Madoka Magica - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[taofd]

Originally Posted by kaigan

i'm currently revisiting the scene of interest. are there any other instances aside from ep 10? if this is entirely unique in ep 10 i would safely assume that the sound by the water droplets is for melodramatic purposes alone either to emphasize homu-chan's tears or the mild rain shower or the unwritten bond between homu and madoka (ie. promise of a lifetime, pardon for using a naruto term). the scene was focused on homu's reflection on the water surface directly below her. the "chime" coincides with the droplets hitting the surface.

however, i find it plausible that we're indeed not watching a contiguous timeline. maybe we are even misdirected on purpose by the show. but considering the recent delay, i think there's still more time to formulate and test our speculations =)

Water droplets are found throughout several episodes . Uh, the one that comes most to mind is when Kyouko has her conversation with Madoka. Also when Sayaka becomes a witch. There are a few more, but I don't have that list handy on me right now.

"Sounds" aren't the only marker's I've noticed. There are several "flashback" events as well. They're definitely a flag for something, and as I've guesstimated, I think they're alternate timeline / divergent points. There are at least 2 or 3 in the first 2 episodes, and there is at least one more in episode 8.

[kaigan]

Originally Posted by taofd

They are not regular droplets in episode 10. The ripples are black, and not situated on the perspective plane. They would have to be slanted if they were droplets in the real world, but they are not o_O.

Also it happens at arguably one of the most important lines in the series? Coincidence? I think not...

you got a point. the color is quite peculiar. however, as i see it in my relative position, the water drops in a plane flat to the water surface. though i maybe wrong on this. when the droplet ripples out, it falls short to reach homu's face so my estimate about the planar coordinates maybe wrong.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Then Homura is a complex issue. While Faust did make a deal with the devil, he did ascend to heaven at the very end instead of being forced to serve Mephistopheles in hell. If this is true to Faust's story, then Homura should be saved in the end. However, only Faust's deal with the devil is well-known, so some may assume that Faust loses his soul to the devil.

i consider this a very good news because it makes a happy true end possible. and would this make homu x mado the canon couple? and i wonder who's the equivalent of the sacred feminine... the cat perhaps?

Originally Posted by taofd

Water droplets are found throughout several episodes . Uh, the one that comes most to mind is when Kyouko has her conversation with Madoka. Also when Sayaka becomes a witch. There are a few more, but I don't have that list handy on me right now.

yes, that would be very interesting to hunt for all of them however, some of them are stationary especially when homu moves, so it's really hard to pinpoint accurately if these water droplets function for cinematic purposes or divergent points or possibly both.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Dawnbringerz

Not exactly.

QB reacted to Homura's word of "I wish that you live on rather than saving me" and appeared, but instead Homura made a contract with "I want to redo my meeting with Kaname-san"

Very big difference.

QB just want Homura to wish for Madoka's revival and get his energy quota, but he got a time traveling MG that poses a threat to his plan instead. I still believe that QB is just a machine/instrument, so he can't turn down Homura's wish, even if it's not exactly what he wanted.



btw, ep11 this Thursday is canceled. Seems like we have to wait another week for the confirmation on theories...

Kyuube seems like he may end up destroying himself with those wishes...unless of course, there are clear limits to what he can grant like wishing to fix the entire Puella Magi system...

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

Given as many tries as required, Homura would have eventually suspected and deduced Kyubey's secret, if Kyubey did not explicitly admit to his intentions himself.

That's the important part. Had Homura been granted only a single loop, it wouldn't have mattered if she learned about witchification. Kyubei would have already collected the energy from Madoka's transformation. But with repeated loops, Homura is able to add preventing Madoka from contracting to her objectives to protect Madoka.
It was two mistakes combined that allow Homura to learn what's really going on and keep retrying to save Madoka.

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by BaKaBaKaOtaKu

with all these faust, gretchen stuff, it's possible that we'd get a happy/satisfying end. XDD it would also mean a madohomu end..XDDDD

Faust is a tragedy; the redemption the characters receive is in the afterlife.

Gretchen's story is tragic: a pure and uncorrupted figure, she is seduced by Faust, is the unwitting agent in the poisoning of her mother, is cursed by the dying words of her brother, also murdered by Faust and Mephistopheles, goes mad and murders her own newborn baby, is sentenced to death, and finally refuses Faust's offer to help her escape her prison. Heavenly voices announce her spiritual redemption.

If I understand correctly, she exemplifies redemption through suffering. The Wikipedia article cites Schopenhauer on this point:

"The great Goethe has given us a distinct and visible description of this denial of the will, brought about by great misfortune and by the despair of all deliverance, in his immortal masterpiece Faust, in the story of the sufferings of Gretchen. I know of no other description in poetry. It is a perfect specimen of the second path, which leads to the denial of the will not, like the first, through the mere knowledge of the suffering of the whole world which one acquires voluntarily, but through the excessive pain felt in one's own person."

Suffering==>self-denial==>sanctity==>salvation.

Rather than seeing these names as signs of Madoka's happy ending, I see them exactly the opposite: as characterizations of the witch Madoka, descriptions of the wrong path she has mistakenly taken that has led her to a terrible end.

I could be wrong. Perhaps Madoka will illustrate a redemption-through-suffering. In that case, the anime will be far darker than even I anticipate.

Anyway, they don't sell kool-aid at JWvG's Soda Fountain. You'll have to look elsewhere.

[Lemon Ice]

lol.

