Character Discussion - Kallen

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

Her mother seemed to abandon her, only to live under the same roof as her and another woman who accused Kallen of being a whore to her face and in front of her friends.

As I recall she called Kallen's mother a whore, not Kallen herself. Of course, carrying the accusation along wouldn't be that much of a surprise.

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

She then abandons him and for all she knows, plays a hand not in the liberation of her people, but in the failure of that very attempt.

It was pretty much dead anyway, but this could be a fair point.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

As I recall she called Kallen's mother a whore, not Kallen herself. Of course, carrying the accusation along wouldn't be that much of a surprise.

actually she seems surprised to see that its milly (a girl)
she says that she was expecting a guy
she says that kallen had been "coming home in the morning and not going to school, and sneaking in and out of the ghetto"
and she says that its "like mother like daughter", when you remember that kallen's mother is technically her father's mistress

only to be countered by kallen telling her off for being "the one who enjoys father's absence the most"

@betteroffer
thats a nice summery (that ironiclly doesnt even begin to cover the points that I raised)

but i would question the Suicide by Cop bit
i dont think that its a case of having a death wish
suzaku had a death wish
kallen really DID want to try and make her brother's dream happen
she just had no illusion about her chances, and had accepted the fact that she would almost certainly die trying
she didnt necessarily WANT to die, she just didnt care

[Nobodyman9]

Short answer.

Yes, Kallen had to put up with a lot, but so did a lot of the characters on Code Geass. Shit happens, fact of life. What matters is how you handle and respond to it. I'd say Kallen did quite all right for herself all things considered. Sometimes it's not about how much you suffer or what intensity it is, because some people can take it better than other. What matters is how you bounce back.

On a little side note. To be honest here, personally, for me, this about rationalizing my disdain for......whatever it is I'm disdaining. I don't whether it's Kallen, or Kalulu, or Kalulu fans, or Shirley's death, or Shirley's lack of attention, or what have you. So yeah, that's my soapbox right there.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

actually she seems surprised to see that its milly (a girl)
she says that she was expecting a guy
she says that kallen had been "coming home in the morning and not going to school, and sneaking in and out of the ghetto"
and she says that its "like mother like daughter", when you remember that kallen's mother is technically her father's mistress

only to be countered by kallen telling her off for being "the one who enjoys father's absence the most"

On review, you're right, the "like mother like daughter" accusation is pretty clear.

[Witacume]

oh man is Kalulu so canon that we got bored that we need to make it even more canon.
Man crazy
is that even possible?!?!?!

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Witacume

oh man is Kalulu so canon that we got bored that we need to make it even more canon.
Man crazy
is that even possible?!?!?!

we arent actually talking about kalulu (for once )
were talking about kallen specifically
were talking about how its shocking that she's still sane

@nobodyman7

the question of how she reacted to it may be a HUGH point in her favor
but the fact of the matter is that she did go through alot of shit

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

As I recall she called Kallen's mother a whore, not Kallen herself. Of course, carrying the accusation along wouldn't be that much of a surprise.

When her stepmother sees Milly at the door, she said she was "sure it would have been a boy." Her tone made it pretty certain to me that she didin't mean she thought Kallen was one to have innocent schoolgirl crushes. She also said something about Kallen running off to the ghetto if I recall.

Originally Posted by morbosfist

It was pretty much dead anyway, but this could be a fair point.

At the very least, the BK wouldn't have been a scattered shell for over a year. If Lelouch couldn't pull something off to turn the Black Rebellion around, then he could at least have prevented so many of the BK from getting caught, and staged some jailbreaks for those who were. Beyond this, Kallen seems like she would place excessive blame on herself for this.

It would be interesting to see the scripts for the 3 original R2 episodes, since they might give us an idea, though I could still see the BK probably losing.

EDIT: Oops, too slow.

@ Blade: I stopped about where you started because you had already covered everything afterwards so well.

[bladeofdarkness]

yeah
and just to be completely insufferable
she also doesnt get the girl (guy) in the end
she gets to know that he loved her (past tense)
but she doesnt get to BE with him

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

@nobodyman7

the question of how she reacted to it may be a HUGH point in her favor
but the fact of the matter is that she did go through alot of shit

As I said, everyone went through a lot of shit. Of course how much you think a person truly suffered is relative.

Also, LOL. 7?

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

yeah
and just to be completely insufferable
she also doesnt get the girl (guy) in the end
she gets to know that he loved her (past tense)
but she doesnt get to BE with him

Aww, she didn't get the guy in the end? Join the f-ing club. At least she "knew" he loved her, which is more than some people got.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

As I said, everyone went through a lot of shit. Of course how much you think a person truly suffered is relative.

Also, LOL. 7? :heh.

yeah
just noticed

Aww, she didn't get the guy in the end? Join the f-ing club. At least she "knew" he loved her, which is more than some people got.

join the f-ing club ?
thats just the FINAL nail

[yvj]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

join the f-ing club ?
thats just the FINAL nail

What he's getting at is Shirley got shited on as well if not worse if you see the "concentrated" nature of it in a shorter period of time. Of course Shirley in the long run had a pretty decent life compared to Kallen, her end result is undeniably worse.

So it's your pick do you want to judge by the end result or the lifelong project? But this is likely headed into a who got fucked over worst contest which is only going to end up being a thinly veiled shipping fight.

And the worst of it is, the argument can easily lend itself to having an underlying Yaoi nature when Suzaku gets involved because he didn't lay on a bed of roses either.

