Claymore Chapter 113

[Cyclone]

There are only 2 goddesses of course: Teresa and Galatea-sama
Haegar knows me well.

@Ryus:
Please don't assume I don't know the history of something, when I simply disagree with you. Yagi is the god of this little universe, and he simply decided to let Miria live (in a situation where she was doomed to die) by fiat by making the other characters act out of character. It's quite clear to me he intervened every bit as much as if struck down Raftaela with a lightning bolt at the last second, or broke open the heavens and had God himself appear and decree them to stop. Yagi's choice was slightly less blatant, but every bit as contrived in my opinion - you're free to disagree, of course.

[Ryus]

Originally Posted by Cyclone

@Ryus:
Please don't assume I don't know the history of something, when I simply disagree with you. Yagi is the god of this little universe, and he simply decided to let Miria live (in a situation where she was doomed to die) by fiat by making the other characters act out of character. It's quite clear to me he intervened every bit as much as if struck down Raftaela with a lightning bolt at the last second, or broke open the heavens and had God himself appear and decree them to stop. Yagi's choice was slightly less blatant, but every bit as contrived in my opinion - you're free to disagree, of course.

I think you misunderstood my intent. All the tropes I mentioned weren't used nearly as well as they could have been. So I wasn't really saying your opinion was stupid just that you where incorrect with your terminology. It's up to you if you liked the Fridge Brilliance of Miria's return and/or Diabolus Ex Machina of Raftela killing Miria.

I personally hated the Diabolus Ex Machina used to kill Miria and liked the Fridge Brilliance used to make her never dead in the first place enough to go with it (though didn't really touch upon it with you though I think you may have felt that I was)... based on your prior posts I believe you had the opposite opinion (you voted 9 out of 10 on the ch 107 thread after all) but that's not what I was debating with you. I was debating the writing elements used, nothing more or less... sorry if you though I was doing something more.

[Ouvea]

Originally Posted by Ryus

Simple, Clare felt responsible for Teresa's death and indirectly as a result responsible for Priscilla as a result.

Finally Clare has chosen to kill Priscilla for Ophelia's sake so just how could she use Ophelia's death to make nice with Miria... plus Clare just isn't the type for making nice just because.

Hi Ryus:

Could you elaborate on your first statement? You lost me on the bit in regards to Priscilla. I agree with you that Clare feels a sense of responsibility for Teresa's death If it wasn't for Clare's predicament in Roku/Rokert, Teresa would not have gone beserk, killing the humans and signing her death warrant. She couldn't forgive herself for being unable to help Teresa in her final moments, lamenting her inability to even hate the person that had killed Teresa.

I'm just lost in regards to Clare feeling responsible for Priscilla? Are you saying that Clare influenced Priscilla's actions on that unfortunate day? You also lost me with Clare reconciling with Miria. Did a rift occur between the two that I missed?

Ouvea

[irvinethearcher]

Originally Posted by revan5

It's more likely the new recruits will be slaughtered by the 3 Abyssal-strength opponents Dae is working on and then we'll be forced to go to Claire. Dae said he needed more time, but now he has none. I would guess this means that the individuals he's waking up will be in very bad state mentally. At least we now know how the Organization is going to go under (I think). It's quite likely they'll unleash these three things, they'll go wild, killing claymores and Organization men alike, and whoever's still alive will be forced to beat a hasty retreat towards Claire and Prissy.

Relying on priscilla is IMO like trying to cast out devils by the beelzebub.
But if theresa is among those three #1s there will be no other option.

[Gooral]

I'll be brief too since I don't have much time either Ryus. Basically, I hear you and your argument about the current situation (especially Claymores knowing about Pieta) is convincing. But you can't expect me to not have problems with it since I've already had a problem with Galatea believing Miria and this is even less convincing. It could make sense after making several assumptions but for now it's not. I won't discuss it further (at least not in this thread and hopefully not in the next) since I may as well have jumped the gun.

@ Shiek and Ryus
Because they're not brain-dead and can think for themselves at least some of them (more like many, unless most of them are idiots/suckers) should be sceptical what a Claymore who they've never seen before (well, most of them at least) and who is on their mercy has to say. I was imagining some kind of internal conflict or a discussion at least (which would bring attention of the handlers), not Borg collective that thinks the same thing. So unless Rubel was kind enough to provide evidence or back-up Miria's story the end result is too convenient and sloppy. Yagi made idiots out of MiB to achieve it (they didn't check whether Miria was dead and they let Claymores take care of the body). Most Claymores we've seen were very loyal to the organization and had no reason to doubt them. How many knew what Teresa knew? None that we know of (excluding Miria). So if someone revelead such information to a not suspecting Claymore it would be a bombshell to him and I don't see why someone would buy it. Yes, these were more disturbing times but I don't see how it could make Claymores doubt the organization. They've finally managed to get rid of Abyssal Ones and they weren't the ones who wiped out south, Isley did it. And for all they knew he would do it anyway unless he was stopped.

