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View Poll Results: Potential Pairing - Multiple Choice Option
Alto x VF 171 32 12.31%
Ozma x Bobby 13 5.00%
Ranka x Sheryl 42 16.15%
Sheryl x Alto 199 76.54%
Yasaburo x Alto 5 1.92%
Ranka x Ai-kun 38 14.62%
Alto x Klan 14 5.38%
Ranka x Alto 54 20.77%
Ranka x Brera 37 14.23%
Klan x Michael 101 38.85%
Ozma x Cathy 111 42.69%
Luca x Nanase 41 15.77%
Wilder x Monica 41 15.77%
Alto x VF25 37 14.23%
Yasaburo x Alto's father 10 3.85%
Alto x Brera 18 6.92%
Grace x Ranka 12 4.62%
Nanase x Ranka 21 8.08%
Sheryl x Klan 24 9.23%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 260. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-06-11, 03:16   Link #61
JackRydden224
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
I don't know if I could take 14 more episodes of her asking for advice, getting told what to do and getting jealous of Sheryl and Alto.
I know for sure that I can't take it anymore. If the kiss in episode 10 doesn't get her going then I am not sure what will, catching the two of them in bed?

Of the three themes in Macross we have different characters to represent them.

Music: Sheryl and Ranka
Love/Relationship: Sheryl/Alto (so far, not this will be what happens at the end)
Fighting: SMS team

Just because Ranka isn't doing much in the love/relationship category doesn't mean she isn't getting the spot light. We have to remember that she started out as a waitress at Nyan Nyan and he has come a long way from that.
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Old 2008-06-11, 04:04   Link #62
Slick_rick
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Originally Posted by herbert View Post
I don't want to comment too much about Alto's family trade as we don't know the reasons make Alto quit. Without knowing this, we can't reach a conclusion. We can only look at flying now. It definitely conflicted with Alto's family trade and he definitely perfers it. And we go back to ep 5. Alto asks why people fly; Sheryl answers that it's because people are meant to. Then ep 6, Sheryl shows her understanding of Alto by agreeing that not liking closed space vessels is very Alto-like. If these are not understanding, then I don't know what is.

Of course, if you mean any girl understands Alto's present and past and future fully and thoroughly, then neither of them. But Sheryl only needs to discover some hidden areas within Alto, Ranka however needs...well, err, Ranka? Does she knows Alto at all?
I believe that their will almost certainly be a trigger event that caused him to decided to quit doing plays and pursue his dream of flying. Understanding this event and helping him make peace with his past will probably be crucial to the eventual winner. While I agree Sheryl has so far the most understand if she doesn't push him to open up then I don't think she'll come out on top. So far we have seen that Ranka talks regularly with Alto. This is mostly her sharing her problems with him but it also gives him a better understanding of her. I think its too early to call but I'd give the edge to Ranka. She lacks courage but when she goes for something she puts her all into it. Alto also seems at times to not to know what to make of Sheryl actions.
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Old 2008-06-11, 04:15   Link #63
Westlo
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Originally Posted by JackRydden224 View Post
I know for sure that I can't take it anymore. If the kiss in episode 10 doesn't get her going then I am not sure what will, catching the two of them in bed?
That's why I'll be utterly disappointed if things are pretty much still status quo after 13.

Spoiler for 13:
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Old 2008-06-11, 04:16   Link #64
herbert
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Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
She lacks courage but when she goes for something she puts her all into it.
Can you educate me when has Ranka put all herself into sth? My memory fails.
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Old 2008-06-11, 06:12   Link #65
Slick_rick
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Can you educate me when has Ranka put all herself into sth? My memory fails.
Lets see she ran away from home when her brother wouldn't accept her decision to sing. She didn't back down from him after she had made that decision. During the Miss Macross contest she put her all in to it. Yes she was nervous and made some mistakes but she didn't go running off the stage crying. It was most likely her first time on stage and viewed by so many people. When in the Mall once she saw Alto's paper airplane fly by and set her mind to sing there where no one came to listen to her she put her all into it. Later on getting a manager and continuing to sing in that mall. Lets not forget the carrot suit, cute or not, she wouldn't have worn such a embarrassing outfit unless she was giving it her all. When she finally decided to play Mao after seeing Alto and Sheryl kiss she did her best in the movie and didn't hesitate when it came time to kiss Alto.
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Old 2008-06-11, 08:45   Link #66
Swampstorm
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That's what I'm saying. His inner doubt shows once he sees his limitations. His common ground with Ranka is that, they both doubt themselves despite their inner strengths. Ranka aspires to be like Sheryl. Why would she aspire to be like her if she doesn't think she can do it? However, someone tells her she can't do it, she'll doubt herself. In a sense, that's her limit. The two need input from others to get encouraged.
In episode two, Ranka specifically says that she'd love to be someone like Sheryl just once, but that she knows that it's impossible for her. That view only changes when Sheryl specifically tells Ranka to go after that dream.

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Originally Posted by ani_d View Post
Sheryl expressed great concern about Galaxy, but despite that she has the inner strength to move on. Just the fact that she didn't cancel her concert no matter how anxious/vulnerable she was. That's strength. Her confidence may have waver, but she can pick herself up and say "I can do this. I'm Sheryl Nome." Alto and Ranka don't think like that--or didn't start with that. I guess that's the whole point of this debacle
During the concert, though, Sheryl couldn't just pick herself up. She heard the fans shouting out and tried to be strong again, but she wavered a second time. It's only when she hears Ranka's voice that she is able to regain her strength. So Ranka's involvement was necessary for Sheryl to continue the concert.

