My question would be does the soul gem disappearing mean that magical girls die at that point or just return to being normal girls?
sayaka´s demise states that they die.
I just rewatched the sequence with Madoka removing the corrupted soul gems and saw that the girls she saves from becoming witches simply disappear. I just missed that the first time through. You're correct.
It's not so much that her wish/sacrifice that bothered me (the most, anyway), but rather the fact the entire reason she died was over one person.
..Erm. Hold on.
I term 'selfless' as giving up one's happiness for another's. At the same time, I think of 'selfish' as giving up another's happiness for the sake of one's self. While Sayaka's wish meant her becoming a zombie, she still made it because she wanted the guy she liked to be happy no matter what. That was her 'intent', and I think that's really the wish she made- not that his hand would be healed, but that he would be able to be happy. And he was- she just didn't realize that his happiness didn't have much to do with her at all.
But she isn't like Mami. She has family (from what I gather) AND friends who deeply care about her, and while her life is hers and hers alone, I hate how she took little consideration of others and still made that choice. The first time around, she essentially gave up a normal life, and that alone makes me think of her as... a different kind of selfish. Perhaps 'stupid' is a better word choice. But, then again, I also saw this as Sayaka really taking on this sort of lifestyle as a way to protect her friends and family, with the wish as a sort of double dipping. Taking on that POV, it makes her fall sort of...unreal to me.
Looking back, she sort of put herself in Kamijou's shoes. He couldn't do what he loves (Play the violin), just as she couldn't bring herself to do what she loves (that is, being around him). They both had someone by them (Sayaka to Kamijou, Madoka to Sayaka) to vent and to talk to, but the difference is that Kamijou didn't seem to care as much about hurting Sayaka as she did about hurting Madoka. Kamijou seemed sort of narrow minded and helpless- I mean, I've played an instrument my whole life, and while never playing it again would lead me to a BSOD, I also realized that the reason I started playing it wasn't because I loved to hear it, but because I loved that others could here it (which sounds..pretty shallow, now that I put it into words.)
My money is that if someone reminded Kamijou played the violin in the first place, in which my money is on that he wanted to make everyone around him happy, then he wouldn't have angst'd like he did. The same with Sayaka- a confrontation, and to remind her why she wanted to protect the world- not just for Kamijou, but for, you know, EVERYONE ELSE. Partially why I hated her end so GOD DAMN MUCH.
Kriemhild Gretchen appears in true form in Timeline 2, so right off the bat you have a complete contradiction of the "Madoka is accumulating power" concept.
The ONLY thing that can be construed as an implication of Madoka becoming stronger is Kyubey oddly pointing out how she defeated Walpurgisnacht in a single attack in Timeline 4. The problem is, the actual evidence says the power difference is more likely due to the nature of Madoka's wish changing in Timeline 4. The power disparity is never brought up before that. "Gradually becoming stronger" does not mean "Retaining the same visible power level for three iterations and then evolving a doomsday weapon out of nowhere."
Quote:
Originally Posted by DasDingus
karmic debt
This is exactly what I'm talking about with the "Concepts that come out of nowhere five seconds before the ending to justify the ending" thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum
Spoiler for end:
unless I understood this wrong,the girls from the past dying (or "disapearing") instead of becoming witches doesn't seem like a whole lot happier and fluffier to me
I'm pretty sure anyone would agree that
Spoiler:
being granted a merciful death is a happier end than becoming the very thing you've given your life fighting.
I'm... probably going to have to agree with Kaijo and Klash on this. One massive grandiose wish that is effective both retrograde and anterograde. Not denying that the entire finale was a blast, but Madoka's sudden epiphany was a bit hard to swallow given how she was the very definition of a walking cloud of gloom and doom for the last 8 episodes. While her wish to change everything is a bit questionable considering how it does reveal that there may be no intrinsic limits to the entire system Inkyubeytor's race has set and that it seems no one has bothered to try and realize how to manipulate the system away from this current setup, one could probably argue that it's simply because the capacity of the wish to create such an effect is tied to the one making the wish, and only Madoka has the intrinsic power to affect a wish this big.
