Claymore Chapter 98

[Stream]

Originally Posted by Ryus

First off I admit to being in the camp against the idea of Rosemary being an AO... though I have been rethinking my position on this due to this chapter.

My position has always been that Rosemary was AO level from the beginning. The explanation for it is simple enough: The organization only awards ranks to the worthy. For instance, when the number seven died in the north, the numbers beneath her did not all get suddenly promoted one rank. When Teresa defected, Priscilla was not slated to be a number 1, but a number 2. Therefore, when Rosemary became number 1, she possessed the strength of a number 1. Barring the possibility that Rosemary somehow became weaker over time, of which we have absolutely no evidence, she probably possessed the strength of a number 1 when she awakened. That would mean that Rosemary, as an awakened being, possessed the strength of an Abyssal One.

As for nobody noticing what happened in the Teresa-Rosemary fight, I agree that the story doesn't give an answer to that. The best theory we have to answer that is simply that Teresa herself was probably the eye of the organization, the bad sensors - if they sensed it - didn't know what they were sensing, and the other good sensors weren't in a good position to know what was going on either. To top it off, her handler did suspect it, but accepted Teresa's explanation and put the idea out of his mind since from his perspective not even Teresa should be able to defeat an Abyssal One by herself, especially not completely unharmed without even being slightly fatigued. It was so ridiculous that he'd rather accept the explanation that Teresa really did run into some yoma and decided to play around with them before killing them enough that she let her uniform get damaged.

[Slash_Emperor]

So I haven't been around for like... 2, 3 months? And people are still discussing Teresa vs Priscilla? Didn't we prove sufficiently enough last time that Teresa was stronger, period?

Other than that... though I can't see it happening, I really want Yagi to mindfuck us with this. For example, the giant statue has gained some consciousness from Luciela (while Rafaela's stuff was passed on to Clare), sensed Priscilla approaching, went "fuck, Seaking", and quickly made use of the controlled Beth to make Alicia Awaken as well and kill Priscilla off before she could get closer... and the tears were just Luciela thinking "dayum, I'm screwed now".

Too bad Alicia's and Beth's story ended with some emo crap. Too rushed IMHO - in the end they were just scapegoats for the plot to proceed with no chance to acquire some individual character value.

===

Since I can't really resist, I'll say this. Have you even considered in your debates just what state Alicia and Beth were in when they fought Priscilla? They had fought Riful and Dauff, Alicia had gone back and forth from Awakening several times, Beth had been invaded by the statue's rods... even if they both Awakened - or rather, especially since they both Awakened, losing that perfect control they had over their offensive while one was keeping the link - I doubt they were at more than 50% of their power by that point. If they were at their peak, perhaps we could've seen a more interesting fight between them and Priscilla.

===

EDIT: Also, a small misunderstanding I noticed in the last page. The term "Abyssal One" refers to only Riful, Isley and Luciela - noone else. If memory serves, it was applied to them because of the trend they shared to hide in remote areas and not bother each other after their Awakening. So while certainly you could argue for others to be "Abyssal One level", you can't argue for them being Abyssal Ones.

[Shiek927]

So I haven't been around for like... 2, 3 months? And people are still discussing Teresa vs Priscilla? Didn't we prove sufficiently enough last time that Teresa was stronger, period?

Who's "we"?

Why can't people get over the fact that the debate is an integral part of the story and that the discussion is never going to end?

We all have our own beliefs on the matter, end of story.

Too bad Alicia's and Beth's story ended with some emo crap. Too rushed IMHO - in the end they were just scapegoats for the plot to proceed with no chance to acquire some individual character value.

Do you have to talk so arrogantly? or it just that your personality?

They had individual character value; they didn't have the most likeable personalities, if you call them that, but they were both unique unlike 2 others at all in the story. They showed just how far the Organization had proceeded in the past 7 years, gave us incredible fights, and died beating back their conditioning and fighting alongside eachother.

Their death signals the end of the Old and beginning of the New trifecta as Ryus stated.

[Slash_Emperor]

Originally Posted by Shiek927

Who's "we"?

