given how long this damn post is so forgive me for not finding the time to look at other people's elongated arguments

You bring up a good point that Lelouch has already been in contact with the head eunuch, but that was episode 5, while there was no inkling that Lelouch had even thought of leaving Japan until episode 7. The iceburg ship and political asylum just aren't a big deal in comparison, because as I said that's just one ship, which probably had to make the trip anyway and just took a detour, and with their population and command economy status the Chinese Federation is probably used to accomodating that many people. Making a million Zero costumes on the other hand involves the abrupt involvement of tens of thousands of workers and tens of millions of dollars in lost productivity. All of this merely for some terrorist's one off prank on Britannia, single use costumes that will never (foreseeably) serve another purpose (heh maybe the refugees can sleep in them). Having such a trivial, nonsensical, and yet expensive down payment before the Chinese can even start making use of the Black Knights for their intended purpose makes its plausibility zero.

It wasn't a point that he had such thoughts, it was a point to him having the possibility open to him at the time with such political connections already underway. And political asylum is a pretty damn big deal considering that it is one-million refugees who will be staying who knows how long in your country that will be eating up your resources when and if they finally leave and this is while your own society is in pretty bad shape according to the indications from the preview so excuse me if I'm skeptical if harboring this many refugees would be considered easy for the C.F , and I have no idea how much a iceberg ship must cause but I can imagine it wasn't cheap, at the same time these million Zero costumes are also a one time thing. At the same time I feel your underestimating the importance of the moment, it wasn't just a prank but a mass exodus that has now allowed the Order to survive and most probably grow in strength to take on Britannia in the future, and I have no idea what kind of purpose the Chinese can have for the OotBK but I'll contest that they've already demonstrated a hefty enough investment into the matter that adding on the bill for the Zero costumes just seems like a natural progression at this point.

That's alright, then. Y'know, I'm actually Chinese (or at least my parents are) and China's expansion has played no small part in my family situation, my lifestyle, and my aspects for the future. But as a country and a people to be respected, and as something for me to place my hopes in, China still has a long, long way to go.

Same here, in any case, but my connection with China is mostly from the outlook of the states and from that perspective that are a power to be feared.

Wow, you got all of that out of a couple sentences. I don't necessarily disagree, my point really was that those kinds of systems don't last long. Governments which are both corrupt and weak cannot effectively compete on the world stage and inevitably crumble from forces either external or internal. That's why, with the Chinese Federation's superpower status as well as its inklings of having a history (as in, you know, the suggestion that this is one communist country which does work), I don't believe Soviet Russia under Stalin to be comparable

Well we already know the CF is corrupt and has a pretty weak indicator of its society, but even then with a similar correspondence Soviet Russia was a world power itself during its time even under those conditions. I can't say I would disagree with the prospect that such a society can't last long, at the same time we don't know how long this type of situation has been going on for the C.F. Every nation goes through these kinds of periods if they last long enough in any case so I find this point rather moot.

Okay, see, the thing is. The extortion and overwork that facilitates China's manufacturing capabilities is not an everyday thing, as common as it is. You can't work workers till three in the morning everyday, else they'd collapse. You can't withhold wages when they're due everytime, else they wouldn't work in the first place. These are individual actions taken by profit-minded businesses in response to the fluctuations of a market, something entirely unlike a quota. The difference in publicly and privately run institutions (even corrupt ones) lies mainly in one thing, that being stability. So what I'm saying is, if the government will not work its workers till three in the morning everyday (which would be impossible), it won't work them till three in the morning at all.

Okay, that last sentence seems unsubstantiated so I'll ask you why does the government have to work their workers to the ground everyday in order for them to do it at all. The prospect of making a million Zero costumes in a timely manner does not seem like the typical quota as you yourself have pointed out at certain times in your argument, so I don't think that would give an indication that even if they do work the economy hard they don't necessarily do it enough to break its back >_>

All of this is apart from your ideas about the Chinese Federation being the same kind of export economy that our China is in our world. First of all, exports don't consist of an 'excess supply of goods'; production in China is aimed specifically at foreign markets, for foreign companies, and many of the products which are produced are never owned by the common people at all. International trade doesn't work like some kind of gigantic marketplace, where you take all the shit you have and sit in a stall waiting for people to walk by and buy it; specific meetings between specific clients are made, resulting in specific contracts guaranteeing a specific supply of product. As a command economy, the C.F. would be attempting to emphasize efficiency by optimizing the size of each industry's workforce. So even if it played at international trade like you're suggesting, if it were really interested in accomodating foreign demand it would migrate workers over to provide the required increase in production rather than overwork their current population.

