[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 3 Banquet of the golden witch

[GyroidFanatic]

Crap, I don't know what to believe after Episode 3.

But I did notice a small thing that someone might have overlooked during ????:

Spoiler:

The person chasing Ange at the very end was a Siesta Sister, #20.

[Klashikari]

Huh... I think the number was just a coincidence. The guard being a siesta is kinda far fetched.

[Christen]

I'll probably read the WHOLE thread later after I get my sleep. Just a few thoughts before I doze off, and pardon me if it has already been raised:

Spoiler:

1. There is the possibility of more than 2 groups working on different agendas.
2. Kinzo never appeared and thus it is possible to say that he is not on the island during those two days. This doesn't contradict the red text that was provided by Eva Beatrice.
3. On the previous episodes, Eva was dead. This can support #1 if it's proven to be true.
4. The existence of a 19th person in EP2 hasn't been discredited yet, neither is on EP1. With this, it is possible that some pre-requisites must happen for the Eva-culprit scenario to occur (one is solving the epitaph of course).

That's that for now.

[k//eternal]

Spoiler:

I actually privately thought the guard's number was a "reference" to the Siestas and was meant to be worth a chuckle, but I doubt they were an actual Siesta.

[Christen]

Did anyone notice these things?

Spoiler for epitaph's riddle:

The number 6 comes out very often in some words. I can't complete discount it as coincidence. Six is then number given in the first twilight.

1. The Ushiromiya name. It has 5 characters but let's take a look at the kanji.
右代宮
the readings used for this one is うしろみや. The kanji used for う is the kanji for 右 or みぎ. This way, it becomes 6 characters. On a side note, the kanji 代 can also be read as だい. I'm not sure of it's significance but another kanji of だい is 大. I don't have knowledge of kanji so I can't say if I'm making sense.

2. Rokkenjima. 六軒島 means six eaves island. Again, the number 6 appears. Rokkenjima is also 6 characters when transcribed into hiragana (ろっけんじま). Removing the island from Rokkenjima leaves us with "Rokken" which means six eaves but also has 6 characters in romaji. This might be stretching it, but is still considerable.

3. Beatrice is ベアトリチェ in katakana and is composed of 6 characters. This may be a stretch though since nothing really is "changed".

What makes me think is Eva's hint that originally, it cannot be read by 6 characters. It will transform into 6 characters if you read it another way. Another thing is Eva did look on an atlas. What if Rokkenjima is the "village at the end of the river?" It is simple in a sense.

It is another farfetched thought, but what if Rokkenjima isn't really an island?

Sooner or later this claim might be disproved, but as long as it isn't been disproven, the possibility doesn't disappear (is this what you call the Probatio Diabolica?).

[lovelysan]

Finished episode 3 and now I'm tired and depressed. Tired, becasue I stayed up entirely too late to play and depressed because...

Spoiler for epi 3 ending stuffs:

That I LIKED remorseful/pouting maybe-a-Battler fan Beatrice ;_; . Sure, it got corny as hell at the party at the end before she became her more evil self again but...

.....*sigh* ;_; .


Also kinda depressed that Lambdadelta is so.... well, cruel when Bern isn't around.


...... *double sigh*



Also, Ange's backstory in this game is depressing as hell as well.


....*sigh* That said. If we disregard any magic elements, I think this game made it abundantly clear that there HAS to be more than 1 killer on the island. Heck, I suspect there may be quite a few. Just a lot of the characters simply "taking care" of their own personal grudges, trying to take advantage of the situation, and then things just spiraling out of control.

....Yeeep, lots of things to think and obsess about again. heh.

[Mikachiru]

Originally Posted by Christen

Did anyone notice these things?

Spoiler for epitaph's riddle:

The number 6 comes out very often in some words. I can't complete discount it as coincidence. Six is then number given in the first twilight.

1. The Ushiromiya name. It has 5 characters but let's take a look at the kanji.
右代宮
the readings used for this one is うしろみや. The kanji used for う is the kanji for 右 or みぎ. This way, it becomes 6 characters. On a side note, the kanji 代 can also be read as だい. I'm not sure of it's significance but another kanji of だい is 大. I don't have knowledge of kanji so I can't say if I'm making sense.

