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View Poll Results: Ore no Imouto - Episode 9 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 54 | 41.86% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 35 | 27.13% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 20 | 15.50% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 11 | 8.53% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 5 | 3.88% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 0 | 0% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 1 | 0.78% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 2 | 1.55% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 1 | 0.78% | |
Voters: 129. You may not vote on this poll |
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2010-11-29, 21:32 | Link #141 | |||||||
Senior Member
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Spoiler for Comparison to Fate/stay night:
Likewise, there are many key elements to Kirino's character (her otaku interests, her drive for personal success, her pride in herself) that would remain even if she became more dere. Look, Haruhi Suzumiya didn't cease to be Haruhi Suzumiya just because she flashed a few genuinely sweet smiles at Kyon once in awhile. I'm really not hoping for a lot here; just some small outward sign of appreciation and kindness towards Kyousuke. If Kirino just did as much as even Haruhi did, I'd be fine with it. Quote:
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But, in any event, are you saying that you don't think that Kirino will ever show a dere side to Kyousuke? Quote:
I mean, what's the point in a person having a softer side if he or she never shows that to anybody else? As far as the rest of the world is concerned, that person might as well not have a softer side. Quote:
I can definitely see the appeal (even from a third-party perspective) to someone who hides their emotions behind a somewhat cold or harsh exterior, and who gradually lets them out over time after learning to let their guard down. But that doesn't describe Kirino. Maybe 0utf0xZer0 is right, and she's not even a tsundere. Quote:
I can see a person being like this for awhile. Even in real life, there's a saying of "If a girl teases you a lot, it's because she likes you". Yes, there's something to be said for reverse psychology, and people trying to mask their true feelings for someone in order to avoid vulnerability. But there comes a point where, if you truly like or love someone, you're going to stop being mean to them all the time. That's my opinion, anyway. I guess that people more into tsunderes than I are simply able to suspend disbelief more than I can. Quote:
I just can't suspend disbelief enough to hold that appeal for Kirino as well. But for people who can, yes, I can kind of see the appeal based on what you wrote.
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2010-11-29 at 23:02. Reason: All comparisons to other works must be behind spoiler tags |
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2010-11-29, 22:03 | Link #142 |
~Omedetô~
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Somewhere between heaven and hell !
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Well , eroge part aside , our prediction about Saori who is probably a beauty behind her glasses was true. Otak princess !
Anyway , Kuroneko's slice of life was very nice. I tell ya , she stole the show :O (Kinda feel that incest is inceasing every ep...) |
2010-11-29, 22:17 | Link #143 |
Seishu's Ace
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kobe, Japan
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Saori was gorgeous in my eyes already...
Wow - that was really something. Without any nudity or even suggestive language, that was about as naughty as any anime I've seen in a long time. The squealing, the busy shower, the lovemaking with the pillow - what a performance! It's no wonder Kyousuke was going a little nuts listening to it. For every step Kirino takes towards being irredeemably a bitch, Kuroneko becomes that much more adorable. It was nice to see her in slice-of-life mode - and even nicer that Kyou chose to call her when he couldn't take the hentai any more. "Just to see what she'd been doing" - major relationship flag there. Now I just wonder if Kyou is invited to the cosplay party, too. While I still have the same fundamental problem with this show that I've had from the beginning - Kirino is a totally unsympathetic character - at least this week the writing staff showed they're on top of that, with the vicious self-mockery of Kirino's eroge ("She's 100% tsun, 0% dere!"). Kirino got a taste of her own medicine, but will it actually change her behavior? There were clear signs she thought the hints hit too close to home, but her only reaction was to act out even more and be a bigger bitch to Kyousuke. In a sense I almost admire the fact that the writers are staying the course here - they know she's awful and they're pot-committed. But where does that lead to in terms of an ending?
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2010-11-29, 22:37 | Link #144 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: U.S.
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and I'm hope you don't watch your regular porn in front of others either..... Quote:
you might find eroge disturbing, I find that pretty natural and hell lot better than try to suppress yourself and ends up being a criminal. Again, to each their own.... Besides, once you get keeply involve with ACG, it's almost impossible not to notice the dark side of that world that's supporting it. Too many animator started out as eroge designers dojinshi artist, too many mangaka at one time or another drew adult dojinshi, too many renown artists does side works for eroge, and some of the best LN/manga writer starts out or still heavily involve in eroge. Quote:
Yes, I personally don't think she'll ever change, if she does, it'll be at the very end of the series when a bulb lites up inside her head. I believe the whole series is about Kyosuke slowing realizing that everything Kirino says or does is opposite from her actual intent and he comes to accept that fact. While during that discovery, he'll figure out why they grew apart in the first place. Again, this is me with knowledge of LN saying this. However, I can certainly understand anime-only viewer might get frustrated since they are missing a lot of Kyosuke's inner thoughts and dialog and at same time the anime is not doing that clear a job focusing on those parts. But on the other hand, I thought this series is very well done with the exception of last episode and half and it should be clear that the focus of the series is on how Kyosuke's getting more involve with Kirino life, instead of how Kirino's life changes because of Kyosuke's involvement. Afterall, Kirino's life had already changed once because of Kyosuke...