Wait, since when? If its a command economy then they'd have to ensure productivity from its native population in order to warrant accommodating them through social policy, this isn't a welfare state and now you are suddenly saying they should downsize jobs and bring in foreign experts to streamline the Industry thus displacing many of its own people? Oh c'mon, now I'm finding this rather hard to swallow that the C.F would purposefully indulge in poverty while still trying to distribute funds to the people, even if it should prove mediocre in aid. At the same time I don't see why you're getting so testy with your language in the beginning of this paragraph, I understand the concept of the international market quite well so don't try to insult me on that matter. At the same time nothing you said really contradicts my own points, and I your confusing the concept of the 'command' system with a capitalistic notion of marketing. <_<

But aside from that, you still seem stuck on the idea that the C.F. must have the same kind of comparative advantages that it does in our world. Our China has a lot of cheap labour, yes. The reason why so much of the population can be considered 'cheap labour' is because they are poor and uneducated--this means that not only are they willing to accept low-paying jobs because they desperately need any money at all, but they are also untrained in any of the sorts of skills which might actually be in demand. As a result, millions of Chinese sit in warehouses all day cutting loose threads off of jeans and stuffing them into boxes. However--and this is especially true if the C.F. is a command economy where wealth is distributed--the China of Code Geass' world is an economic and military superpower, meaning that its people can't be poor and uneducated. Thus the C.F.'s advantage is not that it has a massive population of cheap labour, it being rather that it has a massive population of labour plain and simple. This means that the C.F.'s workforce is not limited to making clothes or other equivalent 'cheap labour' tasks, and thus there is no reason why clothes from the C.F. should be any cheaper than those from the E.U. or Britannia (meaning no demand from the foreign market).

I don't see the big contrast with the two in this regard other then what is your own feelings concerning China's status in the world as a major power, which is contrary from what I've read up to this point on the issue which indicates that it is under the circumstances you just described, so from my point of view it is actually easy to transition that outlook onto the Chinese Federation in turn, even more so if I go by what the previews have indicated on that matter concerning subjects like a poor and undereducated society with a large population base.

The profits in government corruption tend to move upwards, meaning there is less direct benefit for the workers' overseers to overwork their charges, and thus it is less likely for the workers to suffer conditions like I've outlined before.

Wait, what? I'm not getting it, a workers overseer would be under the corrupt official trying to reap the benefits of their spoils, so I if the official wants to abuse the workers a little in order to increase a bit more profit for their own coffers I don't see what an overseer can do about it except follow orders and try to reap a reward for himself along the way.

Your point was that the C.F. steals all its technology like in our modern China. This isn't an exception, it's an outright contradiction of that claim. This is simply even further evidence that Code Geass's China cannot be compared to ours.

China doesn't steal all of its technology either, even it has special projects and variations to the development of its own armory. And even then, despite the Shen Shu's impressive overlay of Chinese variation at its basic foundation it was still built off of the original concepts from Britannia's Knightmare Frame development.

The system wouldn't be all ready in place though. I think you're missing the point that production lines are usually set up to do their work over a period of months. The delivery of material, the transportation between different parts of the assembly line, etc, etc. There is no precedent for making a million duplicates of a single item within a couple days, and using the current system would mean the involvement of hundreds of different factories which makes getting everything started even harder. You're usually just dealing with a couple factories at a time, y'know? I mean, where are they even supposed to get the dozens of prototype suits they would have to send out? Wait for a factory to complete its first batch? The timeline involved with this is ridiculous.

Why not? The first factory can probably spit out a free dozen prototypes quickly enough that it adds, what? Another day at most probably. My main point was that considering a command economy is in place, the manufacturing facilities will probably have to have an organized system in place in order to run them all, otherwise it wouldn't be much in the way of a command economy. So while organizing them may be difficult as you put it, the infrastructure for implementing it is probably already in place. At the same time you can divide up the parts and focus on specific features of the suit, which isn't quite as hard to do. Shirts, overcoats, pants, cloaks, even if you need to tweak a few things to match the specifics such things still have a basic outlay which can still be implemented in their assembly line designed for say other products of similar nature.

