[Anime-only] Naruto Shippuden Episode 211 Discussion

[HasuMasu]

I didn't know you could...turn one off?

inconsistency-no-jutsu

[mrShady]

What happens when overusing mangekyou sharingan?
That's your answer

[Cael]

Originally Posted by Ardeau

I'm going to walk like this now everywhere I go... behind someone, with a really creepy face, like I'm stalking them. Oh yeah!

[Kallen4life]

Run, danzo, run

[Vorenus]

I personally did not care much about Danzo's flashback at the very end of the episode... I mean, just the fact of him having been friends with Hiruzen is supposed to make us feel pity for him?
Where was he when his precious Hiruzen got killed by his partner-in-crime, Orochimaru? That was a bit too easy and cheesy...

In the end, he always was a coward, hiding behind the curtains, stealing other people's abilities because he was too uncertain about his own, etc...
The flashbacks shows that he fought this battle just the way he lived... like a coward and it caused his demise...

The highlight of the episode for me was certainly Sasuke not hesitating to pierce Danzo through Karin...
Not so long ago, he considered her a comrade and even tried his best to rid her of the Amaterasu flames when she was hit by Killer's Bee... All of this really happened not too long ago, so this development is significant, although not really unexpected and rather a logical continuation of his descend to hell...

Karin mentioned several times that Sasuke's chakra was becoming darker and colder and that he was becoming someone else...
Somehow, she seemed uncomfortable about it, yet fascinated by it... it should have ringed a bell to an exceptionally sensitive sensory-type like her.
She just didn't understand that this coldness would have consequences for her sooner or later and she paid the hard price for it.

Sasuke may not realize it yet but he has done the exact thing as Danzo: sacrificing people to achieve his own objectives...

He already had reached the point of no-return some time ago, but killing your own comrades and telling them is all their fault is really far beyond anything he has done.

I hope that Naruto gets to know about this and think hard about whether Sasuke can be saved...
Aligning with Akatsuki could have been a mistake, or Sasuke being manipulated, and the capture of Killer-Bee failed, but he has recently killed a lot of people directly unrelated to his grudge (Samurais, possibly Karin) and to someone with an as high sense of justice as Naruto, it should mean something and yet another internal logic conflict for him to resolve...

[KaiokenAttack]

Originally Posted by Discerptor

Danzo's speech regarding the difference between him and Hiruzen was exactly what made me annoyed that the English dub decided to translate "Root" as "Foundation."

It was far worse translated than in the manga. I remember this good translation... "I am the roots hidden in the shadows, you're the leafs bathing in the sun."

Yet it was so funny how Hiruzen was made Hokage… "I go die now. Tomorrow you'll be Hokage."

Originally Posted by Vorenus

I personally did not care much about Danzo's flashback at the very end of the episode... I mean, just the fact of him having been friends with Hiruzen is supposed to make us feel pity for him?
Where was he when his precious Hiruzen got killed by his partner-in-crime, Orochimaru? That was a bit too easy and cheesy...

He had not been created back then. If he had been created, why should Jiraiya look for Tsunade? Why should both Jiraiya and Kakashi be considered Hokage? Why should Jiraiya look for Tsunade? Why take the time and risk leaving Konoha unprotected finding a successor by chance?
It's clear that he hadn't been created back then. Back then, Itachi was the killer and Jiraiya was even more powerful. Orochimaru was the strongest and could conquer whole nations and murder the Kage.
The powerlevels were something else in part one.

Originally Posted by Vorenus

In the end, he always was a coward, hiding behind the curtains, stealing other people's abilities because he was too uncertain about his own, etc...
The flashbacks shows that he fought this battle just the way he lived... like a coward and it caused his demise...

Well, he was indeed nothing special before he got all these Sharingan. I wonder why he didn't just control Hiruzen if his awesome technique was so awesome, yes… being able to control powerful people, even Madara, even the Kages and other people. A fearsome technique. Why not control the Hokage and use him as a puppet? The answer has been given before: He had not been created, not mentioned, nothing. He was a deux ex machina added to the story.
Someone to fill a gap before Naruto possibly becomes Hokage, someone to pose a threat, someone to be killed by Sasuke because it would really matter if Sasuke killed Kakashi or Shikamaru for example…it's easier for Kishi to create and introduce new characters who can be killed. Danzou was to Sasuke what Nagato was to Naruto.