So yes she proves her Messiah character trait in the finale, but it still felt a bit deus ex machina given how massively powered she is. It's been proven she could practically God Mode the final boss that is Walpurgisnacht, but now with the extension that she can rewrite the entire system itself at the cost of her own human mortality. If this were equivalent exchange than that alone should prove just how massively powerful she is. For a show that was most likely grounded on Madoka trying to earn her happy/bittersweet ending against Sisyphean odds, it felt a tad bit too easy conclusion on her part. She was crucified on the altar of humanity at the last minute when other avenues could have been explored.
Not a bad ending, not an amazing one, but a very good one. Certainly doesn't really match the hefty expectations left on me by the previous 10 episodes, but it left me satisfied, so I can accept that.
Kriemhild Gretchen appears in true form in Timeline 2, so right off the bat you have a complete contradiction of the "Madoka is accumulating power" concept.
The ONLY thing that can be construed as an implication of Madoka becoming stronger is Kyubey oddly pointing out how she defeated Walpurgisnacht in a single attack in Timeline 4. The problem is, the actual evidence says the power difference is more likely due to the nature of Madoka's wish changing in Timeline 4. The power disparity is never brought up before that. "Gradually becoming stronger" does not mean "Retaining the same visible power level for three iterations and then evolving a doomsday weapon out of nowhere."
This is exactly what I'm talking about with the "Concepts that come out of nowhere five seconds before the ending to justify the ending" thing.
I'm pretty sure anyone would agree that
Spoiler:
being granted a merciful death is a happier end than becoming the very thing you've given your life fighting.
I think you need to re-watch episode 10. In timeline one where Homura came from Madoka was killed by WN and didn't turn into a witch. In timeline 2 she survives the fight but turns witch later on and in timeline 4 she was able to kill it in one shot. Killed->Survives->Survives->Oneshot Kill, I mean she was CLEARLY getting stronger every time and if you don't see this then I got nothing to say.
Kriemhild Gretchen appears in true form in Timeline 2, so right off the bat you have a complete contradiction of the "Madoka is accumulating power" concept.
The ONLY thing that can be construed as an implication of Madoka becoming stronger is Kyubey oddly pointing out how she defeated Walpurgisnacht in a single attack in Timeline 4. The problem is, the actual evidence says the power difference is more likely due to the nature of Madoka's wish changing in Timeline 4. The power disparity is never brought up before that. "Gradually becoming stronger" does not mean "Retaining the same visible power level for three iterations and then evolving a doomsday weapon out of nowhere."
This is exactly what I'm talking about with the "Concepts that come out of nowhere five seconds before the ending to justify the ending" thing.
I'm pretty sure anyone would agree that
Spoiler:
being granted a merciful death is a happier end than becoming the very thing you've given your life fighting.
While the ending settles a lot of questions, it seems like it will spawn an even larger amount of debates.
Spoiler for Ending:
As for me, I am quite happy with the ending, and arguably it is a good one for everyone, including Madoka. She is now truly useful for everyone.
Not sure if this one has been answered. When did the conversation between Madoka, Mami, and Kyoko when Madoka finally contracts took place? Another timeline?
I hope that we will also get an answer one day on whether the 1 month delay was purely done to align the air date with Good Friday.
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmet-kun
Spoiler for @Kaijo:
It's not so much that her wish/sacrifice that bothered me (the most, anyway), but rather the fact the entire reason she died was over one person.
..Erm. Hold on.
I term 'selfless' as giving up one's happiness for another's. At the same time, I think of 'selfish' as giving up another's happiness for the sake of one's self. While Sayaka's wish meant her becoming a zombie, she still made it because she wanted the guy she liked to be happy no matter what. That was her 'intent', and I think that's really the wish she made- not that his hand would be healed, but that he would be able to be happy. And he was- she just didn't realize that his happiness didn't have much to do with her at all.
But she isn't like Mami. She has family (from what I gather) AND friends who deeply care about her, and while her life is hers and hers alone, I hate how she took little consideration of others and still made that choice. The first time around, she essentially gave up a normal life, and that alone makes me think of her as... a different kind of selfish. Perhaps 'stupid' is a better word choice. But, then again, I also saw this as Sayaka really taking on this sort of lifestyle as a way to protect her friends and family, with the wish as a sort of double dipping. Taking on that POV, it makes her fall sort of...unreal to me.
