(L) Phantom ~Requiem for the Phantom~ (Nitroplus & Bee Train)

[Xander]

Originally Posted by orion

The point is that the studio changed an established game route true ending. This is like changing Ayu's true ending. Kyoani wouldn't do it but this sh*t a** did. Some things studios are not suppose to do imo.

I understand your point, but I wasn't talking about that. I think it's fair for you to criticize the ending along those lines, but it's also fair to accept it, regardless of one's interpretation. I was providing one way to look at it.

In the end, at the very least it can be assumed that Bee Train probably expected all kinds of reactions.

I imagine that the Japanese fans are probably also divided in their feelings towards this ending.

[Zwei]

Let's just think of it this way.

They gave us, Elen fans, the Road of the Cerulean Sky ending BUT, at the last 30 seconds, they also wanted to suck up to Cal fans as well and also all those people who wanted Reiji dead.

I would have been content, BUT no, they just had to skip the wedding scene between Reiji and Elen. That was like, 40% of the reason I was watching this.

[frubam]

Originally Posted by orion

The point is that the studio changed an established game route true ending. This is like changing Ayu's or Nagisa's true ending. Kyoani wouldn't do it but this sh*t a** did.

If it was the true ending, I wouldn't complain one bit. Some things studios are not suppose to do imo.

While what you say makes sense, don't you think a bit of change should be welcomed? I mean they DID in a sense stay within the realm and style of the story, and having this sort of ending at least causes for some discussion and analysis rather that the cliche "it was a nice ending, blah, blah, blah". Else, if it were EXACTLY like the VN, there wouldn't be much to discuss with all the people who've watched the VN and would be boring, since we already know what happened.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Ugh come on.... I can't believe people are not even disappointed at this ending.

ELITE ASSASSIN!! Not just elite. The ELITE OF THE ELITES WITH SPECIAL SHARINGAN LIKE EYES!!!! Ten million bullets flying couldn't kill him. People with semi-automatics and M16s couldn't lay a bullet on him. Snipers couldn't even hit him.

Then he just got killed in the back by an unknown assailant. That is just so stupid.

[DeadlySoldier37]

WTF was this bullshit. Just when I though what a nice ending, and then boom everything just shattered, honestly when I saw that cart driver passing through I was like oh shit! turn around Reiji.

Honestly I think that Elen died because of her lack of reaction to Reiji's death. I highly doubt she would just keep smiling like that and lay in the flower bed like nothing happened while Reiji is dead. I guess Elen though that she was also about to die and was about to be with him in the afterlife. It really was a sad ending.

I've been avoiding this thread since last episode because I didn't want to be spoiled and now that it's all over can anybody tell me how the real Elen ending finished in the VN?

[GDB]

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy

Ugh come on.... I can't believe people are not even disappointed at this ending.

Where have you been? A lot of people are disappointed.

[Lady Orihime]

Originally Posted by frubam

As ridiculous as a flower killing Elen sounds, that flower theory sounds very plausible. Still, even if Elen was further downhill, clearly intel from inferno would know that both of them are travelling together, esp if they knew their exact location to kill them. It just doesnt make sense really why Reiji would be the only one to get killed. So now that leans me over to the "Elen kills Reiji then kills herself" theory. DAMN, that's some amazing ****.

Not if the flower wasn't toxic, which it wasn't. Like I said before, they look like pansies, corn-cockles, gentians (which are very common in Mongolia), or geraniums (also common in Mongolia) to me, and those are far from being poisonous.
The only flower with toxic petals are from the Delphinium species, but even then, you'd have to consume a large quanity before they would become fatal. They also don't look anything like the flower Elen was looking at.

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

There in two different places. There appears to be a short timeskip here. It midday time with a bright blue sky and then next time we see Reiji standing on a hill during what appears to be sunset. Elen might have been in the area below and that why he used the silencer or in a completely different area either way a silencer would be used not to attract undue attention.

Still, that depends on how far apart they are.

Two bullet casings together wouldn't have made sense since they were in slightly different places. We know Reiji got shot so I don't believe they want us to believe that Elen was alive with her blankly staring up in the air and the next thing show is a bullet casing.

I don't think Elen looks like she's staring blankly into the sky. It just looks like she has a fixed stare, which is usually what happened when you are day dreaming, looking at the sky. As in almost all anime's, when a character dies, their iris's fade, and the little white reflection to light in the pupil disappears. Elen's eyes look the same as they always did when she wasn't in "killer mode".

Compare Cal's eyes to after she was shot, to before she was shot.

The fact we don't hear a second shot would mean that we'd need some sort of evidence to conclude she was shot.

Which is exactly what we need

[orion]

Originally Posted by DeadlySoldier37

I've been avoiding this thread since last episode because I didn't want to be spoiled and now that it's all over can anybody tell me how the real Elen ending finished in the VN?

They both lived.

----

The casing that was shown at the end is the one closest to where Reiji is standing imo. Elen is in a green area. Reiji is standing in front of a golden area.