We're talking coordination and logistics, right? Using factories in China involves a lot of planning stuff out and telling people what to do. Homespinning, even if it is 'right under your occupier's noses', is something everybody can use their own judgement to accomplish. The responsibility is spread out, instead of all laying on one person (or a few). There's no waiting around for other people or worrying without being able to do anything about it, because everybody knows what they need to do and has the resources at hand to accomplish it. It's been established, there is really no comparison.

What's been established? Gandhi and his cloth blanket during the embargo to Great Britain? I figure Zero's costume is probably a bit harder to handle, especially the helmet which wouldn't exactly be the forte since I'm pretty sure that would take a bit more skill which Lelouch had custom made by Geassing that old man in Turn 4 so even if they have the skill for such a venture I ponder where they would acquire the necessary tools to implement them on the matter.. Leaving it up to individuals who may or may not have knowledge concerning such a subject, getting them the materials needed to make such a thing under a short amount of time, and making sure the venture isn't leaked out to Britannia during that whole time seems rather harder to carry out then utilizing the infrastructure of another country which can keep such a venture under wraps since it is within its own borders, with manufacturing capability already in place, and just sneaking the items in question in bulk in a few trips (transports are big enough for me to think they wouldn't need to do something like that often) seems a bit easier to imagine then what you're trying to suggest...

:P Jesus. Haa, I need to get something to eat.

I'll be right here waiting when you're done

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by KStriker

Why not? The first factory can probably spit out a free dozen prototypes quickly enough that it adds, what? Another day at most probably. My main point was that considering a command economy is in place, the manufacturing facilities will probably have to have an organized system in place in order to run them all, otherwise it wouldn't be much in the way of a command economy. So while organizing them may be difficult as you put it, the infrastructure for implementing it is probably already in place. At the same time you can divide up the parts and focus on specific features of the suit, which isn't quite as hard to do. Shirts, overcoats, pants, cloaks, even if you need to tweak a few things to match the specifics such things still have a basic outlay which can still be implemented in their assembly line designed for say other products of similar nature

Wow, we're still on this? Man o man...This explanation here has all the practicality of a Calculator on a date with a real woman...Sure he can put 2 and 2 together, he can figure out the dinner tip, hell he can even get her to play around with his hawt-buttons, but at the end of the day technically sound doesn't just equal believability...In a perfect world, an animated world at that, yes, in theory I suppose you can get a million custom made Zero suits, and even have every ascot, every sock, and every jock-protector made to perfection, but honestly if you watched how this ep and the preceding eps played out, how much true sense does this make? If your argument is it probably is possible, then you win, you may collect 200 dollars...But as was stated the events concerning the preparation of this gaudy spectacle just don't add up...A phone call to Diethard here, a fake super pre-plan pre-plan there...A pretty nonsensical idea to begin with honestly if your caveat is only in the realm of theoretics (Which I guess is a geass blink away regardless of the task)...

Why not? Hmm... Because the scene looked like a fake whimsical presentation of unpractical bull, that's why...When you take the scene into account you make it easy to dismiss the theoretical merit (Again ignoring Lulu's lack of any plan or hope the previous ep)...I still say it's the most cartoonish, unbelievable thing I've seen in this show...Totally distorts the context of this show and for the life of me I can't understand how so many people just ignored it...I can't tell you how many blogs and reviews I read where there isn't even a mention of this scenes' fallacy (For the love of critics)...I could never give this ep more than a 6 based on the Zero-no-jutsu because it made all the awesome realization and tactical revelations have to sleep on a house of cards for support...So defend the Chinese manufactoring industry while I practice not getting caught in my underwear while changing into a multicolored trench-coat...

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Wow, we're still on this? Man o man...This explanation here has all the practicality of a Calculator on a date with a real woman...Sure he can put 2 and 2 together, he can figure out the dinner tip, hell he can even get her to play around with his hawt-buttons, but at the end of the day technically sound doesn't just equal believability...In a perfect world, an animated world at that, yes, in theory I suppose you can get a million custom made Zero suits, and even have every ascot, every sock, and every jock-protector made to perfection, but honestly if you watched how this ep and the preceding eps played out, how much true sense does this make? If your argument is it probably is possible, then you win, you may collect 200 dollars...But as was stated the events concerning the preparation of this gaudy spectacle just don't add up...A phone call to Diethard here, a fake super pre-plan pre-plan there...A pretty nonsensical idea to begin with honestly if your caveat is only in the realm of theoretics (Which I guess is a geass blink away regardless of the task)...