Me and some other people who supported this view.

Originally Posted by Shiek927

Why can't people get over the fact that the debate is an integral part of the story and that the discussion is never going to end?

Hardly. Teresa was blindsided and killed by Priscilla, and that's that. Even if Clare beats Priscilla now noone can say Teresa was stronger - Claymores do end up much stronger than the Yoma they take their flesh from, so there should be no direct correlation between Teresa's strength and Clare's potential to begin with.

Originally Posted by Shiek927

We all have our own beliefs on the matter, end of story.

We already acknowledged that ages ago. We just support our beliefs, so that arguments that are fundamentally wrong can be weeded out and destroyed, leaving something that is as close to the individual truth as humanly possible. Too late there.

Originally Posted by Shiek927

Do you have to talk so arrogantly? or it just that your personality?

Both, probably.

Originally Posted by Shiek927

They had individual character value; they didn't have the most likeable personalities, if you call them that, but they were both unique unlike 2 others at all in the story. They showed just how far the Organization had proceeded in the past 7 years, gave us incredible fights, and died beating back their conditioning and fighting alongside eachother.

Their death signals the end of the Old and beginning of the New trifecta as Ryus stated.

Um. Yeah. So basically... they served as means to progress the plot. I know they couldn't have their characters expanded, because of the obvious problem of lack of personality. But for a build-up that has gone on for so long, they could have been exploited much better to begin with, and if Yagi was going to go down the "loltheyhavefeelingssomehowandtheycrysosad" road anyway, he could've handled it in such a better and less rushed way that didn't last like 3 pages and then killed them off.

Alicia and Beth were supposed to be the "new". Yagi's just looking for excuses to seriously gimp the Organization. And in the end everyone's going to wonder why the fuck any of the plethora of people who want the Organization dead don't just waltz in there and kill everything off. The Organization has lost both the power to battle and the way to detect the Ghosts - they wouldn't even have to fight the warriors if they wanted to kill the agents. But yeah, yeah, they have bigger problems now, and by the time the giant statue gets anticlimactically one-shotted by Clare empowered by Rafaela's lolfeelings (seriously, does anyone even remember when Claymores used to be emotionless half-demons by nature?) the Organization will have turned Raki into some hugeass killing machine.

Awesome fights aside, Claymore is becoming too much like a soap opera.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Originally Posted by Slash_Emperor

Spoiler for A whole lot of "my opinion matters more then yours" bs:

Me and some other people who supported this view.


Hardly. Teresa was blindsided and killed by Priscilla, and that's that. Even if Clare beats Priscilla now noone can say Teresa was stronger - Claymores do end up much stronger than the Yoma they take their flesh from, so there should be no direct correlation between Teresa's strength and Clare's potential to begin with.


We already acknowledged that ages ago. We just support our beliefs, so that arguments that are fundamentally wrong can be weeded out and destroyed, leaving something that is as close to the individual truth as humanly possible. Too late there.

Awesome fights aside, Claymore is becoming too much like a soap opera.

As far as I am concerned, nothing has been conclusively proven by either side. Both sides will forever argue their point, and many people (yourself included) are convinced they have somehow "proven" that they are right via a bunch of evidence that still has more then sufficient room for doubt.

Which is why this argument won't end until Yagi comes out and directly tells us who was superior to the other at the end of the road.

[Charmeya]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Whoa there, calm down. Deaths in Claymore are usually sudden and brutal, it is no surprise

Okay Okay...
It was just that it really pissed off me as a Twin... >_>

I can't understand this "will-less" amorousness for Priscilla. She is NOT the Main-Character or is she now?
And even for a Main-Character, this Shit would be overpowered...


I bet the Creators have stop thinking. They wanted to make an EPIC Appaerance of Priscilla and totally screwed up because they didn't knew when to stop pushing her up...

Who the Hell is supposed to ever fight her? Raki maybe? Get he transformed into Yoma-Hulk by the Organisation and kicks her Candy-Ass?