Miria wasn't saving Claymores, she was attacking them with premeditation. By going against the organization and attacking it was obvious she would have to fight other Claymores and she didn't want to submit to organization's rules and let herself be executed for the crime she commited.
I could understand why Ana and the rest would give Deneve and co. the benefit of the doubt (especially seeing Dee defending them) since they were saved by them but it's not the situation with Miria. Miria didn't save them (only Audrey and co. but as we've seen Audrey wasn't exactly grateful to her). I was expecting that after Claymores will see Dee and Anastasia and others working with the ghosts SOME of them could do the same but there would be an internal conflict (which would also be beneficial to the ghosts intending to destroy the organization). But instead of waiting on the ghosts+Dee+Ana with this (and probably last) generation of Claymores Yagi just made them believe Miria. Too convenient if you ask me. It's clean, it's fast and it allows the story to go by smoothly but I'm not buying this.

Originally Posted by Ryus

(...) After all have we meet a low ranking indoctrinated warrior yet? (...)

And have we met rebellious warriors? Not really. Almost all Claymores we've seen carried out their orders. We've seen very loyal Claymores besides Priscilla. Audrey, Dee, Irene, Sophia and Noel are the best examples. The only time Claymores broke rules was when they needed to kill their comrade and they owned their life to that someone (Galatea, Jean, Audrey). But these were occasional accidents and we have no reason to believe that it would trump breaking the iron clad rule (which Miria attempted to do). Even when their lives were at stake they didn't disobey. For example when Clarice had her sword stuck in a tree she didn't release any youki, Galatea went into the witches maw to save Clare (and basically she knew that she has no chance of getting out of there alive). And in Pieta no one even tried to escape (even Miria instead of handing over the pills, explaining the situation and making everyone scatter preferred to go with her plan which resulted in 7 Claymores standing). And as I said before, even though Galatea knew more than most about MiB and she knew they wanted her dead she wasn't easy to convince.
As for Audrey telling Clare about Galatea, why wouldn't she? She owed her big time and Clare didn't ask about anything top secret but a health of a fellow comrade. And I seriously doubt that Audrey had orders to kill unknown Claymores or not tell them anything and as we could see with loyal Dee that was enough to bend the rules (if it can be called bending at all).

Originally Posted by Ryus

(...)Talking of killing some like that is easy but doing so is hard, especially after 10 of your friends just faked her death and got away with it.(...)

Yes, but it's still a long way from rebelling fully (i.e. attacking the org itself). It's one thing to disobey one order, it's another to attack/kill your superior. Well, we'll have to see what they'll do. For now I'm not satisfied with what I'm seeing. I can see them rebelling after they see Ana, Dee and the rest cooperating with ghosts (especially after what MiB said to them) but not now.

[irvinethearcher]

Originally Posted by Cyclone

Egads - that's a lot of posts.

About this converting the Claymores thing by sparing them. You guys are forgetting one fairly obvious thing. Miria was beaten by #10. A number #10 who is bred for no other reason than to protect the MiBs and HQ. How likely is it that such a person spared Miria, and why would she do it?

As for the Claymores all deciding to spare Miria, it was a suicidally reckless for each of them to try and commit this kind of fraud with the whole Organization watching. It would only take one Claymore like Clarice who is more interested in saving her own life than morality, to seal Miria's fate as well as the fate of all the other Claymores involved in the attempted deception (why didn't #10 tell?). Teresa's hunting party was made up of 3 battle hardened veterans who simply obeyed in order to survive, and 1 naive enough idiot that believed the lies and half truths.

It's also amazing to me that each Claymore cut down had the same reaction: "She spared my life - how kind of her!", instead of something more along the lines of: "That really hurt you crazy psycho bitch! I'll slit your throat for this!".

Yagi is stretching credibility to the breaking point by this. I suppose I'm going to have to overlook this little deux ex machine - at least Yagi made it easier for me to swallow because, afterall, I'm glad that Miria's ok.

How many parties did the ghosts actually save before miria confronted the org in the east? Let's see:
1. They saved clarice's party in the north(clarice + 3 others)
2. Helen and Deneve saved dietrich's party(dietrich + 3 others)
3. They saved rachel and audrey and other claymores from rivul of the west(rachel,audrey + 2 others)
4. Clare did save/spare a party as well
I am counting 14 saved claymores who could have been there when miria attacked assuming that the ghosts did not save one person a second time.
And there are those claymores who are already rebelling: 47 - (4(anastasia's party) + dietrich + clarice + miata).
So at best 14/40 of the claymores who fought miria were already saved once by the ghosts.