Neither did Rolo.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

join the f-ing club ?
thats just the FINAL nail

Well, as I've said before, I'm not debating that Kallen didn't suffer. She suffered at least as much as any other character on the show. How much she suffered doesn't matter. What matters is how her character worked around it and how it all worked out for her. So lets get down to the real argument here. Is Kallen a Mary Sue? Well, no not really. But I'd say she's definitely one of the more Mary Sue-ish characters on the show.

[bladeofdarkness]

i kinda see what you mean by the "got fucked over worst contest"
though i still put my money on kallen in that regard, if only for sheer length and breath of it
but i suppose it is best not to enter into one

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Well, as I've said before, I'm not debating that Kallen didn't suffer. She suffered at least as much as any other character on the show. How much she suffered doesn't matter. What matters is how her character worked around it and how it all worked out for her. So lets get down to the real argument here. Is Kallen a Mary Sue? Well, no not really. But I'd say she's definitely one of the more Mary Sue-ish characters on the show.

how so ?
she is FAR from portrayed as perfect like lelouch or shnizel

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

how so ?
she is FAR from portrayed as perfect like lelouch or shnizel

Lelouch and Schneizel perfect? Both are pretty much megalomaniacs that use highly questionable means to fulfill their agendas. I mean, hell, one of the greatest appeals about Lelouch is his flawed nature. The fact that he uses Machiovellian means to procure his desires comes back to bite him in the ass countless times throughout the course of the show.

But this is really about Kallen. So go ahead, humor me. Name me some flaws with her character.

I actually have to go now, but I'll be back tomorrow.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Lelouch and Schneizel perfect? Both are pretty much megalomaniacs that use highly questionable means to fulfill their agendas. I mean, hell, one of the greatest appeals about Lelouch is his flawed nature. The fact that he uses Machiovellian means to procure his desires comes back to bite him in the ass countless times throughout the course of the show.

But this is really about Kallen. So go ahead, humor me. Name me some flaws with her character.

I actually have to go now, but I'll be back tomorrow.

stubbornness
hot-headed (easily set off)
impulsive (the sort that backfires repeatedly)
arrogant at times ("i'm the ace of the black knights")
she may be "book smart", but in R2 she gets handed a LOT of idiot balls
easily manipulated
love martyr
suicidel recklessness (almost to the extent that rivals suzaku's)
prone to mis-interpret people's motives concerning her (her mother, lelouch)
cold blooded killer (could be considered a flaw)

[Betteroffer]

She also displays a level of racism. She makes comments about the Britannians sucking their city dry, and says "This is why I hate Britannians," at several points.

She pulled out her knife when Lelouch mentioned Shinjuku and when Shirley said she "knew her secret" implying that she would have been willing to kill 17 year old civilians for no other reason than to maintain her cover, not for a mission.

Her poem admits that she thought her fight was pointless, ergo she was intending to fight and kill soldiers and civilians (mostly the latter as she WAS a terrorist before Zero appeared) for essentially no reason other than to take someone down with her.

A strong sense of justice can easily blend into self-righteousness.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

stubbornness
hot-headed (easily set off)
impulsive (the sort that backfires repeatedly)
6. arrogant at times ("i'm the ace of the black knights")
2. she may be "book smart", but in R2 she gets handed a LOT of idiot balls
3. easily manipulated
l5. ove martyr
suicidel recklessness (almost to the extent that rivals suzaku's)
prone to mis-interpret people's motives concerning her (her mother, lelouch)
1. cold blooded killer (could be considered a flaw)

1+2 = Lol, actually this is worse than her being dump-dump to strategics. And i honestly, i do no get how people can hold back this for Kallen. The girl is smart. She is just not Lelouch-Zero mind when it comes to planning and executing plans and stuff. Could hardly see this as a flaw, seeing how pretty much everyone got this "flaw" except the genius Geass-minds.
And lolx2, what easily manipulated? Are you talking about Lelouch being able to play mind games with her? He did this with everyone. Why differentiate her?

And ah, love martyr? This is not a flaw.

And the last one {6}, ah she has a point? She is the ace of Black Knights, why not tell it aloud? If you can pwn, you do pwn, and that is, period.

I will agree with betteroffer though, the things he pointed are pretty much what put me off when it came to Kallen at certain moments. Especially the whole "imma kill you Shirley cause this and that." Though at that certain point and how the scene was displayed, it was more like humorous, but still.

[bladeofdarkness]

while i dont really disagree with you (nobody asked for flaw, these can be viewed as such in some cases)
i am scratching my head over your numbering system for my post

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

while i dont really disagree with you (nobody asked for flaw, these can be viewed as such in some cases)
i am scratching my head over your numbering system for my post

Not really, those are not flaws by the definition. What betteroffer said though, those yes, are dick-flaws actually. Kallen did not qualify much for goody-goody on the beginning, and i am not saying Shirley or Milly -goody, but as a good/"ethical" person as well. It was kinda weird in the beginning, till you got to know this chara more. //but after Stage 9, onboard for lesbian love for Kallen, hahaha.

Also, it would help if you did post with paragraphs every once in a while blade, but you do not, so i sometimes have to number-stuff, so i will not lose track and you will get my reply. 8D

p.s Mary-Sue btw, that term has lost its meaning. Yuuki from Vampire Knight is a Mary-Sue for example, Kallen is not a Mary Sue, please. The girl is a terrorist, that alone stands to wash her clean from this term.

[Bonzo]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

A few weeks later, she inadvertantly kills one of her best friend's parents.

Hmmm...who was?