Character Discussion - C.C

[Lugia_Tsuyu]

Originally Posted by Tael

How could she have not just done it at the start of her existence as an immortal?

C.C.: "Ok, my life sucks because of this code. My contract should be for them to take it away and let me live my life the way I want."

I think it's because C.C. is too kind. She choose to give her code to Charles in Ep. 15 because she also think Lelouch is too kind to deserve such cruel thing.

[Tael]

Originally Posted by whiter

She didn't realize it untill it was too late, or atleast it appears so, or maybe there wasn't anyone to take the code away from her/make contract with her, untill it was too late.

Until it was too late for what? For her to make a logical decision of taking the prick out of her finger? This is a rather crude and simplified example but hear me out: It's like a splinter that gets shoved deep into your finger. You can have it removed, but in stead you just have your finger cut off. That is what C.C.'s contract is basically doing. She's cutting off her finger to get rid of the splinter. Why not just take out the splinter? Sure it will be difficult and painful.

Originally Posted by Lugia_Tsuyu

I think it's because C.C. is too kind. She choose to give her code to Charles in Ep. 15 because she also think Lelouch is too kind to deserve such cruel thing.

I'm confused as to what this has to do with the conversation at hand.

[whiter]

Originally Posted by Lugia_Tsuyu

I think it's because C.C. is too kind. She choose to give her code to Charles in Ep. 15 because she also think Lelouch is too kind to deserve such cruel thing.

In Lelouch case yes, as she cares for him, but if we assume that she has had other contracts the case wouldn't be that tbh. She was looking for death quite desperately, you know.

[Kusaja]

Originally Posted by Tael

But this brings up the same problem, what stops her contract from having been something that just removes the code, that which makes her suffer, and give her back her life. She knows what makes her life terrible, if she removes it, her life would have a chance at normalcy. But she never sought that option.

I can't read her mind, but I suppose she doesn't want to get her previous life back at all then, because she is tired of the entire concept of "living" and wishes to die already, in both mind and body. Perhaps she doesn't even see any value in her past self, since those memories are vague and long gone, not being actual representations of her current persona, wanting to put an end to her very existence.

V.V.'s contract does involve death, more or less, in that he'd cease to exist and himself. The aspect of immortality would not matter when no one can die or live in a pool of LCL.

As part of the Ragnarok Connection...but that applies to the entire world, contract or no contract, immortal or not.

That seems more like her own fault than anyone else's.

I admit she is at fault, but her decisions are shaped by her own situation and her perception of it. Not ours.

But her life lacked meaning because of the code, that is what people keep telling me anyway. So if that were the case, losing the code should be her contract, not dying. There is no reason for her to just jump onto death when it isn't death that grants her anything, but it is her code that keeps her from achieving what she wants.

That is a good point, but perhaps that would make her "death" meaningless too, when her objective is to give it meaning and end it all. It could be seen as a cop-out, not closure, even out of pride if it comes to that. What would live on without the Code wouldn't be "her" current persona, and she may subconsciously have given up on lasting happiness already, in any form.

I don't think you are understanding my point. Her code is what makes her hate her existence, if she can remove the code, she has no reason to just seek death immediately afterwards. Especially if her wish is to be loved. If she can remove her code, she can remove all her dealing with Geass, and can go live a normal life with several hundred years of experience allowing her to be, more or less, like Horo.

But see above. That experience would be erased through memory reset as was the case with V.V. apparently. Also, her original wish is something she had given up on or even forgotten until recently.

[whiter]

Originally Posted by Tael

Until it was too late for what? For her to make a logical decision of taking the prick out of her finger? This is a rather crude and simplified example but hear me out: It's like a splinter that gets shoved deep into your finger. You can have it removed, but in stead you just have your finger cut off. That is what C.C.'s contract is basically doing. She's cutting off her finger to get rid of the splinter. Why not just take out the splinter? Sure it will be difficult and painful.

Lets just say, too late for her to remember the past and the value of life as it stands, she grew bored of living and began to seek for death corrupted by the thought that her life wouldn't change even after loosing the immortality.

