[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

No, Hideyoshi stayed where he was. And Erika had already left the room when the everyone else text came up.

Oh well it doesn't really matter either way.

Basically how it works is this. Kanon was shown racing to to the guesthouse so I beleive he somehow escaped the cousin's room. It's works the same way as Eva locking the door to help Krauss and Natsuhi escape in episode 3.

Erika's red sealing the rooms happened later at the time the logic error happened.

The seals on the window were also intact. Naturally, I am referring to the time of the logic error

For Erika to seal the cousins room in the guesthouse and include the windows she has to race to the guesthouse from the mansion and seal it. So It's possible for Kanon to escape the cousins room before she sealed that room,which is specified to be at the time of the logic error if somebody let him out of the room before that to conduct the second twilight. He doesn't have to escape while it is a closed room if someone intentionally let him out before that.

[Leafsnail]

Yep, but then we're stuck on how he no longer exists in the guestroom even though it's confirmed he didn't leave in red.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

Yep, but then we're stuck on how he no longer exists in the guestroom even though it's confirmed he didn't leave in red.

We've been at square one for that the whole time. Personality death and real death have been the only proposed solutions to that.

To be honest I want to beleive it's "method X" and that it doesn't have to be explained. Because then Kanon really escapes and Erika lives trapped in a Kakera where she has to figure out how both Battler and Kanon escaped from the closed room. This is the ultimate revenge for Beatrice and the ultimate irony for Erika.

[Leafsnail]

Even method X doesn't work... only Battler left, after all.

[Judoh]

Who says method X isn't disappearing his body with magic?

It's magic I don't have to explain shit!

[Exilon]

I just finished reading EP6 and many things are becoming clearer, however, the whole aura concerning Shanon and Kanon still bug me a little.
Anyway, I think it was a great great game. It surpassed most of my expectations. So far I've weaved several theories, but only by rereading the rest of the games *again* will I be able to prove them or not. In the meanwhile, I was hoping we'd be ale to share some thoughts. :P

One of the most important things I found in this game was the relationship between "baby" Beato and Battler. the whole meta-secenes relating to them all looked like a huge metaphor to Kinzo and Beatrice-2. In fact, everything coincides and snaps in beautifully. anyone else got this impression?

Also, when Elder Beatrice and beato were talking to each other and I was writing down the notes making seperate lists for each other, I suddenly wrote above The Elder "THE LEGEND" and above the other "THE PROMISE" which I then scratched and replaced by "THE HUMAN".

I've also been "slowly" developing my own interpretations of the game's rules, even if some of this game's events made it seem like the list is incomplete.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Who says method X isn't disappearing his body with magic?

It's magic I don't have to explain shit!

I believe Battler's exact words were:

Do what you want. I’ll listen respectfully to this ‘magic theory’ that you assert. However, I can assert my ‘human theory’, which is completely different from your claim, without any interference from your claim. So, in other words, there’s no need for me to listen to your bullshit.

Has anyone tried to come up with a theory where the person who wears Kinzo's ring is considered Kinzo? That might be tricky for episode 5 unless Battler took off the ring before 3am though:
Ushiromiya Battler returned to the cousins' room at 3:00 AM and fell asleep. After that, until the discovery of the crime, absolutely nothing out of the ordinary happened in the room!
In other words, it was impossible for Battler to commit murder or damage the corpses.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Who says method X isn't disappearing his body with magic?

It's magic I don't have to explain shit!

Actually, if we're talking crack theories...

Kanon filled the closet containing his own body with quick-drying cement. As a result, he no longer exists inside the room -- he exists inside the wall! Until he dies in a few minutes, that is.

