Romance in Code Geass (take 4)

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

They already more or less said there was no romance from Lelouch's side concerning C.C.
So... I really don't think why they shouldn't take it one tiny step further. If they can say "A", they should be able to say "B" if they really wanted to - except if the staff members themselve haven't such a clear opinion on this topic.

What? So if they do not have C.C narrating that Lelouch loved Kallen, that means that the staff does not have such a clear opinion. K'.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

If that's the case, then I simply don't see any importance in this romance issue on Lelouch's part.
It matters to those who ship the pairing, of course, but to me, it just doesn't have any impact on the show, and the staff - for some reason - hasn't given us a clear statement.
So... if the anime doesn't show me a pairing, and the side material refuses to be clear, I can't help but feel the way I do about it.

Romance does not have a huge impact on the show, unless we are talking about Romeo and Juliet, that decided to end their lives because of their love. Oh wait, Kallen was ready to end her life because of her love right? Point is, that romance triggers actions. Lelouch did not "need" romance in his life, because it might have made him trigger different actions than the ones, he thought he had to.
Again, this does not mean, that he did not feel any romantic feelings towards a certain someone.

That is your problem btw, you disregard things that do not fit in your "impact-show" view. Of course ignoring something, does not mean it is not there.

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by yvj

LOL wow I was seriously ignored that time. My feelings are hurt, I though I was helping

I now decree all my insightful posts shall be passed to incorrupts so she relate them all to you commoners.

...you were not ignored, dear, I just completely missed your post. Hey, it's 3 a.m here, my eyes are getting tired 8D;;

Like I told Sky on her profile, I judge the mutuality of love in a pairing by looking at both characters' behavior towards the other. And in Kalulu's case, while I do see a lot of focus on Kallen's love for Lelouch, the feelings on his part are a lot more open for interpretation. The anime did give me more reason to question how he felt for Shirley than for Kallen. The "Lelouch loves Kallen" explanation is definitely not the first one that comes to my mind when I look at some scenes used for arguments, though I can understand how one can see them as such. I know it's not the same for everyone. But in this context, the side materials don't really change anything for me. They're exactly like those questionable scenes from the anime in a way: one can argue that they might mean something more, but in the end you choose what makes the most sense for you. And even with the translations some people kindly provide here, I see a difference between "this is what it says" and "this is what it must mean", especially coming from strong Kalulu defenders. No offense.

Once again, I'm not saying Lelouch loving Kallen back is ridiculous. But most arguments for the pairing take Lelouch's feelings for her to extremes I cannot agree with, in all honesty. Him having feelings for her might make sense. But him loving her so much she was almost more important than the Zero Requiem itself, more important than Nunally, that she was his reason for living, that it deserved an Aishiteru, that he was ready to die for her alone, that everything he did was for her sake, that in the end he had only but ONE wish and that was for her to live on, this, this just doesn't work.

Even if Lelouch loved her back, Kalulu was a subplot at best. And a lot of arguments are turning it and Kallen into the main focus of the show.

So in the end, I'm not going to deny it's possible. It is possible. But yeah, "I just don't see it."

...*goes to pass out*

[Lie]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

does anyone have that whole line from complete? If there is going to be a debate on that, I for one would like to actually see the lines before making my judgment.

That is the complete line iirc.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

Once again, I'm not saying Lelouch loving Kallen back is ridiculous. But most arguments for the pairing take Lelouch's feelings for her to extremes I cannot agree with, in all honesty. Him having feelings for her might make sense. But him loving her so much she was almost more important than the Zero Requiem itself, more important than Nunally, that she was his reason for living, that it deserved an Aishiteru, that he was ready to die for her alone, that everything he did was for her sake, that in the end he had only but ONE wish and that was for her to live on, this, this just doesn't work.

