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Old 2011-07-20, 14:48   Link #14921
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
That is true.
However, I was trying to give Obama a pass on this considering that the Libyan rebels are backed by Al Qaeda.
That's why I was pointing out the Contras as freedom fighters verses just plain organized crime like the Mexican Cartels.

Nevertheless, no matter how you slice it, the BATFE has been engaging in unethical and criminal behavior for many decades now (since 1968 and the NFA of that year) and they need to be abolished.
1. Al Qaeda did not start the rebellion against Gaddifay. Saying AL Qaeda supports the Libyan rebels makes the Libyan rebel the same as the Contra is like saying since Muslim brotherhood supported the Egyptian uprising then the Egyptian uprising supports terrorism. You are stretching this so thin you can see through it.

2. Obama has not to my knowledge say "I can't remember" regarding this matter

3. To my knowledge no one in the Obama administration has been try and convicted of lying to congress over this matter.

4. You forgot to mention the Iran-Contra affair has 2 parts. Support for the Contra and Selling Arms to Iran. How much do you want to bet that some of those arm that were sold to Iran eventually made their way to terrorist group that were used kill Americans?
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Old 2011-07-20, 15:23   Link #14922
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
To an American it is true. And our own Government acknowledges such thinking as well, based on the extent the Government will go to protect its' citizens abroad.
And you think this some are more equal than others appraoch is okay? Ever wondered why the USA is a target of international terror?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
Sorry, but stricter gun laws than we have on the books are not the answer. We already have thousands of gun laws in existence. Enforcement of those current laws is far more realistic in keeping people who don't have the right to guns away from them, than putting more restrictions on the average citizen.

Infact, I'm waiting for more cases to hit the Supreme Court to destroy some of the current Gun Laws that I view as Unconstitutional.
If we were talking about common sense decissions, I would agree with you. But we are talking about political decissions here. Politicians cannot enforce laws, therefore you will never find this approach on their TODO list. What they can do however, is introducing laws...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
The Contras were rebels trying to overthrow a dictator.
You know, like what Obama is doing with the rebels in Libya.
We're trying to support freedom fighters.
I think you are mixing something up here. Idealism + patriotism + propaganda != real politcs. The people in Nicaragua and Iran were just strategic investment - a little cruel, but with the intention of securing the US-american influence in the region.

Here a short example for american real politics (without the idealism, patriotism and propaganda riffraff):

Once the iranian Shah was a friend of the USA, because he kept the USSR influenced countries under control because of his military, which was thanks to US weapons exports not merely the 5th largest of the world but also very well equiped.
That the Shah (dictatorship, not democracy) had to enslave his own people to pay for this huge military was okay with the USA.
Then came Ayatolla Kohmenei and freed the irians (well freeing is a little bit of an exageration, he transformed the secular dictatorship into an religous dictatorship). Since the USA backed the Shah, the new regime was not exactly america friendly, and a new arch enemy was born.
To counteract this, the american strategy was to uparm another hopeful dictator of its time - Saddam Hussein. The deal was, when he attacks iran and topples their government, he can keep the northern oil wells. Saddam basically a fair business partner attacked iran (gulf war I). Gassing kurds to solve some internal conflicts was also tolerable at this time.
However, the war went on for too long, huge losses on both sides. Saddam realized this approach is too costly. He knew a better place to get oil - Kuwait. While a war against iran was perfectly okay with the US, a war against their own oil suppliers was a very bad idea. And suddenly a new arch enemy was born. Now Iraq and Iran were on the black list.
At about this time the USSR was "helping" their comrades in Afghanistan to seize control of the country. In order to counter this, the US recruited religious zealots to fight for the holy cause - which roughly translates into fighting against russian troops in Afghanistan. Among them Al Qaida, at the time the "freedom fighters" of their time in Afghanistan. After the russians were beaten, Al Qaida turned against the USA, because they basically figured out, that were just misused. Their holy mission just a clever US strategy to regain influence in the region.
Desillusioned about the true intentions of the USA, Al Qaida began to become anti american... and another arch enemy was born.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Drug Cartels aren't freedom fighters, they're organized criminals, and that's the difference.
So whats Al Qaida and the Taliban then? If they are criminals was never an issue for US policies. The only important thing is that the fighters are directly or indirectly supporting american interests. Freedom fighters, haha...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
It wasn't a matter of whose life was worth more, it was a matter of trying to help people in the case of the Contras,...
to help promote american interests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
...verses a rogue US agency trying to justify its existence by selling to criminals who use terroristic methods.
which is not exactly out of the norm for american foreign politcs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
ATF was trying to create a problem(sell assault rifles to criminals), to offer a solution (more gun control), to further their agenda (a larger budget for their agency to enforce the new laws).
The only thing that bugs you is that this agency was operating so closely to the US border. And their screwing up (which is not uncommon for US agency's foreign aproaches - see Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan) has consequences that actually touch the USA. While this is not new (see 9/11), it is admittedly undesirable. But I have this feeling you are against this agency for the completely wrong reasons (your egomanical ones).


Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
I also don't see this as a "right-left" issue.
Many Democrats own military style handguns and rifles in this country.
Well I talked about so called core competencies of parties. And I think we can agree that you can derive a left side/right side difference here very clearly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Indeed, and that is troubling. Alexander Tytler once wrote:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury.

"From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising them the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship."

This is pretty much exactly what we're seeing... though I think times have changed a bit. In his day we would have seen a dictatorship. In our day, we'll see 80s-cyberpunk style megacorps.
Which is a twisted form of "selective" democracy. As a stockholder the more stocks (money) you own the more influence you have in this "selective" democracy (where your voting power is measured by your wealth).

Last edited by Jinto; 2011-07-20 at 16:17.
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Old 2011-07-20, 15:35   Link #14923
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
And you think this some are more equal than others appraoch is okay? Ever wondered why the USA is a target of international terror?
In fairness, even without discussing whose life is worth more, the government's job is to look after the interests of its own citizens. I don't remember voting to make the US the world police, and I don't remember paying taxes to them (except for the sales tax when I was there). Do you think your own government will spend more effort to protect foreigners than to protect Germans?
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Old 2011-07-20, 15:48   Link #14924
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
In fairness, even without discussing whose life is worth more, the government's job is to look after the interests of its own citizens. I don't remember voting to make the US the world police, and I don't remember paying taxes to them (except for the sales tax when I was there). Do you think your own government will spend more effort to protect foreigners than to protect Germans?
No, but they are still restricted by a stricter constitution that enforces the basic human rights for all people not just germans. So, technically they play in a completely different league.

But thats not the point, I could have been born in the USA. What then... do I agree with my government... as much as I do not have to agree with the german government a US citizen can disagree with their government.
The real question is, what is my motive... is it a humanitarian one, or am I just another hypocrite?
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Old 2011-07-20, 16:07   Link #14925
Anh_Minh
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I'd say it's not a matter of merely agreeing or disagreeing with your government. It's a matter of feeling betrayed by it or not. (Not that I'm unaware of the fact some people feel betrayed whenever the wrong lizard gets elected, but that's another matter.)
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Old 2011-07-20, 16:12   Link #14926
Kamui4356
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It's worth pointing out that while the operation was ill conceived, it has been moderately successful in its goal. The fact that these guns are showing up in crimes on both sides of the border is proof enough of that. Unfortunately success once again means these guns are showing up in crimes on both sides of the border. Apparently no one pointed out this glaringly obvious problem during the planning.

As for the comparisons to Iran Contra, that's complete and total bullshit. Call me when Obama or at least his top advisors are involved and trying to cover it up, the purpose of selling the guns was to actually support the cartels, and the money for them was made by secretly selling weapons to a regime the US government had an arms embargo against.