Looking back, she sort of put herself in Kamijou's shoes. He couldn't do what he loves (Play the violin), just as she couldn't bring herself to do what she loves (that is, being around him). They both had someone by them (Sayaka to Kamijou, Madoka to Sayaka) to vent and to talk to, but the difference is that Kamijou didn't seem to care as much about hurting Sayaka as she did about hurting Madoka. Kamijou seemed sort of narrow minded and helpless- I mean, I've played an instrument my whole life, and while never playing it again would lead me to a BSOD, I also realized that the reason I started playing it wasn't because I loved to hear it, but because I loved that others could here it (which sounds..pretty shallow, now that I put it into words.)
My money is that if someone reminded Kamijou played the violin in the first place, in which my money is on that he wanted to make everyone around him happy, then he wouldn't have angst'd like he did. The same with Sayaka- a confrontation, and to remind her why she wanted to protect the world- not just for Kamijou, but for, you know, EVERYONE ELSE. Partially why I hated her end so GOD DAMN MUCH.
There is that; when you give up your life, there are others who will be affected. But ultimately, we all die someday, and wanting someone to stay alive is selfish. WE will be affected if they die, because WE will feel sad.
Ultimately, our life is ours alone, and we have to choose what to do with it. Not saying it's an easy or clear-cut choice, but it's not a simple good or bad one, either. Soldiers in wartime choose to give up their lives to save their comrades, despite having friends and family back home. Should we tell them not to jump on that grenade, then?
It's not an easy choice. It is, however, a selfless one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeniselv
other that the karmic debt theres also what kyubee tells madoka, that she could get very powerful depending on her wish.
The problem is (and I get what Hagoshod is saying), is that was this timeline. Even as far back as timeline 1, it was shown that Madoka can take down Walpurgis alone. Watching what Homura was doing just now in ep 11, it really does feel like Madoka had the same power all along.
In episode 2, Kyube just says she's special, and then elaborates later on that she has massive amounts of power, but doesn't know why. But none of the timelines showed her getting any stronger. They showed her being the exact same strength. So regardless of explanation, it does feel like a bit of an asspull for her to suddenly go super Goddess WMD level.
Part of the problem also, is that we never saw what Madoka wished for in any of those other timelines, so it is hard to place an appropriate mark on just how much the wish affects the power level.
But I get the feeling that the main problem, is that they just didn't show it well enough. There is only 12 episodes, so obviously there is a time issue to show everything. The series would have been well served by stretching it out a couple more episodes, to properly show more of Homura's timeloops, and do a better job of showing Madoka getting more powerful. However, when she already has the power to single-handily take down Walpurgis, well, it's harder to accurately show a power increase beyond that.
It makes for an interesting data point. People were talking about selfishness and selflessness awhile ago, with respect to Sayaka's wish. The idea that she was selfish, came from the idea that she only wished Kamijou's hand healed because she wanted a chance with him. I was one of the ones that argued that she gave up almost her entire life to heal his hand so he could have a chance at happiness, no matter how much it might hurt her.
So, here we are again, and she chooses to die to keep his hand healed. If she truly were selfish, she might choose not to do that in order to still have a chance with him. "If I can't be with him, then I won't heal his hand" kind of thing.
So while it might seem idiotic from one angle, I'd have to say it was fairly noble from another angle. While I personally don't believe in true altruism, believing instead that every decision and act has a selfish component, even I have to admit that's as pretty damn selfless as you're going to get.
We can argue that giving up your life so that someone's hand can be healed, might be stupid. But from one point of view, Kamijou saw his life as over because he couldn't do what he loved. She may very well have died to save his life.
Although, given her sacrifices in the show, I really wanted a better end for her, to see her end up with Kamijou. But, too much author meddling means she's doomed.
Well I'll be! It would seem we've found something we can agree with Kaijo...Sayaka sacrifice while may seem unnecessary by some really need to consider the fact that she really and truly loved Kamijou. It was this love that was the bases of her wish from the very beginning so naturally Sayaka would never do anything selfish to Kamijou such as deny him his happiness because she didn't get what she may have secretly wanted.