Originally Posted by Vorenus

The highlight of the episode for me was certainly Sasuke not hesitating to pierce Danzo through Karin...
Not so long ago, he considered her a comrade and even tried his best to rid her of the Amaterasu flames when she was hit by Killer's Bee... All of this really happened not too long ago, so this development is significant, although not really unexpected and rather a logical continuation of his descend to hell...

Sasuke never considered Karin a teammate. He even told her that she was replaceable even when he was recruiting her. He just decided for these guys as a support to his own power. Maybe there have been others but that doesn't matter because they were not introduced in part one either. They were prepared for the various situations when we witnessed them supporting Sasuke.

Originally Posted by Vorenus

Karin mentioned several times that Sasuke's chakra was becoming darker and colder and that he was becoming someone else...
Somehow, she seemed uncomfortable about it, yet fascinated by it... it should have ringed a bell to an exceptionally sensitive sensory-type like her.
She just didn't understand that this coldness would have consequences for her sooner or later and she paid the hard price for it.


Sasuke may not realize it yet but he has done the exact thing as Danzo: sacrificing people to achieve his own objectives...

He already had reached the point of no-return some time ago, but killing your own comrades and telling them is all their fault is really far beyond anything he has done.

Well, she was scared but at the same time she is a total bitch and would like to be laid by Sasuke anytime. She considered Sasuke a comrade and thus felt safe while he was threatening others.

Originally Posted by Vorenus

I hope that Naruto gets to know about this and think hard about whether Sasuke can be saved...
Aligning with Akatsuki could have been a mistake, or Sasuke being manipulated, and the capture of Killer-Bee failed, but he has recently killed a lot of people directly unrelated to his grudge (Samurais, possibly Karin) and to someone with an as high sense of justice as Naruto, it should mean something and yet another internal logic conflict for him to resolve...

Naruto will never think hard about saving Sasuke. It is about time you start thinking about it.
Naruto was the very first victim of Sasuke. He was the first to fight Sasuke after he had left the village.
Naruto could have been killed by Sasuke's chidori because he was pierced by it. Naruto later fought Sasuke again and if it wasn't for Sai, he could be dead by now, too.

[HayashiTakara]

Did anyone else not know what Sarutobi's first name was before this episode/chapter? I know I didn't

[Kafriel]

Yeah I remember asking that in the Q&A someday, iirc James had replied that his name was revealed in an earlier databook but never actually mentioned in the anime.

[neshru]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

Yeah I remember asking that in the Q&A someday, iirc James had replied that his name was revealed in an earlier databook but never actually mentioned in the anime.

It was mentioned in a filler episode (by Danzou himself), 179.

[Spectacular_Insanity]

Don't get me wrong, I still think Sasuke is a bastard, but you have to admit he's clever. And hostages only work when the other person cares if they live or die.

Just like in the manga, I found Danzou's death scene very poetic, and oddly tragic.

Poor Karin. Too bad I don't feel pity for her at all for her willingness to follow the orders of a complete asshole.

[molitar]

Was this episode suppose to make us feel something for evil Danzou? Sasuke revenge was ok but to kill a comrade means he has turned evil also.. No better than Danzou. Danzou destroyed an entire clan that was used as the police force for their clan just to rob them of their eyes for power.. How much eviler can you be? Wipe out an entire village clan for power.

[Kallen4life]

well Itachi & Madara did the wiping out and that was because they were planning a coup (in Itachi's case) .. I presume Danzo collected the eyes later from the corpses

[AuroraFlash]

Originally Posted by molitar

Was this episode suppose to make us feel something for evil Danzou? Sasuke revenge was ok but to kill a comrade means he has turned evil also.. No better than Danzou. Danzou destroyed an entire clan that was used as the police force for their clan just to rob them of their eyes for power.. How much eviler can you be? Wipe out an entire village clan for power.