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Last edited by Undertaker; 2010-11-29 at 23:04. |
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2010-11-29, 22:53 | Link #145 |
True Harem End or BUST
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Well, I'm one of the people who are seriously upset with Kirino's ways right now. I understand there might be past issues, but Kyou has done more than enough to make up for it IMHO. He's put his name on the line for her countless times, and gets no respect. He gets ONE thank you, then gets slapped and kicked the next day. I'm not asking for her to be all "make love to me onii-san"..but at least enough to respect the notion of someone doing something for you. This is one of the first animes where I just about HATE the main character and Love the series at the same time. Even the Creator of the series stated countless times that they HATED Kirino, which I find very interesting making me wonder where the series is heading. BUT, like others, I'm trying to be patient, to feel that pleasure of being granted that DERE that I've waited 3/4 of the series for. There is so much one can take before they move on to something and/or someone better, and with what I've heard from others about whats currently happening in the novels, Kirino's time is SEVERELY running out
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2010-11-29, 22:56 | Link #146 | ||
.: A bad doggy :.
Join Date: Jun 2007
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That's why I said it was disturbing that she was doing it with her brother in the next room and all that.
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I generally tend to gravitate towards one character with games, but eroge tend to force you to go through one path before you go to another, or something of that sort. An example: My friend let me borrow Tsukihime because I play Melty Blood competitively. So I was sure, why not? I play Hisui, so naturally I want to learn about Hisui. I can't do that. I have to play through Arcuied's route first. I don't want to do that, I want to learn more about Hisui. Making you sift through paths like that is something I can't sit down and trudge through to get what I want, especially given how long games like this take. The same thing happened with Fate. I don't care for Saber or Rin, and was really curious about what happens to Sakura. Nope, have to go through Saber and Rin before I can. Not happening. Again, not a fault of the game, and I'm not dismissing anyone who enjoys it. Just can't do it myself. Quote:
2. If you have to surpress yourself, or use these games to do so you are in serious need of help / therapy.
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2010-11-29, 22:57 | Link #147 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Tennessee
Age: 36
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That's what I'm banking on myself. I don't think Kirino's a tsundere; I think she's just a bitter, resentful girl that's still hung up over whatever happened in their past. That line in episode 5 along the lines of "Why are you pretending to be a good big brother now?" sums everything up, I think. We don't know what happened yet that spoiled their relationship - maybe it was something dramatic like a fight, maybe it was something else - but I wouldn't be surprised if Kirino finds it difficult to move on from whatever happened. It's been pretty firmly established by this point that she's hyperemotional to the nth degree. Molesting that dakimakura pillow and rolling around the floor with it, falling sick over having her work stolen (I'm ignoring the stupid anime version of that storyline here)... if Kirino gets that worked up over a fucking eroge, who knows how deeply a familial conflict (Regardless of whether it was a cold war or otherwise) of potentially several years might have effected her? Kyosuke says in episode 8 that he 'hates' Kirino, so maybe he expressed that hate at some point, maybe he said or did some hateful, nasty things (Or at least acted coldly or passive-aggressively at certain points, which might be more in-character than outright belligerence... though who knows, Kyosuke showed this episode that he can lash out whenever frustrated, and over a pretty trivial issue in Kirino being too loud and horny at that) in years past that continue to dig at her (And which might make the shit he's put himself through for her sake resonate less sincerely; 'Yeah, you've done some nice things for me, but that doesn't take away or explain what happened back then'). Maybe Kirino doesn't want their relationship to get too warm or friendly because she's afraid that if she does, she'll lose her chance or her right to vent her misgrievings, that their former conflicts might get swept under the rug and never addressed. This is all idle speculation, not asking you to buy any of it, but I trust that this is all going somewhere and that Kirino's glacially slow shift from tsun to dere is all very calculated and methodical and doesn't indicate bad writing, because...