That same analogy also goes for Reiji. His eyes didn't go cloudy either. He just collapsed.
---

Originally Posted by frubam

While what you say makes sense, don't you think a bit of change should be welcomed? I mean they DID in a sense stay within the realm and style of the story, and having this sort of ending at least causes for some discussion and analysis rather that the cliche "it was a nice ending, blah, blah, blah". Else, if it were EXACTLY like the VN, there wouldn't be much to discuss with all the people who've watched the VN and would be boring, since we already know what happened.

No, change is not welcome. This is a VN adaptation. They had loads of endings to choose from and they still screw over Elen. If they wanted to give us an alternate universe title, they should pick another franchise to mess up.

[Zwei]

Originally Posted by DeadlySoldier37

WTF was this bullshit. Just when I though what a nice ending, and then boom everything just shattered, honestly when I saw that cart driver passing through I was like oh shit! turn around Reiji.

Honestly I think that Elen died because of her lack of reaction to Reiji's death. I highly doubt she would just keep smiling like that and lay in the flower bed like nothing happened while Reiji is dead. I guess Elen though that she was also about to die and was about to be with him in the afterlife. It really was a sad ending.

I've been avoiding this thread since last episode because I didn't want to be spoiled and now that it's all over can anybody tell me how the real Elen ending finished in the VN?

Ugh, basically, almost the same as the anime, except you know, that particular scene.

Spoiler:

Road of the Cerulean Sky : Reiji will find Elen in the church, and after a tearful reunion they get married right there and then. Reiji insists on fighting Cal, and manages to get Elen to promise him to leave and wait for him, and that he would definitely return to her. Cal arrives at the appointed time, and takes out the pocket watch that Reiji bought for her 2 years ago from a street vendor while the two of them were preparing for the counter snipe operation. Setting it on the altar, she opens it, starting the music, and sets the stage for the duel. When the music stops, both go for their guns, but Reiji is faster and Cal suffers a fatal wound. In the end, as she lies dying in Reiji's arms, Cal forgives Reiji for everything. Shortly after, the Godoh group sends 20 men to assault the church. Reiji nearly runs out of ammo, but is saved by the sudden appearance of Elen, and they manage to escape.

Scythe arrives after the sun has set with the Zahlen Schwestern and manages to get Shiga to back off and let him handle the situation. In the ensuing battle, Elen shoots Scythe, and all the members of the Zahlen Schwestern are killed. When the semester starts, Mio, who was rescued from the ruins by Shiga(and who of course insisted it was a kidnapping motivated by money), cant help but feel it was a dream. Regardless, she resolves to live her life and meet the challenges of tomorrow.

Meanwhile, Elen and Reiji start a long and arduous investigation into Scythe and Elen's past, trying to discover her identity. They eventually trace her back to a Hong Kong brothel that handled young girls, and then to Ulan Bator, Mongolia, where the trail runs cold. Eventually a young translator gives them the advice to go to the grasslands and look at the sky to find Elen's homeland. With no other options, they do that, and Elen discovers that this place really is her homeland, and she ends the investigation, stating that she is satisfied just to be here with Reiji.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Zwei

Let's just think of it this way.

They gave us, Elen fans, the Road of the Cerulean Sky ending BUT, at the last 30 seconds, they also wanted to suck up to Cal fans as well and also all those people who wanted Reiji dead.

I would have been content, BUT no, they just had to skip the wedding scene between Reiji and Elen. That was like, 40% of the reason I was watching this.

A wedding wouldn't have fit in so well with this. It was a dark series and the two characters rarely showed romantic feelings to each other.

Originally Posted by DeadlySoldier37

WTF was this bullshit. Just when I though what a nice ending, and then boom everything just shattered, honestly when I saw that cart driver passing through I was like oh shit! turn around Reiji.

Honestly I think that Elen died because of her lack of reaction to Reiji's death. I highly doubt she would just keep smiling like that and lay in the flower bed like nothing happened while Reiji is dead. I guess Elen though that she was also about to die and was about to be with him in the afterlife. It really was a sad ending.

I've been avoiding this thread since last episode because I didn't want to be spoiled and now that it's all over can anybody tell me how the real Elen ending finished in the VN?

Yeah, I thought it was a perfect ending and was content with it until the cart pulled up and I was crushed.

But you can't expect Elen to react to something she does not know of. What we saw could have been at different locations, and even if they were close, a silencer was used and he quietly fell to the ground.

[g1alpha]

Here's a theory: Reiji gets shit and killed by the cart driver and falls down. Then Elen smiles while turning towards Reiji to look at him when she sees him dead and falls down on her back in disbelief.
Now state your objections

[orion]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

.

But you can't expect Elen to react to something she does not know of. What we saw could have been at different locations, and even if they were close, a silencer was used and he quietly fell to the ground.

Normal people turn around when a cart approaches. 2 people on the run are expected to turn around and take note. Assassins take note of their surroundings, especially those 2.

Originally Posted by g1alpha

Here's a theory: Reiji gets shit and killed by the cart driver and falls down. Then Elen smiles while turning towards Reiji to look at him when she sees him dead and falls down on her back in disbelief.
Now state your objections

It's out of character for any person to ignore someone who is dying. It's stupid for Elen to react that way.