I'm not saying whether it's absolutely good or bad to depend on others or not. Everyone needs support at some point from the people around them, in order to overcome the doubts that they encounter along the way. However, the drive to succeed has to originate from within. ("Don't believe in me, who believes in you; believe in you, who believes in yourself.")

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Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
I don't believe Sheryl understands in the least actually. She has said in Ep10 that she new about his past but never brought it up to him.
I'm not sure I understand this. The reason that Sheryl never brought up Alto's past was because she knew that it was a sensitive issue for him. Had she done otherwise, she would not have been considerate of Alto's feelings.

Part of understanding someone is knowing when not to pry.

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Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
Alto also seems at times to not to know what to make of Sheryl actions.
This point here is the biggest weakness as far as Alto's relationship with Sheryl is concerned.

It's not for lack of effort on Alto's part, though: he's made note of most of what Sheryl has let him see so far, such as her love for new experiences and her feelings regarding Galaxy. For all his complaining, he still cares enough to be troubled by seeing her hurt in episode six.

The problem comes from the fact that Sheryl still hasn't let Alto come really close. The kiss in episode ten, for example, showed that Sheryl was afraid of how Alto would react to the knowledge that she loves him. She tries to read his response, but when she's unable to, she quickly backs down and covers it up. Alto, however, being the straightforward guy that he is, gets terribly confused in the process. So until she overcomes that fear, it's going to be rather difficult for poor Alto to make sense of her.

This again links back to Sheryl's weakness about being unable to "leave her destiny in the hands of others". One thing that I hope to see her learn by the end of this series is to put her faith into others. If she can learn to do that, then she'll be able to properly tell Alto her feelings without fear of how he will respond.

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Lets see she ran away from home when her brother wouldn't accept her decision to sing. She didn't back down from him after she had made that decision. During the Miss Macross contest she put her all in to it. Yes she was nervous and made some mistakes but she didn't go running off the stage crying. It was most likely her first time on stage and viewed by so many people. When in the Mall once she saw Alto's paper airplane fly by and set her mind to sing there where no one came to listen to her she put her all into it. Later on getting a manager and continuing to sing in that mall. Lets not forget the carrot suit, cute or not, she wouldn't have worn such a embarrassing outfit unless she was giving it her all. When she finally decided to play Mao after seeing Alto and Sheryl kiss she did her best in the movie and didn't hesitate when it came time to kiss Alto.
Some of your examples are good, but there are a few points that need to be raised.

Ranka knows Ozma well enough to know that he cares for her, so even if she runs away, she knows that he'll come after her. So she knew that she was going to get her way eventually. If Ranka really was anticipating a 'no' from Ozma, then she would have at least packed her things.

In the mall, Ranka wasn't truly singing when there was nobody there willing to listen to her, due to the paper airplane and Alto's implied presence. When faced with a similar challenge in episode eight, she quickly becomes discouraged when she realizes that nobody is really paying attention to her.

While Ranka dons the carrot suit in episode eight, she still doesn't sing unabashedly. There's even a part which shows her hiding behind her carrot sample out of embarrassment. If she were really singing her heart out, then the whole mall would have noticed. After all, it's Ranka's singing ability that drew the attention to herself the first time around, not her choice of song.

In episode ten, Ranka took it for granted that Alto would go along with the kiss because it was in the script. Alto went through a period of worry that Ranka would be pressured to do the kiss. However, we didn't similar soul searching from Ranka about Alto being pressured to do the kiss, even though it really was a big problem for Alto until Sheryl talked with him to calm him down. So the challenge wasn't about Ranka having the conviction to act her part out in the face of uncertainty, but rather in having the appropriate feelings to be able to stage the kiss convincingly.

Ranka does make a lot of progress in each one of these steps (I'm just pointing out the flipside to your points), but she hasn't entirely thrown herself into anything on her own willpower, yet. But I'm certain that this will change shortly: after all, the legend starts here.
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Old 2008-06-11, 10:00   Link #67
Slick_rick
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I'm not sure I understand this. The reason that Sheryl never brought up Alto's past was because she knew that it was a sensitive issue for him. Had she done otherwise, she would not have been considerate of Alto's feelings.

Part of understanding someone is knowing when not to pry.
The thing about Alto is that he tries to deny his past. He never talks about his past and when it is brought up he gets upset. I don't think this is healthy behavior. It one thing to pry into his past without his permission but asking him straightforward about it should not be a concern. He will eventually have to make peace with it and talking about it to someone will be a good start. All that person has to do is ask him about it, without the mocking that usually accompanies it. If he doesn't want to talk about it then you don't have to push but let him know that you'll listen to him if he ever feels like opening up.


Quote:
Some of your examples are good, but there are a few points that need to be raised.

Ranka knows Ozma well enough to know that he cares for her, so even if she runs away, she knows that he'll come after her. So she knew that she was going to get her way eventually. If Ranka really was anticipating a 'no' from Ozma, then she would have at least packed her things.

In the mall, Ranka wasn't truly singing when there was nobody there willing to listen to her, due to the paper airplane and Alto's implied presence. When faced with a similar challenge in episode eight, she quickly becomes discouraged when she realizes that nobody is really paying attention to her.

