Romance in Code Geass (take 4)

[Lolipopo]

Sword and shield?
I was denoting that the entire concept of this discussion is fruitless.
Breaking something down to pure grammatical "geometry" removes all contextual meaning.
This was already done on LJ and on 2ch and even on BAIDU.
Now here it is on AS.
Taking a hammer to an ice sculpture to analyze its components, while effective, ruins the beauty of the whole.
My comment was not directed at you, but the person who made you analye a piece of work in a manner that makes it lose its meaning outside of pure grammar.
Long point made short: There is no point to this because its outside of context.
Here is a better example:
In Gundam, words that are uncommon in normal rhetoric fly around like a 5 yen sale.
In Code Geass these same words appear as infrequently as an episode not ending in a cliff-hanger.

I was only focusing on the middle stanza, as well as the reverse affects of the last stanza on the predeccessors.
My only comment on the entire poem was that it is not as you thought it appeared by pure grammar and break-down.
It was not a mournful poem, that is my only comment about the entirety.

Questioning the stanza translation would be fruitless.
You translated what we translated before.

This is true.
You were, however, not given a real scenario.
You were given a cut out "summary" of two characters with no background.
That is not what you'd receive in a real literary analysis class.
If I told you all the malicious things Lelouch did in the story, you'd probably think he was the villain.

Then I misunderstood.
ご免なさい

As I said, being objective out of context and just breaking things down, destroys or loses meaning.
That is why I replied to you.
It is basic philosophy, and even basic literary method, to first know the context and then extract meaning.
Not break it down, extract meaning, then apply to a context.
It is not you with whom I could I say I have qualms.
It is with whomever told you to break this down like rubix cube.
Its not a math problem to solve.

The stanza in question is more questioning in tone, than it is a-> b -> c.
The final line of the stanza is questioning in tone.
In my previous post I broke it down from:
"Even if it was a lie, had you said I love you, I would have followed you to your hell. You knew that didn't you."
---
To:
"You knew that had you said 'I love you', even if it was a lie, I would have followed you to hell. Why didn't you?"
Which is augmented by the conclusion of the entire poem with her saying that she did not fall in love with just that kindness.
It is as much, when broken down by pure grammar, a why from her to him as well as a "series of events".
Even if you ignore the other stanzas, the one we are analyzing still has the questioning ring to it.
This is not so much a matter of contesting the translation word to word, because we translated it to the same idea, but one can argue on grammatical scemmantics, if you can call it that.
Long point short: I agree with you, it was a powerful statement but I would make the stanza also questioning in tone when broken down, not just clear cut a->b-> c.
---------------
The real contest appears in comparison to context.
On one character addition it is said that said character had chosen (before meeting him) to follow him, but was not allowed.
This character addition either does not make sense in saying she only wanted to hear aishiteru from him to follow him, this is wrong even within just the show proper, or it is what she expected to hear.
---------------
Like I said before, there is no translation contest on 2ch.
The argument is about Kallen being blind/not blind and simply placing the words she wants to hear there and not what would be said.



When was the last time a man held the door open for you?

Men these days only think of three things.

As opposed to what normally happens in this forums, this is a welcomed addition and I greatly enjoyed it.

The problem, really, was never about your translation.
The Japanese 'break down' of aishiteru was already posted, and was more or less word for word what you said.
I posted it a long time ago.
It was recentely reposted from yet another source.
Now you yourself posted it.
The word used there is incredibly powerful.
But when you take it outside of context, which has been my problem, the sentence becomes different then when in context.
I enjoyed this with you, but I don't understand why someone put you up to saying exactly what has been said.
This only just keeps to the point of what was being made by the fans of said pairing.

I have to disagree. Chivalry isn't dead.

Levy :
Lelouch is worth of her love of course ! This man was fabulous.
He gave her everything, he was definitely worth of that.
*Still bitter about Lelouch in turn 22*

So finally if we add context the result is exactly the same than the previous one. Lol in a way it was already a given since "Aishiteru" importance is one more time underlined. Now about the two version...like Lie said, it's more of a mix in a more complicate way. Well seriously without the serie to judge, that's weird.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Being right with the wrong way, won't make someone's point to come across.
Stop the half-assery here already, no kidding.

