Real life gundam

[baratman]

Originally Posted by Tri-ring

Sinpers with 50mm armor peircing rifles in jungle terrain?
doubt it and even if they were there they'll need to kill with the first shot since the sniper's position will easily be marked with something that big. Same with RPGs.

Well, you are correct. Juggle terrain mitigates whatever range advantage a sniper rifle has. In fact, jungle fighting and urban fighting are almost the same.

However, the jungle is also a nice place to put mines. Although they are banned by some convention (Geneva?) they are still being manufactured. They'll also be dirt cheap. Whatever advantages your mecha will present will be offset by the number of cheaper countermeasures that could be used against it.

[mechabao]

Originally Posted by Tri-ring

I still do not understand which part you are talking about.
Unless you are implying that the bipedal vehicle steps on itself, the weight of a multi-ton vehicle does not come crashing down on itself.
Now which parts?

You said that your mecha is going to mimic the way humans walk(dynamic ambulation blah blah blah). Meaning that you put most, if not all of your weight on the leg that you just set down in front of you while you lift the other leg, swing it forward and set it down. Rinse, repeat.

Now 4Tran's question was: How would your multi-ton mecha's legs and/or frame support it's own weight while walking?

Massive capacitor bank?How big do you think it will be?
The size will probably be smaller than a cooler box and the transfer will probably be no bigger then a ATX PC case with present day heavy electronics technology.
Actuators will be mounted to the frame. Electronic systems will be stored in the torso with redundant system and relays. Limb balance is done by the actuators with electronic sensors.
I don't see why you can't accept the fact that wheeled vehicles are driven by a heavy drivetrain system. Try studying car mechanics more.

Oooh redundant electronics systems like the ones in really, really expensive modern fighter aircraft on a ground vehicle just to make sure the mecha's able to keep moving in case the primary systems fail? Why don't we just burn the exact amount of cash that the mecha would cost? At least then we could have a barbecue.

Who said so?
What is your basis?
Again baseless opinion stated as fact.

Who said that your mecha is going to use Chobham armor? You?

Why fixated on 9mm?

This coming from the guy who thinks that 3mm of aluminum armor is supposed to offer ballistic protection or that a giant walking mecha could actually work in a jungle.

T-72
Weight 41.5 tonnes (45.7 short tons)
Length 9.53 m (31 ft 3 in)
Width 3.59 m (11 ft 9 in)
Height 2.23 m (7 ft 4 in)
Now only if you can bring in a 40 tonne tank into the jungle and I will be impressed.

Now only if you can bring in a 6m x 2.5m x 2.5m, 7 to 12 ton bipedal robot into the jungle and we will all be impressed.

Tanks also have ground clearance and any obstacle larger and the tank need to evade completely or choose a path(if there is one) so that atleast one of it's tracks will ride over that obstacle or the tank will hit the obstacle with it's underbelly.

How nice of you to ignore the M1 Abrams' ability to traverse vertical obstacles of 42 inches. I think it's safe to assume that other modern MBTs have approximately the same clearance. Oops! You also ignored the spec sheet that says that the M1 Abrams can hit 17mph on 10% slopes. So there goes your whole "tanks can only move at 5 kilometers per hour on 10% slopes" argument.

Who's making the baseless assumptions now?

Legitimate arguements?
LOL.

Nice dodge there, champ.

Unfortunately for you, ignoring the problems your mecha faces won't make them magically go away.

[willyvereb]

I think it's more than impressive that Tri-ring could think out a mecha that actually almost usable with the current technology...I think it's good enough to prove that the mechas may have future.(because of the technological advancements i mentioned in some of myy earlier posts, many of the mentioned problems are going to be nullified)

[Patriot's Blade]

but civilian use mechas comes first, military versions comes later.

[willyvereb]

Probably...same as with every kind of "vehicle". Actually the first generation of civillian-use mechas are almost ready.

[mechabao]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

I think it's more than impressive that Tri-ring could think out a mecha that actually almost usable with the current technology...I think it's good enough to prove that the mechas may have future.(because of the technological advancements i mentioned in some of myy earlier posts, many of the mentioned problems are going to be nullified)

What? Tri-ring conveniently ignores the problems of building a present-day giant mecha while talking about how superior it is to current tracked and wheeled vehicle technology. He also thinks that miniguns make ideal fire support weapons on a ground-based vehicle because of their high ROF(500 - 4000 rounds per minute). If he's absolutely correct, then why don't modern militaries put miniguns on every ground vehicle that they have? Why stick to 7.62mm and .50 cal machine guns? Why stick to 25/30/40mm autocannons and grenade launchers?