Why not? Hmm... Because the scene looked like a fake whimsical presentation of unpractical bull, that's why...When you take the scene into account you make it easy to dismiss the theoretical merit (Again ignoring Lulu's lack of any plan or hope the previous ep)...I still say it's the most cartoonish, unbelievable thing I've seen in this show...Totally distorts the context of this show and for the life of me I can't understand how so many people just ignored it...I can't tell you how many blogs and reviews I read where there isn't even a mention of this scenes' fallacy (For the love of critics)...I could never give this ep more than a 6 based on the Zero-no-jutsu because it made all the awesome realization and tactical revelations have to sleep on a house of cards for support...So defend the Chinese manufactoring industry while I practice not getting caught in my underwear while changing into a multicolored trench-coat...

Wow wing, calm down, you're getting hysterical... I'll say this though, it really isn't that big of a deal to get so worked up about and the content it carried seemed well worth it because like Kaoishin I focused on the impact and message it delivered and the implications. Plus its anime, and there are factors that say it can realistically happen which makes it easier to swallow even if it is a stretch, but that's pretty forgivable when the anime at the very least does what it was made to do, keep you entertained and yes, it did just that

[wingdarkness]

I'm honestly not mad at all, unfortunately words on a screen tend to say so many different things...I'm just puzzled because it seems me and Sol Falling are like the only people in the whole CodeGeass fanverse that feels like everyone is just giving this $hit a pass...There comes a time in even shows that you love that you have to draw a line...

[Var]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

I'm honestly not mad at all, unfortunately words on a screen tend to say so many different things...I'm just puzzled because it seems me and Sol Falling are like the only people in the whole CodeGeass fanverse that feels like everyone is just giving this $hit a pass...There comes a time in even shows that you love that you have to draw a line...

Out of sheer guessing, I'm going to say that most people don't actually care, or dismiss it as a ficticious event within a ficticious show. For me, personally, I'll start trying to logically explain Code Geass when giant roller-blading robots start stomping on my house. Until then, I'm going to take everything with a grain of salt and the understanding that its designed to entertain me. Bottom line, was I entertained by the event? Yes.

I just feel that some people expect to much reality from fiction.

[zoddo11]

thenks i like codegeass R2

[JesseJamesRocket]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

I'm honestly not mad at all, unfortunately words on a screen tend to say so many different things...I'm just puzzled because it seems me and Sol Falling are like the only people in the whole CodeGeass fanverse that feels like everyone is just giving this $hit a pass...There comes a time in even shows that you love that you have to draw a line...

I think that for me personally that's exactly what it is, a free pass. I think the million zero suits was rather cheesy and a borderline cop out, but it doesn't take too much imagining or acceptance for it to seem feasible. For the most part this series is extremely intelligent. I'll give them the benefit of doubt from time to time if need be. Especially if the actual resulting plot direction makes it worthwhile.

[lightbringer]

I didn't see the million Zero suits as "way out there" either. Free usage of Geass to keep things under wraps + good supply chain management + a week's preparation time or so + possible existence of pre-made suits as "fan articles"? + "it's anime" = more than enough arguments for me to let it pass without close scrutiny. Of course, YMMV, and does vary if we read wingdarkness's irritation.

I did have trouble imagining that one million people fit into that tiny square in front of the podium, though. I'd say there was space for maybe 100,000 people, tops. There's also the question of how the million people moved from the square to the iceberg, given that there were only a few ships in the area and that they did not swim (suits did not get wet) and that the iceberg is larger underneath, so no way to move it onto the shore close enough for people to just walk over.

[wingdarkness]

Again that’s not what it’s about for me…You can all save the “it’s anime” arguments and the “Expect too much from fiction back-up drives…This isn’t that acute…I’m simply talking about having context consistency…If we ignore it now, you might be more pi$$ed by it later…This isn’t the “Since robots aren’t real you should expect a lot of unreal things…” That standard doesn’t compute here…A world establishes certain contextual integrities and I simply find the one-million Zeros being something that betrayed that integrity…I’ll still dig the next ep if it’s awesome, but make no mistakes, even in shows I truly dig, I won’t just ignore anything in the sake of enjoyment…Sometimes it’s trivial, sometimes it’s worth the fuss…It’s a case by case situation…Just surprised only a handful of the fandom even blinked an eye at this (Nevermind totally defending it)…