Though I can't fully blame the selling weapons to Iran thing. They were in a war with another country we were supplying weapons to at the time. Nothing wrong with selling to both sides as long as you don't get caught. Capitalism, ho!
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Old 2011-07-20, 16:18   Link #14927
Xellos-_^
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Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
Though I can't fully blame the selling weapons to Iran thing. They were in a war with another country we were supplying weapons to at the time. Nothing wrong with selling to both sides as long as you don't get caught. Capitalism, ho!
There were rumors the sale of weapons to Iran was a payback by the Regan admin to Iran for not releasing the hostages during Carters term. Which help secure Regan's election.
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Old 2011-07-20, 17:29   Link #14928
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I would think it was more to fulfill several contractual obligations to the companies that had invested in Iran before 1979. Iran is the only country the US supplied F-14 fighters and Pheonix missiles to go with them. We did keep the four new Kidd-class destroyers we built for them...I believe we just sold those to Taiwan (they had the good air conditioning systems)
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Old 2011-07-20, 18:49   Link #14929
ganbaru
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U.N. declares famine in pockets of southern Somalia
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...76J28820110720
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Old 2011-07-20, 20:28   Link #14930
justinstrife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
As for the comparisons to Iran Contra, that's complete and total bullshit. Call me when Obama or at least his top advisors are involved and trying to cover it up, the purpose of selling the guns was to actually support the cartels, and the money for them was made by secretly selling weapons to a regime the US government had an arms embargo against.
Why would they need to, when the majority of news media would be covering it up for them?
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Old 2011-07-20, 20:33   Link #14931
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
^None of this is an actual reflection on Obama. The Bureau of Alcohol et al is responsible, not Obama.
I agree, and I said as much above.
However, his administration is responsible for this current BATFE debacle.

Quote:
This is not like the Iran-Contra affair where top advisors to Reagan, and possibly even Reagan, was involved in the illegal sale of firearms to non-allies in order to fund terrorist. This is a mistake. A stupid tragic mistake that has cost innocent lives (and a few American lives), but a mistake none the less. Whether BATFE should be abolished is an interesting question, but it is a question seperate from your article which lays the blame at Obama's feet rather than at the head of BATFE.
But it's one of a long line of stupid mistakes by BATFE under numerous administrations both Republican and Democrat and that was MY point.
While the IBD article pins this on the Obama administration and considers it equal to Iran-Contra, my point in posting it was that this story is significant yet it's not being given the media coverage it deserves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
1. Al Qaeda did not start the rebellion against Gaddifay. Saying AL Qaeda supports the Libyan rebels makes the Libyan rebel the same as the Contra is like saying since Muslim brotherhood supported the Egyptian uprising then the Egyptian uprising supports terrorism. You are stretching this so thin you can see through it.
Grasp at a few straws why don't you.

The situation between what is happening in Mexico and what happened in Nicaragua are very similar, as is what is happening in Libya.

The difference lay in what the goals of the rebels are verses the goals of the drug cartels.


Quote:
2. Obama has not to my knowledge say "I can't remember" regarding this matter

3. To my knowledge no one in the Obama administration has been try and convicted of lying to congress over this matter.

4. You forgot to mention the Iran-Contra affair has 2 parts. Support for the Contra and Selling Arms to Iran. How much do you want to bet that some of those arm that were sold to Iran eventually made their way to terrorist group that were used kill Americans?
Since the investigation into this BATFE affair has only just begun your number 2 and 3 points are moot.
We have to see how far this will go first.
Your fourth point is unprovable either way so it also is moot and has no relevence to this conversation.
It can just as easily be said that no Americans were killed with those weapons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post


I think you are mixing something up here. Idealism + patriotism + propaganda != real politcs. The people in Nicaragua and Iran were just strategic investment - a little cruel, but with the intention of securing the US-american influence in the region.*SNIP*
I'm well aware of what the Iran-Contra affair was about, I was in high school when it happened.
I don't need a refresher course on it.
Besides your post is straying off the topic.
The topic is that the BATFE under the Obama administration is engaged in the illegal sale of weapons to foreign criminals.
That is how it relates to the Contra affair, the sales that Reagan authorized were ILLEGAL (and yes I believe Reagan knew about it), and so are these sales done by the BATFE.
The only question now is how far up the political ladder of the Obama administration does knowledge of this go?
Did Obama know?
That will have to be answered by whatever investigators get the job of tackling this mess.