2. Rokkenjima. 六軒島 means six eaves island. Again, the number 6 appears. Rokkenjima is also 6 characters when transcribed into hiragana (ろっけんじま). Removing the island from Rokkenjima leaves us with "Rokken" which means six eaves but also has 6 characters in romaji. This might be stretching it, but is still considerable.

3. Beatrice is ベアトリチェ in katakana and is composed of 6 characters. This may be a stretch though since nothing really is "changed".

What makes me think is Eva's hint that originally, it cannot be read by 6 characters. It will transform into 6 characters if you read it another way. Another thing is Eva did look on an atlas. What if Rokkenjima is the "village at the end of the river?" It is simple in a sense.

It is another farfetched thought, but what if Rokkenjima isn't really an island?

Sooner or later this claim might be disproved, but as long as it isn't been disproven, the possibility doesn't disappear (is this what you call the Probatio Diabolica?).

Maybe it's because of the number of the beast...666

[Kamel]

Spoiler for I just being thinking:

I was thinking about Higurashi vs Umineko and I stumbled on following problem:
Batler's victory condition is proving that there is no magic or withes so I ask in the end
does that victory really gives him?
-if he proves that Beato the witch is not a culprit then wining with her does not do anything to the real culprit. It might be like in the episode 3 when he and Beato uncovered that Eva was not a witch and next thing we see is his non-meta self killed with a shotgun.
- if he really wins then by the the rules of the game Beato is "killed" for good, and a whole magic reality is repelled and denied.
if there is no magic there is also no
a)resurection of the dead meta butler is dead as there is no witch to revive him any more
B) there is no "chessboard",meta-butler is powerless to influence the real world nothing that he proved or learned could be transmited to the actual characters in the main plot , I mean how with magic?
C)It was stated that it is the power of the witch that creates the Time-loop so the moment game ends with Batler's "victory" there is no longer any time loop nor anyone with reason or power to mantain it .
-After all if the magic is denied even if some other witches would like to do something their magic would not be "real".
As result batler's "victory" would be like Minagoroshi-hen ending with Hanyu being dead and unable to send Rika to another hinamizawa.

[Orophin]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

Spoiler for thoughts:

And while I am on the aftermath of what happened on the island, I find it very weird that if Eva is the culprit as she says, that she would kill Hideyoshi or George since they are all that she had and treasured. If Hideyoshi was in it with Eva all along then having him getting killed on the process of killing Kyrie and Rudolf is more likely but for Eva to kill her husband, and I am assuming that in the real world whenever we saw Eva-Beatrice it was actually Eva herself. Also the same for George...no matter what he wouldn't have been in this at all so it means he must have been killed...

Spoiler for Eva, Hideyoshi and George:

I personally think that she did kill Hideyoshi and I can see two possibilities for this: the first one is that Hideyoshi did talk to Rudolf and Kyrie and Eva heard everything which hurted her badly. After that, she became confuse in what to think and ended up killing him. The second and more probable possibility is that even through he covered her for the murder of Rosa and Maria, Hideyoshi came back to his senses when he actually saw Eva kill someone in front of him. He then acted just like we saw with Eva-Beatrice. After being bitch slapped numorous times, she accidentally or voluntary pulled the trigger.

As for George, he probably killed himself in the end to be reunited with Shannon. I can't see Eva killing him and beside, unlike Hideyoshi, Eva-Beatrice wasn't there when he got killed.