a) Kirino is, on the whole, a very friendly person. She's nothing but bright and cheerful to anyone whose name isn't Kyosuke or Kuroneko (And Kuroneko's the one who cast the first stone, if I remember correctly, though I'm glad she did since the snarkfest their friendship developed into rules). I think she would need some kind of heavy catalyst to treat Kyosuke with such animosity when it goes against her usual character. That might not change your opinion about whether or not the way she treats him is completely unjustified, of course, but at the least I think she's fueled mostly by hurt rather than just being a total bitch by default. b) Ore no Imotou is just a well-written enough series that I have faith in it, and one characterization-related theme I think it does well is demonstrating how people show different sides of themselves depending on their company and how said company makes them feel about themselves. Kyosuke acts different around Manami's family than he does his own, Kuroneko treats her little sister much differently than she does most other people, Saori seems less quirky and goofy around her maids (The one with long brown hair is pretty fucking hot, by the way)... I think Kirino's different treatment of Kyosuke is just a very delibrate part of that theme, with the 'Why' to be answered later. I don't know, for the most part the writing just seems too competent to not expect good things. Anyway, that's just my take on everything. Might be completely wrong. I'm not really sure how Kirino would act were she romantically interested in someone that she had less or no emotional baggage with, though. There's always the chance that she might be the anti-tsundere, that the hyperearnest attitude she showed when making all those demands for her anime (And which she possesses in general) might translate into romance. "We're already on our third date, why haven't you proposed to me yet?" |
2010-11-29, 23:21 | Link #148 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: U.S.
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In that case, I can relate. I hate when they does that as well. That why I still think Dokyusei series is pinnacle for pure-love type eroge and both origiinal Tokimeki Memorial and Sentimental Graffiti are still the best bishojo games ever. And yeah, I agree Kirino is going a bit overboard, but the important part I believe is that the parents are not home, who gives a heck about siblings? As for suppress ones self, I'm not talking about the urge to do those things in game, I mean, I can't summon a hot swordsman as servent even if I wanted to nor have a hot classmate suddenly decides to move in with you. I talking about stresses and pressures built up in you everyday life. To me, eroge is exactly the same as games like Call of Duty or Mario Kart. They are things that lets you escape to your fantasies and relief yourself.... (which ever way you would like) Though just to make clear, I still have more respect for people who uses games to relief their criminal urges than fucked-up people who uses games (of any type) as excuse for their crimes. I'm sorry, if you can't tell what is real and what's not, you are messed up to begin with....
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2010-11-29, 23:23 | Link #149 | ||
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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* It occurs to me after I wrote this that some might argue that having no relationship with Kirino at all would be better than the sort of "abuse" she puts him through. If that's the way you look at it, then I'll at least suggest that doesn't seem to be the way Kyousuke looks at it.
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2010-11-29, 23:35 | Link #150 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: U.S.
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Spoiler for Long Quotes:
Nice post, I wish it was there when I reply my last one. But yes, everyone in this series so far has at least 2 sides, and that's not to they they are bad or pretentious. You acts according to who is your companies, its until you get comfortable with them and you know that you won't lose them then you shows them that hidden side. There's a reason why Kuroneko is Kuroneko, why Saori dresses as stereotypical otaku, why Ayase is acting perfect in front of Kirino, and why Kirino is acting like that in front of Kyosuke. With that being side, I highly recommend everyone to read the original light novel, even if they are fan-translated. There is a reason why this series got popular in such short period of time and have gotten positive reviews in the ACG world. Quote:
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2010-11-30, 00:29 | Link #151 | |
Dango Daikaizoku
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Southern California
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Now, that isn't to say I think the writer isn't allowed to create a character that is 100% tsun and no dere who acts sweet but is secretly completely self-centered. That's a legitimate character type. The issue I have is twofold. First, the idea that such a character should be sympathetic baffles me. If the author wants us to dislike Kirino at this point then mission accomplished but I was under the impression based on the title and premise that we're supposed to want Kyouske and Kirino to grow closer together and I personally have no desire for anything like that. If this was a VN I'd be rushing to the Manami route and never looking back. Secondly, I question people's characterization of Kirino as tsundere. I feel like we're working under the assumption that any eligible female character is presumed to have a soft spot for the protagonist unless proven otherwise. I don't see any sign of Kirino having a dere side towards Kyouske other than the assumption that a sister should love her brother and the fact that she's neck deep (or i guess based on the first episode over her head) in siscon games. I don't buy it at this point. Maybe I'm biased because I don't like tsunderes and rarely find the payoff worth it. But nothing is worth the level of abuse Kyouske takes from Kirino.
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2010-11-30, 00:58 | Link #152 |
Working the bags...
Join Date: Mar 2009
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She's a bitch of a sister point blank. My younger sister of several years and I have fought tooth an nail at times to the point of not talking to each other for days. However, we'll always make up and she actually shows that she cares through various ways, i.e hug or whatever...
