Learning Japanese

[Ottocycle]

Originally Posted by Tenken's Smile

I have a question:
--> 日本語できたんですか まあったりまえでそけどね. I don't understand this phrase: "まあったりまえでそけどね"

Sounds like there was a typo with そ intended to be す.

[Shinigami-Momo]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I want to learn Japanese but I don't know whether I should start with the Speaking/listening or reading/writing? I found this book (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Genki-1-Text...2811052&sr=8-1) but it is useful for beginners who know nothing?

[Mystique]

Originally Posted by Shinigami-Momo

Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I want to learn Japanese but I don't know whether I should start with the Speaking/listening or reading/writing? I found this book (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Genki-1-Text...2811052&sr=8-1) but it is useful for beginners who know nothing?

It's a learning thread, it's meant to be used whenever and however
And 45 quid, it looks like a rip off.
I wish I could bookmark my posts in this thread, since your question is one I've answered time and time again with links, etc (and so have others)
You'd do well to read/skim the last 20 pages or so of this thread, just to look for similar questions to your own for advice.
However to mention them again.

Learning all four is fine.
For reading and writing, learning the alphabets in hiragana, katakana then kanji. Hiragana has about 50 characters, so try to learn/memorise about 10-15 a week?
There are plenty of 'learn how to write' japanese websites where you can print off tracing sheets which have stroke orders.
At the same time, wherever you're learning your basic phrases, try writing new words in hiragana that you've learnt (use romaji for those you don't know) so in time, you can read/write in hiragana asap while learning more new sentences and grammar.

As for speaking, well skype is there.
Copying videos and sounds files will help with sounds too.
(There are websites with free mp3s to download the basic sounds of the japanese language)
Do search for those.

But my advice is to self study first for about a month, see how much progress you make, how disciplined you can be before investing in a textbook.
By then, you'll already be in a learning mindset, so are more likely to work through a textbook and finish it

[Shinigami-Momo]

Thanks for the advice. I'll post here again if i have any problems or when I have made any real progress.

[Raiga]

Could somebody help me with this one construction I'm having trouble figuring out? It's a て-form + は thing.

I know that usually ~ては on a verb turns the verb into a noun, like in こうしてはダメです but I've seen it pop up in a string with other verbs and I can't figure out how to parse it as a noun, or if there's another way to interpret it.

Uh, the only examples I can think of are from song lyrics... like I remember the 4th FMA:B OP had the one line, 掴みかけてはまた離れて行った or something like that. Also popped up a few times in "Butterfly" (Vocaloid song, TokuP):

舞い落ちる君の翅
抱きしめては眠った

and

汚れては　心迷う君と
はしゃいで　からまっていたい

(I've tried to include all necessary context but if it's not enough say so).

[Doraneko]

Originally Posted by Raiga

Could somebody help me with this one construction I'm having trouble figuring out? It's a て-form + は thing.

I know that usually ~ては on a verb turns the verb into a noun, like in こうしてはダメです but I've seen it pop up in a string with other verbs and I can't figure out how to parse it as a noun, or if there's another way to interpret it.

Uh, the only examples I can think of are from song lyrics... like I remember the 4th FMA:B OP had the one line, 掴みかけてはまた離れて行った or something like that. Also popped up a few times in "Butterfly" (Vocaloid song, TokuP)

I am not too sure if ては functions to turn a verb into a noun... Isn't the construction that is supposed to do that be の, as in のは and のが? Of course there is also a less common way by cutting the ます suffix from ます verbs, like 走り, but that is not universally applicable and the resulting noun may end up with a different meaning in some cases.

Anyway the general use of ては is quite close to たら, except that the latter is broader in usage. ては usually is succeeded by undesirable things, as in こうしてはダメ. There is no such requirement for たら.

Another use is to show regularly/habitually repeated actions. Your example of 掴みかけてはまた離れて行った falls into this.

Here is a good discussion on the specific usage and limitations of the construction.

Spoiler for 日本語表現文型辞典：188 ～ては～／～ては～ては～:

188 ～ては～／～ては～ては～

動詞・形容詞：て形＜ナ形ーで＞　 ＋　　は
　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　 は　～　ては
（注：口語では「～ては→ ちゃ／～では→じゃ」となることが多い）

♪　会話　♪
山田：中国語講座を録音しては聞いているうちに、簡単な会話なら聞き取れるようになったよ。
李　：それは素晴らしいね。ところで異国関係もいいけど、異性関係の方のその後の進展はどう？
山田：彼女のこと？誘っては断られ、誘っては断られさ。こんなに冷たくされては、もうあきらめるしかないよ 。

♯　解説　♭
　「～ては」（「～ては」「～では」→口語形「～ちゃ」「～じゃ」）は、例文１～３のように「～たら」（仮 定・既定）の意味を表すことがあります。この「～ては」は「～たら、当然の結果～」という意味を含んでいて 、後件で望ましくない事態を招く時しか使えない特徴を持っています。
　　雨が降ったら（・降っては）、中止するしかないね。＜悪い事態＞
　　雨が降ったら（×晴れては）、水不足が解消する。　＜いい事態＞
　もうひとつは、例文４、５のように動詞について動作の反復を表します。例えば、「酔って喧嘩をする」は一 回の行為ですが、「酔っては喧嘩をする」は習慣的に反復されている行為になります。この場合、「～ては～て は～／～ちゃ～ちゃ～／～じゃ～じゃ）～」の形で、反復を強調する表現もよく使われます。

§　例文　§
１．「壁に耳あり障子に目あり」。この話は人に知られてはま　　ずい。声を抑えて。
２．見ちゃ駄目、今、着替えているところだから。
３．そこまで馬鹿にされては、黙って引き下がるわけにはいかない。
４．達磨のように転んでは立ち上がり、雑草のように踏まれ　　ては強くなる、そんな人間になり なさい。
５．飲んじゃくだまく、くだまいちゃまわりの客と喧嘩をす　　る。なんと酒癖の悪い奴だ。

Source: 日本語駆け込み寺
http://www.nihongo2.com/

[Raiga]

Ahh... I see. It'll probably take a bit more practice but I think I basically get it now. The discussion with the dialogue example was quite helpful. Thanks! ^^

[Isegrim]

A question regarding the potential form.