Quote:
So whats Al Qaida and the Taliban then? If they are criminals was never an issue for US policies. The only important thing is that the fighters are directly or indirectly supporting american interests. Freedom fighters, haha...
By that definition ALL rebel forces are terrorists/criminals.
If that's how you feel that's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that what the BATFE has been doing is illegal.

They have violated the Arms Export Control Act of 1976 and there is no excuse for it.
This is not some trivial thing.

Quote:
The only thing that bugs you is that this agency was operating so closely to the US border. And their screwing up (which is not uncommon for US agency's foreign aproaches - see Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan) has consequences that actually touch the USA. While this is not new (see 9/11), it is admittedly undesirable. But I have this feeling you are against this agency for the completely wrong reasons (your egomanical ones).
Wrong Jinto, the thing that is bugging me is that the BATFE has once again trounced on American law for their own agency's gain and was clearly trying to blame the sales of US guns on the American people by claiming the guns the Mexican officials were seizing from the drug dealers came from civilian US suppliers.
BATFE is supposed to PROTECT US citizens not use them as scapegoats.
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Old 2011-07-20, 20:56   Link #14932
Vexx
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Quote:
BATFE is supposed to PROTECT US citizens not use them as scapegoats.
Maybe... they were formed during Prohibition. Throughout their history, they create their need to exist by targeting US citizens. Their litany of screwups and disasters make the FBI look good
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Old 2011-07-21, 01:02   Link #14933
Tiberium Wolf
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Former NFL players: League concealed concussion risks

WTH!? These pricks earn millions and now that it hurts they still want more. Are they so dumb that they don't have common-sense? Did they believe that head-bumping was actually safe?
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Old 2011-07-21, 01:12   Link #14934
Ascaloth
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Originally Posted by Tiberium Wolf View Post
Former NFL players: League concealed concussion risks

WTH!? These pricks earn millions and now that it hurts they still want more. Are they so dumb that they don't have common-sense? Did they believe that head-bumping was actually safe?
Well, they did choose to bump heads as a career to begin with, so...

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Old 2011-07-21, 02:34   Link #14935
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
...
Wrong Jinto, the thing that is bugging me is that the BATFE has once again trounced on American law for their own agency's gain and was clearly trying to blame the sales of US guns on the American people by claiming the guns the Mexican officials were seizing from the drug dealers came from civilian US suppliers.
BATFE is supposed to PROTECT US citizens not use them as scapegoats.
And all I was trying to imply is, that you would have given a damn, if the CIA did the exact same thing in Afghanistan! The only difference is, that in Afgahnistan not the american people are at the receiving end but the afghan people (in the end it had repercussions for the USA too, but I cannot remember you complaining about the CIA then).
So all I am saying is that I have sympathy for your resistance to the BATFE but no sympathy for your selfish motives. And the off-topic-ness was neccessary to give you some historical background knowledge, so that you know what I am refering to in this post.
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Old 2011-07-21, 03:13   Link #14936
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
And all I was trying to imply is, that you would have given a damn, if the CIA did the exact same thing in Afghanistan! The only difference is, that in Afgahnistan not the american people are at the receiving end but the afghan people (in the end it had repercussions for the USA too, but I cannot remember you complaining about the CIA then).
Well yeah, I wasn't here at animesuki back then.
If I had been then I would have posted this picture of CIA operative Zbigniew Brzezinski and Tony Osmo (Osama Bin Laden) in Afghanistan sometime in the late 1980s.
This picture originally came out of the 1990 end-of-year issue of Soldier of Fortune magazine.



But remember, the official line out of the Bush admn is that the CIA did not create Al Qaeda or train Osama Bin Ladin.
That's a conspiracy theory and you shouldn't pay any attention to all the photos from the 80s of CIA men training Osama.
It's like the Enquirer, it was matted in...or something.
You know Jinto, it really amazes me how stupid the US government thinks we all are...but I digress.