[Var]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Again that’s not what it’s about for me…You can all save the “it’s anime” arguments and the “Expect too much from fiction back-up drives…This isn’t that acute…I’m simply talking about having context consistency…If we ignore it now, you might be more pi$$ed by it later…This isn’t the “Since robots aren’t real you should expect a lot of unreal things…” That standard doesn’t compute here…A world establishes certain contextual integrities and I simply find the one-million Zeros being something that betrayed that integrity…I’ll still dig the next ep if it’s awesome, but make no mistakes, even in shows I truly dig, I won’t just ignore anything in the sake of enjoyment…Sometimes it’s trivial, sometimes it’s worth the fuss…It’s a case by case situation…Just surprised only a handful of the fandom even blinked an eye at this (Nevermind totally defending it)…

I don't understand how 1,000,000 Zeroes is not equivalent to roller-blading giant robots. They are both stretches of the imagination. This is more a problem of what context people assume to have been established. For me, it was one where rather impossible things were shown possible. We have a high-temperature super conductor, a thing of legend in the real world, which would, quite frankly, fascilitate the development of many extreme technological capabilities including incredibly fast manufacturing. Just look at how fast they seemingly replace their destroyed Knightmares. It took less than a year to build Babel Tower and so on.

The show has shown that production can be incredibly fast in this show; as such I'm not really bothered by a series of suits. Did I raise an eyebrow? Yes. Do I make a fuss out of it? No. Why? Because this show has already demonstrated a high rate of production... and it has giant robots with super conductors.

[Crontica]

what Wing is trying to say is how the hell did Zero inform over 1million people to come and take Freshly made zero suits without info leaking out to the enemy there is just too much of a plot gap for this to seem believable even in a fictional universe with lasers and flying ships.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Crontica

what Wing is trying to say is how the hell did Zero inform over 1million people to come and take Freshly made zero suits without info leaking out to the enemy there is just too much of a plot gap for this to seem believable even in a fictional universe with lasers and flying ships.

Who's to say information didn't get leaked out? Perhaps no one believed it, or perhaps, just maybe, its really hard to stop 1 million people? Or maybe it worked the exact same way that the V for Vendetta method worked? Who said they came and took them? He could very well have mailed them all to where they needed to go. Sure, some of the suits would have been confiscated, but there's no reason to not believe that most of them got to where they needed too.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Var

Who's to say information didn't get leaked out? Perhaps no one believed it, or perhaps, just maybe, its really hard to stop 1 million people? Or maybe it worked the exact same way that the V for Vendetta method worked? Who said they came and took them? He could very well have mailed them all to where they needed to go. Sure, some of the suits would have been confiscated, but there's no reason to not believe that most of them got to where they needed too.

They could've been made by themselves, not all of the costumes looked alike(Some had a different color to them)

[praeceps]

I don't get why so many people have a problem with the Chinese being able to make so many suits. If the government of Area Eleven had enough time to prepare the SAZ for one million people then China had enough time to make one million suits. It would take a long time to set up accomadation for that many people, not to mention how much time it would take for the government to get itself moving, the time it would take for all the laws in the SAZ to be created, and everything else included in making a nation (this would take less time than it would in our world).

On the arguement of spies leaking the information ahead of time, who says the people actually knew what they were going to be doing way in advance. All Lelouch would have to do is to tell them he needs people to move to or at least pretend to move to the SAZ for one of his plans. Since they trust him so much it wouldn't be hard to imagine one million people following him on that alone. Then when it gets close to time he just has to distribute the Zero costumes out and tell them what is going to happen and make so the ones who decide they don't want to do it are unable to leave until the conclusion of the plan. If he does it close enough to the date, say several hours ahead of time, any spies wouldn't have enough time to report in discretely.

Also that only leaves his senior officers, the Eunuch General, and a couple of random factory works in a government factory as potential leaks. Obviously his senoir officers aren't going to leak the plan. I seriously doubt the Eunuchs are spying on their own movements. Also either they would be using trusted factory workers, really poor people that can't afford to lose their jobs (and their lives) do to being caught spying, or the factories could be mostly automated. The reason the factories are highly likely automated is the people of Code Geass can make mechs that are relatively simple to control but can do human like movements, indicating some form of program assisting them or maybe minor mind control considering it mentioned that Suzaku was 94% syncronized with the Lancelot and Orange controls the Sigfried with only his mind.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Var

Who's to say information didn't get leaked out? Perhaps no one believed it, or perhaps, just maybe, its really hard to stop 1 million people? Or maybe it worked the exact same way that the V for Vendetta method worked? Who said they came and took them? He could very well have mailed them all to where they needed to go. Sure, some of the suits would have been confiscated, but there's no reason to not believe that most of them got to where they needed too.