EDIT: I just thought about another thing. Hideyoshi might have acted this way because Eva only intended to kill Rosa at first since she knew about the gold. When he saw that she killed Rudolf and Kyrie even if that was unnecessary, he tried to bring her back to reality by bitch slapping her.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Kamel

Spoiler for I just being thinking:

I was thinking about Higurashi vs Umineko and I stumbled on following problem:
Batler's victory condition is proving that there is no magic or withes so I ask in the end
does that victory really gives him?
-if he proves that Beato the witch is not a culprit then wining with her does not do anything to the real culprit. It might be like in the episode 3 when he and Beato uncovered that Eva was not a witch and next thing we see is his non-meta self killed with a shotgun.
- if he really wins then by the the rules of the game Beato is "killed" for good, and a whole magic reality is repelled and denied.
if there is no magic there is also no
a)resurection of the dead meta butler is dead as there is no witch to revive him any more
B) there is no "chessboard",meta-butler is powerless to influence the real world nothing that he proved or learned could be transmited to the actual characters in the main plot , I mean how with magic?
C)It was stated that it is the power of the witch that creates the Time-loop so the moment game ends with Batler's "victory" there is no longer any time loop nor anyone with reason or power to mantain it .
-After all if the magic is denied even if some other witches would like to do something their magic would not be "real".
As result batler's "victory" would be like Minagoroshi-hen ending with Hanyu being dead and unable to send Rika to another hinamizawa.

Spoiler for ep3:

Well, that could be true for all that we know, but I think that there's a huge difference between magic (as in what Beato uses in the game) and the people traveling between kakera. It's funny that they never make this distinction so clear in the game, but we're talking about two completely different things. Sometimes Beato seems to use 'kakera magic' by taking Battler to different worlds (or being taken there with him).

So if Battler succeeds in denying magic, then that shouldn't do anything about the 'kakera witches'. Furthermore, it is impossible for him to deny 'kakera magic' because the very fact that he exists and is playing this game proves that kakera exist, and that it is possible to view separate kakera.

If we call the game's rules kakera magic instead of just magic, it gets rid of the biggest contradiction in the Umineko series...which is that Battler's 'everything is science' theory only really works if Battler is in a mental institution...

[Matrim]

Man, am I glad that I avoided all spoilers or what! The final twist was sublime.

Spoiler for ep.3:

Frankly, I was a bit baffled by Beatrice's complete transformation but I didn't see the twist until a bit after Battler reached the Golden Land. It was too nice of a place and alarm bells started ringing in my head.
Apart from that my favourite part was probably Kyrie and Rudolph pwning the stakes, I think it's safe to say that Battler's family is badass all around. Of course, this could easily be just some illusion but Kyrie's investigating skills also impressed me once more. I really hope she gets a leading role, so to speak, in ep.4.
The Siesta Sisters were extremely boring.

As for who did it, I have not much of an idea. Eva has no reason whatsoever to kill George, especially after Shannon had already been murdered which rendered the one possible reason she might have had void. I really liked my theory that Beatrice was looking for someone to take over as Endless Witch and expected Eva to die before the ceremony is completed but...well, let's just say I was wrong by at least 12 years. What if Eva is the culprit and George simply committed a suicide due to his grief for Shannon?
The other extremely suspicious fellow is Nanjo. He was left alone quite often and if often mentioned almost by the by, as merely a walking talking tool who is useful only for verifying the deaths. We know close to nothing about him. Red text says he was killed by someone else this time around - maybe this is exactly why there was a survivor in the end. Eva-Beatrice says 15 are dead in red and then adds in white that they are dead when Nanjo is killed. Why not say everything in red? Someone could have been counted for dead but survived and taken revenge on Nanjo, after which he or she died from their wounds. Most likely candidate would be George, IMO. And the easiest solution of them all would be that Eva-Beatrice's red means squat, it could have been just a trick to deceive Battler to buy Beato's sacrifice.

If I am allowed a small complaint, I would say that it was quite unbelievable that people split up so much this time around, despite being sure or at least convinced that it was very possible there was a dangerous murderer lurking around. Rosa goes in the garden, with her child no less, just to make her shut up. People just didn't stay together all that much or suspected each other nearly as much as in previous eps. Of course, everyone being in one room again would have been somewhat repetitive but still...