[Sniesk]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Hmm, we have a Genius Battler theory for the meta-world, so how about a Moron Erika theory for the real world? I'm not really serious about this, but still:

Kyrie is pretty suspicious, so Erika checks and notices that she's alive. Thinking that Kyrie killed everyone else, Erika slits her throat to prevent any more murders and save the day. Then, she goes into Natsuhi's room, realizes that she's also alive, and 'discovers' that Natsuhi and Kyrie were in on this together. She then eliminates the second culprit. Eva is very suspicious by all means. By now, Erika's sensed that something's wrong, but if she admits that all of the deaths might have been faked, she has to accept that she's just murdered two innocent people, so she kills Eva too.

By the time she notices that Maria was only faking too, she freaks. She's now murdered three people who were totally innocent of any murders, meaning that her life as she knows it is basically over if anyone finds out. Furthermore, she's left evidence at the crime scenes with her fingerprints on it. The only way out is to clear away all evidence, but she doesn't have much time. If she's discovered to be missing for too long, she'll inevitably become the suspect. Fortunately, everyone else is going to hole up in the guesthouse, so she can keep an eye on them for the time being, but there's a chance that Maria and Rosa will see the other corpses and raise the alarm. So, to protect her own future, Erika kills both of them, then races off to Battler's room. There isn't enough time to kill Battler as well (cutting off a head is no mean feat), so she seals the room with the duct tape that she prepared earlier, sealing the windows from the inside because that's easier. The seals won't stop Battler from finding the other corpses, but if they are intact, it will prove that Battler doesn't know about the other murders. Erika moves over to the guesthouse with everyone else.

After that, she does the two room trick to let her escape from the guesthouse, seals those rooms so that she can be sure later on that no one followed her, and rushes over to the mansion. Her goal, of course, is to kill Battler and then remove the evidence for all of her previous crimes.

Well, it's pretty ridiculous and unlikely, but it's probably possible.

I hope you're not serious...
And she didn't just slit their throats, she first "killed" them then she severed the head just to be sure...

Anyway i just don't like the direction the game is taking. It's like only the Metaworld counts and the gameboard, well, it's just some random game, while in ep1-4 you really felt like it was the real world. Battler found the truth and then it's like "Who cares about who killed my whole family 4 times, as long as i marry the bouncy blonde with blue eyes." He also seems to have totally forgotten about Ange.
My only hope is that as this change happened when he discovered the truth maybe is something that we will accept too once it is revealed.

Originally Posted by Oliver

Actually, if we're talking crack theories...

Kanon filled the closet containing his own body with quick-drying cement. As a result, he no longer exists inside the room -- he exists inside the wall! Until he dies in a few minutes, that is.

He used the tools in the bathtub to cut himself like Bernkastel said

The sad thing it's that this sounds more likely to happen than what really happened.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Sniesk

I hope you're not serious...
And she didn't just slit their throats, she first "killed" them then she severed the head just to be sure...

Like I said, not completely serious, but it is possible. Of course, Erika's reason for severing the heads would be to make absolutely certain of their deaths. After all, they had already faked their deaths once. If she wanted to take no chances and had a particularly childish mind, this might make sense to her.

The only reason this theory might hold water is because of the game itself. The odds of her actually going through with this might have been astronomically low, but as long as the idea could get into her head, it might be possible to make her do it within the game. It's said that the players can control their characters as long as they do nothing impossible, so maybe plausibility isn't a factor. Still, I think everyone needs to have a reason for everything they do.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Exilon

One of the most important things I found in this game was the relationship between "baby" Beato and Battler. the whole meta-secenes relating to them all looked like a huge metaphor to Kinzo and Beatrice-2. In fact, everything coincides and snaps in beautifully. anyone else got this impression?

Also, when Elder Beatrice and beato were talking to each other and I was writing down the notes making seperate lists for each other, I suddenly wrote above The Elder "THE LEGEND" and above the other "THE PROMISE" which I then scratched and replaced by "THE HUMAN".

By the way, I've been calling the younger Beatrice 'Moetrice' since... well.. she is so moe. 8) And it slightly fits as in Japanese her name (at least on the character polls) is 妹ベアト "Imouto Beato". Moe sounds a bit like Imouto.