Hell, I can do the same thing too. What about a land-based battleship? We can attach the same track system they use to move the space shuttle's launch pad to one of the remaining Iowa battleships. Can you imagine? Nine 16-inch guns will decimate enemy formations! It will also move at a speedy 1.5 kph on a flat, even surface while offering better firepower than any existing tank or artillery platform!

[willyvereb]

I know...but his suggestion about locomotion seems possible and that's what I was the most curious about. I have at least 4 suggestions for possible bipedal mecha controls(but all of them still has little faults...like in comfort, complexity, required computer performance...but they may work.)
About the minigun and chaingun. They're completely ridiculous for squad support role. Extreme weight, high RoF and questionable accuracy. If RoF is important then I should use something like the new experimental repeater developed by the Metal Storm. 10mm projectiles with theoretical RoF of one million(well it has many problems in reality to achieve that, but by using electrical ignition instead of the classic style we can adjust the RoF as we wish).
Same with the 6mm of aluminium armor. It could even barely stop a 9mm bullet. But all i cared is the locomotion and anything with it(pressure, strain, balance).

About your Land Battleship: Hm...it has no actuall use because the water-based battleships could do the same work(long range fire support) for the ground forces and it's already been developed. Not to mention moving that lumbering beast is a real pain. With that large size even surprise is impossible...
I got your point. A mecha with the current technology seems mostly useless...

[mechabao]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

I know...but his suggestion about locomotion seems possible and that's what I was the most curious about. I have at least 4 suggestions for possible bipedal mecha controls(but all of them still has little faults...like in comfort, complexity, required computer performance...but they may work.)
About the minigun and chaingun. They're completely ridiculous for squad support role. Extreme weight, high RoF and questionable accuracy. If RoF is important then I should use something like the new experimental repeater developed by the Metal Storm. 10mm projectiles with theoretical RoF of one million(well it has many problems in reality to achieve that, but by using electrical ignition instead of the classic style we can adjust the RoF as we wish).
Same with the 6mm of aluminium armor. It could even barely stop a 9mm bullet. But all i cared is the locomotion and anything with it(pressure, strain, balance).

Metal Storm only reaches the 1 million RPM mark because they're counting the individual barrels' ROF and multiplying it by the number of barrels in the array.

About your Land Battleship: Hm...it has no actuall use because the water-based battleships could do the same work(long range fire support) for the ground forces and it's already been developed. Not to mention moving that lumbering beast is a real pain. With that large size even surprise is impossible...
I got your point. A mecha with the current technology seems mostly useless...

Well my point was that yes, we could build it, but it wouldn't be practical.

[Tri-ring]

Originally Posted by mechabao

What? Tri-ring conveniently ignores the problems of building a present-day giant mecha while talking about how superior it is to current tracked and wheeled vehicle technology. He also thinks that miniguns make ideal fire support weapons on a ground-based vehicle because of their high ROF(500 - 4000 rounds per minute). If he's absolutely correct, then why don't modern militaries put miniguns on every ground vehicle that they have? Why stick to 7.62mm and .50 cal machine guns? Why stick to 25/30/40mm autocannons and grenade launchers?

Let's get this nonsense over with, after reading meaningless rants I wrote again briefly in an earlier posting the design philosophy of the vehicle and armament but I guess most people didn't understand.

Weaponry of this vehicle is also based on operating enviorment where soft target will be primary and the need to target hard targets will be limited.

You don't need more than a 9mm to target humans and it is a complete overkill to throw 25mm or larger caliber bullets in a jungle terrain.
Basically those are used against hard targets like armored vehicles and/or wall barriers and since any and all REAL LIFE vehicle have limited carrying capacity you're required to choose the best weapon system based on the terrain the vehicle is designed to operate.
Really think on why there are so many different calibers before going on a mindless war path.

As for civillian-use, here is a possiblity.

If you pair it with the present running capability of Asimo it probably run at around 18Km/h.
(One revision, the proposed walker's top speed is based on a eariler Asimo version with a top speed of 3Km/h the revised version can do 6Km/h so top speed would add up to around 36Km/h)

[willyvereb]

Originally Posted by mechabao

Metal Storm only reaches the 1 million RPM mark because they're counting the individual barrels' ROF and multiplying it by the number of barrels in the array.

Well it could reach even higher RoF, but even the current one highly wears of the barrels. Still any of the individual barrels are far surpasses the gatlings and chainguns in general without any heavy mechanical part.It's more than enough for me.