It doesn't follow the VN.

[Zwei]

Some of my favorite scenes from this episode.

Spoiler:

I just love you.

Spoiler:

Seriously, bear my children.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Lady Orihime

Still, that depends on how far apart they are.

Don't really see a point here. If she was close or far it doesn't matter a silencer is prudent.

I don't think Elen looks like she's staring blankly into the sky. It just looks like she has a fixed stare, which is usually what happened when you are day dreaming, looking at the sky. As in almost all anime's, when a character dies, their iris's fade, and the little white reflection to light in the pupil disappears. Elen's eyes look the same as they always did when she wasn't in "killer mode".

Compare Cal's eyes to after she was shot, to before she was shot.

I don't notice any pupil fading in Cal nor have I seen beetrain ever do that before. For the phantom mode the pupils fade so I don't see why they try to confuse the two. I also disagree with almost all anime that happens often times you see the black line off death under there eyes or they just close they eyes without any pupil fading. It can vary from one of these to sometimes no indication at all other than people realizing the person is dead.

Which is exactly what we need

And we got it.

I agree the ending is very ambiguous(concerning her) but I'm fairly confident in her death. I'd say 75% give or take.

[Soraya21]

Now that the trans is out and between what Scythe and McGuire said, it further cements my thoughts that both Reiji and Elen are dead in the end.

The reason why I say this is due to the simple fact that Elen was lying down looking at the sky seemingly without a care in the world even after she saw Reiji collapse onto the ground. If Elen is still alive, there are only 2 scenarios I can see that can follow and fit this type of scene, both of which I find to be pretty illogical.

One is that Elen remains completely ignorant of the fact that Reiji was shot and is dead/is in serious critical condition if he can't even call out for help. Out of the two, this one makes a bit more sense and puts a sadder, more pitiful spin on things, but I don't believe this to be a likely case since I would think Elen is experienced enough to recognize the situation for what it is.

The second is that Elen does in fact know Reiji was shot and that she patched him up real quick/confirmed him to be dead off screen and went back to sky-gazing, and honestly, if you can't see something wrong with this then there really is no helping you. Not only is Elen's concern and care for Reiji's safety/life at an all-time minimum and is completely OOC, but she would be ignoring the danger of the assassin still within the vicinity and be uncaring of the knowledge that Inferno now knows of their whereabouts.

Also, I don't see the purpose of keeping Elen alive in the end since it would only take away from the impact the studio was trying to make along with Reiji's death as well as the overall message of the series.

Even if she is alive, what exactly is Elen going to do from now on? Her biggest reason for living is now gone and assassins from Inferno will continue to hound her to her grave. And if it's between continuing to live a lone life on the body sack of others as the assassin Ein or choosing to end a short-lived meaningful life as Elen, I'm pretty sure she would choose the latter.

[JackRydden224]

WTfuuuuuuu

Gosh, was totally unnecessary at the end

The next thing we know is that Lelouch was the one on the cart >__>

[g1alpha]

Maybe Elen thought Reiji was sky gazing so she decided to join him O_O

[Oppai]

Originally Posted by g1alpha

Here's a theory: Reiji gets shit and killed by the cart driver and falls down. Then Elen smiles while turning towards Reiji to look at him when she sees him dead and falls down on her back in disbelief.
Now state your objections

My take. She sees Reiji fall down on his back, with a smile still on his face. She thinks he is looking at the sky. She lays down to do the same.

Edit:
wow, g1alpha beat me to it.

[ThinkTank]

I feel truly conflicted with this ending.

It definitely fits within the storyline, but it just feels wrong. Its one of those bitter truths that the mind can accept, but the heart rejects.

I think maybe the ending was too abrupt, and the scene just did not get the right feeling across to most viewers.

[Lady Orihime]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

Don't really see a point here. If she was close or far it doesn't matter a silencer is prudent.

If she was close to Reiji, the driver wouldn't have needed the silencer, and could have taken her down right after Reiji. Why wait? It took 30 seconds for Reiji to fall over. It's just beyond ridiculous to assume that the cart driver was waiting for Elen to turn around, and even more ridiculous for Elen to see Reiji is down and she's all *smile* *giggle*, when in just the last episode, she was crying over the thought of losing him.

I don't notice any pupil fading in Cal nor have I seen beetrain ever do that before. For the phantom mode the pupils fade so I don't see why they try to confuse the two. I also disagree with almost all anime that happens often times you see the black line off death under there eyes or they just close they eyes without any pupil fading. It can vary from one of these to sometimes no indication at all other than people realizing the person is dead.

Spoiler for Cal's Eyes:

You can't see the difference between full of life and close to death?

Bee Train has done it before... at least with the two other animes I have seen, which were "Chaos;Head and "El Cazador de la Bruja".

And we got it.

I agree the ending is very ambiguous(concerning her) but I'm fairly confident in her death. I'd say 75% give or take.

I think it's 50/50, since everyone is mostly divided on this.