[Tael]

Originally Posted by Kusaja

I can't read her mind, but I suppose she doesn't want to get her previous life back at all then, because she is tired of the entire concept of "living" and wishes to die already, in both mind and body. Perhaps she doesn't even see any value in her past self, since those memories are vague and long gone, not being actual representations of her current persona, wanting to put an end to her very existence.

Valid point. But she is tired with fake living, once death is reintroduced into the equation her life becomes quite real and quite limited. Even if she wanted nothing to do with her past life, which by virtue of being immortal would be made irrelevant, she can live a new life. If she has the ability to start over, why not take it?

Originally Posted by Kusaja

As part of the Ragnarok Connection, but that applies to the entire world, contract or no contract, immortal or not.

Well I meant that V.V. would never remain immortal if his contract succeeded. So he has nothing to fear from the prospect of immortality.

Originally Posted by Kusaja

That is a good point, but perhaps that would make her "death" meaningless too, when her objective is to give it meaning and end it all. It could be seen as a cop-out, not closure, even out of pride if it comes to that.

I don't really understand how living a genuine life could make her death meaningless. What gives it meaning in just committing suicide exactly?

Originally Posted by Kusaja

That experience would be erased through memory reset as was the case with V.V. apparently and see above for the other points. Also her original wish is something she had given up on or even forgotten until recently.

You share my opinion on the matter but I'm arguing from the perspective of C.C. not disappearing once her code is lost.

Originally Posted by whiter

Lets just say, too late for her to remember the past and the value of life as it stands, she grew bored of living and began to seek for death corrupted by the thought that her life wouldn't change even after loosing the immortality.

But that's simply not true. Upon losing immortality her life would change if by nothing more than becoming finite. It just feels like she's cutting off her nose to spite her face.

[Asleep]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Um... Yes? The Code Removal doesn't kill the person. Look at V.V.. He didn't die because his Code was removed. he died because he had traumatic injuries. After the Code was removed, he couldn't survive. Thus died. They can die after the Code so obviously when the Nun forced the Code onto C.C. she probably wounded herself so she would die after the transfer. But if they lose the Code it doesn't mean they will die because of it.

Originally Posted by Tael

I thought that everyone here was arguing about C.C. losing her code and remaining. I share your opinion on that the loss of the code being fatal (in that their identity is erased like we had with young C.C. and what seemingly happened to V.V.) but I don't think this applies to the conversation. I'm confused now.

Are you telling me losing code doesn't necessarily mean the person has to die?
You can't lose your code and live as a mortal. I thought losing code = death How can someone take away her code and immortality? Why else would she want to die? She could just be mortal. I thought ep 15 made it pretty clear when they lose their code they die?

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Asleep

Are you telling me losing code doesn't necessarily mean the person has to die?
You can't lose your code and live as a mortal. I thought losing code = death How can someone take away her code and immortality? Why else would she want to die? She could just be mortal. I thought ep 15 made it pretty clear when they lose their code they die?

I didn't get that same impression at all. They would lose their Memories of before getting their Geass/Code, but I don't see it as being instant death if the Code is taken away.

[Asleep]

Originally Posted by Orga777

I didn't get that same impression at all. They would lose their Memories of before getting their Geass, but I don't see it as being instant death if the Code is taken away.

If so, she could lose her code and then kill her herself or die out of old age. Why the need to form a contract?

[whiter]

Originally Posted by Tael

But that's simply not true. Upon losing immortality her life would change if by nothing more than becoming finite. It just feels like she's cutting off her nose to spite her face.

Her life as living in solitude wouldn't change, that's what I'm implying if you didn't catch it despite the numberous examples, and she's tired of living in solitude.

[Tael]

Originally Posted by Asleep

Are you telling me losing code doesn't necessarily mean the person has to die?
You can't lose your code and live as a mortal. I thought losing code = death How can someone take away her code and immortality? Why else would she want to die? She could just be mortal. I thought ep 15 made it pretty clear when they lose their code they die?