Or is Claire getting a ULTRA-MEGA-GIGA-SUPERSAYAN LEVEL TEN TRANSFORMATION!!! of her Powers and kicks her Butt?


Right now she can slay the whole Island arround her without getting a Sweat, right?

[Alleluia_Cone]

I think the argument persists because those who find Priscilla to be stronger cannot quite comprehend how Teresa is supported in this argument when she was decapitated by the fighter she is supposed to be superior to. And that was before Priscilla really reached her potential.

I mean, the problem with the arguments on the other side, is that, first off, they are bias because they are put forth by people who clearly favor Teresa as a character more so than Priscilla (in most cases, they actually hate Priscilla). While this is a testament to how good of a villain she is, that is, because she inspires so much rage in people, it really does not serve the purpose of trying to bring clarity to this debate. The fact that Priscilla cheats to win also magnifies this problem (although, seen objectively, this is a big plus in determining who is stronger, i.e., she is willing to do anything to win).

I for one, much prefer Teresa, but at the same time, I think that at best, it might take the present incarnation of Priscilla 30 seconds to decapitate her (which, by the way, she already did before--see how perverse it is to argue in the contrary?).

Another huge problem, and this is the one that rankles me, is that most arguments favoring Teresa while outright silly to begin with, are made even more so because they are not based on any sort of tangible data or information from the story.

What we get is often rampant speculation, conjecture, and interpretation of vague statements.

When people argue that Priscilla is stronger, they usually point to objective data, you know, like:

- Isley bowed down to her after being demolished by her, when, she was clearly not taking him seriously.
- How Riful wets herself when in her presence.
- How she defeated Beth and Alicia in roughly 4 seconds, when, once again, she was clearly not taking them seriously.
- And oh, yeah, she decapitated Teresa.

One last note, when did cunning not factor into these discussions? Or, for that matter, showing weakness?

[Slash_Emperor]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

As far as I am concerned, nothing has been conclusively proven by either side. Both sides will forever argue their point, and many people (yourself included) are convinced they have somehow "proven" that they are right via a bunch of evidence that still has more then sufficient room for doubt.

Which is why this argument won't end until Yagi comes out and directly tells us who was superior to the other at the end of the road.

So basically...

...just about what I said.

Try to grasp this concept, please, if it's not too complicated for you, yeah? The fact that a theory cannot be conclusively proven as fact does not mean that every argument supporting or deflecting that theory is correct. Light-hearted jokes aside (which if you cannot recognize then you pretty much lack a sense of humor), I never was, am not, and will never fight against the belief that Priscilla could be stronger than Teresa. But I will demolish every false argument that supports that belief. There is factual basis to work with, ambiguous, but certainly there, that can be used for both arguments - there is no need to make up random crap to declare a conclusion, and everyone pretending said crap is correct just because the end result cannot be disproven. It is a flawed line of thinking, and a laughable way of arguing.

[Shiek927]

Me and some other people who supported this view.

Roflmao, wow, how funny. Me and some other people opposed it

.......XDXDXD, I almost want to give you rep just for saying that

Hardly. Teresa was blindsided and killed by Priscilla, and that's that. Even if Clare beats Priscilla now noone can say Teresa was stronger - Claymores do end up much stronger than the Yoma they take their flesh from, so there should be no direct correlation between Teresa's strength and Clare's potential to begin with.

You're missing the point - it's not about being blind-sided, it's about how far Priscilla's potential was, and how strong Teresa was to begin with.

0_o, Claymores do not end up stronger then the Yoma they took their flesh from, not generally. Obviously, this is do to taking only half, or a quarter, or whatever amount.

You can argue potential if you want, concerning the person, but the general result is the opposite.

We already acknowledged that ages ago. We just support our beliefs, so that arguments that are fundamentally wrong can be weeded out and destroyed, leaving something that is as close to the individual truth as humanly possible. Too late there.

Roflmao, for someone who hasn't been here in 2-3 months, you sure are haughty...and ignorant, considering the arguement has been going on(as usual) in that time-span.

....You're really something are you? You haven't been around for awhile, pop up, and act like you've been here the whole time and run the show or something .