And we have seen that the word about the ghosts spread among the claymores.
I think therefore the behaviour of the claymores isn't that implausible even if it surprises.
I think it wasn't about rebelling at first. As i understood it it was simply that no one could do the coup de grace, because no one wanted to stain herself with miria's blood. So they did basically the same to miria what miria had done to them and despite knowing quite well that this could bring them in trouble they couldn't finish her off. It was the same with miria and the shrimp twins. When the mib said enough she was still alive. And when the mibs were gone the claymores asked them self what to do with her. So they considered to interrogate her before killing her and everything started.

[Newhope]

They was already rumors among the current Gen of claymore's as early as chapter 68 that Nina's AB hunting group was saved by a group of "ghosts".

I wouldn't be surprised if the ORG warriors where becomming more and more suspicious with each new encounter, the ghosts always saved them conflicted with the ORG are saying there evil AB monsters, then you have Miria walk in with overwhelming strength and spare's them yet again, seeds of doubt can sprout from even the smallest of uncertainties.

[yononaka]

@Cyclone

Is it just me or is there some dissonance between your rather strong criticism (which I basically argee with) and your rating of this chapter (9 out of 10)? I know I personally didn't forget about Raftela, which made the whole "all together now" thing even weirder than it already was. I was tempted to bring her up specifically (and I'm glad you did), but it felt weird to keep raining on the parade of those rejoicing in Miria's survival. (After all, even for you that seems to trump every shortcoming in the end.) I suppose we'll have to assume something fittingly cheesy, like for example she was swayed by the purity of Miria's heart she felt when she manipulated her youki, etc.

@Ryus

The title of the Fridge Brilliance trope assumes that there is in fact brilliance to be found in the fridge. A mere realization of what was the purpose of the plot twist you at first didn't like is not enough if you don't much like the follow-up either. Then it's more like putting something half edible in the fridge and later finding out the power has failed. (Runs to hide from the negative reppers.)

[Shiek927]

Maaaaan, you guys never go to sleep do you?

Originally Posted by Cyclone

It's also amazing to me that each Claymore cut down had the same reaction: "She spared my life - how kind of her!", instead of something more along the lines of: "That really hurt you crazy psycho bitch! I'll slit your throat for this!".

How do we know they didn't Cyclone?

Think about it, did we really see what happened? No, all we got was a kind of flashback that quickly summed up the events...we didn't actually see what was happening at real-time, and don't know if their any disagreements or arguements what to do with her.

[Ryus]

Originally Posted by yononaka

@Cyclone

Is it just me or is there some dissonance between your rather strong criticism (which I basically argee with) and your rating of this chapter (9 out of 10)? I know I personally didn't forget about Raftela, which made the whole "all together now" thing even weirder than it already was. I was tempted to bring her up specifically (and I'm glad you did), but it felt weird to keep raining on the parade of those rejoicing in Miria's survival. (After all, even for you that seems to trump every shortcoming in the end.) I suppose we'll have to assume something fittingly cheesy, like for example she was swayed by the purity of Miria's heart she felt when she manipulated her youki, etc.

@Ryus

The title of the Fridge Brilliance trope assumes that there is in fact brilliance to be found in the fridge. A mere realization of what was the purpose of the plot twist you at first didn't like is not enough if you don't much like the follow-up either. Then it's more like putting something half edible in the fridge and later finding out the power has failed. (Runs to hide from the negative reppers.)

Um... no. Fridge brilliance does't require brilliance at all... it requires a misdirection to reach a specific point not able to be achieved otherwise. The term comes from an example using a fridge but not as you so eliquently put it. Sorry but on smart phone at the moment so I can't double check line for line what that example is but to paraphrash its a long winded story about some one walking in the dark at night seemingly with something important to do only to open the fridge for a source of light (and yes that was the whole purpose of the misdirection the other details. Not sure about you but that ain't brilliant at all).

Here the fridge brilliances misdirection was every event from Miria's supposed death to this chapter... almost all of it pointless except to make people think Miria was dead and the org troop siding with the ghosts was next to impossible. Please read the link I previously provided about fridge brilliance, no where did it state that it had to be smart to be fridge brilliance.

Ps. Why would anyone neg you for that opinion?