My last line was not about having right. Some people wanted another opinion on the poem, and apparently many people assumed that it was me who asked an opinion to Mystique. That's why I recieved PMs even before posting here. It was not to discredit Lie, the people are smart enough to make their own opinion now, they are just happy that someone else who was fluent in japanese posted.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Lolipopo

I

So finally if we add context the result is exactly the same than the previous one. Lol in a way it was already a given since "Aishiteru" importance is one more time underlined. Now about the two version...like Lie said, it's more of a mix in a more complicate way. Well seriously without the serie to judge, that's weird.

I do not know if i would define it as "weird" but certainly not right. You have to have watched the series, to have a safe "interpretation" of the poem.
Even if it is just a side-material, it comes from a development of a 50-series episodes.

ETA: Um Narona are you kidding me? I was actually kinda defending you, saying that yvj was kinda "off."
Half-assery was for all the situation lately. Try reading my posts, without being biased or read them better.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

ETA: Um Narona are you kidding me? I was actually kinda defending you, saying that yvj was kinda "off."
Half-assery was for all the situation lately. Try reading my posts, without being biased or read them better.

I Read it wrong ^^. Sorry, I was still a bit irritated by yvj's post, because it was not funny at all, really.

Off for dinner, anyways.

[Levy]

Originally Posted by Lolipopo

Lelouch is worth of her love of course ! This man was fabulous.
He gave her everything, he was definitely worth of that.

Lol, I told to Frost already once, it's all in my low consideration of the degree of truthness of the first Zero/Lelouch that all the magic broke ... or better, never started XD;

[Lie]

What I do not understand.
Is what this changes.
Blotty's original translation was impartial, it was a simple translation.
The talk about aishiteru also is no different from what was already posted.
What changed from before this to after it?
Everything that has been argued in this thread has been in context of the show and about interpretations.
Not about grammar.
----
I also do not see what the grammatical break down, which was also already posted, changed.
Aishiteru is powerful.
We already knew this.

[Levy]

Lie, maybe your posts got a little more complicate for my interest/understanding indeed, but from them it seem the choice of the word 'aishiteru' and the structure of the phrase IS relevant to the interpretation of the poem as a whole, and this is something a non-japanese speaker is incapacitated to judge because he lacks the knowledge.

If this 'technicalls' details are not relevant at all, tell me why they've been discussed for so long.

edit: anyway, I don't see either anything bad in further information being posted in this thread. It fits here, it might be relevant to the interest of someone, you countered the points you disagree, what's wrong with that?
Debate is open, aren't we all here for this?

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Narona

I Read it wrong ^^. Sorry, I was still a bit irritated by yvj's post, because it was not funny at all, really.

Off for dinner, anyways.

It's alright, i might not have made it that clear anyway.

I said, that yvj was "off", but really, you have got to expect these kind of reactions lately. With the way, this section has become to grow lately. How do i put it? I'll use another one of my infamous metaphors. |DDD;;

A lot of CCxL fans, are like the Anti-Spirals when it came to their ship, they just wanted their way when it came to this. And it seemed like, that at some point, they might have gotten it.
But, the rebels strike back. KallenxLelouch fans, like the infamous Gurren Brigade started with pretty much nothing, and now they are all like powered-up and little by little, episode+materials supporting them, reached the God-like Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. {i used that one, because it seems to me that Kalulu fans are more like fellowship, each one supporting each other. |DD;;}

So after this half-assed metaphor, my point is, that this section lately, has been occupied mostly of Kalulu fans, and it is rational {not saying, that it is always right or that i agree everytime} if they are being some in-jokes or something like this.
Problem is, that the people that come to support their CCxL lately {very few} are not trying to bring forth points for their ship, more like downgrade KalxLulu.
And this just makes the situation more heated up.

Bottomline : Everyone just relax, and if there is some in-joke or something, oh well. Ignore it or play along. 8D

[Lie]

Originally Posted by Levy

Lie, maybe your posts got a little more complicate for my interest/undertanding indeed, but from them it seem the choice of the word 'aishiteru' and the structure of the phrase IS relevant to the interpretation of the poem as a whole, and this is something a non-japanese speaker is incapacitated to judge because he lacks the knowledge.

If this 'technicalls' details are not relevant at all, tell me why they've been discussed for so long.