Faust's arrangement is that if during the time while Mephistopheles is serving Faust, Faust is so pleased with anything the devil gives him that he wants to stay in that moment forever, he will die in that instant

Time stop anyone?

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

Faust is a tragedy; the redemption the characters receive is in the afterlife.

Gretchen's story is tragic: a pure and uncorrupted figure, she is seduced by Faust, is the unwitting agent in the poisoning of her mother, is cursed by the dying words of her brother, also murdered by Faust and Mephistopheles, goes mad and murders her own newborn baby, is sentenced to death, and finally refuses Faust's offer to help her escape her prison. Heavenly voices announce her spiritual redemption.

If I understand correctly, she exemplifies redemption through suffering. The Wikipedia article cites Schopenhauer on this point:

"The great Goethe has given us a distinct and visible description of this denial of the will, brought about by great misfortune and by the despair of all deliverance, in his immortal masterpiece Faust, in the story of the sufferings of Gretchen. I know of no other description in poetry. It is a perfect specimen of the second path, which leads to the denial of the will not, like the first, through the mere knowledge of the suffering of the whole world which one acquires voluntarily, but through the excessive pain felt in one's own person."

Suffering==>self-denial==>sanctity==>salvation.

Rather than seeing these names as signs of Madoka's happy ending, I see them exactly the opposite: as characterizations of the witch Madoka, descriptions of the wrong path she has mistakenly taken that has led her to a terrible end.

I could be wrong. Perhaps Madoka will illustrate a redemption-through-suffering. In that case, the anime will be far darker than even I anticipate.

Anyway, they don't sell kool-aid at JWvG's Soda Fountain. You'll have to look elsewhere.

The reason why Gretchen denied Faust's help was because Mephistopheles was with him, and she did not want to accept help from an evil presence. She asks for help from the angels instead and is saved in the end.

Most of Gretchen's suffering can be seen as Faust and Mephistopheles's fault, as she drowned her mother to get to Faust, and her brother dies at the hands of Faust and Mephistopheles. She is only saved when she refuses to get any more involved with her.


For Goethe's Faust, the terms of the contract was for Mephistopheles to serve Faust while he is alive, and if he pleased by whatever the devil does, then he will die in that highest moment of bliss and serve him in hell.
Near the end of the story in the second part, Faust is a man of power favored by the king, and he creates a project to help the community by building houses, dams, etc. He dies in bliss knowing that his project is benefiting humanity, but Mephistopheles believed that something he did gave Faust happiness, and attempts to take him to Hell. Mephistopheles fails, and the angels take him to Heaven.

[omimon]

I think they did some sort of recap episode this week:
http://yarareyaku.com/archives/51739840.html#more

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Yusei Fudo]

why does this remind me of higurashi no naku no koro ni?

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by Yusei Fudo

why does this remind me of higurashi no naku no koro ni?

Because when Rika lost to how destiny went about the events, she would merely go back in time to try to see if she can change anything.

[ThereminVox]

VERY excited to see the Faust connection return. Most of what I have to say about the Gretchen implication has been said, but it certainly points to a sort of bittersweet "good end", in that the greater evil is overcome. Of course, we have no way of knowing the details of such a conclusion and how it would work in the Madokaverse. Gen seems to enjoy his "sad but satisfying" endings. I don't think there's any way Homura and Madoka can ever be together, even in the platonic sense, but unless this a subversion of the Faustian morality, it might be nice to see Madoka's innocent nature turn out to be a useful virtue, rather than a tragic naivety.

[Doddler]

Originally Posted by omimon

I think they did some sort of recap episode this week:
http://yarareyaku.com/archives/51739840.html#more

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

As far as I'm aware, airing of episode 11 was cancelled this week, so maybe they re-aired last weeks ep.

[Forbin]

What does the big boss at the end / beginning do to wreck the world?

[kaigan]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

I just found out from elsewhere, there's a small but significant addition to the Nicovideo stream version of ep10. The name of Madoka's witch form. It's Kriemhild Gretchen

is the nico stream available to all territories or exclusive for premium members and japan only? thanks.

[roriconfan]

There isn't a connection to Faust with this show. Faust knew he was making a deal with the Devil who was there to take his soul from the very start. The girls didn't even know QB is an alien out to turn them witches and harvest their powers for his own agenda.

And as fun as time loops are, having 4 of them in 20 minutes is rushed as hell. I prefer the far more sophisticated version in Tatami Galaxy.

And I sure hope it will not end like Higurashi or the first My Hime.

Plus, if it will end too cheery I will be given the impression they changed the story because of the tsunami.

And here is an easy solution to this whole mess.
Homura, a few hours before the witch arrives: Hey Madoka let's go on a picnic outside the city.
Backup plan: Chloroformium

[Sageblink]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

There isn't a connection to Faust with this show.

Apart for the fact that QB tries to make contract with girls involving their soul, and that some quotes from Goethe can be seen in the background, yeah, there is no connection.

[sa547]

Differences between the broadcast and NicoNico versions:

Spoiler:

I expect that the latter may soon be included in the BRs.

[Jimmy C]

The BRs are the whole point of these revisions. You really have to shake your head at some of the mistakes they made. I can understand filling in placeholders with color, but having to remove stuff you accidentally put in is just embaressing.

[sa547]

I'll keep the original broadcast versions for posterity.

[kaigan]

Originally Posted by sa547

Differences between the broadcast and NicoNico versions:

Spoiler:

I expect that the latter may soon be included in the BRs.

sorry for my ignorance, i'm just curious i thought the ep 10 was delayed as well. are the screencaps official? thanks.