Both, probably.

Roflmao, yes, I can see that. Quite an impression you're setting yourself up with.

Um. Yeah. So basically... they served as means to progress the plot. I know they couldn't have their characters expanded, because of the obvious problem of lack of personality. But for a build-up that has gone on for so long, they could have been exploited much better to begin with, and if Yagi was going to go down the "loltheyhavefeelingssomehowandtheycrysosad" road anyway, he could've handled it in such a better and less rushed way that didn't last like 3 pages and then killed them off.

Alicia and Beth were supposed to be the "new". Yagi's just looking for excuses to seriously gimp the Organization. And in the end everyone's going to wonder why the fuck any of the plethora of people who want the Organization dead don't just waltz in there and kill everything off. The Organization has lost both the power to battle and the way to detect the Ghosts - they wouldn't even have to fight the warriors if they wanted to kill the agents. But yeah, yeah, they have bigger problems now, and by the time the giant statue gets anticlimactically one-shotted by Clare empowered by Rafaela's lolfeelings (seriously, does anyone even remember when Claymores used to be emotionless half-demons by nature?) the Organization will have turned Raki into some hugeass killing machine.

1) It's always been a soap opera. When has the story been action > emotion?

2) What did you want to see from them? You whine and nag about development, but also admit they couldn't have been individually developed too much, make up your mind.

They both did want they were intended to do from the beginning, and were hit by something unexpected, and died beating their programming.

4) What do you mean, "gimp" the Organization? They could easily take back control, which they are in the pre-planning of already. More then that, they are the main antagonists and Alicia and Beth were going to be AWOL in one way or another, as they are their ultimate representation of control. They weren't gonna be "redeemed" or anything, if that was your idea.

3) Roflmao, reading the rest of your post........did you come here just to rant or something?

I'd argue, but theirs no point; you're acting like we all have to bend over everything say, and being an all-around troll and then throwing in "Awesome fights" in the end like it makes up for it .

Bottom-line, no one is forcing you to be here and no one is forcing you to even read it.

So basically...

...just about what I said.

Um, no, what you said was:

"Didn't we prove sufficiently enough last time that Teresa was stronger, period?"

.....yeah, it's a little different.

[irvinethearcher]

Originally Posted by Charmeya

Okay Okay...
It was just that it really pissed off me as a Twin... >_>

I can't understand this "will-less" amorousness for Priscilla. She is NOT the Main-Character or is she now?
And even for a Main-Character, this Shit would be overpowered...


I bet the Creators have stop thinking. They wanted to make an EPIC Appaerance of Priscilla and totally screwed up because they didn't knew when to stop pushing her up...

Who the Hell is supposed to ever fight her? Raki maybe? Get he transformed into Yoma-Hulk by the Organisation and kicks her Candy-Ass?

Or is Claire getting a ULTRA-MEGA-GIGA-SUPERSAYAN LEVEL TEN TRANSFORMATION!!! of her Powers and kicks her Butt?


Right now she can slay the whole Island arround her without getting a Sweat, right?

I don't think that yagi intended to make an epic appearance for her. He IMO wanted simply to show that a being like priscilla can squash even AO - Level ABs like fly's and if we consider all the hints he gave in the story so far everything different from that would be a logical inconsistency. I can think of two main possibilities for priscilla's future:
1. Clare has to awaken theresa's power inside of her to face "the moment".
2. Priscilla will become useful and will do something good with her massive power despite having evil attentions based on her craving for guts. I call this the gollum perspective.

I like both, perhaps the second a bit more because it would be something more claymore like, more ironic an tragically.

Originally Posted by Slash_Emperor

Try to grasp this concept, please, if it's not too complicated for you, yeah?

Keep cool Slash, there is no reason here to offend Fenrir, okay?

[HegemonKhan]

CLARE IS POWERFUL HERSELF, she doesn't need "Teresa" or "Teresa's" powers.....