While the ending settles a lot of questions, it seems like it will spawn an even larger amount of debates.
Spoiler for Ending:
As for me, I am quite happy with the ending, and arguably it is a good one for everyone, including Madoka. She is now truly useful for everyone.
Not sure if this one has been answered. When did the conversation between Madoka, Mami, and Kyoko when Madoka finally contracts took place? Another timeline?
I hope that we will also get an answer one day on whether the 1 month delay was purely done to align the air date with Good Friday.
The ONLY thing that can be construed as an implication of Madoka becoming stronger is Kyubey oddly pointing out how she defeated Walpurgisnacht in a single attack in Timeline 4. The problem is, the actual evidence says the power difference is more likely due to the nature of Madoka's wish changing in Timeline 4. The power disparity is never brought up before that. "Gradually becoming stronger" does not mean "Retaining the same visible power level for three iterations and then evolving a doomsday weapon out of nowhere."
Spoiler:
It's never explicitly mentioned but you can infer that Madoka is becoming more powerful based on the events of each timeline in episode 10. Timeline 1: Madoka dies fighting the Walpurgis. Timeline 2: Madoka defeats the Walpurgis but immediately becomes a witch because she used up all her magic. Timeline 3: She defeats the Walpurgis. Homura has time to kill Madoka before Madoka becomes a witch. Timeline 4: Madoka one-shots the Walpurgis. The fourth one seems like a fairly large jump but there's reason to believe that she was building up as time went on.
Quote:
This is exactly what I'm talking about with the "Concepts that come out of nowhere five seconds before the ending to justify the ending" thing
I don't agree that this came out of nowhere, nor that it was particularly close to the ending. We knew that Madoka had the potential to be more powerful than any other girl but we didn't know why. There had to be some kind of why behind this and I don't feel that karmic debt is any more arbitrary than any number of possible explanations. As for the timing, this couldn't just be revealed to us early on because we needed to see Homura's plight first. It was still revealed with a good 30+ minutes of show remaining so I think that your characterization of the reveal relative to the overall plot is misleading. I'm forced to wonder if you'd make this argument had 11 and 12 aired a week apart.
Okay, finally watched the subbed version. Time for some thoughts.
First off, that was a nice and clean ending, with small ambiguous stuff left to ponder when you're done watching. I didn't feel anything was contrived or unexplainable. Second, Gen....you're a bastard. I love you. Thank you for the gift of a moving story with a heartfelt ending.
So, Madoka becomes a goddess eh? Seems about right. I'm sure her final words to Homura about meeting again are literal...she just earned her powers and she's got a lot of work to do, time and space are infinite y'know.
I loved the wish. It was pretty close to how I surmised things would be resolved, and I loved that Kyubey was forced to eat it. YEAH! I loved his reaction: THIS IS TREASON! It's funny how true the interviews were: Kyubey was Kyubey until the very end.
Mami and Kyoko are saved. Not bad. I suspect the reason we don't see them in the end is because Homura has become a psuedo avatar of Madoka, basically a "mega" Magical Girl with few repercussions. Her limitless drive makes her the perfect weapon to defend humanity against grief and despair for all time. While Madoka is eradicating Witches, she's cleaning up the universe. Nice.
I think the new system, where Magical Girls "disappear" when they exhaust their magic, is something the audience are meant to interpret how we see fit. Some of us might believe they're gone for good, some of us might see them being reborn or sent to heaven, etc. I think being reborn is the route I'll go in believing their fates. Madoka and Sayaka's final meeting didn't seem all that "final".
I know some will rage at Sayaka's decision, but to me it felt right. It's what she really wanted, what she came to terms with. She settled her regrets by facing her true self. A fitting way for her character to exit the stage.
The music and animation were gorgeous. There were some animation errors, but I was so immersed I hardly noticed them.
If anyone does think this ending is bittersweet, consider this: Madoka was supposed to be erased completely from mortal existence. Clearly this is not the case, even if Madoka has become something beyond human. Also consider that the story deals heavily in alternate universes/timelines. Madoka didn't become a goddess in all of them, and the chances a mortal Madoka exists in most of them are extremely large.