All in all, I still favour the theory that Beatrice is a witch but cannot kill directly. She can put stakes in dead bodies, move bodies or even lock and unlock doors so Battler's chances of solving the mystery by catching the real culprit(s) are really low. As mentioned before the game she is playing with Battler is an extremely easy game to win, if she can kill people at will. The length at which she went to deceive Battler in ep.3 plus LambdaDelta's threats in the tea party make me quite sure she is not playing just for the fun of it and that she can't end it at any given time.

P.S. I have wanted to say this ever since I read his contribution in the ep.2 thread so here goes - Peroyasha is my hero. I wish I had the patience to analyse things that much. And now I see people have already had the same suspicion as me about Nanjo's death...well, great minds think alike.

P.P.S. The translation team rocks! Thank you so much!

[Christen]

Spoiler for tea party:

I'm just wondering if I'm the only who got scared at Lambdadelta when she threatened Beato about putting her in the worst kakera out of the billions of it. She is, after all, the witch of certainty. Coupled with her distorted expressions.

She's still cute though.

[Saerianne]

Originally Posted by Christen

Spoiler for tea party:

I'm just wondering if I'm the only who got scared at Lambdadelta when she threatened Beato about putting her in the worst kakera out of the billions of it. She is, after all, the witch of certainty. Coupled with her distorted expressions.

She's still cute though.

You're not alone.

[Avisch]

Just finished it.

God what a morbid ending. With a nice display of hope at the end.

I'm going to let myself rest. Before I think up theories.

Spoiler for Top moments in EP3?:

In order

Kanon and Lucifer fight. Kyrie+Rudolf fighting the stakes (Worldend Dominator!). Ange's intro.

Battler could get a moment here I bet. But I think I better save declarations of awesome for the next episodes.

Spoiler for Things I just liked:

First of all. I love Ryukishi's moe-anthropomorphized weaponry. We got more of Lucifer The Siestas are just funny awesome. I can't wait for more

Ronove was a very good addition to the cast. Loyal to Beatrice but still his own character.

Music~~~~! Happiness of Marionette is now my most listened track so far.

Spoiler for Things I'm confused at?:

Ok Eva is the culprit. But what we are still left with confusion over Nanjo's death right?

And Virgilia was just playing along through the first 99% of the game? Yeah wow.....that is horrible for Battler.

Originally Posted by Christen

Spoiler for tea party:

I'm just wondering if I'm the only who got scared at Lambdadelta when she threatened Beato about putting her in the worst kakera out of the billions of it. She is, after all, the witch of certainty. Coupled with her distorted expressions.

She's still cute though.

Yes you are not alone.

[momobunny]

I don't know why people hated the Siestas when they first came in, I found them to be a nice addition to the cast... then again I am a bunny lover. X3

Spoiler:

It was kind of annoying when all of a sudden an arrow would come and kill somebody in the middle of a nice scene... but I'd blame Eva-Beatrice for that. The Siestas are adorable and nice in my opinion, I like 45. :3

[Jaymer]

Originally Posted by Maho Momo

I don't know why people hated the Siestas when they first came in, I found them to be a nice addition to the cast... then again I am a bunny lover. X3

Spoiler:

It was kind of annoying when all of a sudden an arrow would come and kill somebody in the middle of a nice scene... but I'd blame Eva-Beatrice for that. The Siestas are adorable and nice in my opinion, I like 45. :3

Spoiler for Ep3:

That was the best bit, man haha. I don't like the Siestas that much anymore, I didn't realize their arrows were so powerful o.o;;
Still, the siestas are kyute ahha.

[Matrim]

Well, being the idiot that I am I finally realised that the silences in some moments of the game are due to me not having a Japanese setting for non-unicode programs, so I will be doubly motivated to replay the first three episodes taking notes but just for the fun of it, I will try some rambling thoughts about ]who is the mastermind (assuming there is one, of course).

Spoiler for ep.3:

1. Kinzo

- He is a creepy bastard who couldn't care less about his family.

- He has by far the best reason to follow the ritual in the epitaph.

- The way in which he "dies" is fishy in all episodes this far.

- He has the best means to recruit accomplices - Nanjo, some of the servants or a member of his family with a promise of leaving everything to him.