Where is the proof to back that up other than some whimsical magic show where people change outfits in the blink of an eye?? The only proof anyone has given is that it's POSSIBLE that China could produce suits (We still have no clue if China made it we're just working off of some loose interpretation based on sweatshops existing today--Again with China's supremacy in CG's world who knows if they even have this type of forced labor coalition)...Then you use the phrase most of them as if a million copies of something is equal to a couple hundred or thousand even (In V for Vendetta's case)...Lulu’s got refrain mere seconds from his arm veins, he’s given up on Nunally, yet he’s mailing off Zero suits for a plan that hasn’t even been thought of yet? Listen how you sound man…I’m just saying, dissention is healthy when looking at this situation…And I'll have a healthy concern if CG is gonna use techniques like this in future episodes…

@ praeceps -Does it matter whether they had spies or not? The sheer massiveness of the plan should require a better execution than what was shown…That way when people started pulling Chinese sweatshop comparisons out of there back-pockets you would have some validity to that argument instead of it being an argument only in possibilities…


@Crontica -Thanks, I’m glad you agree...I actually thought this might be an age thing where older fans might be more needing of plausibility than younger fans, but you just blew that outta the water and for that you have earned cookies…I mean leaked info was never really a bigger concern to me than the presentation of events, but you even gave me more food for thought with that...

[Kusaja]

We really don't know anything about how much time passed between Zero's officially starting to implement this plan and its execution, since the episode chose to focus on events elsewhere, mostly from the Britannian point of view, and didn't give us any indication of how the plan was carried out, in order to make it that much more of a surprise.

Both sides in this discussion are mostly speculating, basically.

That being the case, it's both a good and bad thing, I guess. Those who think the whole plan is ridiculous, and to a certain extent it is, can easily point to the lack of an explanation for it as a form of criticism and question the whole idea, but those who feel it's not that implausible can also say that the show doesn't rule out any of several possible explanations, at least so far, and there are vague hints about Li and Diethard being involved which could explain any number of things.

Britannian officials in general and the intelligence branch in particular haven't really had much of a track record in this show, to say the least (even back in season one, when Cornelia arrived, the main concern of local authorities wasn't getting rid of Zero, which pissed her off, understandably enough...and Nunnally's priorities aren't even moderately cautious, all she wanted was to set up the Special Zone once again, and in fact invited Zero to join in), so expecting too much from them would be a bit out of context. Hell, even Rollo and Villetta are technically intelligence agents, but they're mostly on Lelouch's side right now, for one reason or another, and that's also a potential problem. Even if a leak happened, what information would get out and what importance would be given to it? We don't know.

In short, there are many ways to look at this, according to what one wants to speculate about, but it doesn't really matter, unless or until the show decides to give any indication of what actually went on, even if briefly. We probably won't get more than a phrase or two though, if anything.

I do hope we don't get too many such situations, but one or two doesn't bother me considering the kind of show this is.

[Nainara]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Why not? Hmm... Because the scene looked like a fake whimsical presentation of unpractical bull, that's why...When you take the scene into account you make it easy to dismiss the theoretical merit (Again ignoring Lulu's lack of any plan or hope the previous ep)...I still say it's the most cartoonish, unbelievable thing I've seen in this show...Totally distorts the context of this show and for the life of me I can't understand how so many people just ignored it...I can't tell you how many blogs and reviews I read where there isn't even a mention of this scenes' fallacy (For the love of critics)...I could never give this ep more than a 6 based on the Zero-no-jutsu because it made all the awesome realization and tactical revelations have to sleep on a house of cards for support...So defend the Chinese manufactoring industry while I practice not getting caught in my underwear while changing into a multicolored trench-coat...

I agree with wingdarkness in that this episode shattered the established level of suspension of disbelief. It might have been made palatable with some amount of foreshadowing in earlier episodes, especially with regard to the enormous amount of preparation that would have been necessary for the undertaking in 8. Unfortunately no foreshadowing was done, and the entire plot came out of left field. In my view, it comes across as a cop-out by the writing crew who apparently cornered themselves and then ran out of ideas. The first season of geass had a similar moment in episode 22 when the plot was able to continue because, in one massive coincidence, the Zero "accidentally" geasses Euphie into massacring the Japanese.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Holy smokes, people are STILL talking about this?!!!! The million suits thing could almost have a thread of it's own. Heck if all the posts were moved there it would probably be bigger then some of other series entire episode threads.