I've yet to see anything from Kirino that she cares or hell even acknowledges Kyosuke when it's not in her best interest. Maybe I've missed something like an underlining facial expression or whatever. Like the scene where they met each other with him coming out of the bath. I'm not Kakashi and can easily see underneath the underneath... |
2010-11-30, 01:02 | Link #153 | |
Senior Member
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Which is partly why I expected Kirino to become nicer/less abusive over time. But if she doesn't change, I also have no desire for Kyousuke and Kirino to grow closer together. Why would I want to wish such a thing on a decent guy like Kyousuke? He's done nothing to deserve a long-term abusive relationship like that.
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2010-11-30, 01:05 | Link #154 | |||
Anime-Only Viewer
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: USA
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In effect, she reflects more of her real life circumstances with her only experience, which are the games she play. Although I understand her better, thank you, it still does not excuse her behavior towards her brother. In retrospect, these are all selfish behaviors on her part to feel secure, but it only adds more to her frustrations inside. Quote:
Well, that is my opinion, as well. Quote:
There are ways to be truly friendly and also gain respect, like what Kyosuke does. Her way of doing things actually will make her truly lonely one day if she does not change her ways (from what I have seen in real life).
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2010-11-30, 01:11 | Link #155 | |
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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Equating it with wife-beating? A long-term abusive relationship? Whether it'd hold up as abuse in the court of law? Take a pill, man... it's make-believe. She's not going to hurt you or anyone. Just because people like Kirino's character and understand where she's coming from in the context of this fictional story (based on tropes in other fictional stories) doesn't mean they support domestic violence. I can scarcely believe you took us there. I'm going to ask you nicely to just back down. Enough already.
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2010-11-30, 01:30 | Link #156 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: U.S.
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@Triple_R
That's the difference in culture than, my Asian up-bringing demands that I have relations with family members that I don't like or can't stand. and as far as sibling goes, I need to protect them no matter what as the oldest sibling. You can disagree, but that how my society taught me and that's how I was raised. If my sibling ends up messed up and I don't help them when I could have, then I failed as a brother and will be treated accordinlyg when I went back to Taiwan. Hell, my mom was blasted by our family elders and other family member for not being back there taking care of my grandpa when he had surgery. Even thought my dad was there for 3 month and I took a month off from work to go there after he's back. And that's despite the fact, my aunt is living 5 mins away from my grandparents and my uncle is living next door!!!!!! All because she's the wife of the oldest son. As for Kirino's action. Yeah she was the one that dragged Kyosuke in with her "counseling" but the reason behind it was that she needs a culprit more than anything. She didn't expect Kyosuke to did what he did afterward. If you wtach it again, all she did was showing him her collections. Kyosuke was the one that suggests internet meeting, the one who decided to stand up to their dad, the one decide to go to Natsu-Comi, the one who try to fix her friendship with Ayase, the one who..... Granted, with all that Kyosuke had done for her, Kirino should be grateful, but with all due respect, she did not ask for those involvement. She only showed him the collection and force him to play eroge so she has someone discuss them with that's all. If you look it that way, it could be her way of trying to ask for attention. @DasDingus Kirino is still a tsundere, albeit an extremely tsun one. The broadest explanation for tsundere is that their speech belies their true feeling. And Kirino qualifies that, while it not as easy to spot, you can still find hints that Kirino's action and speech is not inductive of what she feel. And while I don't love her character, not in LN and even less in anime, I still finds her to be cute at certain scene and that''s enough for me to not dislike her and apparently for the author, that's enough for Kyosuke as well. I'm not going to use the LN because that's too easy (and against spoiler rule), but for example, in episode 4 when Kanako and Ayase visits Kirino's room and Kyosuke was next door. Kirino began to rant and degrading Kyosuke only after Ayase complimented him, but after Kanako starts to degrading Kyosuke as well, note that Kirino suddenly shuts up and didn't talk. Those are little hints that Kirino doesn't hat Kyosuke as much as she claims to be (or she believe herself to be). There an Chinese saying love and hate is only separates by a line and there are plenty of anime that shows that.
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Last edited by Undertaker; 2010-11-30 at 01:40. |
2010-11-30, 01:38 | Link #157 | |
On a mission
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But if we view this work as completely detatched from reality, then there's no point in any discussion, really.
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2010-11-30, 01:39 | Link #158 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Tennessee
Age: 36
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And to clarify in case Triple got the wrong idea, I wasn't trying to condone or excuse the physical abuse in that post of mine; I discard it altogether, actually, on grounds of being slapstick. |
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2010-11-30, 01:44 | Link #159 | |
On a mission
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But it still makes me wonder why a socially capable and intelligent girl would engage in this behavior. I'm certainly hoping for a reason, but would really want this info. It's a bit frustrating since the series is almost over; so praying for a second season.
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