[Anime] Umineko - Spoilers & Expectations (for experienced VN readers only)

[maximilianjenus]

I agree with you, I mean, we did not really get any arguments back from the anty-mistery guys, so I guess ryukishi wanted to make them stronger by givin them more basis for arguments.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by maximilianjenus

I agree with you, I mean, we did not really get any arguments back from the anty-mistery guys

The reason for this is because you don't LET us argue by essentially stating your viewpoint as 100% correct.

The above statement may not be representative of the truth, and may instead by a representative of the growing bitterness of its writer.

[LyricalAura]

There is a partial anti-mystery theory which says that since the game proper didn't begin until the end of Episode 1 when Battler challenged Beatrice, the narrator for that episode is trustworthy and everything we were shown is true. Under that theory, the golden butterflies actually exist, and Kinzo is present to speak with Natsuhi in some non-barbecued form that doesn't violate the human limit (for instance as a ghost, or reanimated by Beatrice or something). It's supported by Battler personally seeing Beatrice, Kinzo, and golden butterflies in the study prior to midnight at the end of Episode 2.

If that theory is correct, then what Ryukishi may be doing with the anime in episode 5 is preemptively killing the Episode 2 theory that Battler got drunk and hallucinated everything that happened in the study (which in my opinion was pretty ridiculous to begin with).

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

There is a partial anti-mystery theory which says that since the game proper didn't begin until the end of Episode 1 when Battler challenged Beatrice, the narrator for that episode is trustworthy and everything we were shown is true. Under that theory, the golden butterflies actually exist, and Kinzo is present to speak with Natsuhi in some non-barbecued form that doesn't violate the human limit (for instance as a ghost, or reanimated by Beatrice or something). It's supported by Battler personally seeing Beatrice, Kinzo, and golden butterflies in the study prior to midnight at the end of Episode 2.

If that theory is correct, then what Ryukishi may be doing with the anime in episode 5 is preemptively killing the Episode 2 theory that Battler got drunk and hallucinated everything that happened in the study (which in my opinion was pretty ridiculous to begin with).

So far the anime has not contradicted the rule that Battler never sees anything that can prove witches imho.

-The golden butterflies don't appear where Battler can see them until exactly after midnight. This has to have some significance. Mabye Battler dies somehow at exactly midnight and whatever happens after that is just an illusion.

-Battler never sees Kinzo

-We'll see how they handle the end of episode 2...

[SealedTime]

The stakes were really cute on Beatrice's white day! Asmodeus, Satan, Belphegor and Lucifer FTW!!

[Ithekro]

I can totally see Satan's actress being able to pull that off.

[MeoTwister5]

So how many people like me are still sitting on the fence, waiting for Ep5 stuff to start making choose a side? Stupid Neutral FTW!

And someone just speculated in the other thread that Natsuhi may have lied and that Kinzo may have been dead and she never really saw him. Man I wished I had come inkling of that when I finished Ep3.

[SealedTime]

I'm sad to say that I have never thought of that until EPI4 >__>

[Jan-Poo]

One of the poster there came up with the same exact theory I had at the time.

I thought Gohda killed the other five plus Kinzo, and then with Genji as accomplice he set up a way to create a witness (natsuhi) of Kinzo being still alive. The point is I never thought it was possible for Kinzo to be that kind to Natsuhi so it had to be another person ^^;
Thinking about it now, Krauss was more probable, because Gohda's build is probably noticeably different from Kinzo's.

Of course now that we know that no body double exist and that every unidentified corpse's identity is confirmed this theory isn't valid anymore. However since I always thought there was an X person, the fact that Kinzo was death since the beginning (considering that he was also supposed to be dead for a while) wasn't a big surprise to me. Too bad the limit decreased to 17 XD.

What I don't get it is how the hell they are talking about schroedinger cat already. And that is even false because "belief" has nothing to do with that theory, and if Battler was thinking that way already he wouldn't need Virgilia to help him in Ep3 -_-

[TheForsaken]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I thought Gohda killed the other five plus Kinzo, and then with Genji as accomplice he set up a way to create a witness (natsuhi) of Kinzo being still alive. The point is I never thought it was possible for Kinzo to be that kind to Natsuhi so it had to be another person ^^;
Thinking about it now, Krauss was more probable, because Gohda's build is probably noticeably different from Kinzo's.

I think that because it's too different so that it must be him
Let's flip the chessboard
If someone is disguising as Kinzou he should act like him (too stupid if not doing so), and more important, chase Natsuhi out of the room immediately (Natsuhi comfirm he is alive, so the job is done, now chase her away before she notices something strange), not drag on the conversation and say unnecessary kind stuff.

[Jan-Poo]

At the time I thought the culprit was relying on Natsuhi's stupidy, after all she didn't find that behaviour strange. Now I simply think that it was all natsuhi's delusion and she saw and heard whatever she wanted to see and hear.

[maximilianjenus]

Following the killer milfs theory (the longest surviving female adult is the arc's culprit, while being helped by kanon-jessica), means that yep, natsuhi lies about kinzo. I prefer natsuhi lying to there being magic in the first arc.

and kanon= ushiromiya battler = shannon = the culprit = beatrice = kinzo (just kidding).

[EDIT]

yeah, it looks like someone from the aniem only topic spoiled himself with too much novel info, probably from 4chan/a blog.

[TheForsaken]

Natsuhi is the culprit or not doesn't matter. She claimed that she met Kinzou, so it's a fact that she lied.

But I think that scene is a flashback, and Kinzou truly said those words. If we say that it is so out of character, then what exactly do we know about his character anyway? 90% of what the game showed us about him are lies after all

[Jan-Poo]

I don't think the "lies" are complete "lies". I think the "lies" are just an "enhanced" versions of the truth. The "form" might be fake but the "substance" is right.
Not like I can prove that, but I'm going with such premises, else half of the story wouldn't make any sense.

[maximilianjenus]

yah, bernkastel's whoel ordeal about scribbling on the chess board.

[rogerpepitone]

About the Natsuhi meeting Kinzo thing:
Isn't it mentioned that he was facing away from her the entire time? Why do that if she was lying completely? But it could matter if she was somehow deceived; the red text about "nobody would mistake Kinzo by sight" wouldn't apply in such a case.

[maximilianjenus]

Yes, and eva's paper trick si very easy to spot, just see death note.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

About the Natsuhi meeting Kinzo thing:
Isn't it mentioned that he was facing away from her the entire time? Why do that if she was lying completely? But it could matter if she was somehow deceived; the red text about "nobody would mistake Kinzo by sight" wouldn't apply in such a case.

I also thought that, but Klash pointed out that there is passage in the text where it is said that Kinzo "faced away again", which would make think that for a moment he turned to Natsuhi.

And yeah this kind of dismantled the theory that someone else was impersonating Kinzo.

[Alaya]

Originally Posted by maximilianjenus

yeah, it looks like someone from the aniem only topic spoiled himself with too much novel info, probably from 4chan/a blog.

I heard there's some one who played VN alongside the anime. He play the VN up until where anime stop and wait for another week or something like that.

Well, but it could not be true too...

[MarthX]

It's nearly impossible to browse or post on /a/ or /jp/ without being spoiled for anything new.