Simply stated, the story ends in a way that you can pull your own hopes and dreams from it, and feel rewarded for investing your time in it. It's a rare feat, anime or otherwise.
Wow, I'm truly satisfied with how the series ended.
Though to answer the question of people saying that Madoka's epiphany and power came out of no where, it didn't. It was said multiple times that the strength of the magical girl depends on their wish, and that Madoka had the ability to become the strongest magical girl, and therefore the strongest witch. Realizing that Madoka's wish would amount to her becoming a god was really just putting two and two together, with the simple question "what kind of wish could turn someone into a god, while simultaneously ridding the world of witches?". Besides that it was explained that through Homura's interference Madoka has experienced things and learned the full truth behind Kyuubey and the incubators, before she even formed a contract with him, giving her time to actually seriously contemplate what she wanted to wish for.
So by the time episode 11-12 role around Madoka has essentially learned all there is to know about witches, magical girls, and the incubators, plus she has been given the time to think about possible loopholes to her wish.
Am I the only one that was surprised the Walpurgus night didn't turn out to be Homura? I'm sure I'm not the only one who put giant clockwork-engine-witch and Time-mage together.
I agree with the disappointing feeling seeing the (though kind of expected it) deus-ex-machina, not in the way that it was done, but moreso in the fact that it's being done more and more often and has become quite stale IMO.
My only issue with the ending is that the inhabitants of the earth remained nearly completely unchanged even though the universe went through a literal phase shift. I understand why they did it, but the sci-fi obsessed geek in me just knows all too well how greatly something like that would have affected causality /endnerdrant
TLR version: Anyone else want to see 12 episodes of Homura fighting bakemono/oni/youkai now? *raises hand*
I'm having trouble understanding why people are saying that Sayaka had a choice in the matter of deciding Kamijou's fate. The impression I got was that Sayaka had no choice but to follow along that particular line as her fate to become a witch was inevitable and Madoka simply gave her a relatively happy ending by allowing her to not have to live in regret and despair as a witch. There was no selflessness on her part. She was simply given that ending by Madoka.
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Courage is not the absence of fear. It is the knowledge of what to be and not to be afraid of.
Am I the only one that was surprised the Walpurgus night didn't turn out to be Homura? I'm sure I'm not the only one who put giant clockwork-engine-witch and Time-mage together.
The fact that in the first timeline Homura wasn't even a Magical Girl when the Walpurgis showed up plus the fact that she fights the Walpurgis in all the subsequent timelines means it would have required some serious plot gymnastics to pull that one off.
I didn't see any examination of this in the thread although I haven't read the entire thing. Is it confirmed that, under the new system, once magical girls use up the energy in their soul gem they immediately die? From the montage of Madoka going back and healing witches in the past it looked like she was removing the soul gem and turning them back into normal girls. Kyubey then says that once a soul gem is used up it disappears rather than becoming this witch thing Homura claims used to exist. My question would be does the soul gem disappearing mean that magical girls die at that point or just return to being normal girls?
Spoiler:
disappear though they are smiling. If you look at the place of where the MG's are dying exempt for one. They are all in isolated place. Maybe to make it no one suffers after they turn into witch. Madoka takes away the darkness of the soul gem with her and let the MG's rest in peace which is better than turning into witch which will hurt others someday.
Hmm... Well, at least it finally ends.
To be honest, I wasn't really that happy with the end, since in the end, Madoka still becomes a magical girl and it is one of those "And our fight continues!"-type of end.
However, despite the end not being that good, it was still a very solid and satisfying end. And that is good.
In general, I just guess I got my hopes up on an epic ending, and just got a good ending and am feeling disappointed about it.
I guess one complaint is that the whole stuff like the mental tea party and the drama involving the teacher and parent didn't end up making me feel much at all. I guess it is better to have it than not though... I don't care either way.
It's just the way this story is and it is a fantasy, but I have to laugh a little at using historical figures like Jeanne. 'Cause it ain't true!
But anyways and all of that, I think it was a go... Wait, might as well wait until the final impressions thread comes out.
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R version: Anyone else want to see 12 episodes of Homura fighting bakemono/oni/youkai now? *raises hand*