The choice of aishiteru already changes meanings.
If we want to talk about meanings based on words, even completely out of context, then the simple idea that Kallen is expecting that word is almost unheard of.
She could never, in good consciousness, have expected him to say such a word to her.
The only way she would say or expect such a word is if there was some deep rooted reason to expect it. (this is an edit)
Unless she is pretentious and thinks far to highly of herself.
That is pure grammatical breakdown.
One must question why she would expect such a powerful, over the top word.
It is not an orthodox word, as Mystique and others have already explained.
Its mere presence when removed from all shipping and context is a natural red flag for "what was going on here".
The talk about the actual structure was posted before, right when the poem was posted, actually.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Mystique

Yes I am breaking it down to its base just for the linguistic meaning of that specific stanza in question. I see you've got your sword and shield all ready there, but the fight is your own.
You're commenting on the entire 'meaning' of the poem, I'm taking into account the use if 'aishiteru' in relation to that stanza as I continued to explain at the end of my post.
My own thoughts and impressions and based from the poem alone, which naturally will be inaccurate to the anime series at hand, that's a given. The only stance if you wanna question the 'meaning' is whether my interpretation for that stanza was totally off the mark. Seeing as you didn't dispute that, I'm guessing I'm right.
That's as far as my post goes in terms of 'credence', the rest is my own two pence on a basic theories in the case where someone who usually has no qualms to manipulate others for their own gain, decides not to.
As to who, how, what, why and when, is not a debate I can get into, thus I've left that for you guys to hash over.

I think it's awesome that you put so much effort into this, and I'm sure a lot of people appreciate it - I sure do.
Not that I have a problem with the translations we were already given, but I really enjoyed reading your postings, and they gave me some things to think about (mostly things that aren't very closely related to the original topic, but, well... my mind tends to wander xD).

As for my question, that was merely my own curiosity to you guys about Lelouch, not the translation or the poem.
So not knowing much bout Lelouch himself, to ask 'was he a person worth following?' I was curious to hear from those who have formed their opinions about him (liking him or hating him).
Still am, although I'll ask a few other CG fans who aren't into pairings later.

I'm not into pairings, either (except that I enjoy some nice shounen-ai fanfics from time to time), but I'm afraid that doesn't make me any less biased, because, well... Lelouch is just awesome.
Not a saint, and far from perfect, but definitely a guy worth admiring. And loving. And pitying. And hugging, and punching in the face.
He's proud, selfish, self-asorbed... yet kind, fiercly protective of his precious people and (under the right circumstances) incredibly non-judgmental. He's someone who got screwed over by life and fate from the very beginning, and who has a lot of issues and emotional scars.
He can be ruthless and manipulative, but like most characters in Code Geass, he's really just doing what he thinks is right and looking for a bit of happiness.
The girl in the poem is someone he truly gives everything, but until the end of the series approaches, it's not much more than a side effect of his actions.

At the beginning, Lelouch's goal is simply to avenge his mother's death and create a gentle world for his little sister, and to do that, he kills and endangers people who love him - sometimes ruthlessy, much more often without realizing the full consequences of his actions in time. He also can't affort to care much about "pawns".
But sooner or later, people grow on him, and he goes to quite some lengths to keep his loved ones save, including the girl from the poem. By the end of the series, his goal truly has become to create a peaceful world for everyone (and to atone for his "sins").
If you are curious about him, you should probably watch the anime, because it's really hard to sum Lelouch up in just a few words. He's a twisted, complicated, awesome character, and as I see it, it's no wonder so many girls in the series fall for him.

Originally Posted by Lie

What I do not understand.
Is what this changes.
Blotty's original translation was impartial, it was a simple translation.
The talk about aishiteru also is no different from what was already posted.
What changed from before this to after it?
Everything that has been argued in this thread has been in context of the show and about interpretations.
Not about grammar.
----
I also do not see what the grammatical break down, which was also already posted, changed.
Aishiteru is powerful.
We already knew this.

I think the problem is that some people made it sound like: "Well, Kallen used aishiteru, so there is no room for interpretation anymore. Lelouch was madly in love with her, and that's it!"
This might not be what they meant, but it's how their point came across.

[Lie]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

I think the problem is that some people made it sound like: "Well, Kallen used aishiteru, so there is no room for interpretation anymore. Lelouch was madly in love with her, and that's it!"
This might not be what they meant, but it's how their point came across.