Originally Posted by mechabao

Well my point was that yes, we could build it, but it wouldn't be practical.

But it doesn't mean we should give up on that. Using a hot air balloon in actual combat were impractical. Same with the mechas currently. Luckily as with the Baloons the mechas are improving too even without any intent to use them in the military.

Originally Posted by Tri-ring

You don't need more than a 9mm to target humans and it is a complete overkill to throw 25mm or larger caliber bullets in a jungle terrain.
Basically those are used against hard targets like armored vehicles and/or wall barriers and since any and all REAL LIFE vehicle have limited carrying capacity you're required to choose the best weapon system based on the terrain the vehicle is designed to operate.
Really think on why there are so many different calibers before going on a mindless war path.

Actually it's only half true. You don't even need something as "powerful" as a 9x19mm Parabellum to target (and kill) living targets. It's other thing that we need at least standard rifle rounds(or something with similar stopping power) to actually call it effective at long ranges. Perhaps maybe you mispelled something and you meant a 9mm handgun more than enough to kill. Perhaps a 25mm gun actually a cannon and as you said it's a waste to use it casually on soft targets. The only other round i can think of the bigger 12.7mm cathegory or something that just recently developed..So i think your choice of ammunition was right.

Originally Posted by Tri-ring

As for civillian-use, here is a possiblity.
If you pair it with the present running capability of Asimo it probably run at around 18Km/h.
(One revision, the proposed walker's top speed is based on a eariler Asimo version with a top speed of 3Km/h the revised version can do 6Km/h so top speed would add up to around 36Km/h)

I am more curious about the future industrial use of the (multi-legged) mecha. Perhaps it's good to see how goes the current development of the artifical bipedal movement.

[mechabao]

Originally Posted by Tri-ring

Let's get this nonsense over with, after reading meaningless rants I wrote again briefly in an earlier posting the design philosophy of the vehicle and armament but I guess most people didn't understand.

You don't need more than a 9mm to target humans and it is a complete overkill to throw 25mm or larger caliber bullets in a jungle terrain.
Basically those are used against hard targets like armored vehicles and/or wall barriers and since any and all REAL LIFE vehicle have limited carrying capacity you're required to choose the best weapon system based on the terrain the vehicle is designed to operate.
Really think on why there are so many different calibers before going on a mindless war path.

It's still too big to fit in a jungle. Explain to us how it's supposed to move through dense trees and undergrowth, and how it's supposed to handle treacherous terrain features first before you go on ranting about gun rounds.

As for civillian-use, here is a possiblity.

Spoiler for space-eater video:

If you pair it with the present running capability of Asimo it probably run at around 18Km/h.
(One revision, the proposed walker's top speed is based on a eariler Asimo version with a top speed of 3Km/h the revised version can do 6Km/h so top speed would add up to around 36Km/h)

Spoiler for another space-eater video:

Care to explain exactly how doubling the speed on a 1 meter tall robot doubles the speed of the 6 meter tall one? Also please explain exactly how the robot's frame will be able to withstand the impact on its legs if it runs. You do know how the mechanics of human running works, right?

[willyvereb]

It means he based the speed of the mecha on the speed of Asimo. Simply multiplied the it's speed with the scale difference. Perhaps it's not always shows the truth, But it shows how fast can move a mecha if it moves just like the Asimo.

[mechabao]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

It means he based the speed of the mecha on the speed of Asimo. Simply multiplied the it's speed with the scale difference. Perhaps it's not always shows the truth, But it shows how fast can move a mecha if it moves just like the Asimo.

Unfortunately, things aren't that simple. And you missed my point. The point I was trying to make was that it's not a simple matter of scaling sizes up. The giant robot also has to scale up the speed at which it moves its legs as well as take into consideration the maximum amount of weight that its legs can handle. Unfortunately, Tri-ring, as usual, oversimplifies his mecha's method of locomotion.

[C.A.]

Originally Posted by baratman

Well, you are correct. Juggle terrain mitigates whatever range advantage a sniper rifle has. In fact, jungle fighting and urban fighting are almost the same.

As a soldier trained in both jungle and urban warfare, I can tell you they are very different

In the jungle you fight by sweeping the terrain and doing fire movements in platoon or larger strength, and sometimes in foxholes and trenches. Generally the fire fight has considerable distance, you can get cover and concealment from the terrain and camoflague, you can run also in various directions.