- He has nothing to lose as he is going to die soon anyway.



Problems: Surely Ryukishi07 won't use the very same trick again? I mean the burned body trick we all know from Higurashi. Then again, it could actually be the body of Kinzo, if he is crazy enough to think the witch will resurrect him after his pawns complete the rituals.

Furthermore, Kinzo has also the means to hire any amount of hitmen if all he wants is just the ritual to be performed. But the epitaph says things like "the surviving will tear apart those who are close" and I think Kinzo mentions that the element of risk makes the magic possible. Hence, the killer(s) has to be from among the people who are supposed to be on the island and are known to the family. Of course, for all we know Gohda for instance could be a mafia hitman, so this is still a possibility.

2. Nanjo

We know almost nothing about him. Usually survives quite a long time compared to the other adults on the island. Has the perfect means to conspire with someone else and fake their death. It's rather fishy that an experienced doctor wouldn't distingusih between a bullet wound and a stake wound. Motive could range from simple greed to desire to punish the family for caring only about Kinzo's money.

Problem - if Nanjo conspies with someone else, he is playing a terribly dangerous game. What's to stop this someone from killing Nanjo too after killing the rest? Or during the killing spree itself. Suspicious family members could also turn against him at any time during the murders. The risk seem way too excessive for the plan to succeed often enough as to be the basis of Beato's game against Battler. In Higurashi the mastermind's plan succeeded so often because the balalnce of power was totally on the side of the villain.

3. No mastermind except Beatrice who might or might not be just a personification of the culprits' warped desire and hunger to kill. Outside of the metaworld, that is. For now I favour something in between one and three - Kinzo sets the stage by instilling a creepy atmosphere in the mansion, making everybody attend the gathering, writing the epitaph, etc. Then the hunger for money, the hatred between the siblings and maybe some whispering from Beato too, drive different culprits in different arcs to murdering sprees. Too bad this solution is so vague that it tells us nothing much about who killed whom and why...

------------------------------------

Questions:

Why Kinzo doesn't get burned early on in ep.2?

On a not too much related note, Battler jokes about killing his parents and his father dropping dead in his very first scene back in ep.1. What if this is an ironic foreboding Higurashi style? It would be quite a twist if Battler is the mastermind and that's why Eva kills him in ep.3. Not too likely to put it mildly, though.

Avisch, I recommend this post as a guide about who might have

Spoiler for ep.3:

killed Nanjo.

[Avisch]

Did someone suggest this idea as the possiblity of a 19th person? Loopholing the red text

Spoiler for Theory:

When she says There are 18 people on this Rokkenjima. Of course, first we can point out "this" as only specifying the Rokkenjima in this Episode, therefore saying that the red-text only applies

However, what is the definition of a "person" to the red text? Because let's say.

Kinzo imposter shows up before the reunion. Kills real Kinzo. Real Kinzo is now no longer considered a "person" by the game if he is dead. The imposter takes his place, 18 people is still maintained.

Then this does not contradict the red text when Kinzo's death is confirmed, and body present is indeed Kinzo's.


But I can see this theory being easily overridden. If "person" is considered "a body living or dead" by the red text.

I agree Matrim.

Spoiler for things:

Kinzo does not care about anyone. Beatrice herself says he has no understanding of love.

Also Battler's joke I think could just be ironic in itself. But yeah that would be interesting. Like he claims himself to be the culprit to deny Beatrice in a desperate moment.

[k//eternal]

Spoiler:

Someone who's dead is presumably removed from the "person" count, or else (for instance) the dead human Beato would have to be included.

[lovelysan]

Spoiler:

Honestly, though I love Battler like crazy, I have to admit that I've always thought he was pretty suspicious.
If only because of his situation. (estrangement from the Ushiromiya side of the family, etc... )

Still though, again, I'm pretty sure at this point that there is more than one killer. But not necessarily that the killers are working together. Not to mention that I have a feeling some of the deaths are accidental.

That said, yeah, Kinzo's an ass. I wouldn't put it past him either .