The moment Sasuke defeated the evil enemy he himself became the evil enemy... twisted.

[Vorenus]

Originally Posted by KaiokenAttack

He had not been created back then. If he had been created, why should Jiraiya look for Tsunade? Why should both Jiraiya and Kakashi be considered Hokage? Why should Jiraiya look for Tsunade? Why take the time and risk leaving Konoha unprotected finding a successor by chance?

I understand this argument and in fact was expecting it. It is true and you're definitely right about this if we look at things from a point of view external from the story. However, we're watching a show that tells a story, and we have to consider this story and not the "making of" of this story when considering the events that happened in said story.

The sad fact is that Danzo's sudden existence created a lot of "plot holes", which are hard to explain given certain events of the story that occured thus far.

I agree with you that Kishimoto probably did not even think of Danzo's character yet during the Oro's invasion arc, but from the story's storyline, Danzo was already alive for a long time. The fact that there is no explanation as to why he never interfered while he had dozen of opportunities to realize his ambitions in a more heroic and legitimate manner just seems like poor writing. Kishimoto could have given explanations to Danzo's absence (like he could have been travelling, like Jiraiya was, on a secret mission, etc), but for all we know, all he did was leading a shadow organization underground, all of this while never really leaving the village...

More recently, and after he actually made an actual appearance in the story, he didn't interfere during the Pain invasion arc while everyone, from elite Jounins like Kakashi, to mere Genins like Konohamaru fought their best.
Danzo, on the other hand, was hiding and letting the village he supposedly loves so much gets destroyed, which does not make sense and can only be logically explained, "in-story", by a certain lack of confidence in his own abilities, to not say cowardice, like I already wrote in the episode 210 thread.

Well, he was indeed nothing special before he got all these Sharingan. I wonder why he didn't just control Hiruzen if his awesome technique was so awesome, yes… being able to control powerful people, even Madara, even the Kages and other people. A fearsome technique. Why not control the Hokage and use him as a puppet? The answer has been given before: He had not been created, not mentioned, nothing. He was a deux ex machina added to the story.

Indeed. He could have used this "Geass"-like ability to attain the Hokage position much faster and manipulated the other villages' Kage as well, by encountering them one after the others, so to let time for his ability to recover, which would have ended the potential conflict between the major villages that he is so concerned about, like most other Kages...
I am not really too sure why this ability was introduced given it did not have so much importance in the story after all (and probably won't, seeing that Suishi's eye seems definitely lost at this point), and just contributed to create more inconsistency about Danzo's path to power.

Sasuke never considered Karin a teammate. He even told her that she was replaceable even when he was recruiting her. He just decided for these guys as a support to his own power. Maybe there have been others but that doesn't matter because they were not introduced in part one either. They were prepared for the various situations when we witnessed them supporting Sasuke.

I don't agree: there was this short flashback about Sasuke remembering of Team 7 just before he saved Karin from the Amaterasu... It was the first time we had seen Sasuke softening a little bit for a long time.

After all, he could have said the same "You got hit by a burning tentacle... you get what you deserve, you useless bitch...", but he didn't and tried his best to save her, even at the expense of using his Mangekyo Sharingan, which Sasuke is fully aware of the consequences of overusing it.

Of course, he wanted to confirm the extend of his power and whether or not he could extinguish the flames, but back then, he clearly seemed to care about his team, as evidenced by this quick reminiscence of the Team 7's days.

Of course, he knew very well he still needed Karin's ability to track Danzo but a sensory type Ninja is never a useless addition in a team, which is probably why most Kages have one in their personal team.

Of course, Sasuke is a Ninja, and he knows for a fact that Ninjas do die, so he knew they could be replaced, but it is entirely something else to kill them by himself when other solutions existed...
He could have used Amaterasu, and remove the flames from Karin once more if they propagated to her as well, or aim for the Danzo's head with the Chidori Sword... Danzo was so weakened and slow, that it is not like he could have avoided it.

Like Karin said several times, Sasuke was changing, and the result of these changes is that he did something he would not have done even a few days ago (the fight with Killer Bee and the Kage Summit do not seem so far from each other, in the series' calendar).