CLARE IS AWESOME BECAUSE SHE IS AWESOME, having Teresa inside her is a "minor" thing that distracts people from seeing CLARE's MAGINFICIENCE AS HER OWN DOING!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and actually for what it is worth,

the only implanted flesh, that caused a difference in power from any other flesh, is AB flesh into humans making the Abyss Feeders.

there's no stronger normal yoma flesh put into one human making a stronger Claymore and there's no weaker normal yoma flesh put into another human making a weaker Claymore.

the flesh simply causes the change. but there's no disparage in the change from which ever flesh is used.


based on this, the flesh that Clare took in is Teresa's, but this has absolutely no difference from normal yoma flesh in terms of power. the only difference is that Clare is 75% human and 25% yoma, instead of 50% human and 50% yoma, not because she took in Teresa's flesh, but because Teresa's flesh is that of a Claymore and not a normal yoma.


POWER comes from the individual themselves, not the flesh implanted into them.

obvbiously as humans, there's no "superhumans" (well, maybe a few small-minor above-normal abilities, like Miata having better 5 senses then most humans), yet when humans become Claymores, their power differs greatly.

but we established that the flesh doesn't alter their power. As another reason for this, Abyss Feeders would be more powerful then everyone then. As even Abyssal Ones, took in normal yoma flesh, whereas Abyss Feeders took in AB flesh.

and the humans aren't different in power.


so.... where does the Claymores' disparage in power come from?

well... the only thing that I can think of that is left is.....

1. brain-mind's mental powers
2. the brain-mind's determination-"resolve"-"stubbornness"

the manga often refers to the "heart", and the "heart" is so often wrongly used for the brain-mind.

"feelings come from the heart".... UM NO, they do NOT!

you're heart does 2 things and 2 things only: EXPAND and CONTRACT ("pumping"), it does not "think", it does not "feel emotions".

so, when the manga says "She had a weak heart", it means:

She had a weak mind (or lack of mental focus or determination--"resolve")

So the power difference comes from the brain-mind's power and the power of its determination-"resolve".

[Slash_Emperor]

Originally Posted by Shiek927

Roflmao, wow, how funny. Me and some other people opposed it

.......XDXDXD, I almost want to give you rep just for saying that

Yes, I vaguely recall some people trying to put up an argument. Only one posed a substantial debate, and he's about the only person I came to respect while being here.

Originally Posted by Shiek927

You're missing the point - it's not about being blind-sided, it's about how far Priscilla's potential was, and how strong Teresa was to begin with.

Teresa (10% Yoki release) > Priscilla (80% Yoki release)

Therefore, it is a pure fact that:

Teresa (> 10% Yoki release) > Awakened Priscilla = Priscilla (100% Yoki release)

So basically... at that point in time, Teresa > Priscilla. Fact. Priscilla Awakened. Rubel said Awakening caused her to tap into her latent potential. Assuming that's even true... it was never even stated Priscilla's latent potential was higher than Teresa's. It was all ifs and maybes, and though Teresa herself was thinking about it, she eventually changed her mind. So yeah... there's nothing here.

That line is much more logically valid, btw, if we just take it as it is meant to be read: Awakened Priscilla = base Priscilla (full potential released).

Originally Posted by Shiek927

0_o, Claymores do not end up stronger then the Yoma they took their flesh from, not generally. Obviously, this is do to taking only half, or a quarter, or whatever amount.

You can argue potential if you want, concerning the person, but the general result is the opposite.

Even the weakest Claymores can defeat relatively strong Yoma one-on-one. The Claymores take their powers from said Yoma. So by combining two weak parts, you get something that is much higher than the sum of the two. I don't see how this can be argued, at all. Unless you mean to say that regular Yoma have the same latent potential as the Claymores who take their powers from them?

Originally Posted by Shiek927

Roflmao, for someone who hasn't been here in 2-3 months, you sure are haughty...and ignorant, considering the arguement has been going on(as usual) in that time-span.

The argument is mostly a repetitive back-and-forth exchange of bullshit. The important points have already been addressed by me in the past. There's pretty much nothing else to be said. You are just beating a dead horse.