That is there own doing, then.
Aishiteru does not make anything definitive, if anyone said so they were wrong.
What it does is bring up flags, that I brought up in my last post.
She cannot (if she is sane and aware of what language she is using) capable of using that word without deep rooted reasons.
If you strip away all context then you have a woman wanting aishiteru from a man so that she'll follow him.
But, unless she is, pardon my simplistic language, insane she's not going to get it unless she has reason to expect it.
If she went in there, waiting for aishiteru (lie or not) there needs to be a pretty damn good reason for it.
This is where all the debates come from that have been mentioned on 2ch.
Is Kallen blind or not.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

I think the problem is that some people made it sound like: "Well, Kallen used aishiteru, so there is no room for interpretation anymore. Lelouch was madly in love with her, and that's it!"
This might not be what they meant, but it's how their point came across.

Like i discussed with blotty on msn once, she told me that " aishiteru is firstly, a gauge of your feelings, so you don't really expect your partner to return the aishiteru."
But unless Kallen, was high-high when she wrote the poem {aka staff} then she must have had a reason to wait for those words. {add in all those stuff, about understanding Lelouch's feelings yadda yadda}

As for how their point did not come across, you have to keep in mind, that well, most KallenxLelouch fans are good kids, they are {you know i love most of you guys <3 // lulz} but they can stretch a bit the things. Take it as their raw-raw-vocal power. |DD;

[yvj]

Originally Posted by Narona

There's no intend to hire mercenaries against the kalulu. It's me who asked to Mystique what she thinks of the poem. I gave her the data, and explained the context of the characters to her.

LOL when I'm serious people barely pay attention to me. When I'm being goofy I get fire and brimstone.

I do not win.

Originally Posted by Narona

But oh well, it was for my personal understanding, and I didn't ask her to come here just to annoy the kalulu fans. I was not clear enough about that, and so I should have been more specific in what I said to her (to reply to me, not in the thread).

I'm not annoyed. It's quite the opposite when I first saw the post I thought it would be something more to talk/fight/discuss about.

I was intrigued to see if this would change things I.E bring people out of hiding to talk again.

And really I think the merc actually did the right thing by relating the information first hand.

Originally Posted by Narona

As I said many times, on this CG forum, all the translators and japanese people are only kalulu fans, I just wanted another opinion for my personal understanding.

The same Kalulu fans who through much of R2 have been supplying information about everything.

Personally I think someone would be pretty stupid to put out false information about Japanese culture on the internet about one of the more popular anime series in the last year.

Originally Posted by Narona

After having read her thoughts, I have some questions, but I will send them to her in private. Like that you will not think I try to annoy the poor kalulu fans who are supposedly so maltreated here.

Kalulu maltreated here? No not here I'd say Kalulu has set up shop here. Elsewhere is another story. And sometimes its hard to not bring the outside fandom into here.

Originally Posted by Narona

@Mystique: Anyways, you made some people who stopped to post here happy. Thanks again.

LOL Fantastic.

See is really that far from my joke? Is it?

I bet people got all giddy when they saw the one word underlined Platonic That's all they had probably wanted to see really

Secret parades are being held.

At least this gives us a few more weeks to rehash our arguments over and over again.

EDIT: Funny enough if people had actually paid attention to the main kalulu arguments. The new translation changes nothing.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by yvj

LOL Fantastic.

See is really that far from my joke? Is it?

I think Narona was not talking about Kalulu fans. Quite the opposite, for the other fans, as in they saw "objectivity" around this section {that according to a lot of people has been lost forever} and that made them happy.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by yvj

LOL Fantastic.

See is really that far from my joke? Is it?

I bet people got all giddy when they saw the one word underlined Platonic That's all they had probably wanted to see really

Secret parades are being held.

At least this gives us a few more weeks to rehash our arguments over and over again.

EDIT: Funny enough if people had actually paid attention to the main kalulu arguments. The new translation changes nothing.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=2162

I even explained myself about that line of me. So I don't understand what you are trying to say.

[yvj]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

I think Narona was not talking about Kalulu fans. Quite the opposite, for the other fans, as in they saw "objectivity" around this section {that according to a lot of people has been lost forever} and that made them happy.

I'm a bit skeptical about that.

What's there to be happy about? Satisfied sure, complacent yeah but happy that's suspicious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongue-in-cheek <<<<

Seriously nothing about the new translations bothered me at the all. I have no problem with objectivity as you know when you incorruptus went out of Kalulu mode and was knocking down kalulu posts I thought it was the right thing to do at the time and I told you that. AND I've said before that the information is out there if you doubt the highly biased and sneaky translators here then find out for yourself.