We wanted to popularize Big-Sis Beatrice as Trolltrice or something but since she didn't turn out that mean it didn't fit. She actually seems like a nice person to help you push servants off stairs... or just to hang out with. I was calling her Big-Sis Beatrice since it's 姉ベアト on the character polls.


Moetrice and Big-Sis Beatrice don't seem to correspond to the previous Beatrices that we saw; Suit-Beatrice and Meta-Beatrice. Suit-Beatrice seemed more just what she wore when she needed to appear on the gameboard (and so maybe that's a hint that someone was 'playing' her).


Maybe in EP7 we'll get a Big-Bomb-Beatrice. She's fat, sits in one place and suddenly gets mad at you exactly at midnight. 8)

[Sniesk]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Like I said, not completely serious, but it is possible. Of course, Erika's reason for severing the heads would be to make absolutely certain of their deaths. After all, they had already faked their deaths once. If she wanted to take no chances and had a particularly childish mind, this might make sense to her.

The only reason this theory might hold water is because of the game itself. The odds of her actually going through with this might have been astronomically low, but as long as the idea could get into her head, it might be possible to make her do it within the game. It's said that the players can control their characters as long as they do nothing impossible, so maybe plausibility isn't a factor. Still, I think everyone needs to have a reason for everything they do.

Since ep1, i always tried to read thing keeping in mind that the "gameboard" is the real world, and the Meta-World is just a magical metaphor for the facts that happens on the board. And so we could actually reason it out by applying common sense to the event from ep1 to ep4.
Then what's the point to ep5-6 gameboard? They can't be regarded with common sense. I mean, if you take into account only the gameboard, then the answer to it is that a crazy girl killed 5 people to make sure they were dead. And that is ridiculus.
Also, for what reason Shannon would have to:
1) Change into Kanon personality and exit a room (sealed, but NOT locked, and she didn't know it was sealed) from the window climbing down from the second floor.
2) Go to a room where she (well he is "he" now) couldn't know something was happening
3) "Save" Battler (What's the point? He wasn't really trapped)
4) Die, or change personality (this allowed the red truth, which she shouldn't know of)

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Sniesk

Since ep1, i always tried to read thing keeping in mind that the "gameboard" is the real world, and the Meta-World is just a magical metaphor for the facts that happens on the board. And so we could actually reason it out by applying common sense to the event from ep1 to ep4.
Then what's the point to ep5-6 gameboard? They can't be regarded with common sense. I mean, if you take into account only the gameboard, then the answer to it is that a crazy girl killed 5 people to make sure they were dead. And that is ridiculus.
Also, for what reason Shannon would have to:
1) Change into Kanon personality and exit a room (sealed, but NOT locked, and she didn't know it was sealed) from the window climbing down from the second floor.
2) Go to a room where she (well he is "he" now) couldn't know something was happening
3) "Save" Battler
4) Die, or change personality (to allow the red truth)

I'd prefer to think that there is a reason we haven't found, rather than assume that it's impossible for there to be a reason.

[Renall]

I think Chiru episodes have a consistent board narrative, it's just layered so heavily in interpretation and nonsense that it looks ridiculous.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

I think Chiru episodes have a consistent board narrative, it's just layered so heavily in interpretation and nonsense that it looks ridiculous.

Finally, something we can totally agree on. It's been a while, unfortunately...

[zRyuu]

Like Beato said, if you had love, it wouldnt look ridiculous, it'd look splendid

[Sniesk]

Of course if you love Erika you will understand why she go around sealing windows and killing dead people

[Oliver]

Listening to Hachijou, who obviously has no love for her readers, well... if nobody gives us any love, how would we have it?

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Listening to Hachijou, who obviously has no love for her readers, well... if nobody gives us any love, how would we have it?

Nah, Hachijo is a monster. Don't listen to her.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Sniesk

Of course if you love Erika you will understand why she go around sealing windows and killing dead people

you can't kill dead people. she killed people that were alive.