Originally Posted by Orga777

I didn't get that same impression at all. They would lose their Memories of before getting their Geass/Code, but I don't see it as being instant death if the Code is taken away.

I think I fell through the looking glass because I have no idea where I am any more. Asleep, you bring up exactly why I am trying to figure out why her contract is too seek death. As I said in my very first post on this matter, if the loss of the Code returns the code carrier their life, then the contract makes no sense. Something is missing.

Originally Posted by whiter

Her life as living in solitude wouldn't change, that's what I'm implying if you didn't catch it despite the numberous examples, and she's tired of living in solitude.

But, again, the code is the cause of that solitude. Her inability to die, and the fact that she sees everyone die around her, is the cause of that solitude. Once she loses that code, she is no longer isolated by that fact. This is why I am saying that seeking death is simply cutting off her nose to spite her face.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Asleep

If so, she could lose her code and then kill her herself or die out of old age. Why the need to form a contract?

That is what people are trying to figure out. It seems to be the common reason is because she just doesn't want to live anymore. We are trying to figure out why that is so.

[Kusaja]

Originally Posted by Tael

Valid point. But she is tired with fake living, once death is reintroduced into the equation her life becomes quite real and quite limited. Even if she wanted nothing to do with her past life, which by virtue of being immortal would be made irrelevant, she can live a new life. If she has the ability to start over, why not take it?

I figure it's because she didn't have the desire to give herself that opportunity, once she actively started seeking death. Human beings can be quite stubborn, irrational and self-destructive when their emotions get in the way, even when there are still valid options before them. The show may spell this out in detail or give us a more specific explanation, if there's still time (unlikely though).

Well I meant that V.V. would never remain immortal if his contract succeeded. So he has nothing to fear from the prospect of immortality.

Until the Ragnarok Connection was implemented he'd still have to endure living in a child's body, which wouldn't be the best thing in the world, especially seeing his younger brother Charles grow up and live a complete life before he ever could.

I don't really understand how living a genuine life could make her death meaningless. What gives it meaning in just committing suicide exactly?

You do realize that Japanese culture does tend to give a great intrinsic value to suicide...because of honor, pride or other similar reasons?

Even in situations were most of us wouldn't even consider that a rational option, an "honorable death" is not seen as taboo.

[whiter]

Originally Posted by Tael

I
But, again, the code is the cause of that solitude. Her inability to die, and the fact that she sees everyone die around her, is the cause of that solitude. Once she loses that code, she is no longer isolated by that fact. This is why I am saying that seeking death is simply cutting off her nose to spite her face.

And I'm telling you that she has been corrupted by the immortality as she has forgotten what is was before the immortality and what is the value of life.
Hence she assumes her life would continue the way it's now; living in solitude that is.

Originally Posted by Orga777

That is what people are trying to figure out. It seems to be the common reason is because she just doesn't want to live anymore. We are trying to figure out why that is so.

Read my posts within 3 pages or something, I'm trying to offer some reasoning for it.

[Asleep]

Originally Posted by Orga777

That is what people are trying to figure out. It seems to be the common reason is because she just doesn't want to live anymore. We are trying to figure out why that is so.

Then the Nun could have also locked up her code and killed herself. I think C.C. unconsciously locked away her code. I don't think you can do it consciously. Didn't she say something like the code bearers gave out geass in order to die? So that they reach a level where they would be able to kill them. If you can do it yourself Code Geass loses its meaning.

[Tael]

Originally Posted by Kusaja

I figure it's because she didn't have the desire to give herself that opportunity, once she actively started seeking death. Human beings can be quite stubborn, irrational and self-destructive when their emotions get in the way, even when there are still valid options before them. The show may spell this out in detail or give us a more specific explanation, if there's still time (unlikely though).

Again, valid point, but this brings back the idea that all her contracts have always been this way. She'd have to have been incredibly stubborn to overlook all possibilities, especially a simple one as just losing her code, to start seeking death.

Originally Posted by Kusaja

Until the Ragnarok Connection was implemented he'd still have to endure living in a child's body, which wouldn't be the best thing in the world, especially seeing his younger brother Charles grow up and live a complete life before he ever could.