Well, she was scared but at the same time she is a total bitch and would like to be laid by Sasuke anytime. She considered Sasuke a comrade and thus felt safe while he was threatening others.

Yeah, and knowing she could sense his change in Chakra intensity all along, it should have been like a huge alarm sign for her, which is where she messed up...

Naruto will never think hard about saving Sasuke. It is about time you start thinking about it.
Naruto was the very first victim of Sasuke. He was the first to fight Sasuke after he had left the village.
Naruto could have been killed by Sasuke's chidori because he was pierced by it. Naruto later fought Sasuke again and if it wasn't for Sai, he could be dead by now, too.

That was not my point: there is a real difference between how Naruto regards his own life, and how he regards the one of others...
Naruto is the type who would gladly give his life to save somebody else, even Sasuke... not necessarily from death, but from the path he has chosen.
What I am saying is that there is going to be conflict for Naruto to solve between his ideals of justice.

If Naruto gets to know about what Sasuke did to Karin, one of his active team-mates, it will mean a lot to him, as it violates one of his most important values, that dates back from the very first episodes of part one with Kakashi's speak about Ninja not caring about comrades being scum, etc...

So far, Naruto could find an explanation, and thus some kind of excuse, to every thing that Sasuke had done: Sasuke wanting to get revenge on Itachi was understandable, Sasuke's hate of Konoha after discovering the truth was also understandable, joining Akatsuki could have been the result of a manipulation, but killing his own team-mate should be a big "no-no" for Naruto's ideals.

I know that Naruto is often irrational when it comes to Sasuke, but I believe he still is the kind to place his ideals above his friendship and that it will be hard for Naruto to consider Sasuke as a friend after that...

He will still try to save him in his own way, but Naruto will have an harder time to find him excuses and justifications if he gets to know what happened with Karin, as it is a major violation of Naruto's ideals.
Sasuke killing the targets of his revenge was one thing, as all of his targets so far had their hands clearly dirty (Orochimaru, Itachi, Danzô)... but killing your own team-mates that are in comparison, rather innocent, is entirely something else...

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Vorenus

More recently, and after he actually made an actual appearance in the story, he didn't interfere during the Pain invasion arc while everyone, from elite Jounins like Kakashi, to mere Genins like Konohamaru fought their best.
Danzo, on the other hand, was hiding and letting the village he supposedly loves so much gets destroyed, which does not make sense and can only be logically explained, "in-story", by a certain lack of confidence in his own abilities, to not say cowardice, like I already wrote in the episode 210 thread.

That's actually the one instance that was explained, he purposely didn't intervene against Pain because he wanted Tsunade crushed physically and politically and the village weakened so he could be its savior. But like everything he did in his life he messed up because he obviously didn't plan on Nagato to be so powerful that he nearly ended Konoha for good.

If Naruto gets to know about what Sasuke did to Karin [...]

Naruto let Nagato be after he killed Jiraiya, Kakashi, frog Yoda, thousands of others and destroyed his village and you think he can't live with Sasuke stabbing a girl he doesn't even know?

[Spectacular_Insanity]

Originally Posted by Vorenus

I don't agree: there was this short flashback about Sasuke remembering of Team 7 just before he saved Karin from the Amaterasu... It was the first time we had seen Sasuke softening a little bit for a long time.

Not really. He just needed Karin for the time being. Even if Taka reminded Sasuke of Team 7, all that sentimentality goes out the window when one of Sasuke's enemies are in front of him, or if one of his allies are in his way. You'll see in the next episode how much those memories meant to him. That is, not at all.

Karin was to Sasuke an expendable tool. He only saved her because he needed her abilities as a sensor and healer/chakra replenisher. If that wasn't obvious by him stabbing her only moments after she had saved his life multiple times with her weird healing ability, then I suppose nothing will.