Edit: smartphone acting up hope I'm not repeating myself but very busy for next four days... try to respond asap.... gooral (face palm... almost every warrior disobeyed the org at least once and all the most loyal eventualy turnwith age... its cannon. So I'm sorry to say but that came off to me as one of your weakest posts ever.)
Edit: try to get to the rsst of you asap but today starts 4 very busy days in a row.

[Shiek927]

Blackmagister, Ryus is right......on the surface, they are cold and callous, even to eachother; that's simply the way they have become due too all the experiences in their lives and their training. Even Cynthia, the most extroverted warrior, secretly was harboring trauma inside her...they are still however, nonetheless, happier I'm sure(http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=360).....would they be happier if they actually trusted eachother more? Yes, of course they would; I went into a million speechs about Miria's "death" could have been reversed completely if she actually talked with her comrades about their feelings and their intentions, instead of presuming everything and going solo.

All the warriors are soldiers trained to shoulder everything, to freeze themselves; that's simply who they are, what they have become, after everything they've been through. Again, they are no doubt happier together (The Ghosts), as family and friendships is what truly defines happiness on an island that reeks of isolation(http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...t=358)...still, it's not surprising that the most they ever probably talked about is the present and future, not the pasts...because that's how they are. Empathy, sympathy and kindness has become too alien to them and every other warrior for them to behave in any other way.

[Ghostfriendly]

A LOT was said about the daftness of Miria's original lone attack on the Organisation; it honestly seemed magnificent stupidity to me as well. This chapter fully showed Miria's real victory by turning all the Org Claymores around with the demonstration of willpower. They still don't exactly which of the Org's unforgivable acts she's rebelling against, but they've clearly seen her reason is a bl**dy strong one. I think the emotional reason for them following her was shown convincingly in this chapter; the org Claymores were as awesome as Miria here.

Unfortunately, the Org are probably going to release the no1's before they have full control of them, rather than get wiped out. Now we see if the whole organisation led by Miria (stronger than no 1 in team battles) can outdo an Abyssal one. (If one of them is Teresa, Clare will have to take her down; not too sure about the third). I'm sure Miria isn't going to survive, along with a lot of others, but she did enough this chapter to die satisfied.

I see some people have posted about why telegraph-pole Ratfela didn't sense Miria's death. I agree her yoki might have vanished due to injuries; also Raftela may have been brainwashed to make absolutely sure of her loyalty, and just not have said anything because no one asked her.

The Org might be doing something with Raki too, or the piece of Priscilla in him could be changing him into something else...would be interesting if he ends up fighting with Clare.

[Newhope]

It wasn't really Miria's good planning that caused this it's just pure blind luck she survived all it would have taken is one totally loyal brainwashed Claymore and she would be dead right now.

[yononaka]

Originally Posted by Ryus

Um... no. Fridge brilliance does't require brilliance at all... it requires a misdirection to reach a specific point not able to be achieved otherwise. The term comes from an example using a fridge but not as you so eliquently put it. Sorry but on smart phone at the moment so I can't double check line for line what that example is but to paraphrash its a long winded story about some one walking in the dark at night seemingly with something important to do only to open the fridge for a source of light (and yes that was the whole purpose of the misdirection the other details. Not sure about you but that ain't brilliant at all).

Here the fridge brilliances misdirection was every event from Miria's supposed death to this chapter... almost all of it pointless except to make people think Miria was dead and the org troop siding with the ghosts was next to impossible. Please read the link I previously provided about fridge brilliance, no where did it state that it had to be smart to be fridge brilliance.

<Channeling Cyclone> Please don't assume I haven't read the link you previously provided, when I simply disagree with you.

I'm just interpreting the term differently: that you put your iffy initial impression in the fridge, and then one day you notice it there and suddenly see that it's the perfect ingredient for a new recipe. You literally put the already existing brilliance on ice to realize it later.

Either way, the explanation at tvtropes pretty clearly indicates a change in opinion because of new-found appreciation. Perhaps not for "brilliance" per se, but for something that should be viewed positively nonetheless. So if you don't view it positively even when you see how it falls into place later, you don't have Fridge Brilliance. In other words you can't tell anyone else that something is Fridge Brilliance unless they have the same experience. It's not an "objective" trope.

(I hope we can avoid a lengthy debate about the meaning of words like the one we had last time. If you like, you can substitute "suggests" for "assumes" in the post you responded to.)

Ps. Why would anyone neg you for that opinion?

From the stories people tell, it seems you can easily get neg repped for much less than comparing Miria's survival to spoiled food

[haegar]

Originally Posted by yononaka

From the stories people tell, it seems you can easily get neg repped for much less than comparing Miria's survival to spoiled food

you don't have the feel of somebody drawing mindless aggro negrep, relax

however, you folks managed to confuse me, I'll now have to go look up that fridge brilliance stuff somewhere

[Ghostfriendly]

Originally Posted by Newhope

It wasn't really Miria's good planning that caused this it's just pure blind luck she survived all it would have taken is one totally loyal brainwashed Claymore and she would be dead right now.