Even if Lelouch loved her back, Kalulu was a subplot at best. And a lot of arguments are turning it and Kallen into the main focus of the show.

i just love how everyone is still calling me sky, i do, honest. 8D

Ok, wait a bit here, because you take it a bit on the extreme this time. {and you know, i am not being aggressive, not at all, in fact i do respect your opinions and you know it. But you might have stretched it a bit this time.}

1. No one said, that Kallen was more important than the ZR itself. It was stated that Lelouch kept her out of it, even if that en-dangered the whole plan, because of his feelings {?} for her.

2. No one said that Kallen was more important than Nunally or his reason for living. It was mentioned that after Nunally's "loss", Kallen might have been something along the words of "lifeline" for him.

3. "Deserve" aishiteru? It is not a matter of deserving or not, when it comes to romance. It comes naturally and step by step after evolve. Kallen "deserved" a heart-to-heart discussion, in the terms of that she was pretty much along by his side in both seasons.

4. Ready to die for her alone? Who said this?

5. No, not everything. But certainly a lot was about her. And the plan, served him well anyway.

6. It was his wish for her to live on. And because this, i have seen it around the boards, i think the guys are referring in the technical aspect, as in about "wishes", there was only his wish for Kallen mentioned in the Complete. {personal wish btw}
In the general context of the things, he obviously wished for all his important people.

For Lelouch, it might have been a ++subplot, considering that he had like 5839483 to attend, but for Kallen, it was the core of her development. So, balancing those two, i say it was important {as far as important romance can be in a rebellion-terrorist series and considering that it involves the protagonist and a main character} for the show. But of course, duh, not everything. That would be lulz by itself.

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

Once again, I'm not saying Lelouch loving Kallen back is ridiculous. But most arguments for the pairing take Lelouch's feelings for her to extremes I cannot agree with, in all honesty. Him having feelings for her might make sense. But him loving her so much she was almost more important than the Zero Requiem itself, more important than Nunally, that she was his reason for living, that it deserved an Aishiteru, that he was ready to die for her alone, that everything he did was for her sake, that in the end he had only but ONE wish and that was for her to live on, this, this just doesn't work.

I do not think anyone has said most of those things. No one said Kallen trumped Nunally, except in the episodes when Nunally was, to Lelouch, dead. When Nunally was dead, for Lelouch, Kallen possibly became a new support/goal.

As for the aishiteru, we are not the ones who wrote the poem. So ask yourself, why the staff, knowing how serious-bzns shipping is, used the most emotional of words. They could have used suki or daisuki, would have shown the same from Kallen's end.

Even if Lelouch loved her back, Kalulu was a subplot at best. And a lot of arguments are turning it and Kallen into the main focus of the show.

Who argued otherwise?

The romance plot was always a subplot, but look at what thread you are in. What do you expect people to discuss in here?

[SonOfHeaven]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

I already shared my thoughts on that actually. What Kallen was hoping for from Lelouch, the one thing that could have made her follow him to Hell no matter what the price, the one thing that could have mattered more than anything else in the world, was him loving her. Not just as a friend, not just as a comrade, not just as an ally. Him loving her the way she did. Because nothing short of an aishiteiru could have made her give up on her own beliefs to embrace the crazy and evil actions she didn't even understand. That was the only word that would have made her follow him.

The word is that important because Kallen needed it to be important in order to follow Lelouch to Hell. And it makes complete sense in the context of a poem about romance and the strength of her feelings and hopes towards Lelouch for me. So no, they could not replace it or skip the line.

I think that's one of the reasons why I disagree with that interpretation of the poem. Kallen never seemed throughtout the show as someone who needed Lelouch's love to side with him or as an lovesick girl throughout the series. Someone mentioned before its not like Kallen asked Lelouch "Do you love me?" at turn 19.

Im sure if Lelouch used suki for Kallen's question she would have sided with Lelouch anyhow. There is a reason why Lelouch stayed silent, didn't say even suki and not lie about it. I'm glad the poem gave insight as to why Lelouch stayed silent because I remember people believing Kallen was part of ZR and that's why he wanted Kallen to turn against him. I completely disagreed with that. If aishiteru is the only word that would have worked to have Kallen follow Lelouch, then why didn't Lelouch just say suki if Lelouch knew that that wouldn't have been enough to have Kallen follow and she would have leave him.