Same thing for the others. Just tools for Sasuke to use, like a kunai or exploding tag. The only person Sasuke really cares about anymore is dead (referring to Itachi). Even Madara doesn't really mean anything to Sasuke... he'll cooperate as long as he thinks Madara provides him power and opportunity to exact his revenge. If you'll notice how Sasuke has never once looked at Madara as if he were a relative (even though he technically is a clansman), then you should understand what I mean.

[Vorenus]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Naruto let Nagato be after he killed Jiraiya, Kakashi, frog Yoda, thousands of others and destroyed his village and you think he can't live with Sasuke stabbing a girl he doesn't even know?

Naruto had already stopped Nagato/Pain at that time. He clearly was not a threat anymore, and it is not like he would have let him go back to his village had he not sacrificed himself.
Naruto clearly said he couldn't forgive Nagato, even if he understood his reasons, but that it didn't mean it allowed him to give in to revenge as well.

Naruto could always forgive Sasuke at this point. He didn't do anything that was irredeemable based on Naruto's sense of justice... now, killing your comrades is...
He will still want to "save him", as in "get him back on the right path", but can he really consider him as a friend again? If the story followed Naruto's morals he has shown so far, probably not, or not until he redeems himself in a way or another...

Originally Posted by Spectacular_Insanity

Not really. He just needed Karin for the time being. Even if Taka reminded Sasuke of Team 7, all that sentimentality goes out the window when one of Sasuke's enemies are in front of him, or if one of his allies are in his way. You'll see in the next episode how much those memories meant to him. That is, not at all.

How do you explain the flashback then during Killer Bee's fight? You can't just discard it as if it didn't happen. It was in both the anime and the manga. Even if it was for just a short moment, I don't know how to explain it than him genuinely wanting to save her at that time.

Regarding next episode's, Sasuke already said he decided to broke all the ties with his past back at the Valley of the End in Part1, so it is nothing new and surprising he would say so again and think of them as hindrances... he had to forget those feelings to gain power, but it doesn't mean these feelings never existed...
When he fought Gaara in part 1 in the forest and tried to protect Sakura, he seemed to care... but obviously, he can't admit it anymore and has moved on for a long time...

What I mean, is that, for a short moment during the fight against Killer-Bee, he felt this way towards his Taka comrades, and that it proved he still had a little bit of kindness in him, which is now completely gone...

Karin was to Sasuke an expendable tool. He only saved her because he needed her abilities as a sensor and healer/chakra replenisher. If that wasn't obvious by him stabbing her only moments after she had saved his life multiple times with her weird healing ability, then I suppose nothing will.

Again, I was talking about the Sasuke as he was during Killer Bee's fight... not as he is now... as I clearly said, he changed a lot and Karin had all the time and means to notice it and realize it was getting way too dangerous to be around someone like him.

There is also a big difference about recruiting someone for their skills and considering them as tools, and killing them by himself when other solutions existed, and that shows how much he changed, in a really short amount of time, which is my point...

[Neosovereign]

I can't believe no one has brought this up.
Who says Sasuke actually killed Karin. He told her to not move, and specifically targeted Danzo's heart.
This tells me he might have hit her in a spot that shouldn't kill her. I mean, that is still a dick move, but it isn't death. Plus Sakura apparently gets there in the next episode, she is probably going to heal her.

[miroku2192]

Originally Posted by Neosovereign

I can't believe no one has brought this up.
Who says Sasuke actually killed Karin. He told her to not move, and specifically targeted Danzo's heart.
This tells me he might have hit her in a spot that shouldn't kill her. I mean, that is still a dick move, but it isn't death. Plus Sakura apparently gets there in the next episode, she is probably going to heal her.

The most important take-away from that scene was how Sasuke ended using Karin. He stabbed right through her to hit Danzo. Even if Sakura comes to "heal" her next episode, there is no way Sasuke could've predicted that she would. Not to mention, he puts the blame on her, saying "Well you got yourself caught, so you're no good to me".

Wind back to the beginning when we saw Sasuke try desperately to control amaterasu from hurting her, that Sasuke wouldn't have done the same (meaning he probably wouldn't have stabbed right through her as well).

[zeko]

Originally Posted by Ardeau

True. But i liked it.

sasuke "where's my money danzo?"