While Ranka dons the carrot suit in episode eight, she still doesn't sing unabashedly. There's even a part which shows her hiding behind her carrot sample out of embarrassment. If she were really singing her heart out, then the whole mall would have noticed. After all, it's Ranka's singing ability that drew the attention to herself the first time around, not her choice of song.

In episode ten, Ranka took it for granted that Alto would go along with the kiss because it was in the script. Alto went through a period of worry that Ranka would be pressured to do the kiss. However, we didn't similar soul searching from Ranka about Alto being pressured to do the kiss, even though it really was a big problem for Alto until Sheryl talked with him to calm him down. So the challenge wasn't about Ranka having the conviction to act her part out in the face of uncertainty, but rather in having the appropriate feelings to be able to stage the kiss convincingly.

Ranka does make a lot of progress in each one of these steps (I'm just pointing out the flipside to your points), but she hasn't entirely thrown herself into anything on her own willpower, yet. But I'm certain that this will change shortly: after all, the legend starts here.
Give it you all doesn't mean you won't make mistakes or get embarrassed. She stills continues to show up to the mall and be embarrassed. She didn't stop singing, she didn't run away or go hide. Even though I think she felt like do all of that. She has to overcome her shyness and lack of stage experience but that will come with time.

Ep 10 Ranka says that she doesn't know if she can do either the kissing or the acting. Once she sees Alto and Sheryl kissing, she realizes her own feelings and how they are similar to Mao's. She was definitely uncertain about kissing Alto before seeing their kiss and feeling the desire to want to kiss him also.
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Old 2008-06-11, 20:06   Link #68
ani_d
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*sigh* You never seem to answer why it would be inconsistent if Ranka doesn't get with Alto at the end, it's like you don't know but if you keep saying it over and over and over you're hoping it comes true.
From the moment I jumped into this Macross LT wagon, this has been the only thing that I've been writing about when it comes to Alto and Ranka. How is it that I'm avoiding the topic here? Do you even think that it will be in Ranka's character to give up on Alto for the sake of fame? It would've been 7 episodes ago, but not anymore.

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Originally Posted by Westlo
I've got better headphones on now... from what my ears tell me it's all Sheryl until you hear Ranka after it showed Brera and Alto says "Song", goes back to Sheryl and than it's duet. You sure you're not mixing up the echo effect for a dual voice in those parts?
During those times, it was Sheryl and Ranka. I listened to it twice too, Ranka's voice was in there. They were hearing her through the earring. Ranka sang, Brera heard. It wasn't Sheryl Brera hunted down. It was Ranka, wasn't it? =_= Sheryl and her earrings were used as a bridge for plot development.

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Originally Posted by Westlo
The lack of a relationship crutch like that earring actually increases Sheryl's chances imo. It served it's purpose in creating a bond between the two. I'm happy that the earring is gone, I'm happy that what happens in 13 happens. As far as I'm concerned it's going according to plan.


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Originally Posted by JackRydden224
I know for sure that I can't take it anymore. If the kiss in episode 10 doesn't get her going then I am not sure what will, catching the two of them in bed?
We should all be glad for episode 13.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampstorm
In episode two, Ranka specifically says that she'd love to be someone like Sheryl just once, but that she knows that it's impossible for her. That view only changes when Sheryl specifically tells Ranka to go after that dream.
Sounds to me that even if she says otherwise, deep inside, she's hoping it would be the opposite. She aspires to be like Sheryl. Besides, someone who bosses her brother around, runs around singing 'Don't be late' in the streets, fangirls over her idol at the risk of being scolded by her manager is not someone who has absolutely zero self-confidence. She already has personality. She just denies herself until someone gives her a push.

Quote:
During the concert, though, Sheryl couldn't just pick herself up. She heard the fans shouting out and tried to be strong again, but she wavered a second time. It's only when she hears Ranka's voice that she is able to regain her strength. So Ranka's involvement was necessary for Sheryl to continue the concert.
Why couldn't she pick herself up? Because she was trying to say goodbye to all the fans that came here to support her. She caught a lump in her throat and she couldn't continue. It doesn't have anything to do at all with herself admitting she's no good. There's nothing in this scene supports that Sheryl's faith in her own capabilities is as low as Alto and Ranka. The girl wasn't crying because she was no good at all lol
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Old 2008-06-11, 21:39   Link #69
Swampstorm
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The thing about Alto is that he tries to deny his past. He never talks about his past and when it is brought up he gets upset. I don't think this is healthy behavior. It one thing to pry into his past without his permission but asking him straightforward about it should not be a concern. He will eventually have to make peace with it and talking about it to someone will be a good start. All that person has to do is ask him about it, without the mocking that usually accompanies it. If he doesn't want to talk about it then you don't have to push but let him know that you'll listen to him if he ever feels like opening up.
Not everyone wants to be helped with their problems. Asking directly is insensitive, because it puts Alto in an uncomfortable position. That's why a more sensitive approach would be to let him bring up the topic and gauge his responses before inquiring further.

While people tease Alto and his kabuki ways, they don't make jokes about his relationship with his father. That's an important distinction.