Given that Kallen had insight as to what ZR was all about and understood Lelouch's feelings as well. Well, it is indeed possible that maybe Lelouch loved her but from Kallen's POV he did and Lelouch was going to use aishiteru. And that's enough of Kallen and no one will more than likely get close to her heart given how her character song was presented.

Edit: I'm not sure but if my memory serves me correctly that from a magazine that describes the scene between the two during turn 22 that for Lelouch he was hiding his fellings. Could someone confirm this?

[dec4rhapsody]

Adding one point to the poem...
It's tone is unexpectedly sweet and girlish/otome-ish with all those "ne" in the 2nd half.
One can imagine that Kallen-tan actually says it in the tone amisuke used in the epilogue...

+plus, with all those ne/deshou she is basically "interacting" with a certain someone in the poem, says Kanalelou.

Edit: I'm not sure but if my memory serves me correctly that from a magazine that describes the scene between the two during turn 22 that for Lelouch he was hiding his fellings. Could someone confirm this?

It's from the best scene poll on one of the broadcast sites.
It says Lelouch didn't reveal his honshin/true feelings/intentions.

Honshin was also used in the complete, saying that Kallen was unable to capture/catch his true feelings/intentions (till the stab stab stab).


@Lie-san
Kamisama!!!!!!!!!!
Don't remind me of BAIDU!
*shudders*

[Lie]

Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody

One can imagine that Kallen-tan actually says it in the tone amisuke used in the epilogue...

~and her char song!

+plus, with all those ne/deshou she is basically "interacting" with a certain someone in the poem, says Kanalelou.

Its the same as in the epilogue, she is 'talking' to him.
~~~100% evidence that Lelouch is hiding under her bed

[dec4rhapsody]

Originally Posted by Lie

~and her char song!



Its the same as in the epilogue, she is 'talking' to him.
~~~100% evidence that Lelouch is hiding under her bed

LOL...
Well, we can also have our own interpretation, ne...
Kallen speaking to Lelouch in such a dere-dere tone, for the first time...
but Lelouch never heard that.
*sniff*


BTW, it just bothers me, why those suggestive LuluRolo and SchneizelXKanon arts are thought to be canon while the artists herself says they are not (in her disclaimer) and sold the pics on C75 as DOUJINSHI...

Yare yare


BTW BTW, AKAZAKI is still alive (which surprises me<-I thought he has succumbed to his backache) and is reorganizing his site...but he seemingly jumped to the Sheryl ship...
I was hoping that he could make a rurukare doujin after he watched R2 in his 1-year hiatus.
Ugh

[Lolipopo]

Just a thing.

IfI say to someone "Blanc" means white in french, it's white. It's not "kinda white"
I have this feelings that people are implying this, that this Aishiteru means Kinda white.

I don't have the pretense to know better than Lie, Dec4, or 2ch people (cause it caused a wank therebecause of the world) japaneses language. Aishiteru knows no equal and it's a controversial word. If the staff put it there, there is a meaning.

[Nobodyman9]

Well, it seems I've missed out on a lot of the action, so let me stick my hand in the rat cage and see if I get bit.

I can see we're on the whole Kalulu track again, so here's a question of mine: in regard to the whole "aishiteru" line, I first-off need some clarification. Now in the poem was it that Kallen said she "aishiteru'd" Lelouch, or did she say if Lelouch had said "aishiteru" she would have followed him to hell. If I'm correct, I believe it's the latter.

Now, considering it was latter, this is pretty much Kalulu's basis for the argument that Lelouch loved Kallen back (that and the mutual kiss). The reason being that this shows how Lelouch really felt about her but didn't say it in order to keep her away from ZR. So the Kalulu's are going by Kallen's own interpretation of Lelouch's actions because they believe her to be of sound and reasonable mind and because she has this particular deep understanding of Lelouch's mind?