However I am annoyed that it seems like no one has paid attention to what was being said (especially in my fabulous posts)over the past weeks. So its almost confirmed things have been tossed at brick walls. The poem itself is not the solution to the puzzle. It's a piece of the puzzle. You put pieces of information together to come out with the best possible answer you can achieve from canon materials.

You know what the highly objective new post tells us (or maybe just me I shouldn't speak for everyone).

The poem is from Kallen's POV.

If you hand someone the poem who hasn't seen the show and say. "Can you figure out if Character A loves Character B from this." What are they going to see?

Now if you tell the person. Character A and B shared a mutual Kiss and Character B is said to have understood Character's A feelings? Does that not change things even the slightest?

My apologies to the silent majority.

But I knew from the beginning I was ready to go down the Demon Path for my Kalulu ideals.

Originally Posted by Narona

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=2162

I even explained myself about that line of me. So I don't understand what you are trying to say.

I said secret parades were being held. If that did not at least show a bit of lack of sincerity then I apologize for not being clear.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by yvj

I'm a bit skeptical about that.

What's there to be happy about? Satisfied sure, complacent yeah but happy that's suspicious.

Why did you quote me? I just quoted the "happy" Narona said. And i think she replied to you.
If they want to be happy or sad or angry or whatever, let them be. Not my problem.
Did anything bring down my Kalulu-Giga-Drill-Breaker that keeps drilling the underline-canon wall? No.
So, everything's all right with the world. To each his own.

[Lolipopo]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

I think Narona was not talking about Kalulu fans. Quite the opposite, for the other fans, as in they saw "objectivity" around this section {that according to a lot of people has been lost forever} and that made them happy.

I think Yvj talked about those people (Or I misunderstood)

Now I'll not buy the "people are avoiding RT cause bad bad Kalulu fans"; If people can back up their statements, they will post.
Now in accordance to Lie, Mystique, Blotty, Frost, Kanalelou (Lol where is Celiss ? ), 2ch (*off*) and the others translators I forgot; the point is still there: Aishiteru is too strong of a word to be used without reasons; We saw this on CG, Lelouch used that only for Nunnally his raison d'être, so for Kalln to think such a word could have been used for her...

The main argument is there; Is Kallen delusional ? Is she the kind of girl who got an high opinion of herself when it comes to feelings ?
Is it IC for her to assume this word in a line implying had he not be kind, he would have told her that ?
So could it be possible for her to be wrong hen it comes to her understanding of his feelings for her when it was the culmination of her devellopment ?

That's what I have an hard time to buy, cause Kallen never striked me as the kind of woman able to make such presomption without back up.
And through her, I think we got writers words...I don't think their point was to make of her girl wrong in her conclusion. Hell, she understood ZR just while seeing ZR, so isn't it possible for her to understood Lelouh's feelings through their interactions, his actions toward her, their kiss, and so on ?

LOL when I'm serious people barely pay attention to me. When I'm being goofy I get fire and brimstone.

I do not win.

You are like Kallen

[yvj]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Why did you quote me? I just quoted the "happy" Narona said. And i think she replied to you.
If they want to be happy or sad or angry or whatever, let them be. Not my problem.
Did anything bring down my Kalulu-Giga-Drill-Breaker that keeps drilling the underline-canon wall? No.
So, everything's all right with the world. To each his own.

I quoted you because you were the setup to my joke XD And to set up the definition of tongue and cheek

Oh God I'll never fulfill my dream of being a comedian.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by yvj

I said secret parades were being held. If that did not at least show a bit of lack of sincerity then I apologize for not being clear.

Not secret parade, but even if you "don't see it", many people don't like how the kalulu talk to them, including me.

Now what I asked to mystique was supposed to be private. But when she posted that, some other people read it, and supposed it was me who asked. And asked to me by PMs, and on MSN when I returned from school if it was me who asked it. There is also someone who asked to me, as a joke, if I tried to cause WWIII.

Anyway, my PMs box is mostly always full even when I erase dozens of PMs every week, there is a reason to that.

Now, if you think that's because we can't back up our arguments, fine, think what you want, but even me started to prefer to talk in good atmosphere with some people. Including talking in private to some Kalulu fans. An example: Lv23 (sorry girl, I hope some people will not annoy you too much)