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Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
Give it you all doesn't mean you won't make mistakes or get embarrassed. She stills continues to show up to the mall and be embarrassed. She didn't stop singing, she didn't run away or go hide. Even though I think she felt like do all of that. She has to overcome her shyness and lack of stage experience but that will come with time.
When you give something your all, then you can't be embarrassed. If you're embarrassed, then it implies that you're bothered by what other people think of you. If you do that, you hold back.

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Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
Ep 10 Ranka says that she doesn't know if she can do either the kissing or the acting. Once she sees Alto and Sheryl kissing, she realizes her own feelings and how they are similar to Mao's. She was definitely uncertain about kissing Alto before seeing their kiss and feeling the desire to want to kiss him also.
Actually, this is a point that I'm unclear on. The way that Ranka said it, it seemed to me like her realization gave her the insight that she needed to play Mao's role, irrespective of the fact that the scene involved Alto. Otherwise, the scene wouldn't be about Ranka understanding Mao, so much as it would be about Ranka trying to get even with Sheryl for the kiss. It seems like the latter would be a much darker turn to Ranka's character development, and it seems less likely because Ranka didn't seem to fully realize it for what it was until she saw it on the big screen.

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Originally Posted by ani_d View Post
Sounds to me that even if she says otherwise, deep inside, she's hoping it would be the opposite. She aspires to be like Sheryl. Besides, someone who bosses her brother around, runs around singing 'Don't be late' in the streets, fangirls over her idol at the risk of being scolded by her manager is not someone who has absolutely zero self-confidence. She already has personality. She just denies herself until someone gives her a push.
That's the thing. She has plenty of people who she can and should draw emotional support from, but she shouldn't need anyone to tell her that she can succeed in the first place. But it looks like she's starting to move past that point already.

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Originally Posted by ani_d View Post
Why couldn't she pick herself up? Because she was trying to say goodbye to all the fans that came here to support her. She caught a lump in her throat and she couldn't continue. It doesn't have anything to do at all with herself admitting she's no good. There's nothing in this scene supports that Sheryl's faith in her own capabilities is as low as Alto and Ranka. The girl wasn't crying because she was no good at all lol
Sheryl herself is surprised to find herself crying. Don't forget that the first thing that she asks after recovering is if she can be a little selfish by dedicating her final song to a certain individual... no, group of individuals who are fighting for Galaxy's safety. Then her hand goes straight to where her missing earring should be. There's something a lot more personal here than just saying goodbye to Frontier.

Sheryl still believes in herself, but that belief is not enough on its own. Everyone needs emotional support from their friends to help them through difficult times. It's all about learning to depend on others without being "dependent". This sounds self-contradictory, but think about it for a bit.
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Old 2008-06-11, 22:20   Link #70
herbert
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Lets see she ran away from home when her brother wouldn't accept her decision to sing. She didn't back down from him after she had made that decision. During the Miss Macross contest she put her all in to it. Yes she was nervous and made some mistakes but she didn't go running off the stage crying. It was most likely her first time on stage and viewed by so many people. When in the Mall once she saw Alto's paper airplane fly by and set her mind to sing there where no one came to listen to her she put her all into it. Later on getting a manager and continuing to sing in that mall. Lets not forget the carrot suit, cute or not, she wouldn't have worn such a embarrassing outfit unless she was giving it her all. When she finally decided to play Mao after seeing Alto and Sheryl kiss she did her best in the movie and didn't hesitate when it came time to kiss Alto.
My bad. I didn't thought of your approach. I should have at least considered that we might have defined thing differently. In my dictionary, when one puts all of oneself into sth, there should be some more 'duration' in it. I don't call any short-term effort as put-all-in. If I do, I would feel I throw this expression around too easily. Likewise, I don't say Sheryl put all in to reclaim her panty, nor I agree Konata put all in study because she tells Kagami that she has spent four hours yesterday night on textbooks (have you watched Lucky Star?). Most of the cases you cited are too easy and can be done without much courage. I can't state my idea any better than to borrow a comment on suicide from Kara no Kyouka. It says something like when you are fated to suffer forever, you only need a second worth of courage to commit suicide but a life-time worth of courage not to, therefore it's too obvious to see which one is easier.

Because of this, the sth I am talking about is not anything ONLY makes one happy or can be achieved by temporary impulses. To reach it, one must go down a long and hard road with the knowledge of its difficulties and likelihood of losing some precious things. Of all MF characters I have seen so far, only two of them at this moment I can say they are definitely put all of them into sth. One is Sheryl to singing career; another is Ozma to protecting Ranka. But there is enough time and space for Ranka to improve, I think. She has shown some of this quality by accepting Mao's role. Just let's wait and see how far she can carry it.

By the way.You don't need agree on me at this. As I said at beginning, I had a different definition and I just told you what is it.
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I believe that their will almost certainly be a trigger event that caused him to decided to quit doing plays and pursue his dream of flying. Understanding this event and helping him make peace with his past will probably be crucial to the eventual winner. While I agree Sheryl has so far the most understand if she doesn't push him to open up then I don't think she'll come out on top. So far we have seen that Ranka talks regularly with Alto. This is mostly her sharing her problems with him but it also gives him a better understanding of her. I think its too early to call but I'd give the edge to Ranka. She lacks courage but when she goes for something she puts her all into it. Alto also seems at times to not to know what to make of Sheryl actions.
I'm sorry to bring this up again. As I failed to put you off with one sentence, I must write much more to state my opinions.