Not really her good planning; she certainly didn't plan to get hacked up. Just Miria's inspiration of the other warriors by facing death with such strength.

Originally Posted by Shiek927

Blackmagister, Ryus is right......on the surface, they are cold and callous, even to each other; that's simply the way they have become due too all the experiences in their lives and their training. Even Cynthia, the most extroverted warrior, secretly was harboring trauma inside her...

All the warriors are soldiers trained to shoulder everything, to freeze themselves; that's simply who they are, what they have become, after everything they've been through. Empathy, sympathy and kindness has become too alien to them and every other warrior for them to behave in any other way.

Very well-observed. The only way Miria could communicate with the Claymores true feelings was to fight and defeat them. Biggest Defeat Equals Friendship in shonen history.

It's also amazing to me that each Claymore cut down had the same reaction: "She spared my life - how kind of her!", instead of something more along the lines of: "That really hurt you crazy psycho bitch! I'll slit your throat for this!".

Crowds under huge stress often act as a unit; if the first Claymore hadn't struck a non-lethal blow, the rest might have chopped her up even more thoroughly than they did.

[lordshadowisle]

@irvinethearcher

Indeed, it seems very plausible that rumors regarding the ghosts were well spread amongst the claymores, considering the many times the ghosts saved random parties of claymores. These rumors may have contributed to Miria being spared. It is even possible that Rubel had some part to play in spreading the rumors (for example by rearranging manpower to ensure the stories get passed around); if I recall he was even on the scene when one party of claymores was saved by the ghosts!

Though I still find the scenario unrealistic, it does make sense in some way. Imagine that you're some low-ranked claymore, the small claymore (future #1/2) just spared Miria. What are you going to do, fight her? Moreso with more people, once a few claymores have indicated their positions (by using non-lethal attacks) it becomes harder for the next claymore to do something different.

[Tempest35]

I'm only more amazed that all the hacking Claymores 'got the message' so quickly and just hacked away at her. If just one 'overzealous' Claymore had cut of her head...*shivers*

~*~

Claymore #38: Um...why aren't they...Ooof! *gets punched in the back of the head* OWW!

Claymore #17: Oh, I'm sorry. There was a fly on your head, so I killed it.

Claymore #38: ...ewww, I just washed my hair last night! Anyway, I was about to ask why...*gets punched again* Oww! Stop hitting me!

Claymore #12: Oh I'm sorry. There was a fly on your head, so I killed it.

Claymore #38: ... *I felt NOTHING on my head! They just punched me for no reason!* I just want to ask... *WHAM* *falls to the ground* Owwww~

Claymore #8: ...sure are a lot of flies out today... Don't worry, I killed it.

Claymore #38: ...I get the feeling that I shouldn't ask the question... @.@

Claymore #17: We finally got the fly. XDD

~*~

So let it be known: Hacking to death does not apply to a Claymore unless it is with Windcutter or Flash Sword. Even then it's high-speed dismemberment.

I don't expect Miria to be let off the hook by Tabitha, Deneve and the others - each one of the Ghosts is going to slug her, then cry. XD Although I expect another dramatic pause when she askes, "Where's Clare?"

[Ryus]

Originally Posted by Tempest35

I'm only more amazed that all the hacking Claymores 'got the message' and just hacked away at her. If just one Claymore had cut of her head...*shivers* So let it be known: Hacking to death does not apply to a Claymore unless it is with Windcutter or Flash Sword. Even then it's high-speed dismemberment.

I don't expect Miria to be let off the hook by Tabitha, Deneve and the others - each one of the Ghosts is going to slug her, then cry. XD Although I expect another dramatic pause when she askes, "Where's Clare?"

I can see it now...
Miria:ha you may have 3numer ones but me clare and the rest of the ghosts can equal that.
Helen:... um.... Miria. Clares trapped in a yoki blob afer merging with an awakened in order to take on an AB way stonger an any AO. Good news is she tied it bad news its trapped in the blob with her. Lolz
Miria: O.o
Deneve: This isn't another one of her stories...
Miria: RETREAT!!!

Still on phone at moment forgive lack of replies ans spelling...

[Fenrir_valindri]

Really, Miria's survival will inevitably be a "Your Mileage May Vary" for some people.
But as some have already pointed out, the Diablos Ex Machina that led to Miria's "death" were far more absurd then the events that led to Miria's survival.