V.V. clearly never grew up though. His killing out of jealousy paints him like a jealous kid. But he never seemed to mind. But this doesn't have much to do with C.C..

Originally Posted by Kusaja

You do realize that Japanese culture does tend to give a great intrinsic value to suicide...because of honor, pride or other similar reasons?

Even in situations were most of us wouldn't even consider that a rational option.

C.C. is not Japanese. So while it would apply to a Japanese in the story, I doubt it would apply to a seemingly European girl with green hair. Further, that intrinsic value has waned significantly in modern years to the point that the Japanese are trying to discourage suicide.

Originally Posted by whiter

And I'm telling you that she has been corrupted by the immortality as she has forgotten what is was before the immortality and what is the value of life.
Hence she assumes her life would continue the way it's now; living in solitude that is.

I'm sorry but then I'd just have to say she's blind, and that her reasons are short sighted and cowardly. She has the possibility of a second lease on life. Nothing is to say that her life, once it loses the cause of her isolation, would still be isolated. Nothing.

[Kusaja]

Originally Posted by Tael

Again, valid point, but this brings back the idea that all her contracts have always been this way. She'd have to have been incredibly stubborn to overlook all possibilities, especially a simple one as just losing her code, to start seeking death.

I don't disagree with that idea...once she started making contracts, that is. C.C. is in fact pretty stubborn already, as the show has demonstrated several times...even to humorous effect. This is just applying that in a dramatic direction. Once she convinced herself that eternal life had no meaning, she made a choice and set a final death as her goal.

But this doesn't have much to do with C.C..

I guess.

C.C. is not Japanese. So while it would apply to a Japanese in the story, I doubt it would apply to a seemingly European girl with green hair. Further, that intrinsic value has waned significantly in modern years to the point that the Japanese are trying to discourage suicide.

True, but the writers are Japanese and male (at least the main one), last time I checked, and they might have carried along that cultural baggage into their characterization of C.C. as a fictional character in a fictional world.

The concept is not alien to them, and even today suicide is actually still significantly present in Japan, despite that discouragement. C.C.'s story might even serve to make a point, in one direction or another.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Asleep

Then the Nun could have also locked up her code and killed herself. I think C.C. unconsciously locked away her code. I don't think you can do it consciously. Didn't she say something like the code bearers gave out geass in order to die? So that they reach a level where they would be able to kill them. If you can do it yourself Code Geass loses its meaning.

You see, that locking away of the Code is a strange case. And Marianne said that C.C. did it on her own in 20 when they met up. It also seems to point out that C.C. has done that before. Locking away the Code may not be able to stop Immortality, just memory Loss. The thing that is being discussed is if she TRANSFERS the Code to someone else, she will be alive still. Which I think is a good possibility.

[whiter]

Originally Posted by Tael

I'm sorry but then I'd just have to say she's blind, and that her reasons are short sighted and cowardly. She has the possibility of a second lease on life. Nothing is to say that her life, once it loses the cause of her isolation, would still be isolated. Nothing.

Maybe she's not aware that the immortality is what creates the solitude.
And if she doesn't remember how the life was with out immortality, how is she supposed to know what lies ahead when she gives the code away. It's only natural to assume that things will continue as they stand now, if they posses no knowledge over how it was before and how it should be.

[Tael]

Originally Posted by Kusaja

Once she convinced herself that eternal life had no meaning, she made a choice and set a final death as her goal.

If eternal life is terrible, wouldn't the most basic instinct be to stop living eternally? Death seems like a rather far off reach since few creatures would just look at death as if it were their warm teddy bear.

Originally Posted by whiter

Maybe she's not aware that the immortality is what creates the solitude.
And if she doesn't remember how the life was with out immortality, how is she supposed to know what lies ahead when she gives the code away. It's only natural to assume that things will continue as they stand now, if they posses no knowledge over how it was before and how it should be.

How could she not realize it? I'm honestly perplexed as to how she could possibly rationalize anything other than the immortality, that which makes everything around her eventually disappear, as to not being the source of everything eventually disappearing around her...