In this case, I think girls need four things to fully capture Alto's past. One is the understanding on Alto's instincts; Two is the ability of interpretation and analysis; Three is the information about Alto's history (and secrets); Four is a close relationship with Alto.

The first one is what Sheryl has but Ranka doesn't. The second one again is what Sheryl has but Ranka doesn't. The third is what Sheryl has more than Ranka but not enough. The forth is a tricky one, as I think Sheryl again has advantage but I'm sure many Ranka fans would disagree whole-heartedly (either they are in Brera's camp or not).

The worst part for Ranka is not that Sheryl leads in all four areas but Sheryl is actively seeking the cracks on Alto. Like she questions Alto in ep 9 why he still attends school as he is already in military (oops, Sheryl is inable or don't care to distinguish SMS from military).
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Old 2008-06-11, 23:50   Link #71
JackRydden224
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The worst part for Ranka is not that Sheryl leads in all four areas but Sheryl is actively seeking the cracks on Alto. Like she questions Alto in ep 9 why he still attends school as he is already in military (oops, Sheryl is inable or don't care to distinguish SMS from military).
In a nutshell, Ranka isn't trying hard enough. Her conversations with Alto has mainly been about herself but Sheryl like you said actively seek the cracks on Alto. Every phone conversation between the two are about what Ranka should do and what Alto's opinion is; hopefully we'll see something different in the up coming episodes.

*I'm not happy at all that Eurocup is delaying Macross but at least Code Geass is still on and SRW A portable comes out next Thursday
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Old 2008-06-12, 01:48   Link #72
Westlo
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From the moment I jumped into this Macross LT wagon, this has been the only thing that I've been writing about when it comes to Alto and Ranka. How is it that I'm avoiding the topic here?
You're not explaining why it would not be consistent, considering you have dodged the question 3-4 times it's becoming clear to me you don't know why.

Quote:
Do you even think that it will be in Ranka's character to give up on Alto for the sake of fame? It would've been 7 episodes ago, but not anymore.
Sigh... didn't we go through this in True Tears? Alto isn't Ranka's (or Sheryl's) to give up. I really hope I don't have to say this like 6-7 times like I did before True Tears 13....

Quote:
During those times, it was Sheryl and Ranka. I listened to it twice too, Ranka's voice was in there. They were hearing her through the earring. Ranka sang, Brera heard. It wasn't Sheryl Brera hunted down. It was Ranka, wasn't it? =_= Sheryl and her earrings were used as a bridge for plot development.
I said Ranka's voice was in there but not at the part where Brera goes "that's", in fact it's right after he says that. For that little 10 seconds it goes Sheryl, Ranka, Sheryl, both *earring sparkles* back to cd quality. Are you unable to notice the 3 changes in vocals in that scene? I also fail to see how Brera recognizing the voice of Grace's charge (and Grace is also in charge of him) and the most recognizable person from Galaxy (where he's from!) has anything to do with him stalking Ranka and not Sheryl.

Quote:
You gotta realize I see things a bit different, when most people were jumping overboard at the end of episode 6 in True Tears I was more confident than ever. Same for "bad" scenes for the ones I was predicting in Kimikiss, ef, KGNE, VK (you know those "revelations"). Ranka gaining the ascendancy at that point just makes me even more confident.

Quote:
Why couldn't she pick herself up? Because she was trying to say goodbye to all the fans that came here to support her. She caught a lump in her throat and she couldn't continue.
Yes she dedicated her last song to a certain someone and touched her ear where the earring she gave Alto use to be because she couldn't say goodbye to her fans

I'm curious by the way... if your "trump card" hasn't been said in the first 24 episodes even you have to admit that Ranka is done for. Because it's pretty obvious what context it will be used in for a final episode if Ranka isn't in any immediate danger.

Spoiler:

Last edited by Westlo; 2008-06-12 at 02:14.
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Old 2008-06-12, 01:55   Link #73
nines
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I would be so into this thread but every ones post is sooooo long
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Old 2008-06-12, 02:37   Link #74
Slick_rick
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Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
Not everyone wants to be helped with their problems. Asking directly is insensitive, because it puts Alto in an uncomfortable position. That's why a more sensitive approach would be to let him bring up the topic and gauge his responses before inquiring further.

While people tease Alto and his kabuki ways, they don't make jokes about his relationship with his father. That's an important distinction.
If you can't ask a friend directly about his/her problems then you're truly not a friend. Being overly sensitive is what makes people overlook the warning signs of depression and suicidal behavior. Even if that person yells at you and tells you its none of your business. It's better to let that person know that you're there from them if they need you than to ignore the issue.

There is no distinction actually in Alto's mind. Why do you think he get upset about when they tease him about Kabuki? Part of the reason is certainly that it makes him think of his relationship with his father among others unresolved issues. Ignore these issues isn't good but making fun of them is probably worse.


Quote:
When you give something your all, then you can't be embarrassed. If you're embarrassed, then it implies that you're bothered by what other people think of you. If you do that, you hold back.
I can't define it so narrowly. When I was a kid I did acting and I put my all in that. I woke up early, took acting classes, and when took tons of casting calls. I still had to do schoolwork. But that doesn't mean that I didn't get embarrassed, make mistakes, or didn't have doubts. Even the great Sheryl almost certainly got embarrassed at times and had doubts but she overcame that. Ranka has to work though her shy nature but she still continues to move forward. If she didn't get embarrassed or makes mistakes I'd say she'd being acting out of character.