Serioulsy, I'm just asking

Also, it's been discussed exactly why the staff chose the word "aishiteru" which is a very controversial and powerful word. This is a very interesting question, I mean, why exactly did they use that word. My take on it is that it wasn't really at all necessary. Frankly, if they used any other word for love I think we'd still be having this same conversation, only replacing "aishiteru" with another word. Wouldn't any other word for love, even if it wasn't as strong, have had pretty much the same effect? In fact it almost seems downright presumptuous and pretentious (Kallen must have really believed that Lelouch loved her)

Oh, and one more thing, I've seen that it's been mentioned once or twice that Shirlulu suffered from a lack of development due to Shirley's death (well duh) Of course Shirley can hardly be blamed for her unfortunate death and the fact that she was a secondary character having a negative impact on her relatioship with Lulu. But I must say that she did pretty good for herself, considering pretty much the whole world was against her. Not that I'm saying anyone's blaming her, just an aside.

[dec4rhapsody]

Originally Posted by Lolipopo

Just a thing.

IfI say to someone "Blanc" means white in french, it's white. It's not "kinda white"
I have this feelings that people are implying this, that this Aishiteru means Kinda white.

I don't have the pretense to know better than Lie, Dec4, or 2ch people (cause it caused a wank therebecause of the world) japaneses language. Aishiteru knows no equal and it's a controversial word. If the staff put it there, there is a meaning.

Well, I don't know how aishiteru could be tha~~~t controversial, though the 2 times Lulu actually saying it made me "ugh...."

I still remember the first time teh gumlines were dug out...
I was todally @-@ ?!!!!!! WHAT?!!!!

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

So the Kalulu's are going by Kallen's own interpretation of Lelouch's actions because they believe her to be of sound and reasonable mind and because she has this particular deep understanding of Lelouch's mind?

Yeah, that's pretty much it. Why be so assuming? She's not the type to take that lightly when the last time they spoke she was asking what she meant to him.

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Also, it's been discussed exactly why the staff chose the word "aishiteru" which is a very controversial and powerful word. This is a very interesting question, I mean, why exactly did they use that word. My take on it is that it wasn't really at all necessary. Frankly, if they used any other word for love I think we'd still be having this same conversation, only replacing "aishiteru" with another word. Wouldn't any other word for love, even if it wasn't as strong, have had pretty much the same effect? In fact it almost seems downright presumptuous and pretentious (Kallen must have really believed that Lelouch loved her).

If the staff chose it, they obviously didn't just choose it for the hell of it. It means they wanted to emphasize that point. If it were a lesser word, sure we'd still be having this conversation, but the strength behind the word would not be as great and the interpretation of it would be more open. To the last part, doesn't she have good reason to? She was ready to leave the Black Knights then and there, yet all she gets from Lelouch is silence. Not even a lie, which is something in and of itself. He could have had two aces up his sleeve yet choose to only have one.

[Lie]

aishiteru =/= other words
I doubt there'd be THIS much of a fuss with any other word
aishiteru has underlying implications that the other words (suki, daisuki, etc) do not carry
its hard to make an english analogy

[Nobodyman9]

I appreciate the input from both of you. Maybe I need to be better educated on the whole "various Japanese words for love" thing. It's all very confusing to me. I still don't believe it's 100% certain that Lelouch returned Kallens' feelings (just my opinion). I mean yes, we can judge that, based on Kallen's character and the circumstances surrounding her, that she could have correctly interpreted Lelouhc's feelings, but no matter how look at it it's still hearsay. Now, if there's ever an official statement from the staff or something that states Lelouch did love her...well, it'd be pretty hard to deny that Right now, I'd say it's about 99% certain that he loved her.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

What? So if they do not have C.C narrating that Lelouch loved Kallen, that means that the staff does not have such a clear opinion. K'.

That was just an example.
If C.C. said "Lelouch loved Kallen", then I'd believe it. If the staff gave a clear statement, I'd believe it, too.
But when I read the poem for the first time, it never even once crossed my mind that someone might try to use it as evidence for Lelouch's feelings.