In an urban fight, you fight by sweeping from room to room in small squads. Your fight will be extremely close ranged and each corner is a threat to you, you expose yourself at every corner, which is why they invent lots of corner shooting technology nowadays. You advance by staying close to walls and moving along it, all the while having your team members covering your backs and blind spots. When you're ambushed, your escape routes are usually limited by the way you came in.

For the modern sniper, you don't stay in the same spot, you change your position immediately after every shot, especially in urban situations.

While the jungle terrain seems to be too dense for snipers, they don't fight in the same patch of vegetation as their targets. Snipers search for high ground as their vantage points, they target clearings and open ground, small openings between groups of trees, paths and trails etc. The sniper can easily escape if the enemy doesn't spot his muzzle flash, knowing the general direction of his shot won't help much as well as he's probably very far and, on another hill or some where extremely hard to reach.

A sniper in an urban environment gets his range shortened more than in a jungle, unless he's sniper from the top of a hill outside the town or something. The sniper must change position with every shot quickly because the urban environment is less disorientating than a jungle. The sniper must have a good escape route if he's spotted and move fast, if not the enemy may trap him in the building he used as cover, especially if he's on a higher floor, running down staircases will be instantly discovered by the enemy.

[Tri-ring]

Originally Posted by mechabao

Unfortunately, things aren't that simple. And you missed my point. The point I was trying to make was that it's not a simple matter of scaling sizes up. The giant robot also has to scale up the speed at which it moves its legs as well as take into consideration the maximum amount of weight that its legs can handle. Unfortunately, Tri-ring, as usual, oversimplifies his mecha's method of locomotion.

I haven't over simplifed anything, it's your reluctance to educate yourself of the subject that is the problem.
Try elaborating why it's not simple.
I already written the amount of actuators and the load each actuators needs to handle. Give me a substantial arguement that it is not possible.
As I have written several times, if response speed of an actuator and limit of leg speration angle(stride) is the same then speed multiplies with the length of the leg.
Since there is no know limit in scaling of stride the only foreseeable reason is pitch or actuator response speed but that is why I proposed using multiple electro magnetic/hydrulic hybrid actuators.
Give it your best shot.

[Keio]

@Tri-ring
Guess you must have missed all of those previous posts with supporting links. You didn't even address my post that pointed out that an Abrams tank can climb a 10% slope faster than your mecha moving at top speed on a flat surface. And before you say baseless yet again, the source of that information is from the General Dynamics website, the manufacturer of the Abrams tank themselves.

So who is making the baseless arguments now?

[Tri-ring]

Originally Posted by Keio

@Tri-ring
Guess you must have missed all of those previous posts with supporting links. You didn't even address my post that pointed out that an Abrams tank can climb a 10% slope faster than your mecha moving at top speed on a flat surface. And before you say baseless yet again, the source of that information is from the General Dynamics website, the manufacturer of the Abrams tank themselves.

So who is making the baseless arguments now?

And again not even taking a bit of consideration of the operating terrain and just bring in the mightest.
M1A1 weighs around 60 tonnes try fitting that into a jungle terrain.
I already pointed this out with the T-72 example.
Complete waste of time.

[Patriot's Blade]

meh, i guess some people still prefer transforming into an Ultraman, rather than piloting a Mech.

[mechabao]

Originally Posted by Tri-ring

I haven't over simplifed anything, it's your reluctance to educate yourself of the subject that is the problem.
Try elaborating why it's not simple.
I already written the amount of actuators and the load each actuators needs to handle. Give me a substantial arguement that it is not possible.
As I have written several times, if response speed of an actuator and limit of leg speration angle(stride) is the same then speed multiplies with the length of the leg.
Since there is no know limit in scaling of stride the only foreseeable reason is pitch or actuator response speed but that is why I proposed using multiple electro magnetic/hydrulic hybrid actuators.
Give it your best shot.

Then what do you call taking Asimo's height and speed and multiplying it by 6 to get your numbers? What about mass/weight issues and mechanical stresses on such a large frame? Did you think about scaling up the actuators' speed as well? How about considering travel distance for the actuators?

Originally Posted by Tri-ring

And again not even taking a bit of consideration of the operating terrain and just bring in the mightest.
M1A1 weighs around 60 tonnes try fitting that into a jungle terrain.
I already pointed this out with the T-72 example.
Complete waste of time.

You still haven't explained how your 6 meter tall, 2.5 meter wide mecha is supposed to fit inside a jungle. We're still waiting for your explanation so stop wasting our time.

[willyvereb]

The only thing i can imagine that it could walk in a partially crouched state...But that's all. I think too that 6m is somewhat high for jungle warfare.