Quote:
Actually, this is a point that I'm unclear on. The way that Ranka said it, it seemed to me like her realization gave her the insight that she needed to play Mao's role, irrespective of the fact that the scene involved Alto. Otherwise, the scene wouldn't be about Ranka understanding Mao, so much as it would be about Ranka trying to get even with Sheryl for the kiss. It seems like the latter would be a much darker turn to Ranka's character development, and it seems less likely because Ranka didn't seem to fully realize it for what it was until she saw it on the big screen.
What was that insight? It was that exactly the line you heard spoken during the kiss scene. "Look at me too." It's not dark to want the person you like to like you back. Especially if they're not married or in a relationship and even then we're only human. Ranka was embarrassed to have her first kiss being shown on the big screen in front of all her friends. That was all.
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Old 2008-06-12, 03:36   Link #75
ani_d
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Age: 28
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
You're not explaining why it would not be consistent, considering you have dodged the question 3-4 times it's becoming clear to me you don't know why.
Reasons why a 'happy' superidol single Ranka ending will be inconsistent: (In a nutshell)

-Take note, that the supergalactic mecha love story didn't begin with Alto and Sheryl hitting it off, it was about Alto and Ranka having an interesting encounter. (ep. 1) Also, if you notice after they separated, Alto's after comment on Ranka was: "What a strange, woman." Then he smiled. He said, 'Onna', woman lol
-Alto and Ranka both inspired each other to take the next step to their own paths. Ranka to Ms. Macross, Alto to SMS.
-The two became close friends. Texting, chatting, more texting, and more chatting in the future episodes.
-Alto and Ranka's relationship was developed little by little in the first four episodes, sealing it off in the Nyan Nyan restaurant when Mikhail accidentally pushed Ranka to Alto.
-Alto does get linked with Sheryl, but despite that, the Alto and Ranka 'platonic' bond that happened in the first 4 episodes was never forgotten since it did nothing to Ranka but develop stronger feelings for Alto. (Just a fact that the writer isn't being inconsistent here)
-Despite the Sheryl invasion, the two are still shown to be really close as Alto even sneaks away from his job just to listen to Ranka. And mind you, Ranka doesn't have to force him. ^_^ There's no doubt Sheryl's spending more time with Alto, but where is the camera looking at? Ranka's side of the boat.
-Ranka sees strength in Alto. She shined the brightest everytime she incorporates Alto in her thoughts. First at the Folmo, now in the movie when she admitted her feelings for him and acted it out.
-Check out how Alto treats everyone around him and compare it to how he treats Ranka. He becomes a different person whenever he's talking to Ranka one on one. You might call it brotherly, but Ranka did make Alto blush more than Sheryl ever did. Just goes to show you that Alto doesn't see Ranka as nothing but an underdeveloped little sister. And that's a huuuge potential.
-Lastly, now that Ranka finally figured out her feelings for Alto, stardom will not pry her away from him. I doubt she's just going to be an ingrate who will forget the person who did a lot for her--in many ways-- to get to where she's at.


=Judging from future spoilers, it seems like the progression of Ranka and Alto's relationship will just develop even more for the better. Once it develops for the better, it's going to be really hard to bastardize the relationship so that a SherylxAlto ending will happen unless they kill Ranka. This is why for the 9053522th time, it's going to be incosistent, if suddenly, the character relationships suddenly flip flopped and Ranka was put on the sidelines for a Sheryl and Alto development. Even if there was a development, most likely will, spending halfway of the series developing Alto and Ranka's character relationship and then throwing it to the dirt is utterly ridiculous. It's not going to work.

Now if you please Westlo, I obediently complied here. It's your turn to state your view of why you think a non-SherylxAlto ending will be inconsistent. Please let's omit the Kawamori history and OP/ED casting, homage, Macross SDF references and just stay in Macross Frontier. I would like to hear your stronger reasons based on what we were given in the story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo
You gotta realize I see things a bit different, when most people were jumping overboard at the end of episode 6 in True Tears I was more confident than ever. Same for Kimikiss, same for ef, same for KGNE, same for VK. Ranka gaining the ascendancy at that point just makes me even more confident.
What a coincidence, I saw the same thing for those other shows you mentioned. Only difference is, I suddenly saw a Noe ending in Episode 11. That's that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo
Yes she dedicated her last song to a certain someone and touched her ear where the earring she gave Alto use to be because she couldn't say goodbye to her fans
Sheryl cried because she was touched--touched by Alto, her fans, and the fact that this was her supposedly last concert in Frontier. Again, not because she believes she was "no good" like how Alto and Ranka think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo
I'm curious by the way... if your "trumpcard" hasn't been said in the first 24 episodes you gotta admit that it's GG for Ranka don't you?
By that time, there's going to be a new trump card. I'm leaving it all to Kawamori since I know he's a consistent writer.
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Old 2008-06-12, 03:51   Link #76
Tsuchiro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ani_d View Post
Reasons why a 'happy' superidol single Ranka ending will be inconsistent: (In a nutshell)