Quote:
So all I am saying is that I have sympathy for your resistance to the BATFE but no sympathy for your selfish motives. And the off-topic-ness was neccessary to give you some historical background knowledge, so that you know what I am refering to in this post.
My motives are only selfish in that I feel helpless to do anything about it, and thus like all other Americans (or most other) I sit on my arse and bitch about it instead of actually doing something about it.
The ATF is only one of the worst agencies of the US government, but not the only one.
Empire certainly has its price, and I for one don't think it was worth it.
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Old 2011-07-21, 06:21   Link #14937
ganbaru
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Loyalist troops besiege Damascus suburb after protests
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...76J48W20110721
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Old 2011-07-21, 09:18   Link #14938
Saleh
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Indian Government Blocks Leading File-Sharing Services

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Originally Posted by Torrent Freak
Indian Government Blocks Leading File-Sharing Services
According to growing reports coming out of India, users of several large Internet service providers can no longer access some of the world’s largest file-hosting sites. On apparent order from the Indian government, RapidShare, MegaUpload, MediaFile, HotFile and many more are all being blocked at the ISP level.
Amusingly, world's anti-piracy enforcement takes another step.
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Old 2011-07-21, 11:16   Link #14939
TinyRedLeaf
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Tokyo (July 21, Thu): A Japanese man has been sentenced to life in jail for the rape and murder of a British teacher found dead in a sand-filled bathtub in 2007.

Tatsuya Ichihashi, 32, admitted killing Miss Lindsay Hawker, 22, from Brandon, near Coventry, at his home close to Tokyo, but had denied her murder. He also admitted raping the English teacher, but said he tried to revive her after accidentally suffocating her.

Miss Hawker's parents said they felt they had got justice. Her father, Bill, told journalists: "We've waited 4½ years to get justice for Lindsay. We have achieved that today."

Referring to the Japanese authorities, he added: "Lindsay loved Japan, and you have not let her down."

Miss Hawker was last seen alive after giving her killer an English lesson in a coffee shop on March 25, 2007.

Ichihashi, who went on the run, published a book in which he confessed to the killing and described how he had cosmetic surgery to change his appearance — including cutting his own lip and removing moles from his face.

His attempts to change his appearance eventually led to his arrest after staff at a clinic where he had surgery on his nose became suspicious and reported him to police.

Miss Hawker travelled to Japan in October 2006 to teach English with the Nova language school. The Leeds University graduate was found dead at Ichihashi's apartment in Ichikawa City, east of Tokyo, less than six months later.

Ichihashi disappeared after the Japanese police discovered the teacher's battered-and-bound body buried naked in the bathtub on the balcony of his flat. He was arrested at a ferry terminal in the city of Osaka, in western Japan in November 2009.

On July 4 this year, he told his trial that he enticed Miss Hawker into his apartment, raped her and then strangled her because he feared neighbours would hear her screams and call the police.

He claimed he could not remember strangling her.

BBC NEWS


Quote:
Toda (July 20, Wed): As jackets go it looks far from fashionable, but its Japanese maker cannot meet sky-rocketing demand for "air conditioned" coats with built-in fans.

Kuchofuku Co Ltd — its name literally means "air-conditioned clothing" — has seen orders soar amid power shortages in Japan after the devastating March 11 earthquake and tsunami.

As parts of the nation sweat out an uncomfortable summer shackled by restrictions on electricity use, demand has grown for goods that provide guilt-free respite from the unrelenting summer heat.

Two electric fans in the jacket can be controlled to draw air in at different speeds, giving the garment a puffed-up look. But this has not deterred those happy to be cool rather than "hot" when it comes to fashion.

A standard air-conditioned jacket sells for around 11,000 yen (US$140), with others priced higher.

AFP

Last edited by TinyRedLeaf; 2011-07-21 at 11:32.
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Old 2011-07-21, 12:42   Link #14940
synaesthetic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saleh View Post
Indian Government Blocks Leading File-Sharing Services



Amusingly, world's anti-piracy enforcement takes another step.
Pretty sure this is less for anti-piracy and more for anti-freedom-of-speech.
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