Verb in 連用形　+ 得る means I'm able to do something.
Verb in 連用形　+ 得ざる means I'm not able to do something.
Correct?

Does this form have the same meaning as ...ことができる ?

[nikorai]

Isegrim

Does this form have the same meaning as ...ことができる ?

No.

Maybe you mean an expression like
せざるを得ない ?
If so then it means "I can't help but" "There's nothing I can do but" (implied "I'm forced to")

例えば、
私は日本語が苦手なので、ラノベ を読むときに辞典を使わざるを得ません。

[Doraneko]

Originally Posted by Isegrim

A question regarding the potential form.

Verb in 連用形　+ 得る means I'm able to do something.
Verb in 連用形　+ 得ざる means I'm not able to do something.
Correct?

Does this form have the same meaning as ...ことができる ?

Technically you are not wrong, but the common negative form of 得る is 得ない. You can almost hear words like 出来得る, あり得ない on a daily basis. On the other hand ざる is pretty rare since it is a traditional form (連体形 of ざり). Fixed constructions like せざるを得ない, which Nikorai has pointed out, is may be more common. But they still sound extremely rigid.

As for 得ざる... Writing is maybe okay if you use it sparingly for one or two keywords (say in the title of your essay). But speaking it would make you sound like a time traveller from the Heian Era.


Also, there are some fine differences between the normal 可能動詞・ことができる and 得る・得ない despite of the similarities.

For example:

1．話せる（話すことが出来る）
- Has the capability of talking about the subject matter / speaking the language
eg. 英語が自由に話せるようになった

２．話し得る（話すことが出来得る）
- Has a possibility/opportunity to talk about the subject matter base on the circumstances
eg. 地元と話し得る条件の整うまでは建設を強行すべきではない


Hope it helps .

[Isegrim]

Thanks, that's what I have meen looking for. None of my books mentioned this construction, now I know the reason for that

[TheForsaken]

I have a question.
Does anyone know what is the meaning of テラネ申 ?

[Honeysuckle]

"miracle!" or "very generous!"
Internet slang

テラ → tera 1 000 000 000 000
ネ申 → 神 → 神技（かみわざ）
　　　　　　　 → 生き神（いきがみ）・生き仏（いきぼとけ）

ごめんなさい、英語でうまく説明してさしあげられたらよいのですが。

[Sparvid]

I've recently learned hiragana, and wonder if there are some good practicing sites out there. I know of several which deals with "learn each individual character here", but what I'd like to find is a place which list words or complete sentences in hiragana, and a way to fairly quickly be able to check whether i'm right or wrong.

Like the bottom of this page, except with a lot more words.

[Raiga]

見えなくたって I'm unfamiliar with this verb/adjective form, could anybody explain it to me? My only guess is that it's a contraction of something else... IME seems to recognize it as one unit though...

[Doraneko]

Originally Posted by Raiga

見えなくたって I'm unfamiliar with this verb/adjective form, could anybody explain it to me? My only guess is that it's a contraction of something else... IME seems to recognize it as one unit though...

Context is important. For 95%+ chance it means "見えなくても" （でも ～ だって）. On the other hand it may also possibly be an expression from certain dialects.

But without a full sentence example it is difficult to tell.

[Raiga]

Originally Posted by Doraneko

Context is important. For 95%+ chance it means "見えなくても" （でも ～ だって）. On the other hand it may also possibly be an expression from certain dialects.

But without a full sentence example it is difficult to tell.

It's from a song. The full verse:

ただまっすぐにと
射抜く視線
透明に絡まる
見えなくたって
惹かれあうから
手を伸ばすだけ

The most likely explanation you gave seems to make sense though. Thanks!

[Terrestrial Dream]

Started learning Japanese, first thing that comes to my mind is that it is very difficult language and I only started learning Hiragana. But thank god the grammar structure is so similar to Korean and lot of the words are interchangeable, for example の has an equal counterpart with 의. The only problem I have right now is I have to memorize all the Hiragana in the first week and than Katakana next week which is difficult and rather confusing at first, but doable.

Also regarding Kanji how many of them would I need to know in order for me to read Japanese in game like Super Robot War? I heard most high school students know at least 8,000 on average but I doubt I could learn that much at this point in my life.

[Seitsuki]

8000.. lol. disregard that as blatantly inflated.
there are ~2000 kanji that are considered necessary for day to day life and activities such as reading the paper etc. For specialised uses such as a medical textbook or jargon-heavy media I'd still say you wouldn't need over about 3000. a VN then, I would put in the 2000 bracket.
but 8000? no. just no.

[Terrestrial Dream]

Originally Posted by Seitsuki

8000.. lol. disregard that as blatantly inflated.
there are ~2000 kanji that are considered necessary for day to day life and activities such as reading the paper etc. For specialised uses such as a medical textbook or jargon-heavy media I'd still say you wouldn't need over about 3000. a VN then, I would put in the 2000 bracket.
but 8000? no. just no.

2000 seems doable. Also any tip on how to study Kanji?