-Take note, that the supergalactic mecha love story didn't begin with Alto and Sheryl hitting it off, it was about Alto and Ranka having an interesting encounter. (ep. 1) Also, if you notice after they separated, Alto's after comment on Ranka was: "What a strange, woman." Then he smiled. He said, 'Onna', woman lol
-Alto and Ranka both inspired each other to take the next step to their own paths. Ranka to Ms. Macross, Alto to SMS.
-The two became close friends. Texting, chatting, more texting, and more chatting in the future episodes.
-Alto and Ranka's relationship was developed little by little in the first four episodes, sealing it off in the Nyan Nyan restaurant when Mikhail accidentally pushed Ranka to Alto.
-Alto does get linked with Sheryl, but despite that, the Alto and Ranka 'platonic' bond that happened in the first 4 episodes was never forgotten since it did nothing to Ranka but develop stronger feelings for Alto. (Just a fact that the writer isn't being inconsistent here)
-Despite the Sheryl invasion, the two are still shown to be really close as Alto even sneaks away from his job just to listen to Ranka. And mind you, Ranka doesn't have to force him. ^_^ There's no doubt Sheryl's spending more time with Alto, but where is the camera looking at? Ranka's side of the boat.
-Ranka sees strength in Alto. She shined the brightest everytime she incorporates Alto in her thoughts. First at the Folmo, now in the movie when she admitted her feelings for him and acted it out.
-Check out how Alto treats everyone around him and compare it to how he treats Ranka. He becomes a different person whenever he's talking to Ranka one on one. You might call it brotherly, but Ranka did make Alto blush more than Sheryl ever did. Just goes to show you that Alto doesn't see Ranka as nothing but an underdeveloped little sister. And that's a huuuge potential.
-Lastly, now that Ranka finally figured out her feelings for Alto, stardom will not pry her away from him. I doubt she's just going to be an ingrate who will forget the person who did a lot for her--in many ways-- to get to where she's at.


=Judging from future spoilers, it seems like the progression of Ranka and Alto's relationship will just develop even more for the better. Once it develops for the better, it's going to be really hard to bastardize the relationship so that a SherylxAlto ending will happen unless they kill Ranka. This is why for the 9053522th time, it's going to be incosistent, if suddenly, the character relationships suddenly flip flopped and Ranka was put on the sidelines for a Sheryl and Alto development. Even if there was a development, most likely will, spending halfway of the series developing Alto and Ranka's character relationship and then throwing it to the dirt is utterly ridiculous. It's not going to work.

Now if you please Westlo, I obediently complied here. It's your turn to state your view of why you think a non-SherylxAlto ending will be inconsistent. Please let's omit the Kawamori history and OP/ED casting, homage, Macross SDF references and just stay in Macross Frontier. I would like to hear your stronger reasons based on what we were given in the story.
did you ever watch sdf macross? because that list you came up with is almost exactly like how hikaru and minmei were.
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Old 2008-06-12, 03:54   Link #77
Westlo
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Join Date: May 2007
I'll get to the rest later, going to see a movie in 20 minutes.

Quote:
Now if you please Westlo, I obediently complied here. It's your turn to state your view of why you think a non-SherylxAlto ending will be inconsistent. Please let's omit the Kawamori history and OP/ED casting, homage, Macross SDF references and just stay in Macross Frontier. I would like to hear your stronger reasons based on what we were given in the story.
Ah but you see I'm not the one saying a Ranka ending would mean that it isn't consistent. If you read my posts you will see I'm actually rather open to the possibilities of a Ranka ending. And if this wasn't a Kawamori series I'll be saying it's 90-10 in Ranka's favor because Sheryl's archetype loses 90% of the time in anime and Ranka is the safe, boring, conventional winner.

I'm not the one who's being stubborn and shouting INCONSISTENT INCONSISTENT if my pairing doesn't get it's way even though we still have 15 episodes to go through.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsuchiro View Post
did you ever watch sdf macross? because that list you came out almost turn actually like how hikaru and minemi were.
She watched an episode or two and than read the Wiki, instant expert. She was arguing with me on Omni's blog that Misa's banter with Hikaru in the first episode meant more than Minmei did in the initial episodes.
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Old 2008-06-12, 04:06   Link #78
herbert
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Join Date: Dec 2006
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
Alto isn't Ranka's (or Sheryl's) to give up.
Sheryl has the ownership over Alto. You dare disagree?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
If you can't ask a friend directly about his/her problems then you're truly not a friend. Being overly sensitive is what makes people overlook the warning signs of depression and suicidal behavior. Even if that person yells at you and tells you its none of your business. It's better to let that person know that you're there from them if they need you than to ignore the issue.

There is no distinction actually in Alto's mind. Why do you think he get upset about when they tease him about Kabuki? Part of the reason is certainly that it makes him think of his relationship with his father among others unresolved issues. Ignore these issues isn't good but making fun of them is probably worse.
I can't believe you are saying this. Do you seriously make straightforward inquiries on your friends' privacies?

I am kidding. I know there are some cases a real friend better behaving as what you suggest. But Alto is a different case. For one, either of girls is close enough to Alto to open him up; and two, either of them knows enough of Alto to venture that deep into Alto's heart. As people's hearts are always criticla areas, any misstep may ruin relationship. Girls are better to spend more time getting closer to Alto and gathering more knowledge of him, and this is what Sheryl is doing.