Originally Posted by Shiek927

....You're really something are you? You haven't been around for awhile, pop up, and act like you've been here the whole time and run the show or something .

Hardly. I couldn't care less about how long one has been around, and I couldn't care less about people who believe that is important. A stupid person will remain stupid even if he spends months writing about his stupidity.

Originally Posted by Shiek927

Roflmao, yes, I can see that. Quite an impression you're setting yourself up with.

As I said, what others think of me couldn't concern me less, especially when those others are hardly worthy of my attention.

Originally Posted by Shiek927

1) It's always been a soap opera. When has the story been action > emotion?

It used to be a dark seinen story with a very interesting concept, great artwork and awesome characters. Now the awesome characters have been killed off, the concept has been pushed to the background in favor of hurr main-character-driven-plot, and from a dark fantasy with psychological thriller elements it has turned into a mainstream Shounen. Only the artwork is really as good as it used to be, or even better. If you think Claymore was always like that, then you simply can't appreciate a good story for what it is.

Originally Posted by Shiek927

2) What did you want to see from them? You whine and nag about development, but also admit they couldn't have been individually developed too much, make up your mind.

Something more than a rushed, virtually left unexplained half-assed battle and expression of emotion for a few panels before their deaths.

Originally Posted by Shiek927

4) What do you mean, "gimp" the Organization? They could easily take back control, which they are in the pre-planning of already. More then that, they are the main antagonists and Alicia and Beth were going to be AWOL in one way or another, as they are their ultimate representation of control. They weren't gonna be "redeemed" or anything, if that was your idea.

Redeemed? Lolno. Fancy endings are the worst, much worse than the emo ending we had now. I just wanted them to have been expanded upon more as characters, their potential for an interesting story taken advantage of instead of just having them killed to promote the hurr main character vs main antagonist conflict.

Originally Posted by Shiek927

3) Roflmao, reading the rest of your post........did you come here just to rant or something?

Truth be told, I came back for a completely different reason, and just stumbled across the Claymore forums and decided to post.

Originally Posted by Shiek927

I'd argue, but theirs no point; you're acting like we all have to bend over everything say, and being an all-around troll and then throwing in "Awesome fights" in the end like it makes up for it .

Bottom-line, no one is forcing you to be here and no one is forcing you to even read it.

Bottom-line, as you said, I don't care what you think I'm acting like, and I certainly don't care if you go along with what I say or not. Unlike what you may think, I'm not here to argue about insignificant issues. And lol @ me having to "make up" for anything to begin with. What I said was simply the truth.

Originally Posted by Shiek927

Um, no, what you said was:

"Didn't we prove sufficiently enough last time that Teresa was stronger, period?"

.....yeah, it's a little different.

If you can't even catch the sarcasm when it's that obvious, I'd shudder to think what would happen in an elongated debate between us. Just actually try to read the rest of my later posts, and hopefully you'll get the idea.

=====

EDIT: Lol @ people being "offended" by anything I've said in this thread. I haven't said anything nearly offensive, and do not intend to.

[SagaraSouske]

So I guess the Alicia and Beth being controlled by parasite theory is completely wrong. Too bad that Alicia and Beth saw very little development before they were written off.

Slash, your position is pretty interesting. On the one hand, you side with Teresa being stronger then Priscilla. On the other hand, you disagree with pretty much everyone in the Teresa camp about Teresa's actual power. Although I do agree that Alicia are not at her peak but I don't think she is at 50% either. She just awakened out of her own volition as suppose soul link controlled awakening. While she did expend some energy at previous fights, it is hardly 50%. I would at least put her at 80% of her peak if not more. So if Beth is not controlled by parasite and is awakened by herself, she would then likely be in AO lvl. Even after sustaining injury from Priscilla, she isn't likely to lose much of her power since no youki expenditure is spent in regeneration. Let's say she is also at 80% of her peak after sustaining those injuries. So Priscilla basically effortlessly defeated one AO class at full power and then proceed to own two AO class at 80%, which put her at odds with your position where Teresa > Priscilla and yet Teresa is not ridiculously powerful.