Romance does not have a huge impact on the show, unless we are talking about Romeo and Juliet, that decided to end their lives because of their love. Oh wait, Kallen was ready to end her life because of her love right? Point is, that romance triggers actions. Lelouch did not "need" romance in his life, because it might have made him trigger different actions than the ones, he thought he had to.
Again, this does not mean, that he did not feel any romantic feelings towards a certain someone.

And I never said it's impossible that Lelouch was in love with Kallen. Just that I didn't see it.

That is your problem btw, you disregard things that do not fit in your "impact-show" view. Of course ignoring something, does not mean it is not there.

Ah, yes, I forgot. Kalulu is canon and I am merely in denial.
But when I wrote that "impact" thing, I was mainly thinking about two things:
1. If Lelouch's supposed romantic feelings for Kallen never occured to me and quite a few other people while watching the anime, and if you have to really look for them and want them to be there in order to see them, then I can't bring myself to view them as significant. And if the staff really wanted to, they could just give us a clear statement.
2. The more I talk about it, the less I care about Lelouch's love life, because it makes no difference to how I saw the show. I'd need a clear statement and then watch it again, and even that probably wouldn't change all that much.
That doesn't mean I completely disregard anything, but I can't help but think that I really shouldn't care enough to get into this again and again, and that my love for discussions is rather unhealthy in this case.

I really don't see the problem, though.
I say Lelouch might have been in love with Kallen, but that I, personally, just don't see it - maybe because I don't care enough, maybe for some other reason, but it doesn't really matter, because I can't change how I feel about this.
Is it really so hard to compromise a bit instead of accusing me of disregarding obvious signs?
You won't convince me, I won't convince you... and that's fine with me.
Why argue about it? It's not as if I laugh at your opinion - I just don't share it.

I also completely agree with Eliarine. Even if Lelouch was in love with Kallen, it doesn't mean she was more important to him than Suzaku or C.C. or Zero Requiem. And that's what some people make it sound like by using certain arguments.

[bladeofdarkness]

there was also the original use of that word in the (dum dum dum) gum-line (which means they planed to use that word for a while now)
its not a word just tossed around
and no one is saying that the word and the kiss alone is the only reason why kalulu fans think lelouch had loved her (dont remember who said it)
there are plenty of other things about their interactions
after all the poem and NT booklet were only released after the show ended

@Nogitsune
didnt lelouch implyed that in ep 11
he asked C.C if she wanted to see "the power of the heart" (while explaining why he is going back to japan instead of taking care of things in the CF)
she even comments that he's grown up a little

[Meatrose]

I once read that if one were to try to translate "aishiteru" it would turn into something like "I love you in the most devoted way a person could ever love another", and that it's not uncommon that a married couple grows old and dies without having used the word. I'm not very good at japanese so I'm not sure how good this info really is, but the phrase is definitely way stronger than "I love you", and there is no word for it in the english vocabulary.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Lie

aishiteru =/= other words
I doubt there'd be THIS much of a fuss with any other word
aishiteru has underlying implications that the other words (suki, daisuki, etc) do not carry
its hard to make an english analogy

Would soul-bound fit?

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

@Nogitsune
didnt lelouch implyed that in ep 11
he asked C.C if she wanted to see "the power of the heart" (while explaining why he is going back to japan instead of taking care of things in the CF)
she even comments that he's grown up a little

Wasn't that "power of the heart" thing all about Shirley? And even though it was rather cute... what does that have to do with anything?
Even if Lelouch was really in love with Kallen, I will simply not believe he was aware of his feelings before Zero Requiem - especially when Shirley was still around.
He used this "power of the heart" thing to refer to the Black Kinght's fight against injustice before, and I never thought it might mean anything else in that context.
He mentioned Kallen, yes, but only briefly, and I never had a doubt he was talking about her as a passionate and loyal member of the Black Knights more than anything else there.