At this moment, Alto isn't ready and Sheryl isn't ready. But Sheryl is preparing for it and waiting for best timing to open Alto up. I'd say she is doing the smartest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
I can't define it so narrowly. When I was a kid I did acting and I put my all in that. I woke up early, took acting classes, and when took tons of casting calls. I still had to do schoolwork. But that doesn't mean that I didn't get embarrassed, make mistakes, or didn't have doubts. Even the great Sheryl almost certainly got embarrassed at times and had doubts but she overcame that. Ranka has to work though her shy nature but she still continues to move forward. If she didn't get embarrassed or makes mistakes I'd say she'd being acting out of character.
I have said (even though I'm not sure if you have seen) the term is open for anyone to define. After all, its definition not matters, its effect matters. If you define in this way, then Ranka's put-all-in is not enough and is still too retarded. If behaving any better is out of character, then she needs to be out of character to open Alto up. You may lower requirements when it comes to Ranka and rise when Sheryl in question, but Alto treats girls equally.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
What was that insight? It was that exactly the line you heard spoken during the kiss scene. "Look at me too." It's not dark to want the person you like to like you back. Especially if they're not married or in a relationship and even then we're only human. Ranka was embarrassed to have her first kiss being shown on the big screen in front of all her friends. That was all.
Reread Westlo's post, he means that if Ranka accepts the role only in sake of kissing Alto, it would be a negative character development but he thinks it's not very likely.
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Old 2008-06-12, 04:51   Link #79
ickem
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by ani_d View Post
Reasons why a 'happy' superidol single Ranka ending will be inconsistent: (In a nutshell)

-Take note, that the supergalactic mecha love story didn't begin with Alto and Sheryl hitting it off, it was about Alto and Ranka having an interesting encounter. (ep. 1) Also, if you notice after they separated, Alto's after comment on Ranka was: "What a strange, woman." Then he smiled. He said, 'Onna', woman lol
Well Misa and Hikaru weren't the best of friends in their first encounter. Onna can mean either girl or woman. I can't see how anyone can see Ranka as anything but a girl really, and one that appears younger than she is.

Quote:
-Alto and Ranka both inspired each other to take the next step to their own paths. Ranka to Ms. Macross, Alto to SMS.
-The two became close friends. Texting, chatting, more texting, and more chatting in the future episodes.
-Alto and Ranka's relationship was developed little by little in the first four episodes, sealing it off in the Nyan Nyan restaurant when Mikhail accidentally pushed Ranka to Alto.
-Alto does get linked with Sheryl, but despite that, the Alto and Ranka 'platonic' bond that happened in the first 4 episodes was never forgotten since it did nothing to Ranka but develop stronger feelings for Alto. (Just a fact that the writer isn't being inconsistent here)
-Despite the Sheryl invasion, the two are still shown to be really close as Alto even sneaks away from his job just to listen to Ranka. And mind you, Ranka doesn't have to force him. ^_^ There's no doubt Sheryl's spending more time with Alto, but where is the camera looking at? Ranka's side of the boat.
Actually it was Sheryl that spurred both of them into reaching for their dreams in episode three. Sheryl was the one who told her that the Miss Macross pageant was her chance. As for the platonic bond between the two fraying, it isn't like they stopped talking with each other when Sheryl came to the fore so I'm not sure what that has to do with this. Of course, Sheryl and Alto also phone each other to talk too. Ranka and Alto are just friends at this point, just like Alto and Sheryl. And it didn't seem like Alto was "sneaking" away to speak with Ranka. It was more like the shooting had stopped so that they could make preparations such as hooking Sheryl up to the wires. Well, we were watching from Ranka's point of view because it was a Ranka centric episode since Bird Human is shot from Mao's point of view...

Quote:
-Ranka sees strength in Alto. She shined the brightest everytime she incorporates Alto in her thoughts. First at the Folmo, now in the movie when she admitted her feelings for him and acted it out.
-Check out how Alto treats everyone around him and compare it to how he treats Ranka. He becomes a different person whenever he's talking to Ranka one on one. You might call it brotherly, but Ranka did make Alto blush more than Sheryl ever did. Just goes to show you that Alto doesn't see Ranka as nothing but an underdeveloped little sister. And that's a huuuge potential.
-Lastly, now that Ranka finally figured out her feelings for Alto, stardom will not pry her away from him. I doubt she's just going to be an ingrate who will forget the person who did a lot for her--in many ways-- to get to where she's at.
I don't think anyone is arguing that Ranka is going to just toss her friends aside because of stardom, but it is the fact that being a celebrity is going to force some distance between them. It's harder for her since she is just starting out while Sheryl had no one to distance herself from when she was on her path to stardom. I don't really see a change in his personality when he's with Ranka. The reason that he treats her the way he does is because she doesn't push any of his buttons and she comes to him for advice. When she isn't asking for advice and encouragement in becoming a singer he is just as brusque and seemingly uninterested with her as with his other friends, i.e. when Michel first announces that they will show her around.

P.S. When has Alto blushed because of Ranka? I know that Ranka blushes around him a lot, but I really don't remember if he has blushed around her.
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Old 2008-06-12, 04:58   Link #80
Tsuchiro
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Originally Posted by ickem View Post
P.S. When has Alto blushed because of Ranka? I know that Ranka blushes around him a lot, but I really don't remember if he has blushed around her.
once so far in epsiode 3 " you're so mean, Alto-Kun!"
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