Thus far, no one has answer the question: why does Teresa need to be stronger then Priscilla?

Also, AB in human form hiding full power does not equate to claymore not using her full youki.

[Stream]

I am personally of the opinion that Teresa was stronger than Priscilla during the fight. I am also of the opinion that since this discussion now has a dedicated thread, perhaps it would be better served there.

PS: Did I just spot a lot of the old regulars on? I may as well revive my old "Clare is actually a defensive type" theory now. (For the interested, the discussion started here.)

[Slash_Emperor]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

So I guess the Alicia and Beth being controlled by parasite theory is completely wrong. Too bad that Alicia and Beth saw very little development before they were written off.

As I mentioned before, there might still be hope =/ though that would probably be some serious trolling on Yagi's part.

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

Slash, your position is pretty interesting. On the one hand, you side with Teresa being stronger then Priscilla. On the other hand, you disagree with pretty much everyone in the Teresa camp about Teresa's actual power.

I'm not exactly sure what to make of it. I certainly have my views on Priscilla's and Teresa's power placements, which I will admit are nowhere near perfect. Personally, I think there is a difference in Yoki, but that was covered by Priscilla's Awakening. Now Teresa, at least while staying low on the Yoki release, would be inferior to current Priscilla, probably, but that doesn't mean she couldn't win. She has the edge in pretty much everything else, though Priscilla's regeneration might catch her off-guard. Currently it is up for grabs, but if they fought evenly, if, for example, Teresa Awakened...

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

Although I do agree that Alicia are not at her peak but I don't think she is at 50% either. She just awakened out of her own volition as suppose soul link controlled awakening. While she did expend some energy at previous fights, it is hardly 50%. I would at least put her at 80% of her peak if not more. So if Beth is not controlled by parasite and is awakened by herself, she would then likely be in AO lvl. Even after sustaining injury from Priscilla, she isn't likely to lose much of her power since no youki expenditure is spent in regeneration. Let's say she is also at 80% of her peak after sustaining those injuries. So Priscilla basically effortlessly defeated one AO class at full power and then proceed to own two AO class at 80%, which put her at odds with your position where Teresa > Priscilla and yet Teresa is not ridiculously powerful.

I think they lost a large amount of their combat potential (not their Yoki, their combat potential) when they both Awakened. Beth could guide Alicia as a weapon, when both Awakened they were fighting blindly. I believe this is why Priscilla was able to mop the floor with them so easily. Against someone stronger than them, they'd have stood better chances IMHO if they deployed their usual technique rather than both going all-out. Then again, they didn't have much of a choice there. But I still think it'd have been a much more even fight.

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

Thus far, no one has answer the question: why does Teresa need to be stronger then Priscilla?

She doesn't need to be. She might or might not be, but that's really just theorycrafting. The question lost its meaning when Teresa died, and is now only important for speculation and powerscaling.

[HegemonKhan]

to put it simply:

15% yoki released Teresa is more powerful then 100% yoki released Awakened Priscilla

15% yoki released Teresa would KILL Awakened Priscilla in chapter 98.

100% yoki released Awakened Teresa would KILL Awakened Priscilla in chapter 98 just from exhaling (breathing)..... (exaggeration..... maybe)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
15% comes from:

10% teresa overpowers 70% (actually it is somewhere between 70% and 80%) Priscilla

(at 80% or over 80%, Priscilla is able to overpower 10% Teresa, as can be seen with Teresa grimacing with effort, just barely able to parry Priscilla's attack before her muscles bulk out ripping her clothes and she drops her sword and starts to beg to be executed....by Teresa)

70/10 = 7

Teresa is AT LEAST x7 more powerful then Priscilla

100/7= 14.3

at 14.3% yoki released Teresa = 100% yoki released Awakend Priscilla

therefore:

15% yoki released is all Teresa needs to kill Awakened Priscilla in chapter 98 (whom kills 2 Abyssal Ones, Alicia and Beth, with ease).

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by Stream

I am personally of the opinion that Teresa was stronger than Priscilla during the fight. I am also of the opinion that since this discussion now has a dedicated thread, perhaps it would be better served there.

PS: Did I just spot a lot of the old regulars on? I may as well revive my old "Clare is actually a defensive type" theory now. (For the interested, the discussion started here.)

Better-served? Forget better-served, they are probably gonna be asked to move it as soon as a Moderator takes a peek at what's going on.

--



Have fun Sagara, that's all I have to say.

[Alleluia_Cone]

I have to say, at least the distinction I make in my argument is a whole lot more logical. It has nothing to do with power levels, or theorized potential power levels, or even, at what percentage of power any of the participants where at any given time in the story.

Basically, Priscilla already beat Teresa. She decapitated her. She was just another vanquished opponent.

Also, it wasn't like Teresa was handicapped in that fight. She had her chance to kill Priscilla, and she couldn't do it. Had the tables been reversed, Priscilla must certainly would have killed her. So no matter how you look at it, Priscilla would always win.

To argue that Teresa would beat Priscilla is patently silly, because, for the argument to be comprehensible, you would have to argue that this occurred in an alternate universe where Teresa actually possessed the blood lust to do so, since, quite clearly, within the manga, she did not.

Lastly, even if one were to take the arguments being put forth seriously, that Teresa is indeed more powerful than the current incarnation of Priscilla, think of the implications that would have to be made.

Right now, the writer has clearly established that Priscilla is much more powerful than Alicia and Beth put together, even when released. So even being conservative, and saying that she is only three times more powerful than either individually, you'd being saying one Priscilla equals three Alicia/Beths.

As we saw in the fight Riful, one Alicia/Beth is clearly much superior to her, and Riful is roughly the equal of either Isley or Luciela. Thus, it could reasonably be concluded that Priscilla is stronger than the Abyssal ones all put together.

So if Teresa is stronger that, you'd be concluding that at the beginning of the story, you have three Abyssal on the loose, and the organization's best fighter is much, much more powerful than the three put together.

She is perfectly fine being ordered by the organization to dispose of minor nuisances, but it never occurs to either the organization or Teresa in an individual capacity to eliminate either of the Abyssal ones? When, apparently, as is being argued in this forum, she can eliminate all three of them easily?

I mean, really, do you people really think this is the assumption that the writer himself wanted to place into the minds of his readers?

[Charmeya]

Originally Posted by HegemonKhan

CLARE IS POWERFUL HERSELF, she doesn't need "Teresa" or "Teresa's" powers...

Umm...



Whatever others say, it's true to say that Claire had never any other Powers as her own "to begin with"...

... right?

Teresa's Powers? Only because they make something "most likely ugly" with Teresa's Head/Skull and put her Flesh into Claire,

Claire never got any of Teresa's Powers to begin with - aside from "Yoki-Feeling" maybe.

If Claire would have gotten Teresa's Powers, she would have been "badass-strong" right from the start.
But this didn't happen. Claire was even weaker than most til' all Claymores when she entered the World of the Half-Yoma-Warriors.


This alone is proof that Claire's Powers are only her own and not Teresas.

[SagaraSouske]

Here is a position I agree with: Teresa is stronger then Priscilla during their fight. And even if Priscilla fully realize her potential as a claymore, Teresa may still be stronger. Because she also will improve during that time.

Here is what I disagree with: Teresa as a claymore is stronger then AB Priscilla.
First, I don't think awakening is getting that extra 20% youki level.
Second, if the Org spend all times time to make controllable ABs around AO level, and they unknowingly created a claymore that is stronger then AO, it would be very hard to swallow that they have estimated their experiments that badly. No I don't think Priscilla as a claymore will defeat AO class ABs.
Third, the question of why Teresa needs to be stronger then Priscilla does have a meaning because after all Clare is Teresa's Legacy. Clare's personal development will lose a lot of meaning if she win her confrontation against Priscilla mostly due to inheriting Teresa's abilities. It should a combination of her own power/development/experiences combined with the abilities passed down through Teresa's flesh to allow her to triumph.